US to hand over ports to Middle Eastern Company

[FedCop]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush on Tuesday defended a deal that would let a United Arab Emirates-based company run some key U.S. seaports, telling reporters that he would veto any bill to hold up the agreement.

Bush, who has yet to veto a bill during his administration, warned that the United States is sending "mixed signals" by attacking a Middle Eastern company after the ports were run by a British firm for several years.

Lawmakers who have called for the deal to be blocked need to "step up and explain why a Middle Eastern company is held to a different standard," he said.

Among the lawmakers from both parties threatening to hold up the deal is Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. (Watch how both parties are teaming up against Bush -- 1:14)

"If the administration cannot delay the process, I plan on introducing legislation to ensure that the deal is placed on hold until this decision gets a more thorough review," Frist, a Tennessee Republican, said.

The administration has faced criticism this week over its decision to let a subsidiary of UAE government-controlled maritime management firm Dubai Ports World run ports in New York and New Jersey; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Baltimore, Maryland; Miami, Florida; and New Orleans, Louisiana. (See where the ports are)

Critics say the takeover raises security concerns, noting that two of the hijackers in the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington came from the UAE and that the hijackers drew funds from bank accounts in Dubai, the financial center of the Persian Gulf.

But a port security expert said security fears are based on "bigotry" against Arabs.

"This whole notion that Dubai is going to control or set standards for U.S. ports is a canard," said Kim Petersen, head of SeaSecure, a U.S.-based maritime security company, and executive director of the Maritime Security Council, which represents 70 percent of the world's ocean shipping.

The agreement is scheduled to take effect March 2. It was approved by the federal Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States, which includes representatives of the FBI, Pentagon and Treasury, Commerce and Homeland Security departments.

Dubai Ports World recently acquired the British-based firm that currently directs commercial operations at those ports, Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation. The takeover by Dubai Ports World means that it will be in charge of those operations.

"I don't understand why it's OK for a British company to operate our ports but not a company from the Middle East when we've already determined security is not an issue," Bush told reporters aboard Air Force One after Frist urged the administration to block the deal.

The Bush administration argues the deal was properly approved and poses no security threat. Administration officials are scheduled to discuss the sale Thursday with the Senate Armed Services Committee, said the committee's chairman, Sen. John Warner, R-Virginia. (Watch what role the UAE plays in the war on terror -- 1:57)

"Nothing in this acquisition has anything to do with the responsibility for security in American ports," State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said. "That remains very firmly in the hands of the Department of Homeland Security. What we're talking about is the management of some port operations."

Of the facilities to be sold, the port in New York and New Jersey is the largest, handling about 4.5 million container units in 2004 and is among the nation's top 10 in terms of containers handled, according to the American Association of Port Authorities.

Miami is the next largest port with about 1 million container units, and Baltimore handled about 558,000 in 2004, the AAPA said.

Ted Bilkey, chief operating officer of Dubai Ports World, and other senior executives are in the United States to brief congressional, government and other officials.

"We followed U.S. law and actually approached the U.S. government for approval of our security arrangement weeks prior to the formal review," Bilkey said. "We will continue to work with the U.S. government in maintaining the highest standards of security at U.S. ports, and will fully cooperate in putting into place whatever is necessary to protect the terminals."

Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, has called for hearings and, "in the meantime, Congress must put an immediate halt to this deal that the administration hastily approved in secret without input from the Congress or state officials."

Rep. Peter King, a Republican from New York and chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, and Sen. Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat, already introduced a bill to put the deal on hold. Democratic Senators Bob Menendez of New Jersey and Hillary Clinton of New York are sponsoring a bill that would block the sale of U.S. port operations to foreign governments.

"My office today has received more phone calls on this than any issue in the 14 years I've been in the United States Congress, and every one of them is in support of what Senator Schumer and I are doing," King said.

Ereli said Homeland Security officials have had good relations with Dubai Ports World, and he said the United States has a "strong and effective partnership" with the UAE "from a counterterrorism point of view."

But Sen. Susan Collins, a Maine Republican and the chairwoman of the Senate Government Affairs and Homeland Security Committee, said that "although the UAE is an ally in the war on terrorism, the country has historically been used as a base of terrorist operations and financing," she said.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FedCop]

But a port security expert said security fears are based on "bigotry" against Arabs.

Nope, it is based up "bigotry" of terrorist who happen to be Arabs!

Did we hand over sensitive security issues to the Japanese in WWII? Hell no, we didn't even allow the enemy to walk amongst us. What the hell is wrong with detention camps!

This G-D touchy feely stuff isn't going to feely so good when they nuke us because we wanted to be PC and trust them! This contract was given to a British company, which is BS too, but it should be void if transfered or sold!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FedCop]

bold text taken in part from a CBS 60 minutes transcript:

[B]We can no longer ignore the worst-case scenario of a nuclear terrorist attack on an American city. Osama bin Laden has made it clear he wants to obtain nuclear weapons and use them against us.

The 9/11 Commission considers such an attack the No. 1 threat today, not because it

[Alesha]

[QUOTE=FedCop]bold text taken in part from a CBS 60 minutes transcript:

[B]We can no longer ignore the worst-case scenario of a nuclear terrorist attack on an American city. Osama bin Laden has made it clear he wants to obtain nuclear weapons and use them against us.

The 9/11 Commission considers such an attack the No. 1 threat today, not because it

[RedRaider911]

Honestly this is a none issue. This company would only provide the normal operations of a port. Security would still fall to port police, ICE, and the other fed agencies that are currently responsible for port security. The way in which cargo is inspected would constinue, etc.
Just because a company is owned by arabs does not mean that every employee will be arab as well. It just means the headquarters of the company is in an arab company. Big deal. This is no different then any foriegn company that happens to have operations within the US.
And, yes, I do believe that the majority of the reaction to this is based on bigotry, and racisim. But thats just my opinion on the matter.

[NavyCop]

deleted due to repost.

[NavyCop]

Hell no, we didn't even allow the enemy to walk amongst us. What the hell is wrong with detention camps!


You can't be serious. You really need to be told what is wrong with detention camps? Either you are a racist or you're ignorant of history and what really happened.

[rmedon]

Ted Bilkey, chief operating officer of Dubai Ports World, and other senior executives are in the United States to brief congressional, government and other officials.

"We followed U.S. law and actually approached the U.S. government for approval of our security arrangement weeks prior to the formal review," Bilkey said. "We will continue to work with the U.S. government in maintaining the highest standards of security at U.S. ports, and will fully cooperate in putting into place whatever is necessary to protect the terminals."

:

But Dubai Ports World would not have any part in the ports' security? Huh.
What are we thinking?

[Firebug]

What you all really should be angry with is how little port security there ever was. The reality is it no better now then it was before 9/11. All the security arrangements that the port manangement company has is over what contract security guards are going to be at the gates. They don't effect any government security arrangements which don't amount to much anyway.

FB

[nacorbier]

Big question is, how much presence is there by USCG, Federal Protective Service, and other federal LE agencies at these ports? I worked on a port of entry contract once, including developing the security plan.

The biggest thing the city was concerned with was that their "port security officers" would make more money than the contract guards, and that they would be "over them." Oh, and that they didn't have to wear the contract guard uniform - because the port officers liked BDUs.

We'd see a USCG inspection team about once a month. They'd ride up in a GSA plated truck. THEY were at least trying. (We almost shot one who tried to ram the gate.) Never saw US Customs, nor FPS or ICE (Border Entry Point).

I've seen more USCG inspection at a petrochemical refinery and distribution point.

[lazycop]

Dubai Ports World seems to be a pretty hard core company. Will probably do a better job managing the ports than anyone else. It's what they do.





Maybe we should'nt let americans run flight training schools since the terrorists were trained at US run schools. Makes as much sense.

[pvtbuddie]

From what I could find, the UAE is our friend; I'm sure some of it's citizens are not.

The UK, as a modern and free country, has to be nicer to suspected moles.

Most of us would like to have detailed for us: 1. The security checks made before this was OKed 2. the security policies of this company.

It should have been assumed that we would be doubly concerned about this.

[nitromt]

Honestly this is a none issue. This company would only provide the normal operations of a port. Security would still fall to port police, ICE, and the other fed agencies that are currently responsible for port security. The way in which cargo is inspected would constinue, etc.
Just because a company is owned by arabs does not mean that every employee will be arab as well. It just means the headquarters of the company is in an arab company. Big deal. This is no different then any foriegn company that happens to have operations within the US.
And, yes, I do believe that the majority of the reaction to this is based on bigotry, and racisim. But thats just my opinion on the matter.

I agree. But even if a majority of the employees are Arab, what are you suggesting? Unless someone can find a credible reason, not just a blanket racist preference, that relates to terrorism, then denying Dubai Ports is just a racist move.

Security at these ports would not be any different if a non-Arab company had purchased the ports according to the commissions that are set up to assess homeland security.

[RedRaider911]

I agree. But even if a majority of the employees are Arab, what are you suggesting? Unless someone can find a credible reason, not just a blanket racist preference, that relates to terrorism, then denying Dubai Ports is just a racist move.

Security at these ports would not be any different if a non-Arab company had purchased the ports according to the commissions that are set up to assess homeland security.

I wasn't suggesting anything. Reading that again I see how it can be read as you did. Sorry for the confusion. I was simply saying that the location of a company who owns the port operations does not dictate the type of person who works there. I used the arab example since everyone seems to be equating arab with terrorist.

[rich75]

[QUOTE=FedCop]

Nope, it is based up "bigotry" of terrorist who happen to be Arabs!

I have to disagree with you on saying that terrorist are Arab; some are American.

[hounddog]

[QUOTE=rich75]I have to disagree with you on saying that terrorist are Arab; some are American.

The vast majority of terrorists in the world are Arab. It is a fact, no matter how you wish to argue that.

[rich75]

[QUOTE=rich75]

The vast majority of terrorists in the world are Arab. It is a fact, no matter how you wish to argue that.

The vast majority are Muslim. Not going to argue it but we can't just look at Arabs as a threat b/c if we do that then we coupld possibly be letting our gaurd down.

[tony.o]

Some of you need to go look the word racism up. No one dislikes individuals because they are of arab decent, it's their culture, and I don't blame people for not wanting those people here in large numbers.

[rich75]

America has become more racist since 9/11 and the media isn't helping the situation.

[rmedon]

I don't like the idea of any other country controlling US ports.

[cst.sb]

The vast majority are Muslim.

How can you say that about the religion of peace!!! Well, anyway it's all in the Koran (http://www.glumbert.com/media/koran.html)

[rich75]

How can you say that about the religion of peace!!! Well, anyway it's all in the Koran (http://www.glumbert.com/media/koran.html)
LoL, thats a good video.

[cst.sb]

LoL, thats a good video.

The first time I watched in I laughed, now I just cry!!! :p

[BrickCop]

America has become more racist since 9/11 and the media isn't helping the situation.


Become more Racist or more intelligent?

America was attacked on 9/11 by Muslim Terrorists The UAE does not recognize Israel, you will not be allowed in the UAE if your passpaort reflects that you've been to Israel. The 9/11 report shows a link to Al-Q funding and at least one major bank institution in the UAE...

The US (echoing the wise words of Winston Churchill) does not have allies, only interests. Saudi Arabia is a huge "ally" but all but two of the 9/11 Terrorists were Saudis. I would not want them or the UAE to have ANYTHING to do with our National (port) Security. If there is even a possibility of the Al-Q infiltrating the company it is NOT worth the risk.

The lives and security of the US people should be given priority over a backwards Muslim country with an inability or unwillingness to weed out the fanatics. I frankly do not trust them with any info relative to the inner workings of US ports. Granted they could probably find out what they want over the net but I don't think we should make it easier for potential Muslim Terrorists.

Some call it racism I call it common sense. If the UAE cannot understand our concerns well, too bad- so sad. We shouldn't risk our safety to give them a hug.

[nitromt]

Become more Racist or more intelligent?

America was attacked on 9/11 by Muslim Terrorists The UAE does not recognize Israel, you will not be allowed in the UAE if your passpaort reflects that you've been to Israel. The 9/11 report shows a link to Al-Q funding and at least one major bank institution in the UAE...

The US (echoing the wise words of Winston Churchill) does not have allies, only interests. Saudi Arabia is a huge "ally" but all but two of the 9/11 Terrorists were Saudis. I would not want them or the UAE to have ANYTHING to do with our National (port) Security. If there is even a possibility of the Al-Q infiltrating the company it is NOT worth the risk.

The lives and security of the US people should be given priority over a backwards Muslim country with an inability or unwillingness to weed out the fanatics. I frankly do not trust them with any info relative to the inner workings of US ports. Granted they could probably find out what they want over the net but I don't think we should make it easier for potential Muslim Terrorists.

Some call it racism I call it common sense. If the UAE cannot understand our concerns well, too bad- so sad. We shouldn't risk our safety to give them a hug.

In your post, you have given no shred of evidence that UAE company is anymore dangerous than a non-Middle Eastern company operating the ports. Apparently, people who are familiar with port security such as many federal agencies believe it is safe to do so. Are you saying that they are incorrect and you are right? Based on what such evidence?

[BrickCop]

In your post, you have given no shred of evidence that UAE company is anymore dangerous than a non-Middle Eastern company operating the ports. Apparently, people who are familiar with port security such as many federal agencies believe it is safe to do so. Are you saying that they are incorrect and you are right? Based on what such evidence?


The specific UAE company is based in a country that the 9/11 commission identified as having banking institutions that financed Al-Quaeda. How's that for a shred of evidence? Or are you naive enough to believe the company operates in a vacum? This government has an openly hostile policy toward Israel, yeah they're real tolerant of non Muslims. :rolleyes:

Cite the "many Federal" agencies? Oh sure I'd expect them to publicly disagree with their boss clueless George who is all for this business transaction. :rolleyes:

And to answer your question....

If I am wrong in opposing the deal the worst that can happen is that we'll hurt a country's feelings (yawn).

If you are wrong about supporting the deal the worst that can happen is that Muslim Terrorists will compromise US Port security.

Apologies that I don't share your faith that a company based in a backwards Muslim country will make the safety of the American people a top priority.

[RedRaider911]

Apologies that I don't share your faith that a company based in a backwards Muslim country will make the safety of the American people a top priority.

The term "Backwards muslim". Makes a good case for the argument of racisim.

[cst.sb]

The term "Backwards muslim". Makes a good case for the argument of racisim.

Sorry to be the one to educate you here, but an pseudo political/religious, violent, patriarchal, ideology is hardly a "race". There are muslims are reflected in every race from caucasian to arab. So, go somewhere else with the racism BS.

The issue with the muslim worlds is that, as much as, they can come together to protest over "cartoons", you'll never see them collectively protest against terrorism and violence against Israel and the west.

Where have the mass muslim demonstrations been in response to violence such as:

- 9/11 (opps bad example is some countries they danced in the streets praising Osama)
- 4300+ Islamic Terrorist Attacks post 9/11
- rapes
- Beheadings
- Kidnappings
- suicide bombings
- Illegal Arrests and impersonments. (such as the brits and canadian arrested in Saudi Arabia and blamed for internal terrorist bombing - can't arrest a muslim so pick an ex-pat!)
- Burning of churches (Since the cartoons, no less then 30 chruches have been burned. Ah, the reiligion of peace and tolerance.)
- Voting in terrorist government officials and parties - Iran, Egypt, and in the PA (Hamas).

As for your local US muslims, the Council on American Islamic Relations's (CAIR US) spokes person Ibrahim Hooper recently stated on PBS that his group of do-goders would circumvent US Anti Terror laws to provide funding for a Hamas led government. (And in case you didn't know, Hamas has not changed it's stance one bit on terrorism, and is using it's vote into power to claim that terrorism plays a legitimate role in this conflict)

So, RedRaider911 just curious to know who you think the racist are again?

[BrickCop]

Ah yes the one size fits all RACIST! volley. If you can't win on the facts cry racist and claim moral superiority:rolleyes:

redraider-

Backwards is an accurate adjective. Or do you consider a country that treats it's women like second class citizens, won't trecognize the existence of Israel, spawned 2 of the 9/11 Terrorists and finacially supported said terrorists to be forward thinking and progressive? :confused:

[mikeinchitown]

Become more Racist or more intelligent?

Some call it racism I call it common sense. If the UAE cannot understand our concerns well, too bad- so sad. We shouldn't risk our safety to give them a hug.

I'm with Brick on this one, it is too much of a risk. We need to protect this country, even if some people think it is racism, who cares?

We should make Israel run the ports for free for all the times we risk our neck saving their asses.

[cst.sb]

We should make Israel run the ports.

Actually, that would be an excellant idea. If they handle their ports the same way they handle their airports we wouldn't have a worry in the world!!

Though, the gangs and civil liberities unions wouldn't be to happy!

[mikeinchitown]

Though, the gangs and civil liberities unions wouldn't be to happy!


Yeah, no matter what happens, someone will be ****ed off. We need to do it in a way so that the loss of life is at a minimum. So what if we hurt someones feelings.

[RedRaider911]

Ah yes the one size fits all RACIST! volley. If you can't win on the facts cry racist and claim moral superiority:rolleyes:

redraider-

Backwards is an accurate adjective. Or do you consider a country that treats it's women like second class citizens, won't trecognize the existence of Israel, spawned 2 of the 9/11 Terrorists and finacially supported said terrorists to be forward thinking and progressive? :confused:

Just because I notice prejudice in the responses on this does not mean that I am just "crying racism". This is just what I feel about many responses on this topic (see my original post). I am not mentioning this because I "can't win". What is there to win? It is a discussion on the internet, I gave my opinion, and others gave theirs. I feel no need to "win" the argument. I just enjoy a good debate. If you feel the need to brush off my opinion because you disagree then by all means do so, but don't accuse me of trying to get out the easy way simply because you disagree with what I stated. NOW ON WITH THE SHOW...


If this is what you mean by the term Backwards then say so. My objection is not to the description you feel the need to use. (even if i don't always agree). My objection was simply to using "Backwards" in such a way.

The term backwards was also used to describe the africans who didn't seem grateful for the education the wonderful europeans where bringing to them.

Let me clarify that at no point did I say these horrible actions don't happen. I originally responded to this thread because I felt that the port deal was not a threat to US security. Some how, through constant back and forth, I am being made to appear as if I denied that any attrocities in the Middle East have ever happened. Since my original point of response has been lost, I will just remove myself from this argument.

[BrickCop]

Just because I notice prejudice in the responses on this does not mean that I am just "crying racism". This is just what I feel about many responses on this topic (see my original post). I am not mentioning this because I "can't win". What is there to win? It is a discussion on the internet, I gave my opinion, and others gave theirs. I feel no need to "win" the argument. I just enjoy a good debate. If you feel the need to brush off my opinion because you disagree then by all means do so, but don't accuse me of trying to get out the easy way simply because you disagree with what I stated. NOW ON WITH THE SHOW...


If this is what you mean by the term Backwards then say so. My objection is not to the description you feel the need to use. (even if i don't always agree). My objection was simply to using "Backwards" in such a way.

The term backwards was also used to describe the africans who didn't seem grateful for the education the wonderful europeans where bringing to them.

Let me clarify that at no point did I say these horrible actions don't happen. I originally responded to this thread because I felt that the port deal was not a threat to US security. Some how, through constant back and forth, I am being made to appear as if I denied that any attrocities in the Middle East have ever happened. Since my original point of response has been lost, I will just remove myself from this argument.

So among all those words is there agreement that the term 'backwards' is wholly accurate? If not what PC term would you use to describe it? Perhaps "culturally challenged"? :rolleyes:

I have no position one way or the other about you not participating in this discussion as it were. I do find it curious that you would do so in lieu of the fact you enjoy a good debate.

I have no problem saying I am prejudiced toward what is in the best interest of US National Security. I am not willing to compromise it to be politically correct.

[cst.sb]

If this is what you mean by the term Backwards then say so. My objection is not to the description you feel the need to use. (even if i don't always agree). My objection was simply to using "Backwards" in such a way.

The term backwards was also used to describe the africans who didn't seem grateful for the education the wonderful europeans where bringing to them.



I for one thought Brick's use of the term "backwards" was a little to kind!

And there is a huge difference between racist historical use of the word "backwards" in the context that you used - "The term backwards was also used to describe the africans who didn't seem grateful for the education the wonderful europeans where bringing to them."

And the "Backwards" muslim populations, such as in pakistan where people still live in mud brick buildings and honour killing women is still socially acceptable. In my world, that's considered "backwards" and then some..

[cst.sb]

So among all those words is there agreement that the term 'backwards' is wholly accurate? If not what PC term would you use to describe it? Perhaps "culturally challenged"? :rolleyes:

I have no position one way or the other about you not participating in this discussion as it were. I do find it curious that you would do so in lieu of the fact you enjoy a good debate.

I have no problem saying I am prejudiced toward what is in the best interest of US National Security. I am not willing to compromise it to be politically correct.

A few weeks ago I watched an interview with Solomon Rushdie. He said, that political correctness is a form of censorship that is governed by social elitists.

And he's right. There is a major difference between spewing hate and having a dialogue about real life issues.

[nacorbier]

Don't the British already run our ports? British owned company, etc. So, "keeping it in the US" is a little late.

As far as the UAE running it... Bush has committed political suicide on this.

[Dolmen]

Don't the British already run our ports? British owned company, etc. So, "keeping it in the US" is a little late.
Exactly, if you didn't want a foreign country to run your ports you probably shouldn't have sold them in the first place. The ports are being run by P&O, a British shipping company, which has, as I understand it, recently become a wholly owned subsidiary of a UAE company.

I also feel it's a little unfair to call the UAE a backwards muslim country (and in fact, despite the name, less than half the country is actually Arab), I believe the UAE is on a par with most western countries, certainly they have enough money to buy P&O. I will however go as far as to say that any country run as a theocracy, which, by and large means muslim countries these days (although I guess the Vatican could be counted in there too), generally does not fare nearly so well as other systems of government, the factoid generally bandied about is that the entire combined GDP of the dozen or so *officially* muslim countries (which I don't believe actually includes the UAE, but places like Pakistan, Saudi, Indonesia, etc..) in the world doesn't come close to beating the tenth highest GDP of any individual country.

Also, minor point, the quote "We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and these interests it is our duty to follow" was actually Lord Palmerston, not Winston Churchill, if Churchill did say it, he was paraphrasing :)

[cst.sb]

in fact, despite the name, less than half the country is actually Arab

I will however go as far as to say that any country run as a theocracy, which, by and large means muslim countries these days (although I guess the Vatican could be counted in there too)

You are correct about the 40+% Arab population of the UAE. Although, approximately only 20% of that 40+% is made up of Emirati. The remaining 20+% is made up of Arab and Iranians. And more than 50% of the population is made of non-nation ex-pats (from other Muslim nations).

However, the UAE is still a "Muslim" country (Muslim 96% (Shi'a 16%), Christian, Hindu, and other 4%)

Source - CIA World Factbook

And yes, the Vatican could be count as a theocratic country. However, when was the last time you heard the Pope, or any catholic priest calling for a "Jihad?" The crusades? (which by the way was in response to Muslim aggression.)

Your ports, and our ports, should have never been sold off.

[Dolmen]

However, the UAE is still a "Muslim" country (Muslim 96% (Shi'a 16%), Christian, Hindu, and other 4%)
It is, but it's my understanding that unlike the Islamic Republics of Iran, Pakistan and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the UAE has a rather more progressive legal system than the Sharia courts of the aforementioned countries, it is not a theocracy.
And yes, the Vatican could be count as a theocratic country. However, when was the last time you heard the Pope, or any catholic priest calling for a "Jihad?" The crusades? (which by the way was in response to Muslim aggression.)
That's true, but I don't believe anyone in the government of the UAE has ever called for a jihad either. Now maybe individuals within the UAE have aided Al Quaida, but I think it's pretty safe to say that swiss banks probably have had or do have ties to terrorist organisations, which is not the same as saying the country itself does so.

A large part of the IRA's funding came directly from North America, so even the US can't claim innocence when it comes to funding terrorist operations and yes, the IRA were most definitely terrorists, not nearly as savage as Al Quaida I'll grant you, but planting bombs in tourist destinations with the intent of killing civilians is most definitely an act of terror.
Your ports, and our ports, should have never been sold off.
Agreed, vital infrastructure should be maintained by the federal government (edit: or I guess, government regulated private companies that must remain domestic).

However, don't make the mistake of thinking that all terrorist threats come from external sources, personally I'm far more worried about citizens who support such activities (something I've seen a lot of, being British) than foreign nationals trying to sneak into the country to cause problems.

[cst.sb]

Dolmen, I do agree with almost all of your last post.

The UAE seems to be off the radar. However according to WILL LESTER of the Associated Press - "Critics have cited the UAE's history as an operational and financial base for the hijackers who carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. In addition, they contend the UAE was an important transfer point for shipments of smuggled nuclear components sent to Iran, North Korea and Libya by a Pakistani scientist."

Of three terrorism databases (public) I was only able to find one more UAE terrorist incident, which is highly suspect, considering Canada has had more!

1993 - INDIA. Within three hours in the city of Bombay, 13 bombs exploded around the city. Targeted were the Bombay Stock Exchange, the headquarters of India's airline, and three luxury hotels. At least 317 people died and 1200 were injured. Two main suspects fled to Dubai, UAE. There is evidence that Pakistani Islamic extremists were implicated in the bombings. No one has claimed credit

And you are correct about home grown terrorism! It is a huge problem that I don't believe is being taken serious enough. And one reason is because if it's spoken about the word "Racism" always seems to pop up.

In Montreal, Canada recently a police officer was stabbed and then fatally shot "Muslim" terror suspect he was trying to arrest. The response from MCM, the Montreal Council of Muslims, was to put out a pree release calling the police racist for their unprovoked shooting of a good and pious man! (That just happened to be involved in helping terrorists obtain passports and fake IDs)

As for the IRA, the annual Deaths in Northern Ireland, by 'Status' of Person Killed, August 1969 to December 1995 had a grand total 3181 - less than what Islamic terrorists murdered in 2 hours on 9/11

Source: The EUC's Chief Constable's Annual Reports, 1970 - 1996 (just to be fair the number of deaths is limited to North Ireland)

The question is, whether you want a group of people that have historically hated the west and non-muslims to protect parts of your infastructure?

[Dolmen]

In Montreal, Canada recently a police officer was stabbed and then fatally shot "Muslim" terror suspect he was trying to arrest. The response from MCM, the Montreal Council of Muslims, was to put out a pree release calling the police racist for their unprovoked shooting of a good and pious man! (That just happened to be involved in helping terrorists obtain passports and fake IDs)
I know that feeling, we had a lot of the same kind of nonsense spouted in the UK, in the name of religious freedom certain clerics would essentially incite fanatics (who, like any religion, represent a very minor part of Islam) to commit atrocities.

.. it's not limited to Islam though, already here there's another thread about a guy who was shot after resisting arrest and his father said no matter what, it shouldn't have happened.

Personally I feel that organised religion in general is a problem and the sooner everyone grows out of it, the safer and happier we'll all be, but that's a debate for another place and time.
As for the IRA, the annual Deaths in Northern Ireland, by 'Status' of Person Killed, August 1969 to December 1995 had a grand total 3181 - less than what Islamic terrorists murdered in 2 hours on 9/11

Source: The EUC's Chief Constable's Annual Reports, 1970 - 1996 (just to be fair the number of deaths is limited to North Ireland)
I know that in terms of numbers the two campaigns are about the same (9/11 claimed just under 3000 people), but in terms of effectiveness, I'd still say the IRA were more successful - if your goal is to create terror, then a campaign of numerous widespread bombs is far more effective than a single large scale attack, people in the US still don't really believe it can happen to them, although the media is doing a pretty good job of scaring the crap out of them :rolleyes:

Let's not also forget that the IRA has achieved some of it's goals and has disbanded, the extremist groups like the "Real IRA" and the "Continuity IRA" have found themselves marginalized and lack the support to continue operating effectively. Although countries like to adopt a stance of "we will not negotiate with terrorists" it was actually only once the UK started to talk to and take Sinn Fein seriously that we were able to stop the bombings.
The question is, whether you want a group of people that have historically hated the west and non-muslims to protect parts of your infastructure?
Well, I wouldn't put Al Quaida in charge of the ports, but as has been established, the UAE is not Al Quaida, just as Ireland is not the IRA, it's like asking me if I'd put an Irish company in charge of airport baggage handling.

Import and export security, i.e. what comes into and out of the ports should be the job of the Police and the Coast Guard, not the operating authority for the ports - whether they're run by domestic or foreign corporations, the guards themselves are going to be American aren't they?

What's more, they aren't going to be as effective as government trained agents, much as I appreciate that security guards are doing a tough job, I don't want them to be the only force protecting this country, they're just not equipped to do it.

[nitromt]

Don't the British already run our ports? British owned company, etc. So, "keeping it in the US" is a little late.

As far as the UAE running it... Bush has committed political suicide on this.

I'm not all that sure he's too worried see as how this is his 2nd term and what other position in government would he ever want to serve?

[nitromt]

The specific UAE company is based in a country that the 9/11 commission identified as having banking institutions that financed Al-Quaeda. How's that for a shred of evidence? Or are you naive enough to believe the company operates in a vacum? This government has an openly hostile policy toward Israel, yeah they're real tolerant of non Muslims. :rolleyes:

Cite the "many Federal" agencies? Oh sure I'd expect them to publicly disagree with their boss clueless George who is all for this business transaction. :rolleyes:

And to answer your question....

If I am wrong in opposing the deal the worst that can happen is that we'll hurt a country's feelings (yawn).

If you are wrong about supporting the deal the worst that can happen is that Muslim Terrorists will compromise US Port security.

Apologies that I don't share your faith that a company based in a backwards Muslim country will make the safety of the American people a top priority.

Switzerland probably has banking institutions that financed terrorists. The Cayman Islands probably has banking institutions that financed terrorists. Unfortunately what you don't understand is that terrorist attacks are not a simple matter. In order to successfully accomplish political attack on non-combatants, you need support from many reaches of the globe. It's not a localized or regional problem. Based on your methodology, any country can be "suspected" of supporting terrorists indirectly should not be denied their right of doing business in the United States. For starters, that is probably every single country in the world. But let's not even consider how far the paper trail goes. Let's deal with what other countries in the world would react. Would they possibly ban US businesses from operating in their countries because these 'businesses indirectly" support what they consider an unjust war? GM and Ford are only profitable outside of the United States. Whoops, there goes the auto industry. I can't even imagine the ripple effect of this.

As for Israel, not suggesting anything, but who says Israel was ever the "innocent and righteous country"? You make it out to seem that way. I'm sure Israel is not the "angel" that you would make it out to seem.

If you are wrong, you set a DANGEROUS precedent, one that promotes racism and intolerance. Think of the concentration camps in the United States during WWII. Where did that start?

If I am wrong, then yes, we would have a major problem with port security. But the various Federal agencies have concluded that port security under DP would be the same as any other international corporation operating those ports.

In politics, there are no right answers. In politics, if you play the race card in this situation, you may get headlines, but those won't be in your favor. In the end, this port deal WILL go through UNLESS they can find any evidence that DP is actively engaged in political attacks on non-combatants in the United States (which I doubt is the case).

[tony.o]

I for one thought Brick's use of the term "backwards" was a little to kind!

And there is a huge difference between racist historical use of the word "backwards" in the context that you used - "The term backwards was also used to describe the africans who didn't seem grateful for the education the wonderful europeans where bringing to them."

And the "Backwards" muslim populations, such as in pakistan where people still live in mud brick buildings and honour killing women is still socially acceptable. In my world, that's considered "backwards" and then some..
It's perfectly acceptable to use the word to describe white Americans who live in the south. ;)

[cst.sb]

10/19/73 USA Oakland, CA - Nation of Islam terrorists kidnap a couple and nearly decapitate the man, while raping and leaving the woman for dead.

10/29/73 USA Berkeley, CA - A woman is shot repeatedly in the face by Nation of Islam terrorists.

11/25/73 USA Oakland, CA - A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.

12/11/73 USA Oakland, CA - A man is killed by Nation of Islam terrorists while using a phone booth.

12/13/73 USA Oakland, CA - A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.

12/20/73 USA Oakland, CA - Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.

12/22/73 USA Oakland, CA - Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.

12/24/73 USA Oakland, CA - A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.

1/24/74 USA Oakland, CA - Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.

4/1/74 USA Oakland, CA - A Nation of Islam terrorist shoots at two Salvation Army members, killing a man and injuring a woman.

4/16/74 USA Ingleside, CA - A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.

7/22/80 USA Bethesda, MD - A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.

1/31/90 USA Tuscon, AZ - A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tucscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.

11/5/90 USA New York City, NY - An Israeli activist is stabbed to death by a Muslim attacker at a hotel.

1/25/93 USA Langley, VA - A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.

2/26/93 USA New York, NY - Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.

3/1/94 USA Brooklyn, NY - Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.

3/23/97 USA New York, NY - A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.

10/31/99 USA Near Nantucket - An Egyptian airline pilot runs a planeload of 217 passengers into the water after uttering a Qur'anic prayer.

9/11/01 USA Washington, DC - Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.

9/11/01 USA Shanksville, PA - Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.

9/11/01 USA New York, NY - Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.

7/4/02 USA Los Angeles, CA - Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.

9/5/02 USA Clinton, MD - A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.

9/21/02 USA Montgomery, AL - Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.

9/23/02 USA Baton Rouge, LA - A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.

10/2/02 USA Wheaton, MD - Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.

10/3/02 USA Montgomery County, MD - Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.

10/4/02 USA Fredericksburg, VA - A woman is killed by Muslim snipers while loading her minivan in a craft store parking lot.

10/9/02 USA Manassas, VA - A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.

10/11/02 USA Fredericksburg, VA - Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.

10/14/02 USA Arlington, VA - A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.

10/22/02 USA Aspen Hill, MD - A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.

8/6/03 USA Houston, TX - After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.

4/13/04 USA Raleigh, NC - A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.

4/15/04 USA Scottsville, NY - In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.

4300+ Attacks in 60 countries post 9/11, yet where is the media coverage?

[pvtbuddie]

STOP
Counting Nation Of Islam as Muslim is like counting Aryan Nations as Christians.
It's not fair, and it's not a valid argument.

[Dolmen]

4300+ Attacks in 60 countries post 9/11, yet where is the media coverage?
How many people have been killed in the USA by drunk drivers since 9/11 ?

[tony.o]

Some groups of people have reputations they deserve. Muslims have definitely earned theirs.

[cst.sb]

STOP
Counting Nation Of Islam as Muslim is like counting Aryan Nations as Christians.
It's not fair, and it's not a valid argument.

It's an absolute valid arguement. Ayran Nations are christian - dumb ***** loser christians!!!!

And according to Elijah Muhammad's official 1965 platform for the Nation of Islam the first four statements read:

1. WE BELIEVE In the One God whose proper Name is Allah.

2. WE BELIEVE in the Holy Qur'an and in the Scriptures of all the Prophets of God.

3. WE BELIEVE in the truth of the Bible, but we believe that it has been tampered with and must be reinterpreted so that mankind will not be snared by the falsehoods that have been added to it.

4. WE BELIEVE in Allah's Prophets and the Scriptures they brought to the people.

Sounds Muslim to me..... if walks like a duck and prays like a duck... I guess it's a duck.

And I am shocked as to why people still want to debate this when Muslims kill more people every year than total amount of people "lynched" in the US from 1885 to present.

How many people have been killed in the USA by drunk drivers since 9/11 ?

Apples and Oranges... would comparing drunk drivers in North Ireland to the IRA be appropriate?

I think I am going to be became a buddhist - I need some inner peace!!!

[Dolmen]

Apples and Oranges... would comparing drunk drivers in North Ireland to the IRA be appropriate?
Well we were talking about media coverage and they will always cover whatever sells rather than what has the biggest impact on our lives.

Having a loved one killed by a drunk driver is a great deal more likely than having one killed by Islamic terrorists, yet most people are far more worried about the latter than the former.

[cst.sb]

Well we were talking about media coverage and they will always cover whatever sells rather than what has the biggest impact on our lives.

Having a loved one killed by a drunk driver is a great deal more likely than having one killed by Islamic terrorists, yet most people are far more worried about the latter than the former.

I'm sorry for your loss Dolmen, I truely am.

As for media coverage on Terrorism, in Canada it's so far off the radar that you'd think there's a conspriacy to hide it from the public.

In BC we didn't findout about the attempt to bring Shari'a Law into Ontario until it was defeated!

I started paying more attention when Raseem the millennium bomber, built his bomb less than 5km from my house.

Again, I am sorry for your loss, and there are so many things we need to be doing better as human beings, and putting an end to drinking and driving is one of them.

[pvtbuddie]

"Ayran Nations are christian"? How?
You can no more simply declare yourself to be of a religion without believing it than your government can pass a law and change your religion.
Since both religions are intended for every one in the world, and both teach that members should embrace all of their fellow adherents as brothers, intentionally segragationist groups can not be counted in either religion, any more than I can call my house a country and me a cop and actually be recognized as such.
But it shouldn't matter to you anyway, since 1. all of your Nation of islam examples are old anyway and 2. you have plenty of better examples.

[RedRaider911]

STOP
Counting Nation Of Islam as Muslim is like counting Aryan Nations as Christians.
It's not fair, and it's not a valid argument.

I am glad someone else noticed.

[nitromt]

Some groups of people have reputations they deserve. Muslims have definitely earned theirs.

I wonder what type of repuation you think Americans have "earned"? I'm sure that a supermajority of the world does not have kind things to say for Americans.

What type of repuations do you think some groups deserve (beyond Muslims)? African Americans? Asian Americans? What "reputations" do you hold of them? Could you please share? This might be interesting. :eek:

[BrickCop]

STOP
Counting Nation Of Islam as Muslim is like counting Aryan Nations as Christians.
It's not fair, and it's not a valid argument.

While this is techinically true there is a bit of a numbers issue here. Sadly every once in awhile a handful Aryan/Nazi low lifes gather to publicly spew their bile in the US and abroad.

Having said that I have yet to see predominantly Christian countries have regular outbreaks where hundreds of thousands Christian extremisits routinely denounce or wish harm upon non- Christian "infidels". OTOH if you turn on the news on any given day you'll routinely see Muslim extremist masses calling for blood over (fill in the blank).

BTW for those who want to "blame" the media:

The media reports on each group's activities. It cannot be dismissed as one sided because they cover the Muslim extremist mass protests which occur on a daily basis.

[Dolmen]

I'm sorry for your loss Dolmen, I truely am.
Um, I think you misread me, thankfully I've had closer experiences with terrorism than drunk driving, I've had bombs planted in my hometown in England when I was at school there.

Fortunately I haven't lost anyone as a result of either action, but thank you all the same :)

[pvtbuddie]

Sadly ... once in awhile...Aryan/Nazi low lifes ... publicly spew their bile in the US and abroad.

... I have yet to see predominantly Christian countries have regular outbreaks where hundreds of thousands ... denounce or wish harm upon non- Christian "infidels".
.

But Muslim countries do not have Nation of Islam extremists doing this.

My real problem, as I said to someone who PMed me last night, is that if we acknowledge Nation of Islam as Muslim, it's only fair to say that Aryan Nations is Christian.
I responded because I find this personally insulting.
More importantly, it is a slander on the name of Christ and can turn people away from Him.

____, if you want to post some/all of my PM, maybe with yours, I don't mind.

But this should get back to the question about a UAE company managing our ports.

[RedRaider911]

Having said that I have yet to see predominantly Christian countries have regular outbreaks where hundreds of thousands Christian extremisits routinely denounce or wish harm upon non- Christian "infidels". OTOH if you turn on the news on any given day you'll routinely see Muslim extremist masses calling for blood over (fill in the blank).



Look at the Civil Wars in the Baltic States following the break-up of the Eastern Block. It definatly went both ways. In fact the more high profile mass killings where done by Christians on Muslims. That is just within the last 20 years.

[BrickCop]

Look at the Civil Wars in the Baltic States following the break-up of the Eastern Block. It definatly went both ways. In fact the more high profile mass killings where done by Christians on Muslims. That is just within the last 20 years.


That is an excellent point although it was relatively isolated from a global perspective whereas rampant Muslim fanaticism seems to fester in the whole Middle East, North Africa, Phillipines, etc...

pvtbuddie,

I understand your point about the distinction with NOI but please don't get me started on Louis "the blue eyed devil was created by aliens" Farrakhan. :D

[cst.sb]

In fact the more high profile mass killings where done by Christians on Muslims. That is just within the last 20 years.

Yeaaaaaaaah! Ummm, sorry to rain on your parade on that one. The muslims ended up in europe due to the violent expansion of the Ottoman Empire and booted the serbs out of Kosovo in the 1400's, and have been violent ever since. The Croats and Albanians (muslims) committed far more atrocities against the Serbs, than the other way around.

Ironically, the first western reporter to actually report the truth about what was going on in the Balkins, was Wall Street Journal Reporter Daniel Pearl, and incase you've forgotten, he was the guy that had his head cut off in Iraq.

Just curious to know if you get your facts from Michael Moore?

[tony.o]

I wonder what type of repuation you think Americans have "earned"? I'm sure that a supermajority of the world does not have kind things to say for Americans.

What type of repuations do you think some groups deserve (beyond Muslims)? African Americans? Asian Americans? What "reputations" do you hold of them? Could you please share? This might be interesting. :eek:
Muslims in this country have done nothing to help public perception of them. They know who the bad apples (possible terrorists) in their community are and they take no action because they have no loyalty to this country only to each other. I'm talking about the recent large group of immigrants from the middle east, not the recent American convert who decided last week that he won't eat pork. All they do is talk about racism and violence against their community. Violence that actually doesn't exist. Well, we already have one group that has worn out the word 'racism', so the new group is about 20 years too late for that to be effective. I don't know why you want to throw Asian Americans into this. They're one of the few groups who do not start bitching and demanding to be accomodated.

[nova2727]

im verry concirned that american will hand over ports to arab countrys.
if this does happen,then they could get guns or worse bombs in the containers,then what.
i dont think america would be a safe place if the ports got handed to an arab country,thats my answer on this.
i think it would be a mistake

[RedRaider911]

My comment was in relation to recent history. Not the 1400's.

Yeaaaaaaaah! Ummm, sorry to rain on your parade on that one. The muslims ended up in europe due to the violent expansion of the Ottoman Empire and booted the serbs out of Kosovo in the 1400's, and have been violent ever since. The Croats and Albanians (muslims) committed far more atrocities against the Serbs, than the other way around.

Ironically, the first western reporter to actually report the truth about what was going on in the Balkins, was Wall Street Journal Reporter Daniel Pearl, and incase you've forgotten, he was the guy that had his head cut off in Iraq.

Just curious to know if you get your facts from Michael Moore?

The following in from Genocide Watch (http://www.gendercide.org/case_bosnia.html) :
Atrocities were committed by all sides and against all sectors of the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995. But the Serb strategy of gender-selective mass executions of non-combatant men was the most severe and systematic atrocity inflicted throughout. The war in Bosnia can thus be considered both a genocide against Bosnia's Muslim population, and a gendercide against Muslim men in particular.

[jerrymaccauley]

There really is no way to approach this topic without an emotional response. There are Arabs, Muslims and terrorists, but they don't all reside in Arab countries. As a matter of fact, the majority of extremist Muslims that we hear about are not from Arab countries. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and Indonesia are not Arab countries. UAE is, but they have become more of an ally to us than communist China, who incidently, operate several west coast ports already.

[NavyCop]

COSCO (China Ocean Shipping Co.) operates terminals in both Los Angeles and Long Beach, California along with a terminal in New Orleans. COSCO is owned 100% by the Red Chinese Army. Further more, COSCO also runs Freeport, Bahamas container port (the largest container port in the world and stopping point for almost 60% of all cargo coming into the United States. COSCO also runs the ports on both ends of the Panama Canal. The United States depends on the Panama Canal and yet its in the hands of the largest Army in the world.

The United States has 361 ports, the US Government since 9/11 has been trying to find out who operates or owns each of these, yet over 200 of them are still unkown. Its believed by the US Government and the global shipping industry that almost 80% of the 361 ports are controlled by foreign businesses or governments.

All this should scare you more than this DP World deal.

[NavyCop]

Also, when people talk about ports, I get the distinct feeling some people don't understand what this means. A port is just the point of entry, not the terminals where ships are loaded and unloaded. The deal the DP World and P&O have is that that DP World would only effect up to 30% of the terminals in each of the six ports. (for example, DP World would only be running 2 of the 14 terminals in Baltimore)

As for security fears, here is an interesting fact. Since 9/11, the US Government has deals in the have US Agents in 42 major foreign ports scanning and inspecting containers BEFORE they get to the United States. The UAE is the first and only middle eastern company to allow this to happen in their port.

Another thing to chew on, if the state owned Dubai Ports World did not win the bidding war for P&O Ports, the only other contender was the Singapore state owned company called Temasek. So either way, the six ports in the US would be run by a foreign company.

[frank]

I just have one thought about that subject.OK! They may not all be terrorists...but what if.... say down the road, sometime with all this war stuff going on,some character gets into working with these guys who are taking over our ports and decides he's going to do havoc to are world and secretly starts a transportation of explosive products or anything that could cause our USA harm. What if Ben Laden gets into this some how? A person can come up with a lot of questionable thoughts and I see some of you are thinking the same thing I am. It's like the Mexico boarders...Some get in some don't.So that leaves us in a pickle no-matter what we do and war is not going to make it better.What if they use it to transport stuff to where they are making items to get at us?It's a 2 way Dbl barrel smoking gun problem, looking you in the face down the line, if you ask me.In respect to those who are good honest people, not all are bad and I know that. It is the bad guy's that worry me. :eek: Next! We will hear more of their country in the news and see them on the waves ,in T.V./Movies and then start hearing Iran/Irac radio ......
Thats where Benny :eek: will intervene on us.......
It's called taking control of us! :(

Did they ever say, what we are getting in return for this proposition?

[cst.sb]

My comment was in relation to recent history. Not the 1400's..

You can make a sound judgement on a region without knowing the history first.

Second, those numbers are highly disputed at this time, but what's not disputed is the fact all three sides were involved in so called "ethnic cleansing". And the "raping" wasn't limited to one side or the other.

A good friend of mine was serving in the Medak Pocket in September, 1993. The Medak Pocket was a serbian enclave that held four small serbian villiages that the Croats ethnicly cleansed. They just didn't kill the people there but they raped, totured, mutilated the bodies, and killed everything thing in the area. Except the Canadian soildiers that dug in and fought. Many of them had wrapped their blue UN helmets with their t-shirts to "green" them up. This Canadian biggest firefight since helping our US brethern in Korea.

And it was covered up for years, because the UN, Canada, Nato, or whoever, didn't want the heat taken off the Serbs as the only "bad guy" in the region.

As the victim of Muslim violence Daniel Pearl pointed out.

Finally, ten years later and not able to hide it any longer the Canadian soldiers were recognized and awarded medals from the Queen. My buddy to this day can't be around BBQ's because the smell of burning flesh makes him sick

But again lets look at the history here, by 711 violent Muslim expansion (convert, submit "dhimitude", or die) had swept through the middle east, and made it's way all the way to spain. Spain was an Islamic country from 711-1492, over 700 years! And from spain they attempted to take France (for about 300 yrs) finally causing the first crusade around 1095.

Flash foward to 1400 and the Muslims boot the Serbs out of Kosovo and the sparing continued.

Now you want to talk recent history or "with in living memory history."

In 1941-1945 the Albanians and Coats on behalf of the Nazi's ran third largest concentration in europe "Jasenovac" camp in Croatia which ethnicly cleansed Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs.

It was estimated that 200,000 were "cleansed" between 1941 and 1942 alone.

This conflict countines on..........

You made a claim about Christian ethnic cleansing occuring in the balkans with in the last 20 years and it's a BS arguement if you don't look at the situation in it's totality.

And not to one up you, but lets talk about what's going in REAL recent history. According to Thomas Gambill, a former security chief with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). When U.S. troops entered the province in June 1999, alleged retaliatory ethnic cleansing by Albanian Muslims was already under way.

"Incidents of sexual violence, torture, arson, murder, kidnapping, and verbal threats were allegedly widespread as part of an organized and successful campaign conducted "right under the U.N.'s nose," said Gambill.

Minorities targeted by Albanian extremists for expulsion or death included Serbs, Roma, Muslim Slavs, Turks and Croats.

And this is still going on.........................

[jerrymaccauley]

Did you quote that right out of a book? This is an area of debate, not who has the best search engine. It is a highly emotional issue, don't reduce it to a subjective history lesson because, frankly,I don't have the time or desire to verify your "facts."

[RedRaider911]

I state what I can find to use as facts, you state what you can find. No ones mind is changed. Big deal. Just because you have different sources, or ones that YOU PERSONALY view as more accurate doesn't make your argument more valid.
One thing I don't appriciate about this debate is your constant reference to "EDUCATING ME" or the use of "REAL" facts. Are you saying this to accuse me of being an idiot, or because you believe that I am lying about my information? Which ever one it is I don't appriciate it.

We are obviously have different views on this topic, lets leave it at that.

[cst.sb]

I state what I can find to use as facts, you state what you can find. No ones mind is changed. Big deal. Just because you have different sources, or ones that YOU PERSONALY view as more accurate doesn't make your argument more valid.
One thing I don't appriciate about this debate is your constant reference to "EDUCATING ME" or the use of "REAL" facts. Are you saying this to accuse me of being an idiot, or because you believe that I am lying about my information? Which ever one it is I don't appriciate it.

We are obviously have different views on this topic, lets leave it at that.

I guess we're going to have to call it a day.

I don't think you're an idoit or lying, I am just saddened that you are unable to view historical information, from the crusades to modern day terrorism, and still not be swayed as to what has and is going on in this world.

[RedRaider911]

I don't want it to seem as if I am denying modern terrorism. I am not. I believe it is a very real issue. I am just stating that I do not believe this deal is the massive security issue it is being made out to be.

[FedCop]

In my best Erkle voice....

Did I start this?

Good debate guys, enjoying it.

[cst.sb]

I don't want it to seem as if I am denying modern terrorism. I am not. I believe it is a very real issue. I am just stating that I do not believe this deal is the massive security issue it is being made out to be.

On the above, I do agree with you in part. As long as security handled by Americans. (our port security is handled by minimum wage security and a handlful or Transport & Customs inspectors)

The issue that I see is that you have a company based in an Islamic nation (regardless of their being relatively off the terrorism radar) running your ports. Would they not have access to everything to do with the port then?

My concerns would be:

- Wouldn't they know when the ships would be arriving?
- When security patrols were occuring?
- The shift rotations for all employees from port police to long shoremen?
- If outside agencies, Coast Guard, FBI, DEA, etc would be on port property conducting operations?

Now, if an extrememist did want to findout this kind of information to smuggle a nuke it should would be heck of a lot easier to get it from a company based over there, than in the US.

And Jerry, most of the time I try and post my sources. This time there were so many. They range from the wikipedia, main stream media sources, such as the (uk)timesonline to The Wall Street Journal, to university online resources.

Another good source is www.jihadwatch.com by Robert Spencer (http://jihadwatch.org/spencer/) who is a researcher and writer, and appears on Fox News as their "Islam" expert. Spencer recently spoke in the Hague. With this site I always confirm the source info as they often don't reprint the entire story.

But there is one thing we do owe the Muslims for - our countries! In 1492 the spain took back the last city controlled by the Moors (Muslims) and the trade routes to the far east were cut off by maurading Muslims. So, Columbus attempted to find a sea route, and well, you know the rest.......

[cst.sb]

In my best Erkle voice....

Did I start this?

Good debate guys, enjoying it.

Damn trouble maker!!!

To anyone out that cares to learn more....

These are good for info:

The Institute for Counter-Terrorism (http://www.ict.org.il/)
MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base (http://www.tkb.org/Home.jsp)

Read the book, but the video (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005TPOO/ref=ase_pedalcarscom/103-3332791-2133467?v=glance&s=video) is supposed to be way better. It's a HUGE eye opener and one of the first books that I read on terrorism. It will scare the pants off you!

Frontline's "El Qaeda's New Front" is an excellent documentary and easy to follow if you aren't already familiar with some of the issues, like the search for the new "Caliph".

To view four 10+ minute segments of El Qaeda's New Front click here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/view/)

To watch the full version you have to buy the DVD or catch it on PBS. They've aired it twice since Jan 1st.

Teach Kids Peace short flash movie (http://www.teachkidspeace.com/flash.php)

[nitromt]

Muslims in this country have done nothing to help public perception of them. They know who the bad apples (possible terrorists) in their community are and they take no action because they have no loyalty to this country only to each other. I'm talking about the recent large group of immigrants from the middle east, not the recent American convert who decided last week that he won't eat pork. All they do is talk about racism and violence against their community. Violence that actually doesn't exist. Well, we already have one group that has worn out the word 'racism', so the new group is about 20 years too late for that to be effective. I don't know why you want to throw Asian Americans into this. They're one of the few groups who do not start bitching and demanding to be accomodated.

The CIA and FBI supposedly knoew about some of the bad apples and did nothing as well. I don't think we can fault an entire religion for the actions of a few.

[cst.sb]

The CIA and FBI supposedly knoew about some of the bad apples and did nothing as well. I don't think we can fault an entire religion for the actions of a few.

It's not just a few..... The problem is emense There is fundraising in foreign countries, recruitment of suicide bombers/terrorists, even using a foreign nations on laws against them, to further their agendas.

Have you read my posts?

Terrorist GOVERNMENTS are being voted into power, so the problem go well beyonf a "few" bad apples.

[tony.o]

The CIA and FBI supposedly knoew about some of the bad apples and did nothing as well. I don't think we can fault an entire religion for the actions of a few.
Sounds like you've picked the other side. Let me guess, you've got mohammed somewhere in your name (highlight that). The actions of a few, supported by millions. Who do you think you're fooling. By the way, I'm not against the shipping terminal container deal. Nobody else wants to deal with the overpaid whiney union dock workers. Democrats are making a fuss, because they know the majority of the American people will not take the time to actually find out what is actually taking place and the media will not report facts. Thus, the democrats have an issue to show that they are for strong national security while at the same time worried about civil rights of enemy combatants taken off the freakin battlefield in Afghanistan. Not long ago, Democrats were gripping about contracts in Iraq, wanting countries like france and other unsupportive nations to be able to bid and attacking a great American company like Haliburton. Does anyone really think Chuck Schummer and some liberal female republican from Maine are the defenders of the nation. If you're against the deal, I'll respect that as long as you are consitent regarding other security matters such as the borders.

[cst.sb]

Anyone watch the Frontline clips?

[cst.sb]

Hmmm..... just another isolated incident!

(03/04/06 -- CHAPEL HILL) - Authorities charged a recent University of North Carolina graduate with nine counts of attempted first-degree murder on Saturday, a day after police said he drove a sport utility vehicle through a popular campus gathering spot.

Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, 22, is also charged with nine counts of assault with a deadly weapon with intent to cause bodily injury.
Derek Poarch, chief of the university's police department, confirmed Saturday that Taheri-azar, a native of Iran, told investigators he wanted to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world." Poarch would not provide any other details of Taheri-azar's motive.

Source: ABC (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=3958312)

[nitromt]

It's not just a few..... The problem is emense There is fundraising in foreign countries, recruitment of suicide bombers/terrorists, even using a foreign nations on laws against them, to further their agendas.

Have you read my posts?

Terrorist GOVERNMENTS are being voted into power, so the problem go well beyonf a "few" bad apples.

That is a problem isn't it. "Terrorist governments" are being voted into power through a democracy - something that the United States government promotes. Oh boy...the irony!

[nitromt]

Sounds like you've picked the other side. Let me guess, you've got mohammed somewhere in your name (highlight that). The actions of a few, supported by millions. Who do you think you're fooling. By the way, I'm not against the shipping terminal container deal. Nobody else wants to deal with the overpaid whiney union dock workers. Democrats are making a fuss, because they know the majority of the American people will not take the time to actually find out what is actually taking place and the media will not report facts. Thus, the democrats have an issue to show that they are for strong national security while at the same time worried about civil rights of enemy combatants taken off the freakin battlefield in Afghanistan. Not long ago, Democrats were gripping about contracts in Iraq, wanting countries like france and other unsupportive nations to be able to bid and attacking a great American company like Haliburton. Does anyone really think Chuck Schummer and some liberal female republican from Maine are the defenders of the nation. If you're against the deal, I'll respect that as long as you are consitent regarding other security matters such as the borders.

Good-old fashioned racial profiling! Unfortunately, like many times, racial profiling is inaccurate. I have something more along the lines of a Lee, Chen, Li in my name.

I am a full-fledged Republican as well!

[tony.o]

Good-old fashioned racial profiling! Unfortunately, like many times, racial profiling is inaccurate. I have something more along the lines of a Lee, Chen, Li in my name.

I am a full-fledged Republican as well!
No, I'm judging you by the words you are posting.

[PFL]

Why wasn't the Chapel Hill incident national news?

[cst.sb]

Why wasn't the Chapel Hill incident national news?

It kind of makes you wonder doesn't it!!!

I mentioned earlier the story of an anit terrorism rain in Montreal that should have been HUGE, and I mean HUGE! news here in Canada, but it wasn't.

The police in Montreal raid a house that is linked to terrorism - providing fake passports and ID to overseas terorists. And as the raid in going down one of the suspects returns home. A constable outside the residence sees the suspect and attempts to arrest him. A brief struggle ensues and the suspect pulls a knfe stabs the police officer in the shoulder. The police officer then fearing for his life fatally shoots the suspect.

In Canada, that would be front page stuff. Where was it found? One single page on the CBC News (our national news service) website.

Now from website of the good people over at the Montreal Council of Muslims: "Based on the testimony of those who knew Mohamed, he was a pious Muslim with an impeccable reputation, and the police allegations against him are completely incompatible with his personality and character. In light of this, MCM is concerned that Mohamed may have been an unfortunate victim of racial profiling or raw racism and, as a result, paid for it with his life."

I truely believe that the Media on a whole is afraid to report these types of incidents. Reporting the violence caused by Islamic extrememists (that is widely supported by moderate Muslims) would result in the bombings of media outlets and the murder of journalists.

That is a problem isn't it. "Terrorist governments" are being voted into power through a democracy - something that the United States government promotes. Oh boy...the irony!

Ironic? Maybe. But, eye opening forsure! When millions of so called "moderate Muslims" vote into governemt former and current terrorists that sends a pretty strong message.

Now are you going to trust the moderate Muslims of the UAE with running your ports?