Deadly force...

[LE4Life]

Hello,

I'd like to know what reactions or response you would have given to the following question. This was on my Oral Board and am sorta worried at my answer.
You come onto a scene of a gentleman trying to kill himself with a knife. Back up ofcourse is miles and miles away and they ask what i would do in such a situation.
ME: I've always been taught a step system that involves always using a weapon that you have that is one up in strength than what the perp has. That way you have some form of deterence and also the ability to incapacitate if need be. Ie. i'd use a tazer or OC or asp.

Ofourse the next question involved if the gentlman with his knife decided to lunge at me with the knife and i dont have OC with me or any of the above isnt working. Would I pull my gun? When then is deadly force applied?

My answer was then yes i would pull my gun and if i felt that the gentleman was close enough to hurt me with his knife i would shoot him as i felt my life was in danger. Officer safety is key in this situation.

Oral board: How close would he have to get before you shot him?
ME:With in the reach of him being able to hit me by throwing the knife at me.

Oral Board:How would you shoot the gun? With what force?
If I felt my life was in danger, i'd shoot to kill. (This is where i get worried.)

Do you feel that the "shoot to kill" answer was a bit much? My mind says no, but i cant tell how they felt.
Thanks for the reply's in advance!

Chris

[deputy x 2]

During an entry level oral- the panel is aware that you may not be familiar with their deadly force policy. There are no right or wrong answers ..really. They are probably determining if you can make a decision.

A person can lunge at you and get you from about 20 feet. There is a reactionary lag time. You always go one step higher that what the individual presents..ie no oc for a knife. Using a tazer, might not be efficient depending on how close you need to be to fire it. Does he have a sweater or jacket on??? Prongs might not penetrate.

How would you shoot the gun? You ALWAYS shoot to (stop the threat) kill. If the person had a gun and you shot them..unless you hit them in the brain stem...they STILL can shoot back. It takes awhile for the "body" to shut down..

Other options may be- Is he a danger to anyone else? Is he contained or out and about with the public. If he is contained- you can always call a negotiator. Or use some type of less lethal (backed up by lethal) ie bean bag.
If he is NOT contained and a danger to the public..ya got to do what ya got to do...if he makes furtive motions.

The shoot to kill answer was a good answer...given their question. Don't worry. You will get shoot don't shoot senarios in the academy.

[LE4Life]

Thanks guys,
I figured it was an oddity of a question due to the lack of knowledge that most would have. I can definitely tell that they were wanting to see if i could make a split decision quickly and effectively. Truthfully, your right when it comes to the step up system, I dont know now until i get into the academy what weapons would be considered a step up from the perps, i havent learned that yet.
I made sure that every question, besides the ending scenerio of him lunging at me, was concluded with less than lethal force weapons. Ofcourse, they took it to a level where i felt needed lethal force, ie. as an officer i would be in danger for my life. It felt wierd leaving it at the "shoot to kill" part so i tried to explain a little more. I said additionally, that if an officer is going to pull his gun in the intent of using it, then the shoot to kill aspect should always be used. If he chooses to use it for a deterent or compliance, different circumstances apply to the shoot to kill rule. I was thinking the same as deputy was....what else would you be doing if you chose to pull your gun and shoot someone. Disable them maybe, but again as you said, they can still hurt you after the fact...just some thoughts.
Thanks a bunch guys.

[bkema]

Never, ever let a suspect armed with an edged weapon get within 21 feet of you, there are proven studies showing that cannot deploy your weapon fast enough to neutralize the threat.

[nasa808]

in nj there are 5 levels of force..
1.constructive force
2.physical contact
3 physical force
4.mechanical force
5.deadly force
you could jump from one to five(you dont have to go in order)

[SgtScott31]

Officers shoot to stop the threat. If that kills them, then so be it.

[horne80]

The only wrong answer would've been "I'd of tried to disarm the flailing man with a knife".

heh.. you disarm with a bullet in the chest. The knife merely follows what the bullet set in motion.

[Centurion44]

ME: I've always been taught a step system that involves always using a weapon that you have that is one up in strength than what the perp has. That way you have some form of deterence and also the ability to incapacitate if need be. Ie. i'd use a tazer or OC or asp.

You sounded too timid to draw your weapon.

First off, this "step system" you talk about is like a use of force doctrine. A knife can kill you, so the situation is a letha force situation. YOu shouldn't have deployed anything but your weapon. If he did anything towards you, you shoot to stop the threat.


Oral board: How close would he have to get before you shot him?
ME:With in the reach of him being able to hit me by throwing the knife at me.

HOw close is that? How do you know this guy isn't a knife-thrower for the circus?

Oral Board:How would you shoot the gun? With what force?
If I felt my life was in danger, i'd shoot to kill. (This is where i get worried.)

Again, you were "Hemming and hawwing" and they pretty much had to drag the right answer out of you. That kind of mentality gets officers killed.

Do you feel that the "shoot to kill" answer was a bit much? My mind says no, but i cant tell how they felt.

Too much? No. Not enough.

[Centurion44]

Never, ever let a suspect armed with an edged weapon get within 21 feet of you, there are proven studies showing that cannot deploy your weapon fast enough to neutralize the threat.

Actually, a couple of years ago the "21 foot rule" was broken (I forget by who). So it's now a 30 foot rule.

[LE4Life]

Well, as stated in another post, I didnt get into one of the positions/openings. The letter stated that it takes on average 2 or 3 tries to get into the state police, which i was pretty much counting on in the first place.

I can see how my responses could have shown a small amount of hesitation, as you put it, but again i wasnt sure of the exact nature of the crime. I've always been taught that officer safety is number one and if it means killing someone for your sake then you do it. I believe me answer was correct, thats not what i was worried about, merely the direct answer of "shoot to kill" which should have been placed a little more politically correct at "shoot to stop the threat." This was my main concern.

Now that I think about it my i believe my real problem was how far i actually allowed the perp to get without shooting him. I mentioned 10 feet and i was wrong as mentioned above in previous posts. Truthfully I've never known this but take this experience as a learning one and see that hind sight is obviously 20/20.

Thanks for the advise...

[AnGardaSiochana]

Your answers seem pretty spot on for America considering your not trained yet.

In these things there not looking for the correct cop response, they want to know can you make tough decisions using some common sense or are you a psycho.

I wont go into what we are trained to do in this situation it would only annoy American cops and work myself up as well. :rolleyes:

[AnGardaSiochana]

Don't you guys just invite him down to the pub for a pint or three and talk it through?

:p
More or less :D

Talking down a dangerous but mad (not PC word) suspect according to the powers that be:

1. Appear relaxed, remove your tie, appuelettes, hat, etc to appear more casual and less threatening.
2. Keep your distance, moving towards them may threaten them.
3. Request a doctor to attend the scene.
4. Talk to them about their problems, try to work them out, offer them advise and support for their problems. Offer and provide whatever they request.
5. Repeat step 4 until he finally A, falls asleep B, attacks you or C, it actually works.

Note: If he attacks you its YOUR fault, you didnt do step 4 properly.