I feel like the only way to be safe is to speed.... [Archive] - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

Dolmen

12-02-2005, 03:07 PM

Greetings all,

I'm an experienced motorcyclist and I'm in Los Angeles and I will admit that I frequently exceed posted limits.

The reason I frequently exceed posted limits is because everyone else does, I feel that if I actually went at the speed limit, I'd have to spend all my time looking in my rear view mirrors to make sure I don't get rear ended by some numb nuts in an SUV doing 20 over whilst making a phone call.

If I was less vulnerable I'd be happier travelling more slowly, but I'd rather keep the danger in front of me than have to worry about what's coming up behind, the problem with this is, I look like every other sportbike riding idiot in that it appears I don't give a crap about speed limits or other people's safety, an appearance not helped by owning what looks and sounds like a land based cruise missile.

How should I handle it? Do I speed and risk a ticket? Or stay at the limit and risk getting run over?

1sgkelly

12-02-2005, 03:19 PM

Buy a cage.

SlowDownThere

12-02-2005, 03:41 PM

You've made a great point. All these years I spent enforceing the law have been wasted. My God, what was I thinking. I wish I heard this argument before those thousands of tickets I gave out in my career. I feel so foolish.

Yup, I say speed. Really go at it too. In fact, you should do so recklessly, with no helmet, even drunk. By all means, the faster the safer.

It's an epiphany.

Dolmen

12-02-2005, 05:25 PM

Yup, I say speed. Really go at it too. In fact, you should do so recklessly, with no helmet, even drunk. By all means, the faster the safer.

Well that was constructive, I'm not some 20 something punk whose seen "Biker Boyz" too many times and drag races his litrebike up and down city streets wearing a t-shirt, flip flops and an imitation nazi helmet, which is exactly the type of image most people have of sportsbike riders.

I'm over 30, I've been riding for 8 years both here and in central London, I know what I'm doing on two wheels and I ride primarily because I would rather my mistake kill myself than someone else, hence I don't own a car.

Have you driven in LA? This is a city where *everyone* routinely drives 15-20 over the limit on city streets, bumper to bumper (heard of the 2 second rule? apparently nobody here has), 1 in 4 is usually on a cell phone, nobody signals and when they do it's usually either after the fact or they do 8 miles before they remember to turn it off.

It's my estimation the only way I can avoid getting plowed into by one of these idiots is to stay the hell away from them, the vast majority of the time, I can either be legal or I can be safe, pick one.

SlowDownThere

12-02-2005, 05:49 PM

Yes I've driven in LA, and I drive in NYC all the time.

The 2 second rule is a joke. Three cars, a bus and 2 MC's would fit in the space occupied by 2 seconds. On that issue, I agree with you.

But it's kind of crazy for you to come onto this site and ask our opinion of your speeding. Like we're going to so it's OK for you to do that? Just mention my name when you get stopped. It will be alright.

Dolmen

12-02-2005, 05:54 PM

Well my primary concern is this, are you more concerned about whether someone is breaking the law, or whether they're being safe?

If I'm on an empty city street, I'll stick to the speed limit, but if traffic's passing by me, I'll accelerate so that I don't have to keep my eyes on my mirrors all the time, but I know how you guys feel about the "I was just keeping up with traffic" excuse.

SlowDownThere

12-02-2005, 05:59 PM

Yup, I say speed. Really go at it too. In fact, you should do so recklessly, with no helmet, even drunk. By all means, the faster the safer. It's an epiphany.

Ok, I admit, the part above was uncalled for and I apologize. The rest of my post I stand behind as humorous, and obviously tounge-in-cheek.

To answer your question directly, I don't think you will get pulled over for going with traffic. You really would have to be singled out for that to happen. Most people who claim they are just keeping up with traffic really are not.

Being safe is more important. Far more important

L-1

12-02-2005, 06:32 PM

Have you driven in LA? This is a city where *everyone* routinely drives 15-20 over the limit on city streets, bumper to bumper (heard of the 2 second rule? apparently nobody here has), 1 in 4 is usually on a cell phone, nobody signals and when they do it's usually either after the fact or they do 8 miles before they remember to turn it off.

Yep, it's pretty common in Southern California. And to a certain extent, law enforcement recognizes it as well (unofficially, of course). A couple of years ago either the LA Times or the OC Register went to the various court houses in Orange County (for you out of state folks that's the next county south of LA) and did an audit of all speeding tickets issued on Orange County Freeways. It found that of the thousands of cites issued by CHP for speeding above the 65 MPH limit, only one was for a speed of less than 80 MPH. What can I say?

Centurion44

12-03-2005, 01:14 AM

I really should make it my sig file, it seems I'm always saying this to drive-by posters: Do whatever you want, just be ready to deal with the consequences.

SgtScott31

12-03-2005, 02:19 AM

Ever consider getting in a car?

My Paramedic Instructor nicknamed motorcycles, "murdercycles." You could be the best rider in the world, but as you've stated already, it's the rest of the driving public you have to worry about.

If you are really that concerned about getting run over, then get in a car. That saves all of your problems. At least when some assclown finally hits you, you stand a good chance of not instantly being squashed and killed.

The "rest of drivers speed" defense does not work well in court. I understand that it probably does happen, but giving that statement to a judge against a speeding ticket will do nothing but **** him off.

I have been doing vehicle rescue/extrication for over 8 years, and of all the motorcycle wrecks I've responded to, whether the riders fault or not, they have usually been dead or critically injured. I know there are millions of riders, but it's still not a safe way to travel in my book.

Northtechsan

12-03-2005, 12:29 PM

the problem with this is, I look like every other sportbike riding idiot in that it appears I don't give a crap about speed limits or other people's safety, an appearance not helped by owning what looks and sounds like a land based cruise missile.

So are you saying your the sport bike riding idiot, cares about the speed limit, and the safety of others. However your knowingly and intentionally going faster because everyone else does, and you see it as defensive driving?

Dolmen

12-04-2005, 12:31 AM

So are you saying your the sport bike riding idiot, cares about the speed limit, and the safety of others. However your knowingly and intentionally going faster because everyone else does, and you see it as defensive driving?
I base my riding on the road and traffic conditions, if travelling at the speed limit means I'm a hazard and at risk of getting rear ended by some idiot on a cell phone, then yes, I'll exceed the posted limit, especially if it means I can get into a clear stretch of road away from other vehicles.

On a motorcycle, typically the only people I'm endangering are cyclists, pedestrians and myself, so on the proviso that I'm not liable to put any of these in danger, yes, I'll twist the loud handle and get the hell away from the myopic idiots in 3 ton steel boxes (obviously I'm not talking about all car drivers here, just the vast majority :))

Northtechsan

12-04-2005, 09:42 AM

On a motorcycle, typically the only people I'm endangering are cyclists, pedestrians and myself

Well I have worked several traffic accidents where it was the unsafe speed, unsafe lane changes, and right of way violations by motorcyclist, have resulted in serious injures of drivers, and passengers (both adults and children) of passenger cars and SUV's. Because there drivers took sudden action not to hit your fellow two wheeled motorist.

So the next time I see a motorcycle doing 63 in a 40 during light night traffic, I'm going to stroke him a cite just as I did last night.

Dolmen

12-04-2005, 06:02 PM

Well I have worked several traffic accidents where it was the unsafe speed, unsafe lane changes, and right of way violations by motorcyclist, have resulted in serious injures of drivers, and passengers (both adults and children) of passenger cars and SUV's. Because there drivers took sudden action not to hit your fellow two wheeled motorist.
I don't recall saying anything about travelling at an unsafe speed, I said exceeding the posted limit, but I will certainly agree that there are no shortage of undertrained, inexperienced idiots out there on machines they have no business being near.

I would say I exceed posted limits, but I very very rarely travel at an unsafe speed, but at all times I'm focussed entirely on riding, I'm not listening to the stereo, fiddling with the a/c, making a phonecall, arguing with the kids, applying makeup, eating anything, reading anything or generally living in my own little world.

My entire undivided attention is focussed on the task at hand, I wish more road users could say that.

I went on the toy ride this morning, which is a sportsbike ride for charity, I won't be doing it next year, too many idiots pulling exactly the stuff you talk about above, we cut out halfway through and left the madness behind, I'm amazed there wasn't an accident.
So the next time I see a motorcycle doing 63 in a 40 during light night traffic, I'm going to stroke him a cite just as I did last night.
Sounds entirely like the guy deserved it, 63 in a 40 is generally excessive, but speeds on Lincoln ave here for example are typically 50mph in a 35/40, I might occasionally blip the throttle to give myself some breathing room (provided I can see that the road is clear enough to do so) but usually find that my acceleration away from lights is fast enough to do that.

However on the way back from the toyride this morning, I was in the HOV lane (which I'm allowed to be in CA) with a green taurus tailgating me at an indicated 90mph, I had a good half a mile of clear road in front of me and was travelling roughly the same speed as surrounding light traffic.

I reached a clear straight section of road and briefly pulled away to give myself more room, then slowed back down to 85, within 10 seconds the taurus was right on my tail again. I was waiting for the next break so I could wave them past but I guess they got bored because I looked back and they'd cut across the double double yellow, gone across 4 lanes of traffic and were now doing 100+ in the right hand lane, they then proceeded to start weaving through cars and dove off at the next off ramp.

If speed is my only defence against some idiot like this, I'm definitely using it.

Bigg Dogg

12-09-2005, 01:07 PM

If you are so worried about being ran over on the bike,get a car or truck with more protection.

calsarge

12-24-2005, 08:51 AM

I ride (off-duty) on SoCal freeways and know exactly of what you speak. No officer is going to advise you to break the law. In California, there are two types of speed laws. CVC 22350, unsafe speed for conditions and CVC 22349, exceeding the federally mandated speed limit. In California, CVC 22350 is not about exceeding the speed limit, per se, but travelling too fast for the conditions. In other words, just going 40 mph in a 35 mph zone on a deserted city street with no other danger factors would not normally be considered unsafe and therefore defensible in court. Conversely, driving 30 mph in a 35 mph zone in heavy traffic and heavy fog would be unsafe and citeable. It is all about the officer's articulation in court as to why your speed was unsafe. CVC 22349 covers the Fed S/L and all that needs to be proven is you were exceeding it. If the freeway is posted 65 mph and you are going 66 mph, by statute you are guilty (although the CHP is good about not writing these types of chicken s**t tickets.) Flow of traffic is never a defense in theory but most likely taken into consideration practically.

What I do when riding is travel in the extreme outside lane when possible. I like this because the faster traffic is on my left and, God forbid I go down, I have the shoulder to aim for so I do not get run over. If you decide to ride faster than the S/L on the freeway to be safe, do so with the understanding you are leaving yourself open to enforcement action. I for one would not write you within reason, but I can't speak for everyone.

CHPMarine

12-24-2005, 01:05 PM

85 mph on a los angeles freeway? that is quite excessive. if you dont want people on your tail... MOVE TO THE RIGHT! i tell this to everyone i can, you do not have the right to travel in the extreme left hand lane just because you want to or are going the speed limit. if you are not passing another vehicle, you are not to be in the extreme left hand lane. there are some people who get on the freeway, cut across all lanes and stay in the left lane. It does not matter if you are at 65 mph exactly, you need to move over. If everyone understood this, tailgating and in turn, road rage, would be greatly reduced.

one more thing i have to add....

Have you ever really seen what 85 mph does to a human body? or even 65 mph? probably not... you may think it is only you that you may be affecting if you go down, I (speaking on behalf of all cops) have to see your body parts spread across the freeway. that is not something that you go home and just forget. in the last two weeks, i have been to 3 fatal crashes, its not fun. that is why speed limits are in place.

Bodie

12-24-2005, 03:28 PM

Go Really FAST .............. But make sure you carry ORGAN DONOR card laminated so blood won't ruin it.

AnGardaSiochana

12-24-2005, 08:10 PM

In certain parts of Germany they have no max speed limit but a minimum speed limit. Sounds crazy but as far as I know it works.

CHPMarine

12-26-2005, 11:31 AM

In certain parts of Germany they have no max speed limit but a minimum speed limit. Sounds crazy but as far as I know it works.

that would never work in southern california. we have way too many -really bad- drivers here. there are people that cant drive the maximum 65 mph without crashing and killing people.

Bigg Dogg

12-28-2005, 03:43 AM

In certain parts of Germany they have no max speed limit but a minimum speed limit. Sounds crazy but as far as I know it works.

But they hammer the drivers for other things,like unsafe lane changes,illegally equipped vehicles,equipment malfunctions and other things.Have a buddy that was Stationed in Germany and like to drive on the Autobahn.He got cited a couple of times for unsafe lane changes at 150 MPH.

JRjr

01-01-2006, 05:11 AM

What about the 85% rule?

Do any officers use it?

I think that being safe supercedes being legal. I would much rather share the road with others intent on being safe on the highway, than be worried about going the posted s.l., and tooling along (usually in the left lane)at 55mph when 85% of the traffic is going 70-75mph.

What I observed in Germany when I was there, is that all Autobahn drivers are more serious and focused on their driving than in the US. If/when you see them going 150mph, they are as focused as a long tailed can in a room full of rocking chairs. No cell phones, cup holders, TV screens, video games, or day care centers in their vehicles.

AnGardaSiochana

01-01-2006, 05:24 AM

What about the 85% rule? Do any officers use it?

What about it? In fact, what is it?

I think that being safe supercedes being legal
There is no difference, unsafe is illegal.

than be worried about going the posted s.l., and tooling along (usually in the left lane)at 55mph when 85% of the traffic is going 70-75mph.
They are only in your way because your speeding! They are being safe not you.

I would much rather share the road with others intent on being safe on the highway
As apposed to those that are intent on causing a traffic accident? Everyone intends to be safe and not hit another car but it doesnt happen.

No cell phones, cup holders, TV screens, video games, or day care centers in their vehicles.
People drive while playing video games and watching tv? :confused:

JRjr

01-01-2006, 02:33 PM

People drive while playing video games and watching tv? :confused:

And talking on their cell phones

Dolmen

01-01-2006, 02:42 PM

85 mph on a los angeles freeway? that is quite excessive. if you dont want people on your tail... MOVE TO THE RIGHT!
If you read my post about 85mph you'll see that I was in the HOV lane and so couldn't move to the right without crossing the double yellow lines, I personally hate left lane hogs as much as the next guy and observe correct lane discipline regardless of what speed I'm doing (although ideally I will tend to keep an empty lane to the right of me to give me some space away from pedestrians or merging cars).

I was going to get out of the Taurus' way at the next gap, but as I said, they obviously got fed up with me, cut across the double yellows and 4 lanes of traffic and was busy tearing past cars in the right hand lane.

If I have the choice of speeding or causing some idiot in a cage to suffer a road rage attack and try to ram my *** off the road, guess what, I'm speeding, I'd rather break the law than get killed.

Dolmen

01-01-2006, 02:47 PM

There is no difference, unsafe is illegal.

Ah, but is illegal necessarily unsafe?

Is 90mph on a deserted motorway less safe than religiously sticking to a 45 limit in a busy town center?

They are only in your way because your speeding! They are being safe not you.

Here I would say they were being legal, not necessarily safe, depending, of course, on conditions.

Now if all three lanes of traffic are doing 65mph, then ok, but if they're sitting in the fast lane doing under the speed limit, then why are they in the overtaking lane in the first place?

People drive while playing video games and watching tv? :confused:

Easiest way to generate revenue in CA would just to make talking on cell phones illegal like they did in the UK, I'd say fully 1 in 4 drivers here is yakking away on their mobile instead of concentrating on the road.

hemicop

01-01-2006, 03:20 PM

Dolman, I looked through the thread,saw all the responses & agreed with all of them to varying degrees(even the sarcastic ones :p ). The Calif. offs. gave you the best advice, I think, since there from your area & experience what you go through. I love MCs & would love to have one. BUT everytime i go shopping for one, guess what?---I get sent on a fatal involving a bike. Now, I won't go so far as to suggest you keep speeding or give up & buy a car. But let me ask you--- do you want your family to attend a closed casket funeral? How do you know you won't be a victim of a road rage incident BECAUSE of your speed? Is the thrill of speed so great you can't take it to the track instead of the street? Here in Az. we have similiar problems,mostly from transplanted Californians, so I'm not completely talking out my *****. On a veh. where you don't get a 2nd chance it just seems foolish to drive through a group of non-thinking, incompetent drivers at 15-20+ over the speed limit. But hey, you're an adult, do whatever you think you can get away with. I wish I was as dedicated to riding a MC as you are......

Dolmen

01-01-2006, 03:24 PM

Oh believe me, I keep the real speed to the track, but my point is merely this, at 15-20mph over the limit I'm not driving THROUGH anything, other traffic is going the same speed I am.

If everyone else travelled at the speed limit, so would I, after all, it doesn't matter if I'm travelling at 65mph if the car that slams into me is doing 85, it might well be technically his fault, but I'll still be dead.

hemicop

01-01-2006, 03:48 PM

On being dead anyway, I agree with you. But traffic enforcement is really a cat-&-mouse game. Sometimes the offs. win, sometimes the civilians do.(Actually we always win as we get paid for what we do :D ). Anyway, what I'm suggesting is that you minimize your LIABILTY in a driving/accident situation. If the limit is 65mph, EVERYONE is doing 75+, and you hit something or get hit the first thing that comes up (for both drivers) is : How fast were you going? Now if both vehs. were going ,say 75+, the victim and/or witness is going to say (most likely) the MC was speeding. Why? Perhaps a pre concieved notion or at that time the MC actually APPEARED to be going faster than the other veh. In any event , you're looked at as the "bad guy", chances are you'll be cited & if it goes to civil court the question of speed WILL come up & it's one more headache you & your attorney will have to deal with. If you stay at/near the speed limit (+- 10mph) you're minimizing your legal problems in the long run.

Dolmen

01-02-2006, 12:30 AM

I am not familiar with Ca law. Are you not allowed to cross the painted lines at all to get out of the HOV lane?

Sadly not, this is from the CA Driver's handbook;

Do not cross over double parallel solid lines to enter or exit any carpool lane except at designated entry or exit places.

I think it's dangerous to be honest, I think that the double yellows should be broken on the inside to allow you to exit any time you wish, too often the break is very close to the exit, so you have to make several rapid lane changes from left to right in order to make it off, that's just asking to cause accidents.

Like I said, if someone really wants to get past I'll just move out of the way, usually I'm not in the left hand lane unless I am actually overtaking someone, but if you've got a tailgater in the HOV lane where you can't easily get out of their way, what can you do?
Looks like you answered your own question. Ride with the flow, but keep in mind that it is not a defense in court.
I realise it's technically illegal, but I was just wondering what officer's attitudes were, whether enforcement of the law takes precedence over what's considered safe roadcraft.

irishlad2nv

01-02-2006, 12:40 AM

Dolmen

01-02-2006, 01:43 AM

Dolmen, in all the years you have been riding like this, have you been stopped? Have you been in an accident or caused one? Do you think you may have caused an accideng by your driving/riding abilities and didn't look back to see if anyone was hurt? Have you been involoved in a hit and run?
I was stopped a couple (literally twice) of times for speeding in England, but was let off with a warning in both cases because other than the speed I was riding safely - both cases were doing 90mph on a deserted motorway in the middle of the night.

I did get a FPN for doing 42 in a 30 from a speed camera (one of the mobile ones in a van) and that's the only conviction I've had, there's no arguing with a speed camera is there and I've seen some in some pretty questionable places.

I've had a couple of accidents too (in 8 years), both involving solely myself and both at under the speed limit, first one was within a few months of starting to ride, second one was quite recent and came as somewhat of a shock, but I wasn't breaking the law in either instance, the only injuries in both cases were to myself (which to be honest is one of the main reasons I ride a bike, I don't want my mistake to kill someone else).

I've never caused another vehicle to swerve or crash and I've never been involved in a hit and run.

Yeah I am just messing with you with all of the questions, but if you are saying that you drive 15-20mph over the speed limit because everyone else is doing it, well then I guess you would state that to an officer if every stopped for speeding?
Oh, I know how you guys love the "going with the flow" excuse :)

I haven't been stopped over here yet, but don't plan on doing anything other than respectfully agreeing with the officer when and if I do.

My advice, just be careful since car/truck drivers always have to be more cautious with people on motorcycles.
I'm nearly always very careful, but I'm only human, I was trained in England, so I have a lot more training under my belt than the vast majority of US bikers (we spend 3 days on full sized machines in all situations, not just 8 hours in a parking lot), have ridden in central London for several years and am thankful that the roads out here are wider and that there are substantially fewer pedestrians around.

I generally build a mental image of all the cars around me, if one disappears from my rear view mirrors I'll check around to see where they've gone, I'm not fiddling with a stereo, talking on a cell phone or trying to shut up the kids in the back seat, when I ride, all I'm doing is riding with my mind on the job at hand.

AnGardaSiochana

01-02-2006, 11:33 AM

Ah, but is illegal necessarily unsafe?

Is 90mph on a deserted motorway less safe than religiously sticking to a 45 limit in a busy town center?
Yes and heres why, ice, sleet, oil, wind, bad tyres, headaches, sleep, drowsyness, illness, familiarity. Will I go on? You are so confident that you believe an accident could not possible be caused by any factor other than another vehicle and most assuredly not by your own abilities but those limits are there for a reason, not at a guess. Studies were conducted and experts decided on a safe maximum speed.

Here I would say they were being legal, not necessarily safe, depending, of course, on conditions.
Of course, they could be driving at 30 per hour but be weaving in and out of traffic. Crossing the line, etc. The car itself may be faulty or the driver could be blind. Speed is only 1 factor in driving safely. This is not a good argument point.

but if they're sitting in the fast lane doing under the speed limit, then why are they in the overtaking lane in the first place?

Now hold on a second here. This is where your common myth perception comes into play. Is it A, a fast lane, B, An overtaking lane or C, both lanes are actually the same in law? Ask 100 people including cops and you will get all 3 answers. You have called it both A and B which of course it cannot be and also please note that a speed limit is a speed limit regardless of lane. 70 MPH is for BOTH lanes therefore its not relevent which lane they are in if they are driving at the speed limit. Of course, state by state may have their own definition so I will not comment conclusively on that. In Ireland both lane are legally equal but the outside lane is considered the faster of the 2.

Easiest way to generate revenue in CA would just to make talking on cell phones illegal like they did in the UK, I'd say fully 1 in 4 drivers here is yakking away on their mobile instead of concentrating on the road.
Yes but thats not what I asked, I stated games and videos. not chatting on phones. It is illegal here as it can be considered careless driving and legislation is planned to ban it. Amazing that you consider everyone else to be commiting a dangerous act but the professionals are wrong in thinking your actions are dangerous, strike you as odd?

Dolmen

01-03-2006, 01:00 PM

Yes and heres why, ice, sleet, oil, wind, bad tyres, headaches, sleep, drowsyness, illness, familiarity.
All of which could apply in either case, so this isn't a valid argument, of course 90mph on an icy windy motorway is a lot more dangerous than 45mph in a dry, sunny town center. That's not the argument, the argument is all things being equal is doing 90mph on a 3 lane motorway more dangerous than 45mph in a busy town center? Of course it isn't, speed alone is not enough to cause an accident.

Exceeding the posted limit by itself isn't specifically unsafe, just as religiously sticking to the posted limit doesn't mean you're being safe, there are other factors involved, not the least of which is the speed of surrounding traffic.

Will I go on? You are so confident that you believe an accident could not possible be caused by any factor other than another vehicle and most assuredly not by your own abilities but those limits are there for a reason, not at a guess. Studies were conducted and experts decided on a safe maximum speed.
True, but most of these speed limits were set decades ago when machines had none of the safety features, handling or brakes that modern vehicles do, so whilst I would agree that a lot of limits are set due to visibility or conditions (say mountain roads or town centers) and those factors haven't changed, speeds on things like freeways and motorways need a serious looking at, what good is a 65mph limit if nobody pays any attention to it?

Of course, they could be driving at 30 per hour but be weaving in and out of traffic. Crossing the line, etc. The car itself may be faulty or the driver could be blind. Speed is only 1 factor in driving safely. This is not a good argument point.

Exactly, speed is a factor, I think we can both agree that travelling at a substantially different speed to all other traffic is a hazard yes? Obviously if you're travelling 25mph faster than everyone else you're a hazard, no argument from me there, but what if everyone's travelling 20mph over the speed limit and you're travelling 5mph under? I would say you're just as big a hazard even though technically you're the only one obeying the law.

Now hold on a second here. This is where your common myth perception comes into play. Is it A, a fast lane, B, An overtaking lane or C, both lanes are actually the same in law? Ask 100 people including cops and you will get all 3 answers. You have called it both A and B which of course it cannot be and also please note that a speed limit is a speed limit regardless of lane. 70 MPH is for BOTH lanes therefore its not relevent which lane they are in if they are driving at the speed limit. Of course, state by state may have their own definition so I will not comment conclusively on that. In Ireland both lane are legally equal but the outside lane is considered the faster of the 2.

I used "fast lane" because I don't want either of us to get confused, I can't say the left hand lane because you don't know if I'm referring to UK motorways or US freeways (and in fact in the US the leftmost lane is sometimes the HOV lane which has it's own problems), I'm well aware of the function of each lane on a motorway/freeway and was simply using the vernacular to try to avoid confusion.

If you're travelling at 65mph in the 2nd overtaking lane and there is a: no-one inside of you and b: a line of traffic bunched up behind you, you're being a hazard.

Yes but thats not what I asked, I stated games and videos. not chatting on phones. It is illegal here as it can be considered careless driving and legislation is planned to ban it. Amazing that you consider everyone else to be commiting a dangerous act but the professionals are wrong in thinking your actions are dangerous, strike you as odd?
I've seen people watching videos, reading newspapers and eating doughnuts, applying makeup and generally doing any number of things other than actually driving, not to mention the number of obviously drunk drivers out there, personally I want to stay the hell away from any of them.

Dolmen

01-03-2006, 01:19 PM

When riding an inherently unstable articulated uni-track vehicle, you are going to fall over at some point. Little chance of avoiding that. Don't think that you are the only one who can get hurt. Riding sanely makes it way more likely that you will be the sole victim. But I can show you plenty of pictures where high speed squids have flipped cars in a collision or nearly cut them in half.
I've seen that too, but I'm not saying that travelling at 130mph is safer than travelling at 65, what I'm saying is that if everyone else is travelling at 80, you're safest to travel at 80 as well even though it's technically illegal.

I just wanted to make sure that most officers had the attitude that they'd rather see safe riding/driving than use the fact that everyone was speeding to pick on random individuals for ticketing.

I'm new to the US and have heard a lot of complaints from other road users about traffic enforcement round these parts, I didn't want to just take their word for it - as you say, most people who said they were just going with the flow generally weren't.

Yeah, especially since you don't get pulled over for speed when you are going with the flow. I pulled a new rider on a liter bike over who claimed he was going with the flow. He was 25mph faster and weaving in and out, but in his mind he was riding safe because someone told him it was safer to stay in front of everybody. Still on a learners permit and riding a 150hp bike like a moron. :rolleyes:

I know, it's rediculous, I've been riding for 8 years and have only just graduated to a litrebike, and a v-twin one at that so I'm only producing about 120bhp, I'm staggered that you can ride a 180mph machine on a learner's permit here, you guys have really embraced the whole notion of natural selection haven't you? :)

Most riders here don't even have 8 hours of training. The vast majority simply hop on a bike and ride long enough to get the hang of it. Then they pass the test which is laughable and off they go. That is why motorcycles have such a bad reputation (organ donors, murdercycles, etc.). Keep that in mind if you go on a group ride with folks you don't know well. On my own, I actually feel safer on a bike than in a cage. I have better situational awareness, and more maneuverability to avoid idiots.
The US motorcycle fatality rate is 20 times higher than the UKs, the UK suffers 2 deaths per million vehicle miles, in the US it's just shy of 40. As I say, I've had a couple of crashes and if I hadn't been riding sanely I wouldn't be here to talk about them :)

I generally ride on my own and felt pretty safe, but I wiped out on Angeles Crest during a group ride (I was doing 35mph in a 45 limit during that accident) and it took me a while to figure out what I'd done wrong, I broke my leg (not too badly - unlike a lot of riders out here I wear full leathers when I ride) so I was glad to have been in a group at the time.

Fuzz

01-03-2006, 03:48 PM

Here is my .02 from an officer who also rides off duty. I was riding home (cruiser bike) after shift at 0200 going 65 mph in the right hand lane with almost no traffic on the freeway. I was rear ended by some idiot in an suv going at least 80-90 mph in the right lane. Luckily I managed to not lay the bike down as I saw him at the last minute and moved so he just grazed the right side of my bike....it was a close one though. Idiot said he was tired and didnt see me.......and blew .000 on the breathalyzer. Point is..... I choose to ride a motorcycle and I know that it is my responisibility to watch everyone else on the road because they dont watch. I still choose to ride accepting the fact that I am at a higher risk of getting hurt than if I was in a car.

As to your question.....I am not a hypocrite and yes have driven faster than posted on the freeway..maybe 70-75...on my bike and in my car. I do not write people for going 70 or 75 mph on the freeway....I write the ones going 85,90,100+ or the ones weaving in and out of traffic regardless of their speed. Your suggestion that you drive faster than everyone so that you don't get rear ended is only going to get you hurt/killed or arrested. There is always going to be someone coming up from behind that is going faster than you...there will always be one person who tailgates the other because hes only going 90 and they want to go even faster. You will never safely go faster than everyone coming from behind. Your braking distance increases exponentially as your speed increases so you are putting others at risk because you wont be able to stop in the same amount of time. As your speed increases you will also be outriding your headlamps at night no matter how good of a bike you are on. One pothole, one piece of wood in the road and you are now being scrapped off the freeway. As far as your comments about rural empty roads....same concept. You never know what the road condition is going to be or what animal is going to run out in front of you...yes even in southern CA we have some scraggly deer or coyotes that end up road kill. You may have more training on a bike than most other riders, but your mindset is whats going to get you hurt. From one rider to another....ride smart, not faster.

Dolmen

01-03-2006, 04:09 PM

Ok, perhaps I should clarify;

By "speeding" I do not mean I'm the fastest thing on the road, I mean I'm exceeding the posted speed limit, just like everyone else in Los Angeles, nine times out of ten if there's an idiot tailgating me and we're both doing 15 mph over the limit, I'm moving over and slowing down, the exception to this is if I can't safely do so, such as if I'm in the HOV lane.

If I travel at the posted speed limit anywhere, I'm liable to get hit from behind just as Fuzz did.

Generally I can get a decent buffer between myself and other cars by accelerating hard away from traffic lights, even without exceeding the speed limit I can get a couple hundred feet between myself and the car behind me.

However, if I don't keep accelerating to over the speed limit, that safety margin will disappear by the time I reach the next light, because the guy behind me will almost certainly be travelling 10-15mph faster than I'm going if I'm staying legal - I do not like to have to ride with my eyes constantly on the mirrors, I perform regular mirror checks, but a lower speed differential between myself and other vehicles means I can focus less on what the car behind me is doing and more on what's going on in front of me.

I do not typically ride faster than everyone else on the road, if I'm slaloming through cars, I'm going too quickly.

At no point do I recall saying that I constantly travel faster than EVERYONE else on the road, but I do travel faster than the posted limit.

I will generally accelerate away from traffic behind me but generally won't accelerate to faster than traffic in front of me - there's no point in my creating a buffer zone behind me at the expense of my braking zone in front of me

The only exception to this is if I can see there is a big clear stretch of road in front of the vehicle/vehicles directly in front of me, in which case I will generally accelerate between both lanes of traffic in front of me so I can get into a nice clear section of road with plenty of breathing space in front and behind me.

Yes I'm aware of the risks in doing so, no, I don't do it in areas with a lot of pedestrians, no, I won't do it if the cars are staggered and so liable to change lanes, yes it means I'm going briefly faster than other traffic.

Safety (mine and others) is ALWAYS my primary concern, observation is king, you can't avoid a hazard if you never see it.

On a bike, I am small and agile, my best weapons against getting hit are speed and mobility, I am not going to ride like I'm driving a car and expect to avoid a collision.

Ps. Fuzz, glad to hear you didn't come a cropper after getting rear ended, nice save :)

AnGardaSiochana

01-03-2006, 04:27 PM

All of which could apply in either case, so this isn't a valid argument, of course 90mph on an icy windy motorway is a lot more dangerous than 45mph in a dry, sunny town center. That's not the argument, the argument is all things being equal is doing 90mph on a 3 lane motorway more dangerous than 45mph in a busy town center? Of course it isn't, speed alone is not enough to cause an accident.
Hmmm, lets see. Your comparing 2 things. Different area, different conditions and different speeds and then claiming they are equal? :confused:

However, Lets just say, your an arrogant person that believs his abilities to drive a vehicle and stop suddenly or avoid an object are not effected by his speed. that makes no sense.

Now lets have a real test (All factors being equal):

A, 3 lane road. Speed limit is 50 miler per hour. Child runs out 20 feet in front of you. Your doing 50.

B, 3 lane road. Speed limit is 50 miler per hour. Child runs out 20 feet in front of you. Your doing 90.

See where this is going? Case closed, you cannot argue with scienctific fact. A vehicle will skid further the higher the speed when you apply the brakes and the further you travel during your response time.

BTW, I used this scenario because I have measured my own stopping distance at 50MPH and it was under 20 feet, at 90 it was not.

Dolmen

01-03-2006, 05:28 PM

Hmmm, lets see. Your comparing 2 things. Different area, different conditions and different speeds and then claiming they are equal? :confused:
Again, you've missed my point, which is that speeding isn't necessarily unsafe, depending on the situation, in your situation yes, exceeding the speed limit is going to be dangerous, guess what? In that situation I wouldn't speed, regardless of what traffic is doing, the danger to pedestrians far outweighs the danger to myself from other traffic.

Let's say you're doing 45 mph in a town center, with a 45mph limit and a kid runs out in front of you, I think we can both agree that the kid's probably getting nailed, and yet you weren't breaking the law, not speed wise at least.

Now let's say you're doing 90mph on a motorway with a speed limit of 70, how can a kid run out in front of you? There's nowhere for them to come from. You're technically breaking the law but the chances of an accident actually occuring are negligible.

Obviously doing 90mph in a 30 limit is wanton disregard for public safety and if you can point me to a post of mine where I said I happily did more than double the speed limit I'll admit my error.

Being legal and being safe are not the same thing, you can be one without the other, and if I'm forced to choose between the two I'm going with the latter.

Edit: Oh, and fyi, 50mph is about 70 feet per second, given that it typically will take you a good half a second to react and even start to apply the brakes (assuming you're in a car where you have to move your foot from the gas pedal to the brake pedal) you've already travelled 35 feet before you even start to slow down, so I would also contest your claim that you can stop from 50mph in under 20 feet, but that's just me being argumentative :)

SlowDownThere

01-03-2006, 06:06 PM

Again, you've missed my point, which is that speeding isn't necessarily unsafe,....

Dolman, you should have the courage of your convictions. You obviously believe what you say, as you've said in many times on this thread.

Go ahead and use your best judgement. But remember, no cop and no traffic judge will be impressed with your logic. But go for it if you want. Just be prepared to pat your fines.

SDT

Dolmen

01-03-2006, 06:26 PM

Dolman, you should have the courage of your convictions. You obviously believe what you say, as you've said in many times on this thread.

Go ahead and use your best judgement. But remember, no cop and no traffic judge will be impressed with your logic. But go for it if you want. Just be prepared to pat your fines.

SDT
Obviously I'm going to keep on doing what I'm doing, because I figure it's the safest way I can ride (and again I'm stating that I hardly ever go faster than surrounding traffic), if there was more training over here, I'd take it, especially if it was run by the police, sadly there isn't so I'm left to make up my own rules based on experience and previous training.

The training over here is woefully inadequate, and I think it's a little unfair to expect a weekend's bimbling around in a car park to prepare you for real world riding, these are the safest rules I've figured out after 8 years in the saddle in everything from deserted rural country lanes to ultra dense urban riding in Central London.

I'm not the squid above who rides 150 bhp bike 30 mph faster than everyone else because someone told him it was a good idea, I'm the guy who uses his speed and agility to try to ride as safely as possible and avoid breaking the law as much as possible, but it's generally a balance between the two, you can't do both here and as they say, when in Rome...

Edit: In fact I would gladly volunteer to be observed riding around here by an LA motorcycle cop to see if they thought I was being unsafe.

SlowDownThere

01-03-2006, 10:18 PM

Edit: In fact I would gladly volunteer to be observed riding around here by an LA motorcycle cop to see if they thought I was being unsafe.\

And just would that accomplish?

Would you expect a pass to speed from this LA cop?

Like I said, do what you want, just be ready to pay your fines.

AnGardaSiochana

01-04-2006, 12:29 PM

Dolman,
According to you my stopping distance is at minumum 35 when Im travelling at 50? I disagree but hey, that just proves my point more and I have shown you exactly when speed and speed alone is dangerous.

Continue doing what your doing but I hope for your sake that you never kill anyone when your speeding because all you have to back up your point is blind arrogance.

Dolmen

01-04-2006, 12:52 PM

And just would that accomplish?

Would you expect a pass to speed from this LA cop?
I would just be proving a point, that I'm at least as safe a rider as anyone else on the road. Remember, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I hardly ever exceed the speed of other traffic, if they're doing 55 in a 40, I'm doing 55 in a 40, which was the point of the entire thread to start with - that if everyone else is speeding I have to speed too or I'm the hazard.

I firmly believe in observation above all else, if I have to actually react to anything it's already too late, consequently I never ride faster than my stopping distances allow, regardless of the actual posted limit.
Dolman,
According to you my stopping distance is at minumum 35 when Im travelling at 50? I disagree but hey, that just proves my point more and I have shown you exactly when speed and speed alone is dangerous.
It's not arrogance or ignorance on my part, I assure you, I'm talking physical reality here, it takes you 35 feet just to get your foot on the brake pedal, professional drag racers have a reaction time of say 0.4s and they're expecting the green light, but in that 0.4s you've already travelled 30 feet.

The highway code says the stopping distance from 50mph is 175 feet, you're trying to say you can do it in 20? Even assuming you had a reaction time of nothing, and I mean 0, you're still talking a physical impossibility.

To stop from 50 mph in 20 feet you'd be undergoing a deceleration of just under 4g, which is impossible unless you're driving a car with aerodynamic downforce equivalent to 4 times the mass of the car (and for the record, even an F1 car doesn't generate that kind of downforce, not at 50mph anyway), without downforce, a high end sports car with 4 huge sticky tires, *might* brake or corner at 1.1-1.2g, but 4g? No chance.

.. and you're saying I'm overestimating my abilities? The only way you're stopping from 50mph in 20 feet is by hitting something.

Bodie

01-04-2006, 01:06 PM

Dolmen

01-04-2006, 01:37 PM

Why is any real law enforcment officer offering to argue with this OFFENDER and future body bag tenant ?? Come on guys in time at 85 once he lays it down he's done even with a helmet he's road kill .... So why try to reason with him ????? Just roll up take pictures, have a good laugh and let the coronor scarp the road and FD hose it down.
Ok Bodie, I'll make you a deal, if you can get everyone else in Los Angeles to obey the speed limit, I will too, how's that?

Hell, if you can just get the majority to obey the speed limit, I promise to slow down :)

AnGardaSiochana

01-04-2006, 01:45 PM

Why is any real law enforcment officer offering to argue with this OFFENDER and future body bag tenant ?? Come on guys in time at 85 once he lays it down he's done even with a helmet he's road kill .... So why try to reason with him ????? Just roll up take pictures, have a good laugh and let the coronor scarp the road and FD hose it down.

Your right, dont know what im thinking.

Dolman,
175 feet to stop at 50 mph, whos point does that prove about speeding? Think about it jackass, your the one claiming you can speed safely. My point is you cannot as your stopping distance increases more than your speed therefore I am correct. End debate, thanks for makign it so easy.

Wile E. Coyote

01-04-2006, 01:46 PM

... if you can get everyone else in Los Angeles to obey the speed limit, I will too...

A co-worker of mine worked for LA County, and he told me they had a written policy that they had to drive 10 over on the freeways to keep from backing up traffic because of people slowing down when they saw a cruiser. Any truth to that (he left there 10 years ago)?

Dolmen

01-04-2006, 02:03 PM

175 feet to stop at 50 mph, whos point does that prove about speeding? Think about it jackass, your the one claiming you can speed safely. My point is you cannot as your stopping distance increases more than your speed therefore I am correct. End debate, thanks for makign it so easy.
So what you're saying here is that it's unsafe to do 50mph anywhere, ever?

Obviously my stopping distance increases the faster I go, but if I have 200 feet of clear road in front of me, I can obviously do 50mph without worrying about hitting anything can't I ?

I don't think you've quite grasped the reality of driving in LA, it's not like the UK where I generally hardly ever exceeded the posted limit except on the odd backroad or motorway, I certainly never broke the speed limit with the regularity I find I have to here;

There's a road I travel down on my way to work each morning, it's maybe half a mile long, the limit is 30, I will generally do around 40 and I can guarantee that by the time I reach my turnoff I will have been passed by half a dozen cars all doing 50 and I'll have at least 3 cars bumper to bumper behind me.

I'm not even close to being the worst offender for speed in this city.

DukeFan

01-04-2006, 04:05 PM

If you would like to see the inside of a body bag then keep on speeding.

If your'll more worried about being hit by cars that may hit you from the rear then buy a suv.

Bodie

01-04-2006, 04:16 PM

Just one at a time and those we can't stop the pavement will, or a big truck or a little old lady changing lanes at 45 MPH , or a rabbit or cat running across the road or any other number of things that will "stop" a speeder on a bike. Because you don't understand it's not me or all then officers I have trained that you have to worry about our "stop" isn't going to kill or injure an ignorant bike rider unless of course you get a paper cut off the ticket.

I suggest keep speeding the cards are stacked against you in many many ways that you are not even looking at or considering.

e-man

01-04-2006, 04:29 PM

Why is any real law enforcment officer offering to argue with this OFFENDER and future body bag tenant ?? Come on guys in time at 85 once he lays it down he's done even with a helmet he's road kill .... So why try to reason with him ????? Just roll up take pictures, have a good laugh and let the coronor scarp the road and FD hose it down.
I was waiting for Miser Bodie to get on here and put pen to paper like this...
IBTL- Just another speed freak {I know, we all like to speed once in awhile} who wants permission blah blahblah to speed.
Its been said before, DO what u gonna do BUT be prepared to pay the consequences... Got any family???
IBTL--- Glad your back Bodie

Dolmen

01-04-2006, 05:22 PM

Actually I was just looking for input from local cops as to whether they use the fact that everyone here speeds to pull over whoever they want to.

Most of the CA officers told me what I wanted to know, that it's pretty much tolerated and unless I'm actually moving faster than everyone else or being a hazard by weaving etc I'm not likely to get pulled over.

AnGardaSiochana

01-04-2006, 06:51 PM

So what you're saying here is that it's unsafe to do 50mph anywhere, ever?

Obviously my stopping distance increases the faster I go, but if I have 200 feet of clear road in front of me, I can obviously do 50mph without worrying about hitting anything can't I ?

I don't think you've quite grasped the reality of driving in LA, it's not like the UK where I generally hardly ever exceeded the posted limit except on the odd backroad or motorway, I certainly never broke the speed limit with the regularity I find I have to here;

There's a road I travel down on my way to work each morning, it's maybe half a mile long, the limit is 30, I will generally do around 40 and I can guarantee that by the time I reach my turnoff I will have been passed by half a dozen cars all doing 50 and I'll have at least 3 cars bumper to bumper behind me.

I'm not even close to being the worst offender for speed in this city.

Im familiar with motorways, rush hour and 3 lane systems and in fact, LA, Bangkok, Sydney, Cape Town and most major cities in Europe having been to these places and experienced 'metropolitan' living, considering I own a passport and have seen every continent. Look up europe ******* and see where I live, its not the UK. I dont confuse America and Canada.