Why do you avoid?

[Mem]

Do you feel you are properly prepared to deal with "mentally instable" persons when you encounter them in your duties:

Read the following if you like, it is reality, it is happening and LE will come more in contact with it then ever before.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/04/suicide.internet

Thank you for your time.

[Mem]

Thank you.

[SlowDownThere]

Ok, I have posted about mental illness in a few threads and officers run for the hills. Just for the record, why? Please do not make this a troll or "lets get her" thread. It is a simple question. I am a general public person and find certain questions on this forum seem "taboo". I am just curious as to why, nothing more. Thank you.


This reminds me of the qustions about alcoholism. Your failure to admit you have a problem is proof that you do have a problem.

Same with witchcraft 500 years ago. Failure to admit is is proof positive that your a witch. Deception is the biggest clue.

This is a LE board, not a mental health thread. Ys, we all deal with the emotionally disturbed person, and we do the best we can with them. Where I work, we deal with it quite a bit. What else can I say?

Am I supposed to dwell on it? What are you after here, a confession that we are mentally ill too?

[Tim Dees]

Ok, I have posted about mental illness in a few threads and officers run for the hills. Just for the record, why? Please do not make this a troll or "lets get her" thread. It is a simple question. I am a general public person and find certain questions on this forum seem "taboo". I am just curious as to why, nothing more. Thank you.The handling of a mental illness case is pretty much a no-win situation for most cops. First, cops get very little (if any) training in working with the mentally ill. The training is devoted to dealing with the BEHAVIORS of the mentally ill, which range from annoying to outright dangerous. Cops don't usually have any option but to treat the mentally ill as they would any other offender that was getting out of hand, and then they're attacked for not being more sensitive and therapeutic.

Some estimates place the number of mentally ill folks in American jails and prisons at one in three. No matter what the actual numbers, there are simply not enough facilities, trained caregivers, and other resources to deal with mental illness in the way it should be dealt with. There is a stigma to being branded as "mentally ill," so many people who could get treatment just avoid the label. The people who are bothered or otherwise victimized by the mentally ill (or, more accurately, the behavior of the mentally ill, as the individual often can't help but to do what they are doing) may be sympathetic to the problem, but ultimately they want someone to make the problem go away, and that job usually falls to the cop that gets the call. The cop can spend several hours trying to get the individual seen by a mental health care provider (good luck with that), and then, more often than not, be told that the person's condition is insufficient to merit holding them involuntarily, and that there isn't room at the inn, anyway. So the time spent is wasted, and the afflicted person is cut loose. Then, guess who the cop is dealing with, a few minutes or a few hours later?

When cops are dealing with people who have broken bones, or bleeding wounds, they know what to do, and they know that the problem will be handled by someone qualified to take care of it. When the mentally ill are involved, the situation is a bit like the dialogue between the cop and the medical examiner in Men in Black:

Dr. Weaver: What's with the cat?
Cop in Morgue: Well, there's a problem with the cat. Sign here.
Dr. Weaver: [signing] What's the problem with the cat?
Cop in Morgue: It's your problem.

So, don't be too hard on the cops if they don't want to address mental health issues. For the cops, there's a problem with the cat, if you get my metaphor.

[SlowDownThere]

You said it far better than I could.

To MEM: that's what I was trying to say.

[Mem]

Thank you;

[SlowDownThere]

No confession. And no you are not mentally ill nor is any LE. That is not my question. Perhaps I have failed to address this. My point is that there are lot of police situations that involve mentally ill. I have raised some but when I did they were trashed. I was interested in why? That is all. No motive here, just an interest.

As a non LE perhaps I simply do not understand. Sorry if I appear ignorant but I have yet to understand why certain questions are so attacked here. You have just done so, you have attacked. This is not about me, this is about how you deal with those you do not understand. I do not understand LE so I am here to learn. So let me. Again.......Why do you avoid the issues of how to deal with mentally ill persons?

Thank you;


We recieve some (limited) training on mentally ill people. We deal with them by taking suicidal (different from mentally ill) people to the hospital for the appropriate medical attention. We don't solve thier problems, we simply take the gun out of their hand.

We don't deal with other medical problems either. We don't deal with burst appendix, strepp throat, schizophrenia, or muliple personality disorder. the medical proffesion does. We just provide the ride.

[Tim Dees]

No confession. And no you are not mentally ill nor is any LE. That might be a little generous, but that's another topic. :)

So let me. Again.......Why do you avoid the issues of how to deal with mentally ill persons?I'm not trying to be difficult or rude here, but did you read my first response to your post? Is there some specific area that I didn't explain?

[Mem]

Ok, responses appreciated. I am not suggesting that officers act as shrinks etc. What my concern was is how quickly officers avoid the subject. A person who is suicidal/ill can turn into an handful at times or not. But knowing how to deal with them can prevent larger situations. My concern was that most departments give little training in this area as of course there are bigger things that you need to be trained it, I agree.

There is an increase in suicide and mental illness across the globe and it will touch LE naturally. Just don't ignore it as "oh crazy person, keep driving". Pay attention.

[Mem]

//////////

[SlowDownThere]

What my concern was is how quickly officers avoid the subject

I've just made three posts on the topic. I don't think I've avoided it. It's just not numero uno on my list.

[Mem]

Good point, I appreciate that you responded. Most don't and thank you. I don't expect it to be number one on the list, I only hope it is on the list at all. Happy thanksgiving.

[slopegrrrl]

Are officers really prepared to deal with the largest threat, mental illness?

Do you feel you are properly prepared to deal with "mentally instable" persons when you encounter them in your duties:



Well, here's my response. I don't believe that mental illness is THE largest threat facing police officers (while certainly a considerable one, not the largest). I feel I am 'properly prepared' to deal with 'mentally instable' persons when I encounter them as I'm 'properly prepared' to deal with any person I encounter in my duties. The most important thing to remember when dealing with anybody is that EVERYONE is a threat-only the degree differs. The second rule is to treat others as you wish to be treated as much as allowable. The third rule is to do what you must to resolve a situation to the point where POLICE intervention is no longer needed. Unfortunately/Fortunately many problems involving 'mentally ill' persons (as you call them) do not require police action. While that may seem to some in society that police are ignoring or 'avoiding' a problem, it's just reality. While we often act as garbage men, lawyers, counselors, babysitters, teachers, etc. in the performance of our jobs, we CANNOT help everyone we see or the people who truly need us will be left hanging. So yeah, when I see a 'mentally ill' person talking to themself as they walk down the street while carrying an umbrella on a sunny day....i keep driving because they don't need me--- Yet.

[deputy x 2]

Dealing with individuals who suffer from mental illness is difficult because..there is NO reasoning with them. They are always unpredictable!!! One minute they are okay, the next they are not. We often deal with independent living facilities where a number of them are "housed". When one "resident" has a crisis, it creates a domino effect with the other residents. It is not uncommon for numerous patrol units to respond for a single incident. A physical altercation always ensues.

Individuals who are mentally ill have enormous strength no matter what size they are. Plus pain compliance techniques have little or no effect. We now have less lethal force options to deal with them. A 37mm projectile seems to work really well.

If an emergency psych eval is warranted (5150 72 hour hold), the person usually is out of the psych facility within 2 hours. A revolving door with no assistance. "They" know what to say to the doctors...they know the system.

What is the remedy to this problem? Who knows? If you can figure out the answer, I'm sure all the cops would appreciate it. Avoiding the issue??? I don't think that is the case. We are putting band aids on a problem that has taken a long time to fester.

Hmmm..I would rather go to the gynacologist than deal with mentally ill people everyday. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[gotthblues]

in oklahoma you are required to take 8 hrs of continuing education for handling mentally ill every year. why avoid them, if they are "drawing attention" to themselves that requires police attention, then yes, you deal with them, just because they are sitting on the corner talking to a stop sign, does not require police action,

when dealing with a mentally ill subject that requires police action, you dont treat them any different, you read them and react, just cause they have problems doesnt mean they dont have a personality.

[Mem]

Interesting.

[L-1]

Sorry if I appear ignorant but I have yet to understand why certain questions are so attacked here. You have just done so, you have attacked.

.......Why do you avoid the issues of how to deal with mentally ill persons?

I'm at a loss to understand. All of the above responses appear to have been prompt and sincere rather than evade the issue, and I don't see any of them as attacking you. If I've missed something here, please let me know.

It's had to tell you why more training isn't given in handling EDPs because yours is kind of an open ended question. I can't give you a meaningful answer without knowing first what you believe the acceptable standard to be, and how this compares with the standards in my state. I know that my agency's academy meets or exceeds the training standards for handling EDPs set by our commission on peace officer standards and training.

After the academy is completed, our personnel receive continuous, in-service training on a quarterly basis. Because our budgets for this are limited, in-service subjects are prioritized, with the greatest amount of time and funding going to those areas that are most problematic for us. For example, officer safety is one of our biggest problems, so about half of our in-service training is devoted to that. Lesser problem areas get lesser amounts of training time and money, etc. In-service training on handling EDPs is usually proportionate the level of problems it has presented in the recent past.

I hope this is what you were looking for.

[willowdared]

Well, I read the article - since you posted the link twice.

I'm not sure how a complete failure in parenting, and the actions of an over-indulged adolescent sharpen the focus on how LE has to handle the mentally ill? Kids that play with the notion of suicide, without truly realising how permanant it is draw attention away from those truly pushed to the edge.

My agency has deputies trained as PERT - they are mental health clinicians, and can order involuntary commitals in other then life-at-risk situations. Usually, the family has refused to take the steps themselves, and they wait until critical mass is reached.

Why doesn't society make meds mandatory for those that can never be normal without it?

Why don't families realise that crazy isn't illegal, and look for the resources they really need?

Why don't taxpayers demand that there social service programs get the support they need, so LE can do the job they are supposed to do - reduce crime and protect citizens?

[Mem]

Agree, ,,,,,

[willowdared]

But I can wonder what would happen if just once, you asked "are you ok?"

Someone else might die.

[Mem]

Someone else might die.

understand.

[1sgkelly]

After you

[slopegrrrl]

But I can wonder what would happen if just once, you asked "are you ok?".

I can guarantee that every officer on this job has asked that at least once however, we can't ask it of every person every encounter. It seems that if you actually read and evaluated the replies you would see that. Because you refuse to accept what anyone has to say to you even when they take the time to explain it over and over again you are obviously nothing more than a self-centered person who will never be happy with any response you are given. So stop asking.

[Mem]

I can guarantee that every officer on this job has asked that at least once however, we can't ask it of every person every encounter. It seems that if you actually read and evaluated the replies you would see that. Because you refuse to accept what anyone has to say to you even when they take the time to explain it over and over again you are obviously nothing more than a self-centered person who will never be happy with any response you are given. So stop asking.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Mem]

[QUOTE=1sgkelly]After you

[1sgkelly]

I am not on the street, I am not LE. If you think I am crazy, well sorry. I am your average public, asking questions. If you don't like that perhaps this website should be closed to public. Why invite us in and have a "ask a cop" section if you don't want questions? What were you expecting? Welcome to the real world.

If you don't like the answers; don't ask the questions.

If you can't handle the answers go away.

[Mem]

If you don't like the answers; don't ask the questions.

If you can't handle the answers go away.


Thanks for your response.

[vsp645]

As police officers it falls on us to be community caretakers. Unfortunately it seems that alot of people in society take that to mean that we should handle all of the problems that society tosses up even though there are other branches of government specifically set up to deal with them.

I read the article. How sad. However I fail to see how I can protect someone who's murderer is themself. On this website you are posting to a group of people who deal with the intimate parts of people's lives regularly such as their deaths. Oh well,... people die. I understand that you would like us all to find compassion in our hearts for our fellow man when we find them gibbering on street corners. Like Mr. Dees said, it's a revolving door every time I try to get a mentally disturbed individual off the street I'm told that the committal must be voluntary and that if there is no pressing medical problem I must release them. The last time this happened I immediately released them and had them go crazy attacking several nurses. After placing him back in restraints I found it ironic that he still had no pressing medical injuries, although several nurses had minor lacerations. Of course then he had broken a law and I could "HELP HIM".

We are one of the few groups of people that ride the elevator of life and are able to get off on all the floors: GHETTO, UPPER CLASS, MENTALLY DISTURBED, TRAILER PARK, COAL MINERS, APARTMENT COMPLEX, HOMELESS. I would be willing to bet that we probably all have a much more personal idea and understanding of mental illness than you would be willing to give us credit for and that is fine. Sometimes all of us grow angry at a system that follows rules that have by their very nature disenfranchised some of the people they have been set up to help.

We have been trained to deal with mentally ill people. If they attack, we fight. If they are armed, we kill. If we try to get them off of a snowy street, we're told that shelters won't accept them because of their instability. When we try to get them medical help, we are told that they are not physically hurt. MEM you are preaching to the choir here. We don't avoid them at all. The world avoids them and yet expects us to put them somewhere. I suggest you find a social services message board and post there. Otherwise I can assure you we are the only "help" alot of mentally ill people ever see.

[Mem]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[willowdared]

Really? Why? Perhaps you are referring to one that is in the moment of a criminal act so that I would understand. Am I missing something? As I have said....I am not LE and this is all questions to learn by. I appreciate your reponse.

I realize that tone can be misunderstood without vocal inflection to add nuance. Do you realize your "tone" seems a little offensive? Perhaps it's not intended, but it may encourage a response in the harsh range vs temperate.

When you have limited resources, it is important to understand what purpose every public agency serves, and even the role private citizens hold.

In my agency, a family argument requires at least a 2 officer response. That's 2 officers that may be unavailable to respond, or be out of range to respond quickly to any other priority call that comes in. If you have a 911 hang-up (2 officer call) an armed robbery (2 or more officer call) and a family disturbance with someone "claiming" their relative is psycho (2 officer call) and you only have 3 officers - well, someone's life may well be on the line. It could be the officer that chooses to waive back-up in order to expedite a response, it could be the person that hung up on 911 - that may be getting raped or murdered. I'm not even including the multitude of alarm calls that come in (90% of which are false)

Since most officers are trained in CPR, they also respond to non-breathers and are often 1st to arrive and start CPR.

They are also often the first to arrive at fires, and assist in evacuations.

And they also make checks on the "regulars" that live in the encampments by the river. Usually because a "citizen" has complained.

Well beyond "the job" I reckon

[marshaldan]

I have been trained in EDP`s. So what say you now?
I was trained by the VA, who have plenty of examples.
EDP`s are a crap shoot. Oftentimes you can get through to them by empathy. Sometimes you can`t.There is little risk if it works. There is a lot of risk if it does not. As they are unpridictible by logic.
I would not recomend an untrained officer to even try it.
The knowledge burden upon officers has increased exponentially over the last twenty years. But the first cop on the scene has not changed. He brings with him the tools that he has. And he can`t know it all. Even I do not know it all.
There are tricks of the trade as in hostage negotion.
It is worth a try.

[canuck21]

You do realize that many mentally ill people call the police (specifically 911) over 20 times per day (each)? I'd like to see you answer those 10-20 calls 4-5x per week (everything ranging from broken stove to mysterious killers - almost always false) and NOT get sick of it.

I was a crisis line volunteer for many years, I do have a fair bit of training with the mentally ill. But their drain on resources (with HUNDREDS of false calls - not exaggerating) can be horrible.

[webjeep]

The city that I work in has an absurdly large population of individuals who are in need of mental assistance. A large psychiatric hospital in a neighboring community had its budget decimated several years ago and released an inordinate amount of people who should be under constant supervision back into the community because there were no funds to keep them. The majority of them came to the city where I work because the community coddles people with issues, substance abuse, mental health, criminals, etc.

We have houses and facilities all over town that are sponsored by the community service organization that "supervises" these people. I would venture to say that at least a third of our calls for service are generated by people under this organization's "supervision."

Last week I went to go help one and he wound up kicking me in the head, fracturing my cheekbone and then filing a complaint on me because I took him to jail.

I will do what I can to help people who want help. I will go out of my way to try to make things better. I am usually pretty succesful in dealing with crazy people because I think I can relate to them since I'm half nuts. I do not, however, harbor much love for people who use self inflicted or exacerbated conditions as an excuse for criminal or disruptive behavior.

As I said, I have a great deal of patience and do this job to help people. Though you can't help people who do not want help. If your condition is brought about or increased because of your own failure to take your meds, self or over medication, combining your medication with illicit drugs or alcohol then please don't expect much sympathy from me. You might be crazy, but you can still make choices. If not then you need to be supervised and should not be running around my streets.

As far as the article and suicide...

It is sad that a young person would want to take their life, but I have no sympathy for suicide. If you want to thin the herd, go for it, just do it in someone else's jurisdiction and don't put it on anyone else's conscience.

I'll be happy to talk about mental health issues. I'll be happy to address any questions that anyone may have. I will say that I do not agree in entirety with many of the conditions that the DSM IV classifies as diagnoses, if it is self inflcited it is not a disease, it is a choice, if you don't like the choice you made then seek help. I'll help you, but don't use your bad judgement as an excuse.