Learning from Tragedy

[spetactical.com]

It is important that we learn from the tragedies that have befallen fellow officers. This video shows the shooting of a Texas Trooper during a "routine" traffic stop. The training in this video does not stop at the intial shooting. Pay close attention to the response of the back up units. We use this video for training purposes and allow officers to critique it.

http://www.speforums.com/showthread.php?t=530

[Deputy_Dave]

Well, after several minutes of clearing the eyes, all I have to say is that 2nd on scene needs to find another job. As limited as the video is I have to wonder why the first deputy didn't take some other type of action? We will never know. When I watched the female deputy casually walk up to the guy with the gun I thought she was insane. 5 other l/e show up and and every body lets this guy point the rifle several times at other l/e. What the heck were they thinking. This was a justified shooting if I had ever seen one.

I would sure hope that my back up units show on scene and the guy still has the gun and fails to drop on the first warning he is made like swiss cheese.

[bowtb]

I have tried to veiw video, but cannot by this link. I also tried the website you listed, but again I was unable to download the video. Do you have a site that I can go directly to to veiw the video. I don't have dial up---Just computer illiterate..

[JinXeD]

why did the first officer allow the guy to point his rifle at him and then tell him to drop the weapon....he then kept the rifle pointed at him for a few seconds before he shot.

[bowtb]

Cancel the last post Spetactical....I was able to view the video... UNBELIEVABLE!!! It sends chills down my spine. I try not to second guess other officers in any situation, but WHAT THE @%$# was that all about? Just hope my backup takes care of business if I am ever in that situation. Thanks for the link.

[hpd3710]

Trooper Shot in Head Over Seat-Belt Ticket
Driver, 72, Said to Claim Law Violates His Rights
Aug. 4, 2000

By Richard Zitrin

KYLE, Texas (APBnews.com) -- A 72-year-old
man who insists he has a constitutional right
not to wear a seat belt shot a state trooper in
the head with a high-powered rifle after the
officer stopped him for driving without one,
authorities said today.

The trooper, 28-year-old Randall W. Vetter, is
in critical condition in an Austin hospital, state
officials said.

Vetter was in his patrol car writing a ticket for
Melvin Edison Hale of Kyle about 10:30 a.m. Thursday when Hale walked
up and shot the trooper in the head at close range, Department of Public
Safety spokesman Mike Cox said.

Hale then apparently used the radio in
Vetter's patrol car to report that the trooper
had been shot, Cox said.

He attempted to drive away, but was
apprehended about 100 yards away following
a brief standoff with police.

Second seat-belt ticket

Hale told officers after he was arrested that
he believes it is his constitutional right not to
wear a seat belt, Hays County Justice of the Peace Macel Sullivan told
APBnews.com.

This was not the first time Hale was stopped for driving without a seat belt,
Cox said. Another trooper issued him a ticket last Oct. 14 in almost the
same spot in this community south of Austin, he said.

That first ticket for driving without a seat belt apparently enraged Hale, who
allegedly pointed a rifle at an off-duty trooper when he stopped at Hale's
home early this year. The trooper, Trampas Gooding, only wanted to ask if
he could hunt on the property; Hale apparently thought the trooper was
going to serve him a warrant for not taking care of the first seat-belt ticket
he received, according to a memo Gooding wrote and circulated to police
locally.

Gooding wrote that Hale said he would use deadly force on any officer
attempting to serve such a warrant and that he would "shoot it out" with
officers.

Cox said he does not know if Vetter had read the memo.

Feud over $19,000 in back taxes

Hale, a retired crane operator and cattle rancher, also had a long-standing
feud with Hays County officials over a delinquent property tax bill and the
county had begun proceedings to foreclose on his property if he did not pay
more than $19,000 he owes for 1982-93, county Tax Assessor-Collector
Luanne Caraway said.

Hale, a lifelong bachelor, never directly threatened Caraway, but a friend
who lives on Hale's property, Ed Bullock, told her there was potential
danger if the county pursued the delinquent taxes, Caraway told
APBnews.com.

Bullock has been paying taxes on the property since 1994, she said.

Hale, who is being held in lieu of $1 million bond in the Hays County Jail, is
charged with attempted capital murder of a police officer.


This was the news article about the shooting. It says attempted murder because this story was printed prior to the officer passing away. Listen to the VERY beginning of the video. If you listen closely, you'll hear the officer make the statement, "Pulled a gun or somethin' 'ere."

Hale used a Mini 14 .223 to shoot Trooper Vetter.
Trooper Vetter fired at least two rounds from his .357 SIG pistol, between the open door and frame of his patrol unit.


Texas Department of Criminal Justice
Offender Information Detail


SID Number: 04796351
TDCJ Number: 01079452
Name: HALE,MELVIN EDISON
Race: W
Sex: M
Age: 78
Maximum Sentence Date: LIFE SENTENCE
Current Facility: POLUNSKY
Projected Release Date: LIFE SENTENCE
Parole Eligibility Date: 2040-08-03

[Centurion44]

That is the most appauling video I've ever seen. For so many different reasons.

I'm sure I've said it enough if you've read my posts before you know what I'm going to say, so I won't dwell on it: The trooper should not have even spoken. Target, front sight, squeeze.

Now the next person I'm ****ed at is the 2nd officer on scene. I want to see one officer who reads these forums to tell me they wouldn't light up the armed perp standing over the officer he just shot.

Now, being objective, I know he didn't have a chance to see everything that happened. But even if the guy standing over him wasn't the same one that shot the cop, he should have enough sense to drop a weapon if he's standing over a shot officer and he sees me coming his way. If he doesn't, may God help him.

Lastly, they let him get in the car. What the hell? It's not bad enough he just popped a cop in the head, they want to give him a chance to go back into soceity?

I will keep this deputy in my thoughts, and I sincerly hope he and his family make through this okay. But my concern is for the next officer who's gonna have to deal with a nutball like this. Guys... girls... please... don't do what these guys did.

And although no one else will say it, I will. The actions of that female officer gives good ammunition to those in law enforcement who think women don't belong. Just to affirm, this is not my opinion, but this certainly isn't killing a stereotype.

[vicmackey]

I can't believe I've never seen that one before. That is probably the worst thing I've ever seen. Every one on that scene, esp. the first on scene need to find a new job. The most painful part of that is hearing the "death snore" the officer is doing. I don't know if getting to him quicker would have made a difference. But you surely don't negotiate the weapon out of a suspect's hand while an officer is dying. All of them should be ashamed.

[Centurion44]

All of them should be ashamed.

Amen to that.

[Centurion44]

By the way, in case anyone's wondering, the Trooper died: Memorial page (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/memorial/Vetter.htm).

[hpd3710]

And although no one else will say it, I will. The actions of that female officer gives good ammunition to those in law enforcement who think women don't belong. Just to affirm, this is not my opinion, but this certainly isn't killing a stereotype.


As a female officer, I must say that her actions were definitely NOWHERE near acceptable, but that should not serve as ammunition for those who believe females do not belong in law enforcement. I have worked with several male officers since I have been on the road who, with no doubt in my mind, would have handled the situation just as she did. Being a female has nothing to do with her actions, it simply has to do with a lack of training, safety, common sense, and brains.

[Centurion44]

As a female officer, I must say that her actions were definitely NOWHERE near acceptable, but that should not serve as ammunition for those who believe females do not belong in law enforcement. I have worked with several male officers since I have been on the road who, with no doubt in my mind, would have handled the situation just as she did. Being a female has nothing to do with her actions, it simply has to do with a lack of training, safety, common sense, and brains.

Again, I agree. I'm not against female officers (just to clarify), I just know some officers that will use this video to feed their bigotry.

The mistake in this video- the inability to shoot first- was made by the initial deputy who was, of course, a male.

Anyone from that agency on these forums that could tell us what happened to the responding officers? I would hope that at the very least, they got a few days off.

[squad51]

This is a mindset issue in my opinion..the trooper who died..well he was proabbly shocked that he was getting attacked...the first arriving backup was responding to an officer down call just pulls up like anyold medical no weapon out for several minutes...I am so angry and upset by this video all of these officers need retraining at the minimum and new careers at the other end of the spectrum......

[NJladyGlock21]

Unfortunately, we see a lot of dash videos where officer's lose their lives. This video has struck every emotion in me. No words to explain. It's definately the only video I have seen where I didnt see anything go right. One bad move after another.
The first backup officer, aware an officer has been shot, pulls right up to the bastard holding a freakin rifle, gets out, no weapon out and casually walks up to the *****head??? If this officer would have done the job, the scene would have been cleared and Trooper Vetter would have had medical assistance immediately whether it be by his fellow officers or one of the rigs that was enroute/standing by.
The thing that sickened me the most is that the backup units knew Trooper Vetter was shot and needed medical assistance and they continued negotiating with this bastard to "put the rifle down".
Trooper Vetter was shot AND the bastard still had the rifle AND was scanning the backup units walking around as he pleased AND they allowed him to get back in his car and drive??? Then a backup officer blocks the car from the front so the bastard has a perfect shot on him... while another officer continues to negotiate? WTF ??
The killer had control of the scene the whole time.
The whole calvary was there and not one officer took a shot. Your brother is shot and dying and you are going to retreat, take cover and negotiate with this ****er?
Listening to Trooper Vetter's breaths become weaker and weaker, the amount of time wasted worrying about his killer... everything that took place is just sickening. I just don't get it.

[WTPD3534]

Unfortunately, we see a lot of dash videos where officer's lose their lives. This video has struck every emotion in me. No words to explain. It's definately the only video I have seen where I didnt see anything go right. One bad move after another.
The first backup officer, aware an officer has been shot, pulls right up to the bastard holding a freakin rifle, gets out, no weapon out and casually walks up to the *****head??? If this officer would have done the job, the scene would have been cleared and Trooper Vetter would have had medical assistance immediately whether it be by his fellow officers or one of the rigs that was enroute/standing by.
The thing that sickened me the most is that the backup units knew Trooper Vetter was shot and needed medical assistance and they continued negotiating with this bastard to "put the rifle down".
Trooper Vetter was shot AND the bastard still had the rifle AND was scanning the backup units walking around as he pleased AND they allowed him to get back in his car and drive??? Then a backup officer blocks the car from the front so the bastard has a perfect shot on him... while another officer continues to negotiate? WTF ??
The killer had control of the scene the whole time.
The whole calvary was there and not one officer took a shot. Your brother is shot and dying and you are going to retreat, take cover and negotiate with this ****er?
Listening to Trooper Vetter's breaths become weaker and weaker, the amount of time wasted worrying about his killer... everything that took place is just sickening. I just don't get it.

X2.....I couldn't have said it any better. That whole video is sickening. To wach the INaction of those supposed "backup" officers makes me so mad that I can't even find the words. Totally unbelieveable and those first few officers on the scene deserve to be fired immediately. If I was on that dept. I can definately say I'd be having words and possibly fists with those idiots that just stood there while a fellow trooper was dying and the suspect was walking around holding a rifle! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[spetactical.com]

I showed this video to my shift and there was a lot of yelling at the screen.

[Blackdog F4i]

Just got this from a fellow officer. I guess the one I watched has been edited because I didn't see the negotiation or the takedown.

WHY in Gods name do we continue to see videos of officers asking a suspect numerous times to drop a weapon? Is it a lack of training or a fear of being wrong? In my opinion if I confront a armed suspect and I am in a marked car in uniform he has about the same amount of time it takes me to clear leather to disarm himself. I will usually shout for the suspect to drop his weapon as I draw. If my draw is complete, my sights are on target and it is still a threat, then the only thing left to do is "press, press, pause, press" and repeat until the target is no longer a threat.

In this instance there is only one conclusion that you can draw from a suspect exiting a vehicle with a long gun. He intends to murder you. There is no conversation about that. There is no legally justifiable reason for a citizen to exit their vehicle with a weapon on a traffic stop.

This video makes me mad. No, mad does not even begin to describe the rage that I feel. I am angry at the trooper who did not act soon enough to save his own life and prevent the grief that his family now has to endure. I am mad at his agencies training program that appears to have failed to educate quite a few deputies on justifiable use of deadly force. I am angry at the courts that have made officers worry more about being sued than being killed. Lastly I am mad at the crazy old man who believed that his right to disobey traffic law was worth murdering a peacekeeper. May God have more mercy on him than I would, and let’s hope the powers that be send him to be judged.

PLEASE learn from this. Everytime I see one of these is strengthens my resolve. TRAIN like your life depends on it......it does. Decide now. Watch the video again and KNOW that you would drop the hammer. If there is ever a doubt in your mind, FIND A NEW JOB. You cannot second guess yourself and you cannot doubt. Both will kill you.

Be safe out there.

[Modzilla]

Looks like SPE wants you to join his forum, hence not uploading the vid to a site you dont have to join to view.

So i joined, i'm such a loser.....