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OfcHayes26
10-27-2005, 01:23 PM
Hey all

I am from Illinois and just recently became a police officer near chicago. My question is I have heard a lot of different view points on this topic so I thought I would throw it out there and see what you guys all think. I think it is legal to turn a traffic stop into a consent search but i am also a rookie so I am probably wrong just post your replies thanks again guys.
Peace
Be Safe
OfcHayes

shootingteacher
10-27-2005, 05:27 PM
Nothing wrong with the question.

Just remember the word "Consent", as long you ask, and the driver gives his consent, go at it. Some departments, have a consent form that the drivers would sign before you start.

tbear853
10-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Consent to search may be granted, it may also be refused, or withdrawn at any time (even if it was granted by signing a form) and if there is at that time, no other grounds for search, the search must stop.

The refusal of consent, or the withdrawal of consent alone are not probable cause to search, or to continue the search.

To be valid, consent must be freely given, and without coercion. To avoid the claim of coercion, the reason for the stop should be concluded and the papers returned to the driver along with the OL and Reg. Standing there holding a person's OL and Reg as if deciding to write or warn is not the time to ask for free and voluntary consent to search.

jeffIL
10-28-2005, 09:36 PM
I'm new myself, but my understanding is that for the most part in Illinois, the questioning must stay in line with the scope of the stop for simple IVC violations. The problem is that when you try to go from the IVC stop to a consent search it better be very clear that it has become a consensual encounter.

Citation Bob
10-28-2005, 09:52 PM
Keep in mind that the Illinois constitution is more restrictive on 4th ammendment issues than the U.S. Constitution. For Example, the Illinois Supreme court has
determined we cannot ask a passenger for ID and then check for warrants.

Check with your local State's Attorney. They will be happr to answer your questions if it means not losing a future case.

Mr. Security
10-29-2005, 02:17 AM
How does one tactfully decline a request from a LEO for consent to search?
Usually it seems to go like this:

LEO: You're not carrying any guns, knives, drugs, or anything illegal, right?
Motorist: No.
LEO: Do you mind if I look then?
Motorist: I'd rather you didn't.
LEO: Why? If you're not hiding anything, it shouldn't be a problem.
Motorist: I'm not hiding anything.
LEO: OK. So if you're telling me the truth, I can go ahead and search the vehicle, right? Otherwise, we can wait here until we get a dog.

Motorist feels pressured and capitulates. What's the problem? To me it's a matter of privacy. Also, If the officer had probable cause, he wouldn't need to ask permission. So why do some LEO's not want to take 'no' for an answer? :confused:

Kabal
10-29-2005, 09:05 AM
Points to remember on consent searches. Conclude your stop paperwork first (I know this was already said). They have to be "free to leave" for it to be a proper consent search. If they refuse consent there should be nothing left to do other than leave. For that reason, they teach in Drug Interdiction school that a consent search is your "last resort" You want to try to find some PC or something first and if all else fails try to get consent,and if they say no you are done. A lot of kunckleheads will say yes and then you find all kinds of contraband.

It was already said that consent can be revoked at any time. For it to be a proper consent search they need to be in a position to revoke consent. You can't put them in the back of your cruiser with the door shut where they can't communicate to anyone they want you to stop searching.

They CAN ask you to stop searching at any time and you have to stop. Unless you find contraband before they say stop, then it becomes a Probable Cause search.

Their consent includes any unlocked containers inside the vehicle (case law backs this up). Anything locked you need to ask additional consent to go into them.

Most importantly... NEVER search a vehicle by yourself. Too many good cops have died trying to do them. If you know in your gut there is good contraband in the car and can't get another officer to conduct a search; LET IT GO. Go home so you can catch the bad guy another day.

SammyCal1
10-29-2005, 09:14 AM
There is case law that affects NJ, but I do not know about IL. It pretty much states that you need have a reasonale and articulable suspicion that there is something wrong beyond the scope of the stop for you to even get into questioning a driver of a MV stop about a possible consent search.

That means if you stop someone for speeding, you cannot just ask if there is anything illegal in the car and ask if you can search the car even with consent unless you can state why you even started that line of questioning.

Stay safe

Sammy

USAcop
10-30-2005, 12:10 AM
1)Give back all the documents to the driver including a warning or ticket.

2)Tell the driver they are "free to go" and make sure they understand it.

3)Ask them if you can ask them some questions.

4)Ask any questions you may have.

stretch
10-30-2005, 12:39 AM
The problem is that when you try to go from the IVC stop to a consent search it better be very clear that it has become a consensual encounter.

After finishing up the traffic stop, and giving all documents back, I always used the line: "My boss is on my butt for not searching enough cars. If he dosen't hear me mark out searching a car, he'll give me a load of crap. If it's o.k. with you, do you mind if I just do a real quick 'search'. Ill be in an out, and you'll be on you're way."

Alot of people will consentto that. The supreme court says we can lie during an investigation. Be sure to use the word 'search'. We've been jammed by not using 'search', but using phrases like 'look around', etc...

Definately check with your dept directives..

t150vsuptpr
10-30-2005, 01:23 AM
Never mind.

SinePari
10-30-2005, 08:50 AM
Too much information here gang...this is a public forum!

6233108
10-30-2005, 10:31 AM
Too much information here gang...this is a public forum!\

Yeah we don't want people learning what Constitutional protections are afforded to them.

Mr. Security
10-30-2005, 06:18 PM
How does one tactfully decline a request from a LEO for consent to search?

Couldn't get any 'bites' on my question posted way back, so here's what I think I'd say:

LEO: Alright if I do a quick search of your vehicle?
Me: Wow. You're asking me to waive my 4th amendment rights. That's a serious request. You must have a good reason. What is it?
LEO: (Will not have a good reason because he wouldn't be asking for permission if he already had probable cause) :D

End of story.

stretch
10-30-2005, 09:34 PM
It's a game. They hide it from us, we try to find it.

If I'm standing on the side of the road and want to look in someone's car, I'll ask them to search it. He says no (if I have no probable cause), off he goes. He says yes, I conduct my search and either find it or don't.

Since 99.9% of the **** heads out there get over on us 95% of the time due to lack of manpower or resources, I'm going to use every tool I have.

P_B_J
10-31-2005, 11:13 PM
How does one tactfully decline a request from a LEO for consent to search?
Usually it seems to go like this:

LEO: You're not carrying any guns, knives, drugs, or anything illegal, right?
Motorist: No.
LEO: Do you mind if I look then?
Motorist: I'd rather you didn't.
LEO: Why? If you're not hiding anything, it shouldn't be a problem.
Motorist: I'm not hiding anything.
LEO: OK. So if you're telling me the truth, I can go ahead and search the vehicle, right? Otherwise, we can wait here until we get a dog.

Motorist feels pressured and capitulates. What's the problem? To me it's a matter of privacy. Also, If the officer had probable cause, he wouldn't need to ask permission. So why do some LEO's not want to take 'no' for an answer? :confused:
"Usually" based on what? Your years of experience or study on the topic? The coversation you described would likely be ruled coercive and professionals wouldn't engage in that behavior.

MY experience (I have a lot of it) is that motorists USUALLY consent.

OfcHayes26
11-01-2005, 11:34 AM
Yea I probably should have posted this on the other page.....oops my bad ... thanks for the opinoins guys.
stay safe
Chris

Mr. Security
11-05-2005, 04:36 PM
"Usually" based on what? Your years of experience or study on the topic? The coversation you described would likely be ruled coercive and professionals wouldn't engage in that behavior.

MY experience (I have a lot of it) is that motorists USUALLY consent.

They do it all the time on COPS.

ExOfficio
11-05-2005, 08:37 PM
They do it all the time on COPS.

I still think for every half-hour episode of COPS, they should show the other 7-1/2 hours of report writing.

Anyway, my ice-breaker into a car was "Do you have anything in the car I need to know about, like guns, knives, hand grenades, or rocket launchers?"

If they didn't laugh, they were usually hiding something (if I found some other way for a lawful search).

e-man
11-05-2005, 09:03 PM
They do it all the time on COPS.
Can I AXE you a question Mister Security? Are you basing your above responses on a FREAKIN T.V. show or are you maybe a wannabe cop. DOnt take the wannabe too seriously, BUT how the nuts can you post a response of how a consent question is asked on a traffic stop? Read post 6. It seems that it would appear that you have tried to get consent to search on a traffic stop you have conducted...PLEASE correct me if Iam wrong and I will offer an ....... :rolleyes: UNLESS of course those were the questions posed to YOU on a traffic stop... ;)

RECOIL4015
11-05-2005, 11:26 PM
Glad to see someone else mentions rocket launchers lol. i feel vindicated

RECOIL4015
11-05-2005, 11:31 PM
Remember That In The State Of Ohio If You Put Them In The Back Seat And You Are The Only One There They Can't Stop Consent And You Will Get Dinged In Court.

Mr. Security
11-06-2005, 03:25 PM
POST DELETED

USER ISSUED WARNING

NON LEO NOT TO POST RESPONSES IN ASK A COP

e-man
11-06-2005, 07:31 PM
Of course...as long as you don't intend to 'bury the hatchet' (or AXE) in my head after I reply :eek:

I don't conduct traffic stops and I have never been asked by a LEO for consent to search. I have only been stopped once in 25 years of driving. Although COPS is a TV show, it is filmed using actual traffic stops. Far different than fictional TV dramas like NYPD. If I am asked in the future, my answer will be no because the officer shouldn't be asking if he doesn't have probable cause to search. And, as stated above, he wouldn't have to ask IF HE DID have probable cause.

Now, how about that apology..... :D :p
COPs while nice to watch and usually good entertainment is in the end JUST THAT. I remember working with one of the Pittsburgh cops that was on COPs. He said it took about a week or so to get a 30 minute episode.
As far as an apolo.. *cough cough* ok enough said? ;) It was just the way I read your question.
ANd as far as the AXE , thats just how some peoples I haverun into in the inner city speak- AXE a quessin, AIght, know wha im sayin? No I really dont... :D

TPD Cadet
11-06-2005, 09:19 PM
It is my understanding that they can say ...
"Sure, you can search everywhere in my car except under the passenger seat."

The can set guidelines, and you must abide by them if the search is indeeed consensual. Am I right, or wrong? :confused:

cmelton_4
11-06-2005, 09:21 PM
Why not ask all they can say is no. For Mr. Security- there are many reasons we may ask for consent. There are several indicators, verbal and visual, that give us reasonable suspision.

BTW you kind of sound like a defense attorney...

Mr. Security
11-06-2005, 09:37 PM
Good officers always ask for consent first even if they have probable cause, reasonable suspicion or even a search warrant....seems that nobody owes you any apology because you don't have a grasp of the concept. Because you are not even a cop!

Never claimed to be one. The apology request was a continuation of a joke started by e-man. So.....Buzz off :eek:

t150vsuptpr
11-06-2005, 09:43 PM
I was going to post earlier (#11) but supper (a late supper at that) was waiting, and I never got back to the thread.

Let me make sure I understand the premise.

I'm told that I am free to go, my license and registration are returned to me, and then I am being asked for consent to search my car for illegal items and contraband that I know do not exist,
for consent to take my personal belongings and luggage and strew it alongside the highway while my wife and I and our puppy dog sit in tick infested grass on a hot humid day,
to consent to allow a really big slobbering dog to tear at my seats and headliner as he vaults around inside my car,
and all this so I can what, be late getting to my destination all sweaty and tick infested myself?

I don't think so. I do not consent to a search of anything. :D

Now, when I am on the searching side of things, if I ask it's because I need consent.
If I have ample PC, I do not ask as in my experience, asking often tends to make the person being asked to think maybe I don't really have ample PC. I seem to have less arguments about a search when it's a PC or "in view" based search if I just "do it" and forgo the "may I" routine. :)

Mr. Security
11-06-2005, 09:46 PM
Why not ask all they can say is no. For Mr. Security- there are many reasons we may ask for consent. There are several indicators, verbal and visual, that give us reasonable suspision.

BTW you kind of sound like a defense attorney...

You're correct. LEO's can ask. It only becomes a problem when it's asked in a way that makes the operator feel that he needs to comply.

Regarding the defense attorney part: Some of what I said did come from an attorney. Sorry ;)

Mr. Security
11-06-2005, 09:53 PM
I was going to post earlier (#11) but supper (a late supper at that) was waiting, and I never got back to the thread.

Let me make sure I understand the premise.

I'm told that I am free to go, my license and registration are returned to me, and then I am being asked for consent to search my car for illegal items and contraband that I know do not exist,
for consent to take my personal belongings and luggage and strew it alongside the highway while my wife and I and our puppy dog sit in tick infested grass on a hot humid day,
to consent to allow a really big slobbering dog to tear at my seats and headliner as he vaults around inside my car,
and all this so I can what, be late getting to my destination all sweaty and tick infested myself?

I don't think so. I do not consent to a search of anything. :D

Now, when I am on the searching side of things, if I ask it's because I need consent.
If I have ample PC, I do not ask as in my experience, asking often tends to make the person being asked to think maybe I don't really have ample PC. I seem to have less arguments about a search when it's a PC or "in view" based search if I just "do it" and forgo the "may I" routine. :)

Right on target!!! :)

Mr. Security
11-06-2005, 10:00 PM
It is my understanding that they can say ...
"Sure, you can search everywhere in my car except under the passenger seat."

I got a laugh out of that one. :D Maybe they should say: "Sure, you can search the tail-pipe while I step on the gas!" :D :D :p

OfficerDotCom
11-07-2005, 12:40 AM
Mr. Security removed for repeatedly posting replies in Ask a Cop.

TPD Cadet
11-07-2005, 10:45 AM
I got a laugh out of that one. :D Maybe they should say: "Sure, you can search the tail-pipe while I step on the gas!" :D :D :p

Of course you would have the person away from the vehicle, and backup.

But can anyone verify if what I heard is correct?
(Them setting guidelines for the search)

t150vsuptpr
11-07-2005, 11:39 AM
Sure they can set limits. They can withdraw consent at any time.

TPD Cadet
11-07-2005, 03:59 PM
Thanks. (Need 10 characters...)

mich1tex
11-07-2005, 10:32 PM
Doing radio work for one of the local hospitals on a sunday (second day of hunting season). We stop by the local PD dispatch to get the keys to the gate, the land is privately owned. We get out to the tower site and start working about a hour later the owner of the land and the sheriff deputy shows up and ask to search the vehicle for guns. I comply due to wanting to get the job done.
When on private property do the rules of consent to search change?
What would have you done?

t150vsuptpr
11-07-2005, 11:42 PM
Don't know about Wyoming.

Here, as a State Police Officer, I am also an "Ex Officio Game Warden", if the reason for my search is a game violation, then I don't need a warrant, or even PC. But I will have to be able to substantiate any claim that it is indeed a game violation that I was investigating, it's not something I can just "lay claim to" .