Grounds for Dismissal?

[BlueFlare77]

What fields on a typical ticket are essential for the prosecution? For example, if the said ticket was issued for speeding, but failed to disclose the method of determining the speed of the vehicle, is that grounds for dismissal? Let's say the pace and "radar" boxes are not checked, could that be interpreted to mean that the officer just arbitrarily determined the speed of the vehicle?

Is it possible to subpeona the video from the patrol car camera?

How likely is it for an officer to "actually" radar or pace someone if the traffic is extremely heavy (morning rush hour) and the officer is not directly behind the vehicle in question? If the officer is not directly behind the vehicle in question, then that means he radared the car from the side. Is it likely that the officer's radar reading is incorrect because that would mean the middle and right lanes of a 3 lane highway need to be clear for him to radar the car in the left lane in "heavy" traffic"?

If the officer loses sight of the vehicle, does it affect the officer's credibility? Could an officer mistakenly pull over the wrong car in heavy traffic if he or she loses sight of the other speeding vehicle?

Is it possible for the defendant to request all records such as speedometer and radar calibration documents as well as the officer's notebook/log?

[JKralC104]

Why can't people just suck it up, admit they were wrong, and pay the ticket?

[Tennsix]

Don

[BlueFlare77]

Why can't people just suck it up, admit they were wrong, and pay the ticket?

Maybe the people think the system is not really about safety and righteouness, and more about simple economics?

But regardless....that's an entirely different issue.

Let's stick to the scenario in the original post. Does the officer or the defendant have a case?

[BlueFlare77]

[QUOTE=Tennsix]Don

[Tennsix]

Traffic court is a civil proceeding. The burden of proof is a lot less stringent in civil cases. The state simply has to prove that you probably committed the alleged traffic violation. From you described, I would say that state will have no problem winning a conviction. When a person has to result to the

[Tennsix]

Of course as a forum of officers, one would tend not to help anyone circumvent the law. However, as an officer, would one tend to circumvent the law.

[QUOTE]The questions in the original thread are questions with an emphasis on procedure, and not so much legal advice.

What fields on a typical ticket are essential for the prosecution? For example, if the said ticket was issued for speeding, but failed to disclose the method of determining the speed of the vehicle, is that grounds for dismissal? Let's say the pace and "radar" boxes are not checked, could that be interpreted to mean that the officer just arbitrarily determined the speed of the vehicle?
Not grounds for dismissal. An officer is not required to check those boxes. An officer is trained to visually estimate speed.

Is it possible to subpeona the video from the patrol car camera?
Yes. However, most traffic violations are not on tape. The tape is generally activated once the officer notices a problem/violation. We do not continuously run the tape.

How likely is it for an officer to "actually" radar or pace someone if the traffic is extremely heavy (morning rush hour) and the officer is not directly behind the vehicle in question? If the officer is not directly behind the vehicle in question, then that means he radared the car from the side. Is it likely that the officer's radar reading is incorrect because that would mean the middle and right lanes of a 3 lane highway need to be clear for him to radar the car in the left lane in "heavy" traffic"?
There are several methods to determine a violator

[JHoek]

How likely is it for an officer blah blah blah...
If the officer is not blah blah blah...
Is it likely that blah blah blah...
If the officer loses sight of the vehicle blah blah blah...
Could an officer blah blah blah...
Is it possible for the defendant blah blah blah...
How likely is it for you to admit responsibility, pay the fine and be an adult?

Pretty slim is my bet

Time to grow up and not speed
You are not going to find a way to get out of a ticket from us.

[Tennsix]

For what speed did the officer cite you? What was the speed limit?

[L-1]

Goodness, you certainly ask a lot of questions.

What fields on a typical ticket are essential for the prosecution?

In California, it's the name and address of the person, the license number of his or her vehicle, if any, the name and address, when available, of the registered owner or lessee of the vehicle, the offense charged and the time and place when and where he or she shall appear.

For example, if the said ticket was issued for speeding, but failed to disclose the method of determining the speed of the vehicle, is that grounds for dismissal?

No. First, it's not required information. Even if it was, a citation can be amended to correct errors or add missing information at any time. (There's no "King's X" here.)

Let's say the pace and "radar" boxes are not checked, could that be interpreted to mean that the officer just arbitrarily determined the speed of the vehicle?

Not necessarily.

Is it possible to subpeona the video from the patrol car camera?

Yes, but it's easier to get through an Informal Discovery Request.

How likely is it for an officer to "actually" radar or pace someone if the traffic is extremely heavy (morning rush hour) and the officer is not directly behind the vehicle in question?

It's not hard for an experienced officer.

If the officer is not directly behind the vehicle in question, then that means he radared the car from the side.

Not necessarily.

Is it likely that the officer's radar reading is incorrect because that would mean the middle and right lanes of a 3 lane highway need to be clear for him to radar the car in the left lane in "heavy" traffic"?

Not necessarily

If the officer loses sight of the vehicle, does it affect the officer's credibility?

Not necessarily

Could an officer mistakenly pull over the wrong car in heavy traffic if he or she loses sight of the other speeding vehicle?

It's highly unlikely. If officers really lose track of a car (can't decide which one is which when they catch up) they usually discontinue their enforcement effort rather than chance citing the wrong person. Believe it or not, an officer's ego is rarely caught up in writing tickets. It's just a job.

Is it possible for the defendant to request all records such as speedometer and radar calibration documents as well as the officer's notebook/log?

Yes. You do so with an Informal Discovery Request. However, before you make someone's clerical staff spend an hour digging up a ton of records, first ask yourself what you are going to do with them once you get them? Once you get the speedometer and radar calibration records, what do they mean to your case? Ditto with the officer's log. Any copy you get will be highly redacted to remove the names, drivers license and vehicle license numbers of others cited on the officer's shift as the courts have indicated giving you that information violates their right to privacy. What role will a log have in your defense? What advantage will it give you?

I'm not trying to discourage you from fighting a ticket when you think you are innocent. It's just that if you get sidetracked on the minutia, you will lose the courts attention when you defend yourself, and that's bad.

I won't let you in on all of the tricks of the trade, however, its common knowledge that officers are taught to measure speed via one or more of three methods: visual estimation, pacing and radar. Visual estimation is valid as long as an officer can demonstrate their expertise to the court. Gaining that expertise is not hard. Depending on their training and assignment, most rookies out of the academy can have it down within their first month or two in the field.

[purdinpopo]

Look, it depends on if the Judge is anti-law enforcement ( :eek: Yeah there are judges that are anti law enforcement, I mean a judge is just Lawyer 2.0) I was bailiff in Court one day. Guy fighting speeding ticket, Keeps hammering trooper on Stand about his hat, Trooper keeps saying "I have no idea if I had my hat on" Judge lets it run on for a while then stops the guy, and say's "Am I to understand that the basis of your defense is that the Trooper was not wearing his hat?" (Missouri Highway Patrol has rule and is real picky about wearing hat if you get out of vehicle) Guy says yeah, Judge stops case finds him guilty and doubles fine. Guy Squeals aout increased fine, I nearly get to take him to Jail for contempt of Court.

The Moral here is if you have some picky, possibly stupid reason for fighting a ticket, tell it to your buddies, maybe tell it to your attorney, maybe discuss it with the prosecutor on your case, but do not walk into Court and annoy the Judge with having to listen to it, here he could hit you with up to $500.00 fine and send you to Jail for six months. Remember that light at the end of the tunnel you see may be an oncoming train.

[BlueFlare77]

How likely is it for you to admit responsibility, pay the fine and be an adult?

Pretty slim is my bet

Time to grow up and not speed
You are not going to find a way to get out of a ticket from us.

How likely is it for the average citizen or a law enforcement official to want to admit responsibility and accept the punishment?

Pretty slim is probably the bet for anyone.

Human psychology....both the enforcer and enforcee are not above this nor the law/procedure.

[purdinpopo]

Look, I have written literally thousands of citations, did I fill them all out exactly right, no, thats why I carry a bottle of white-out. I often correct the citations while I am writing my report, that means that the copy the violater has no longer matches what I give to the court, totally kosher.

The Court will likely not care at all that your copy does not have everything as long as the Officer has described the violation to the courts satisfaction, you will still be guilty, and as I pointed out earlier, the fine you got roadside may have nothing to do with the fine you get in Court.

I have had maybe a dozen people actually try to fight a citation in court, only twice has a judge thrown out a citation I issued, both of those were for reasons known only to the Judge, and both of those were a lay-Judge, in otherwords an elected official that was never an attorney, and they can do some real screwy things.

If you got the citation and you are guilty, pay the fine and go on. If you did not do it, call the prosecutor, yes he's the opposing attorney, but he can circle file the citation if you have a good case, why would he want to waste more time in court on a case he is going to lose. I mean if he loses a case to you in Court the Judge is going to give him a hard time when they go to lunch together.

[BlueFlare77]

Look, I have written literally thousands of citations, did I fill them all out exactly right, no, thats why I carry a bottle of white-out. I often correct the citations while I am writing my report, that means that the copy the violater has no longer matches what I give to the court, totally kosher.

The Court will likely not care at all that your copy does not have everything as long as the Officer has described the violation to the courts satisfaction, you will still be guilty, and as I pointed out earlier, the fine you got roadside may have nothing to do with the fine you get in Court.

I have had maybe a dozen people actually try to fight a citation in court, only twice has a judge thrown out a citation I issued, both of those were for reasons known only to the Judge, and both of those were a lay-Judge, in otherwords an elected official that was never an attorney, and they can do some real screwy things.

If you got the citation and you are guilty, pay the fine and go on. If you did not do it, call the prosecutor, yes he's the opposing attorney, but he can circle file the citation if you have a good case, why would he want to waste more time in court on a case he is going to lose. I mean if he loses a case to you in Court the Judge is going to give him a hard time when they go to lunch together.

Good point. It seems like in most cases, particularly traffic courts, the citation is upheld. The best course of action for the defendant is to seek an attorney and hopefully that attorney's relationship to either the prosecutor or the judge is "good".

However, if the copy of the citation that the defendant received is not clear on the method of determined the speed of the vehicle, wouldn't it be more difficult for the defendant to prepare a defense? Based on that technicality, can the defendant request a later court date so he or she can prepare a defense?

If the above scenario occurs, does the traffic court just dismiss the case in the interest of time and effort? Or is the prosecutor more likely to settle on a lesser or no point penalty.

[purdinpopo]

I was not saying the deck is Unfairly stacked against you, there are many factors which affect the belief of the violator that he is guilty of speeding.

The first is your speedometer, first of all they are not actually as accurate as you might think, the ones in police vehicles are certified and factory calibrated. Your speedo is also affected by the tires you put on your vehicle, and how old they are. putting taller tires will make you register less speed, newer tires are thicker and therefore register less speed. I pulled over a big truck for speed the driver had a governor set for 65, she was going 75, brand new tires all the way around.

Another factor is the traffic around you, if you are stopped and you were running with the pack, you feel put upon, but cops generally only stop one sometimes two vehicles, luck of the draw.

Police Officers are depending upon their speed mesurement device which they check the calibration at the begining of shift and check it again after each stop. If it is off, you do not use it.

I am perplexed by the common belief that police Officers Use false info to write tickets, I never have, even if I really wanted to. It is not worth it, I would have to go to court court on everything, I do not go very often. Not to mention if what I did led to a civil rights violation I would go to Prison.

Yes you can request a later court date, call the court.

Your copy of the citation is actually just a summons to court, the important part is the court date, and that the charge is on there. I have issued citations that the prosecutor decided that another charge was more appropriate, (after he read my report) and when the violater shows up he is charged with a different crime.

Everywhere I have worked every citation has a report that must be generated.

You could get an attorney, and he will likely get your charge reduced, and he will charge you a fee.

Most Prosecutors are willing to speak with people about traffic violations so that they can clear the court date, or at least make it shorter, they do not charge a fee, in my experience, you will often get an offer to plea to some other charge, that way the Prosecutor gets to lunch with the judge that much faster.

[t150vsuptpr]

Why can't people just suck it up, admit they were wrong, and pay the ticket?
"What you talking 'bout Willis?" :eek:






(this affliction appears to affect some members of both the public and law enforcement communities)

[Mr. Security]

"What you talking 'bout Willis?" :eek:


Careful... you're dating yourself :D