An Unnatural Disaster?

[JohnKelly]

Why did the citizens of the richest and most powerful nation on this earth, in time of disaster, turn on themselves and commit the most dispicable acts on each other and behave as what would be expected of some third world improverished country?

Does the following article provide any of the answers?

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

[MrOrange]

great link - thanks for sharing it.

[AtlCop]

Why did the citizens of the richest and most powerful nation on this earth, in time of disaster, turn on themselves and commit the most dispicable acts on each other and behave as what would be expected of some third world improverished country?

Does the following article provide any of the answers?

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

It most certainly does provide the answers. I think you will find that the people commiting the criminal activity will fall into one of two categories:

1. Convicted Felons or those with extensive history.

2. People who feed off of the welfare state like leeches.

I can say with confidence that it was not the hard-working, law-abiding Americans that have contributed to the ideals of the "American Dream."

[TXLady]

Excellent article...thanks for posting it.

[CarCop]

Agreed, excellent article.
Two things that puzzled me: 1) Why these people did not help themselves or each other allowing their only sanctuary to get so trashed. 2) Why the media felt the need to inform the "people" that government help will not stop, they will still get checks like welfare and food stamps without a lag in service.

[Washingtonian]

Why did the citizens of the richest and most powerful nation on this earth, in time of disaster, turn on themselves and commit the most dispicable acts on each other and behave as what would be expected of some third world improverished country?

Does the following article provide any of the answers?

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

Great article. It's by far the best i've read regarding the post-Katrina "events".

[Straight Up]

Great read......Thank you

[USAcop]

Anytime we have a sporting event champion we seem to have a riot in the United States.

We have at the minimum vandalism but sometimes looting with the riot.

New Orleans has one of the highest homicide and crime rates in the United States. Its not a surprise with the desperation of the people that it happened.

[Creeker]

I thought that was the best read on the "state" that I have seen in a long time.

[gotthblues]

Anytime we have a sporting event champion we seem to have a riot in the United States.

We have at the minimum vandalism but sometimes looting with the riot.

New Orleans has one of the highest homicide and crime rates in the United States. Its not a surprise with the desperation of the people that it happened.
desperation,,,what,, i am mostly in shock over the reports of sexual assaults down there,,,
i will assume for the most part that those shooting others is just because they are pieces of #^%$#%, but for all we know, some are shooting cause they dont want to get robbed, raped, or anything else, i know that if i were there with my family, and i saw a group of people other than were OBVIOUSLY military, ie- helocopter or were very well organized, i would be very very cautious of letting them anywhere near my family,,
again, the killing doesnt really suprise me,,, even if it is for food, its not right, but it is understandable, but again what gets me is that terds still have the strength to rape a woman or child???????????????????????????

[gotthblues]

just read that article,,,damn good....

[rpd1794]

In a perfect world the President would read that on live TV. Of course, if it were a perfect world...we wouldn't be in this mess :mad:

[dep4532]

My father emailed me the same article a couple of days ago, and I couldn't agree more with it.

I don't understand what's wrong with these people. Look at 9/11. Everyone banded together, brother helping brother. There was no white/black/hispanic/asian. Everyone was an AMERICAN. Now look at this clusterf***. These people are for the most part refusing to lift a finger to help themselves, blaming the federal government for not taking care of them. Yes, I have a very large problem with that.

I guess we should all be thankful that our tax dollars are going to pay for these welfare cases $2,000 debit cards.

[Creeker]

... I guess we should all be thankful that our tax dollars are going to pay for these welfare cases $2,000 debit cards.

I am sure we won't be seeing the last of sponsoring these people for a long, long time. I am sure we will be offering to move them BACK to NO after we rebuild their tenements in a few years. Not to mention the civil suits they will be filing for their grievous mental trauma that was inflicted on them by someones failure to protect them from Levee's breaking...

Just heard today that the reason that many didn't want to evacuate was because 9-1 was "check day" and they didn't want to lose out...

[gotthblues]

i dont remember where i saw this, but on the news there was a lawyer somewhere recruiting clients to sue the fed. government. :confused:

[stevec]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. That was a terrible article by the "intellectual activist."

First of all, to blame "the welfare state" for a few drug addicts and violent people makes no sense at all. The wealthy class are equally full of drug addicts and violent people. This is not a political issue or a social class issue at all. Both conservatives and liberals abuse trust, break laws, engage in violent and immoral activity. To suggest otherwise is petty and partisan.

Yes, there is a welfare state. Should we discuss why, or should we discuss why law and order broke down? They are two drastically different issues, but I suspect people are more concerned with law and order, given the audience. So let's start with why there is a welfare state, because it is related indirectly to why law and order broke down.

There is a welfare state because there is a rich man's state. (btw, I am a businesss-owner, not a crazy revolutionary.) Everything the government does, it does to give the advantage of one type of behavior over another person. For example, the developer has the advantage over the landowner; the landowner has an advantage over the renter, the renter has an advantage over no one. The less property one owns, the less the government serves you. This is a fact. Rich liberals and rich conservatives both expect the police, fire and ambulance to arrive quickly and perform flawlessly. It is only poor people who get the shafted by the government because they need a different type of service from the government. Both assume a fair amount of tax resources. Generally, in rich neighborhoods, the conflicts are quiet and subtle. In poor neighborhoods, the conflicts are on the surface. It isn't about racism, it's about wealth. OJ Leads the cops on a car chase and is respectfull arrested, Rodney King is taken out of his car and beaten. Same cops, same area, two citizens treated very differently. If the wealthy think they are doing the poor a favor, as the intellectual activist suggests, then it just shows how myopic he is.

There are, of course, lots of things wrong with the welfare state, none of which have anything to do with what happened in New Orleans. But what did happen in New Orleans? First of all, what exactly is a cops job? He is part of a system called command and control, He is, I think, the biggest victim in a series of missteps from above and below. The ultimate guy in the middle, who gets it from both directions. He tries to live in the moment and keep the peace, but the forces working against him are always motivated about something that happened yesterday and a fear of tomorrow. Just as it is easy to dismiss "looters" as a class of hoodlums, or liberals, or welfare queens, etc., that same broadstroke of bigotry is also used against cops and government and law and order. People angry at the world want to take on the world, and for the peasant that is a soldier of the Empire. The soldier of the Empire wants to keep peace in the Empire, and that means striking against those who rebel. Both sides feed the conflict. As part of a chain of command and control a cop must follow orders, and only gets the opportunity to question them later, if then, pro or con. Unfortunately, neither side can change the past. And what bigotry always remembers is the worst behavior. A heavy-handed cop may repent and a angry peasant may repent, but that happens quietly, and somebody new steps in to commit the same errors. Nothing is static, except for the systems of error.

In New Orleans, the status quo was shattered. The vast majority of people helped each other. However, the central paradox of life for a peaceful person is dealing with a violent person. Cops, like soldiers, try to ignore the moral dilemma. If killing is wrong, then why take a job that might require you to kill people? The stress of being a cop is not caused by the situations, it is caused by trying to understand the situations that you are constantly put in. The world is insane. A cop is supposed to control illegal drugs, but pushing legal drugs is equally profitable for the pharmeceutical companies as cocaine is for the cartels. It's just a business in their view, just like it is a job for you. People do what they know how to do. A drug dealer learns how to hustle so he can get out of the welfare state, he is not a lot different than me owning a small business. He has government regulations to contend with, suppliers and cusomers, cash flow problems, etc. Most people cannot run a business, they don't have the ability to wear that many hats. So they trust and follow other people's lead. Just as a cop follows a system of command and control, so don't poor people. They do what the Empire tells them to. Without currency, and a job that pays us in currency, we are all trapped. Currency is the only thing everybody accepts.

But what really happened in New Orleans and across the Gulf Coast is that we all got a good look at how the chain of command does not operate. It is a facade. Talking heads on the Sunday Morning shows suggest that we need a more centralized system, which is what FEMA was. In fact, what we need is a more decentralized system. The reason the welfare state is a failure is for the same reason many things are a failure in this country: central control is about commanding others, not helping others.

As the Empire swells in size with cops, homeland security, soldiers, etc etc, fewer and fewer people are doing productive work. Everybody is "protecting" and nobody is "producing." Anybody not selling to the military-industrial complex is starving, but as the military-industrial complex grows, there is not enough revenue to feed everyone who joins it. Thus, the powers that be and the peasants both implode. Everything each side does makes it worse for the otherside, and it just spirals out of control.

To put it another way, a society is only as strong as its weakest link. Katrina revealed how weak many many people are. But there are other weaknesses, too. Intellectual weakness comes in two forms: Pride and Fear.

We live in a country where people pledge allegience to an inanimate object, and scorn the peoplw who need help. Desperate people have always acted desperately. The American Revolution was no exception. The crushing cost of the Empire (cheap by today's standards) was perceived as too high a cost to pay for protection. As the rebels stirred, the solution by the crown was to add more protection, thus increasing the cost on the people.

We are living the same cycle today. However, there is a significant difference between today and 240 years ago. We can replace leaders and change our systems without firing a single shot, but not without first recognizing the bias inherent in the chain of command and in our own mirror.

As cops, most of you work for the Empire. Your paycheck is a form of welfare, too, just as the dollars spent on armaments are at Raytheon and elsewhere. People don't want bases to close? Why? Don't they want peace? They are afraid to make a living outside of the economy of the Empire. It isn't a guns OR butter issue, it is a simple fact. With too many guns there is no butter for anyone.

When the rebels attacked the Crown, it was the crown that caused the misery because of its economic policies trying to protect the tea companies. We do the same thing by issuing patents and copyrights. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and eventually the less rich in the middle class start getting poorer. Nobody can afford legal or illegal drugs. Complaining about the welfare state is blaming the victim.

Blaming the victim is not a very healthy attitude for a law enforcement person to have. The weak is whom you are supposed to be protecting, not the strong. Every ticket you write, every citizen you abuse, every favor you give to a friend and not to a stranger, is one more straw on the camel's back. A system that promotes favoritism cannot stand. Eventually the Empire implodes, and we are all responsible for its collapse. Cops, like the Redcoats, are just doing their job. However, the people are never a burden on the Empire, the Empire is always a burden on the people. As it was then, so it is today.

SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. 1
Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence;-Thomas Paine

[28Blue21]

SteveC ..... you, sir, are wrong. So wrong. Your post was waaaayyy too long so I will respond to just a few things.

1) These people are victims of the hurricane - on that I will agree with you. BUT, they are not victims of their lives. There are plenty of ways that they can crawl out of their squalor (sp?). Caring about an education is an EASY one. If you are a minority in this country you get it for FREE. All one has to do as a minority is care (just a little) and do average (that is right! - just average) work. The rest is given to them. Schools recruit minorities - and not for just athletics - just to bump up their percentages. But for one to take advantage of education, the ball has to start rolling at home. And we, as a society can only give them the opportunity for success. THEY have to first care. Same situation with companies - they have to keep the NAACP of their backs.

2) You talk about crime in the 2 different worlds. Yes, there is crime everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

I cannot stand anyone talking about quotas with tickets - it totally MISSES the fact that no cop has to ever make up an moving violation. There are thousands out there every day to pick from for each and every cop. Just sitting there to be written. Quotas aren't (or weren't) there for money or racism or whatever else you can think of in my opinion. I think they were (or are) there to force lazy cops to work.

SO, back on point (sorry), yes, crime in both rich and poor worlds. I would love to see rich crooks in jail for white collar crimes. But if you want to bring up drugs and class, well, let's look at that for a second.

HHMMMMMM..... I haven't been to a shooting in a drug deal gone bad in the better half of down since I have been on the job. But, yeap, have in the poorer part. HHHMMMMMM ...... I haven't been in the rich part of time because prostitutes are hanging out by the rich school playground. But, yeap, have in the worse off part. HHHHMMMMMM..... haven't gone to a call in the rich part of town where the parents left the house for a coke party with their toddlers and no babysitter. But, yeap, have gone to the poorer part because babies' mama has left to go get a fix and the house FULL of babies has no person over the age of 6 in charge. ETC, etc, etc.

Cops must first respond to the obvious crimes. And the areas of the most crime. And that means we have to hit the projects and trailer parks. That is where the worst and most crime happens. Period. And it will never - NEVER -change. Because of how the people think there. "Where is mines?!?!?!" "They are keepin us down." "It's cause we be black."

So, yes, I am sure that there are drugs in richer parts of town, but is all the other crap that comes along with the drugs in the poorer parts of town that drown the "Po-po" that keep us from finding them there.

You can lead a horse to water (or give a poor person a $2000 debit card, free housing and eductaion) ......

[28Blue21]

BTW, sorry for ranting so long.

[stevec]

SteveC ..... you, sir, are wrong. So wrong. Your post was waaaayyy too long so I will respond to just a few things.
[snip]

Quotas aren't (or weren't) there for money or racism or whatever else you can think of in my opinion. I think they were (or are) there to force lazy cops to work.

What?! You mean there are people on the police force that waste taxpayer money, that sit around and do nothing all day but push papers and avoid work? How about, that is what 85% of what the government does? (Even when they work hard.)

Yes, the poor should get an education. But what about those with an education who fail to use their brain? What about the leaders that lack courage and foresight? Can't we get them off of welfare? Men of ambition also make mistakes, and they tend to be a lot bigger.

Again, why do you pick on the weak and defend the strong? Do you know why? It's because you work for the strong.

I returned to that article's website after I posted. It is Ayn Rand's objectivisim philosophy, which basically means that Might = Right. In which case, the armed looters were just following the philosophy that was being advocated. You can't have it both ways.

The current system is based on legal plunder, and what you are suggesting is that the poor get an education so they can plunder legally, too. It can't work, it won't work, and it never has worked. Somebody has to be at the bottom of the plundering pile, and it is always the next generation. They are not invisible people, it is your kids.

Once people stop paying taxes, the empire implodes. Once people can no longer afford to pay the taxes, the empire implodes. Either way, the empire implodes. The rich avoid complying with the laws and paying taxes, how is that any different than collecting a check directly?

Like I said earlier, everybody is working for the government, directly or indirectly. It is not sustainable. Nobody is "cooperating" everybody is following.

Until you are willing to bite the hand that feeds you, then you are just another welfare case, too. In fact, the real test of your beliefs is being willing to feed the hand that bites you.

The daily paper is full of nothing, and the kids don't have textbooks. We cannot get any of the resources where they need to be, not just with welfare and Katrina. Why do we do all this printing and throw it away?

The eye of the needle has not changed its size. The proud have to come down off their peaks and join the humble, the humble don't need to join the proud. Katrina really shows what a farce the Empire is. The world-wide manhunts for Osama and Saddam was bad enough, but the growth of casinos and sports and investing is completely out of control. How do the poor "move up" when everyone is encouraging the cost of real estate to go up? Nobody can keep up with inflation, not even the Empire.

We are teaching the children to be idiots; why should we be surprised when the world is full of idiots?

[28Blue21]

Defend the strong and pick on the weak?!?!?!? That is beyond ridiculous. When a thug is arrested - and I assume that this is someone who you would consider "weak," this is a good thing. And you can twist your words however you like, but a thug is not weaker than the the person he/she robs, rapes, beats, etc. That is why he takes advantage of them - because he/she is stronger. So, in this case we are talking about physically stronger. So strength needs to be defined. Well, is is money ----- how about the athlete who beats his wife. Is it political savy ----- how about Jesse Jackson when he shakes down a large company. Is it politics ------ how about P.C. and the threats of racism that get every white person doing a tap dance.

The people who were left in N.O. at the superdome and the convention center were weak, I will agree with you on that. BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. The longer the welfare state lasts, the weaker they become. No one turns down a freebie. Especially one that they voted for themselves. It was their own choice.

The projects that I work, you would not believe what goes on. Babies everywhere, no dads in sight. Lots of "men" hangin' out instead of working. Crime is the norm. When the popo show up, its entertainment time. Of course, when it is time to take someone for a ride, racism rears its ugly little head. "Your only arresting me because I am ......" Sorry, that gets no sympathy from me. EDUCATION is an easy ride out of the ghetto. And my wife is a teacher BTW. So I know what the kids get. Lots of choices, lots of breaks, and lots of money thrown at all kinds of programs. You know what? It won't work until they (the poor) decide to get off their @sses and work. Just a little bit. And within the system. Not, "when I grow up, I want to be a rapper." It needs to be "when I grow up, I want to be a teacher (or doctor, or policeman, or lawyer or anything productive)."

Also, all democracies are destined to fail. When the people find out that they can just vote themselves all the benefits, the society fails. Or something like that. Has nothing to do with "the strong" screwing it up. Right now the welfare class is wrecking this country. And N.O. is just a perfect example.

[28Blue21]

Oh, yeah. Cops can be lazy. And they can be compassionate. It sucks giving people tickets knowing that it will have an impact on someone's life. Especially one of the "weaker ones."

[gotthblues]

You know what? It won't work until they (the poor) decide to get off their @sses and work. Just a little bit. .
i always found it interesting that a person who is unable to work and draws a free check, has a 60inch big screen in their free apartment and even though they cant work, they can fight the hell out of you, or run like an olympian sprinter. that alls gets me,,,, :confused:

[gotthblues]

It sucks giving people tickets knowing that it will have an impact on someone's life. Especially one of the "weaker ones."
i got a big azz ditto on that one,

[stevec]

Defend the strong and pick on the weak?!?!?!? That is beyond ridiculous. When a thug is arrested - and I assume that this is someone who you would consider "weak," this is a good thing. And you can twist your words however you like, but a thug is not weaker than the the person he/she robs, rapes, beats, etc. That is why he takes advantage of them - because he/she is stronger. So, in this case we are talking about physically stronger. So strength needs to be defined. Well, is is money ----- how about the athlete who beats his wife. Is it political savy ----- how about Jesse Jackson when he shakes down a large company. Is it politics ------ how about P.C. and the threats of racism that get every white person doing a tap dance.

The people who were left in N.O. at the superdome and the convention center were weak, I will agree with you on that. BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. The longer the welfare state lasts, the weaker they become. No one turns down a freebie. Especially one that they voted for themselves. It was their own choice.

The projects that I work, you would not believe what goes on. Babies everywhere, no dads in sight. Lots of "men" hangin' out instead of working. Crime is the norm. When the popo show up, its entertainment time. Of course, when it is time to take someone for a ride, racism rears its ugly little head. "Your only arresting me because I am ......" Sorry, that gets no sympathy from me. EDUCATION is an easy ride out of the ghetto. And my wife is a teacher BTW. So I know what the kids get. Lots of choices, lots of breaks, and lots of money thrown at all kinds of programs. You know what? It won't work until they (the poor) decide to get off their @sses and work. Just a little bit. And within the system. Not, "when I grow up, I want to be a rapper." It needs to be "when I grow up, I want to be a teacher (or doctor, or policeman, or lawyer or anything productive)."

Also, all democracies are destined to fail. When the people find out that they can just vote themselves all the benefits, the society fails. Or something like that. Has nothing to do with "the strong" screwing it up. Right now the welfare class is wrecking this country. And N.O. is just a perfect example.

Actually, no. I figured the people on welfare with the plasma TV's were too lazy to be a thug. I think the thugs don't get welfare. They get the girls pregnant and walk away. They feel guilty, "the man" won't give him a job or a decent wage, he is uneducated, unmotivated, and everyone gives him crap (including the girl, of course.) In his frustration and deperation, the only thing he can figure out to do is take what he needs. And so the cycle begins again. Nobody in the Empire paid any attention to him when he was a kid, but as a criminal they will spend the limit chasing him down and punishing him.

As I said earlier, cops are in the middle. The lawmakers are a bunch of morons, and you do whatever they tell you to do. That doesn't make you a moron, it makes you a victim of the same system as the person that you are hunting.

People want to be a rapper and a sports star because that is a silver bullet. It is a way out of town. Thay want to get out as badly as you don't want to be there.

The thugs are physically stronger, but they are also mentally weaker. (That describes cops sometimes, too, doesn't it?) Welfare can only feed people, it can't make them wise. It is perpetual "emergency planning" because the people with the resources (the strong) don't want to deal with these issues honestly or question their own choices. (that would be your employer, me the citizen, of which you are one, too.)

The weak cannot screw up the system, they don't have the authority to do so. Like the old saying, a fish rots from its head. If you want to get rid of the welfare state, then you must also be willing to get rid of the police state, and our total war economy. Standing armies are very expensive to maintain, and if you are on the street, then you are at the lowest level. (which is also the most important, even though you get paid the least)

I agree that democracies may be destined to fail, but I don't want to give up without a fight. I think our best days lay ahead of us, but we have to give up the Blame Game and see the contradictions within the system (and our mirror) for what they are.

Sports is the opiate of the masses. Just as in the days of Socrates, the athletes are feted and the wise are crucified. Different millenium, similar flaws. Is it inherent in democracy? And that is only the tip of the ice berg regarding similarities.

What do you do when you wake up one day and discover that everything you believe is a lie? Suddenly the world is not so simple...

Look at the list of welfare queens that have run the country for the last 240 years. How many generals and soldiers have been elected to office? Who are you talking about when you say When the people find out that they can just vote themselves all the benefits, the society fails.?

Look around. We build monuments, have holidays, we give everyone who works for the Empire special privileges (separate from the ones they take.) We call them heroes. We don't use the words royalty or king or prince, but that is how certain people are regarded, and they get the budget with full honors along with it.

The more things go wrong, the more people expect the government to fix it, which, of course, makes the government bigger and the problem worse. (Katrina and 9/11 for example) It never seems to dawn on people that the Empire is a large part of the problem, too.

I am guessing from what you said that all your household income comes from other people's taxes, and yet you complain about other people living off the largesse of the government. Anything that the government decides to do (or is forced upon it) can be called a "public service." If you don't question your view of the small stuff, then how will you question the big stuff?

Have you ever read Orwell's 1984? There are a few terms you should try to understand: doublethink, groupthink and thoughtcrime.

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

Education is indoctrination, too.

Chances are your job and your wife's job have both evolved. Everyone is trying to watch you watch others, and somebody will be appointed to watch them watching you. Homeland Security Blankets will watch the FBI and the CIA and the NSA will watch them while they watch the state police watch the local police watch the security company while the lobbyists watch the lawmakers and the lawmakers watch the polls and the citizens watch their bank account and the banks watch their profit line and so on ad nauseum. Everybody is paranoid. This is truely the land of Big Brother. Lots of eyes, but nothing worth watching. Everybody is afraid to not do as the Romans do in the new Roman Empire.

The world is absurd enough. Don't take away what little the poor have, unless you are willing to give up your freebies, too. Go make your living outside the Empire for a while, and see how easy it is to survive by being honest and fair. (It's hard enough to do that within the Empire, isn't it?)

[28Blue21]

Ok, let's get something straight. You are implying that teaching and policing are jobs that equate to welfare because they are governmental jobs. That makes about ZERO sense. Yeah, let's just get rid of cops and teachers and all be in business for ourselves. By the way, I have worked in other fields. I have a degree in computer science and was a programmer for a major company before I was a cop. I also served in the military (another one of your "welfare" jobs I guess). I actually like this job and feel that I have a greater impact on society now. Not just bringing home a paycheck, but actually making a (small) difference.

Who the heck should teach kids? The welfare queens? And I am not talking morals and values - that SHOULD come from home. AND THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES. The weak ..... whatever you want to call them. They - "the weak" - all have CHOICE. They teach good strong morals and values and their children WILL succeed. With private sectror jobs, their own private businesses or even - gasp - a government job.

Yes, I have read 1984. Twice. Interesting and a decent read especially for an 8th grader. Looking glass into all things that we have or will become - NOT. But sure, I will give it a few nods. Political correctness. Control or more correctly influence of tv/entertainment. Oh, yeah ..... missiles. He foresaw missiles.

The problem with the government that I see is that it has been allowed to grow into a big fat blob. BECAUSE too many lazy people want it to do everything for them. And I have witnessed and witness it now at work everytime I run across a welfare bum. Not someone who is down on their luck. Not a hurricane victim. Not an orphan. A bum.

I saw it when I worked at a grocery store when I put myself through college. Mama with a buggy full of kids and another full of expensive meat and frozen dinners. Babies' daddy next in line paying for beer and cigarettes with a wad of bills. Oh, and one thing --- why is it that I rarely and I mean RARELY see any skinny scrawny ribs poking out welfare people?!?!?!?!? They always seem to me to be fat. And yes that is a generalization.

We force these people to work for their own or starve. Things will change one way or another.

[Creeker]

Whatta LOAD! I am wondering if some of those ink fumes have leached into your synaptic nerves, because I know that I am getting dizzy from this circular, simplistic thinking.

If I got it right, Cops or teachers aren't qualified to comment on the welfare state, since by your logic, any Government Job is a welfare job. OHHH, I see, you know you are right... except we have/had to WORK to get the welfare and then there was so very many opportunities to succeed in becoming unemployed from our welfare, so that we might truly be successful in receiving the jobless welfare. YEAH, I get it.

Unlike 28Blue, I have seen many Welfare recipients with ribs sticking out... with the commonly associated rock pipe or government sponsored Hypodermic quite nearby or still in his hand. The welfare queens with the expensive meats and frozen dinners in my state (until the recent EBT card change) are usually in the checkout line directly in front of their "Babieses Daddy" with the cart full of beer and Mad Dog so that she can hand him the cash change from her food stamp purchase.

I am interested in all of this speak as to the "Empire". When did Emporer Hirohito start running this joint? As soon as I find this Anti-capitolist, Socialist line of thought defined, I'll try to let you know what this cobbled together reasonong is known as. As it is, I find it extremely Fatalistic and unconducive to solving the plight of the underclass. Why don't you have some respect for them and allow them off of the Democratic Plantation? Welfare never allows for the person recieving it to think he can do anything on his own and he will always have to have "The Man" allowing him to progress. Affirmative Action has been and always will be counterproductive to everyone involved.

Signed, The Ultimate Welfare Recipient= L.E. Retired

Creeker

[stevec]

Ok, let's get something straight. You are implying that teaching and policing are jobs that equate to welfare because they are governmental jobs. That makes about ZERO sense.

Actually, it does, as surprising as that may be. I am not saying that the work is not useful or fulfilling, for either society or yourself, but as a system how we fund it does not work. Just as welfare is a system that does not work.

A neighbor can call a neighbor when they are in trouble, not just a cop. People were able to educate the next generation for thousands of years before we created public education.

The more jobs that the state does, the poorer we all become. I am not saying that the state has no role, but go back and read what Paine said at the opening of Commonsense. While he blamed the King for the situation, obviously it was not the king's fault, because the same situation exists today.

The more the government spends, the more the people are taxed. It doesn't matter is the money is being spent on welfare, guns, prisons, war, memorials, printing tax forms, etc. It is all part of the burden of government.

The exchange is that the government is supposed to do those thing that we cannot do as individuals, but that is no longer the case, if it ever was. The law now penalizes people for behavior that has no consequences. That means that the focus of government has shifted from "doing things" to "preventing things," which is fear. If the government is driven by philosophies of fear, then it will never do anything right.

Katrina is a perfect example of an investment in "preparing" without any comprehension of a solution. Everybody who was "responsible" was getting paid by the state to be responsible, but it is just a facade. It's like weapons technology, as smart bomb is only as smart as the person who uses it. Government operates by the same principles (or lack thereof.)

I am NOT making an attack on teachers and cops, but I am suggesting that your "holier than thou" attitude in regard to people on welfare and in the projects is seriously wide of the mark. The system does not work for anyone. If you want to reform welfare, then you need to reform people's attitudes about the role of/expectations of government and how we treat one another. So you should start with yourself, first.

You are in a vice getting slowly squeezed, and you are unaware of it. Or as I read elsewhere recently, you are in a pot that is slowly boiling. You may not be noticing the temperature change, but it is occuring, and cops are on the front-line when everything boils over.

Every war is a civil war, (Iraq, Vietnam, 1776) and it occurs because the police force is willing to shoot at its own citizens. (like the Redcoats were) You are a tool of the paranoia of the powers that be. Look at Katrina. Thousands of people are desperate, and we send in people with guns. Does that make sense to you?

We value property more than people, and your comment about welfare reflects the same misplaced priorities. You are serving the system, the empire and yourself (in that order) and not the people. But again, we are all trapped in this system. You are not any different than the banker, the plumber or anyone else. The currency system is the tail wagging the dog.

The government is creating the misery, not solving it. Cutting funds and adding funds is the perpetual "quick-fix." Neither will work, we need to restructure the system and our thinking.

I agree, things will change, one way or another. I suggest that we avoid previous errors and try something new.

[stevec]

I am interested in all of this speak as to the "Empire". When did Emporer Hirohito start running this joint?

The rebels overthrow the existing empire and erect a new one. It is a common cycle in history. Look at Russia for example. They overthrew the Tsar, and erected a strong central government in its place.

The colonies overthrew the King, but what did we do? We abandoned the Articles and erected a strong central government in its place. Tsar Peter built St. Petersburg, President George built Washington D.C. It is the same story. We are supposed to worship at the alter of the Washington Monumnet. What we have here is a "Religion of Government." We are an Empire, which is why we have military bases all around the world.

In our version of the Religion of Government, George Washington is the dead Pope. Washington D.C. is Rome. The crucifix is the Washington Monument. The saints are Jefferson and Lincoln. The Vatican is the White House. The Church is the Capitol building. The political parties are the nuns and the priests. The topic of the day is gossip about who drank all the wine.

Big Brother is the Empire mentality, and that is what everyone follows in 1984. Everyone walks around thinking they are better than the people of Oceania, rather than as equals.

Like a see-saw, if you put one person down, you are usually lifting somebody else up (usually yourself.) If you lift somebody else up (soldiers, washington, etc.) then you are putting somebody down.

The failure of Affirmative Action is that we needed it. Too many people in positions of influence and power were too petty to see beyond their nose to help the disadvantaged without being forced to by the government. Now everyone looks to the government to fix every wrong, but those "wrongs" were created by our parents. The children always pay for the error of their parents. Since Washington was the "father" of the country, we children are paying for his mistakes. Yes, we also gain from his gains, but we need to be willing to separate the good from the bad in his actions as well as in our own mirror.

Japan is an interesting question. In 1935 a former general wrote an essay called War is a Racket. In it, he warned that we were provoking Japan. Yet, when we were attacked, FDR called it unprovoked.

http://www.behappyandfree.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=42 (his essay)

We insisted on opening the door to trade with Japan, and a hundred years later they attacked us. Is that a coincidence? No. That is pretty much what War is a Racket is describing 100 years later, and that is what is going on in Iraq today, 70 years after that. We choose between Bechtel and Haliburten, and pretend it is a choice.

FDR was lying through his teeth. But as you go back, you see that WWII was cause by WWI, WWI was caused by the previous war, etc., etc., etc. These are all the same war. People die, but the delusion marches on.

Why did we have a fleet guarding a postage stamp in the middle of nowhere? Are pineapples a strategic national resource? Like the Roman Empire (which we are fashioned after in many ways) we are good at building roads. We even build them into space. We keep building because we are not thinking about WHY we are building, we just do what we think the previous generation decided.

As nuts as Washington was for building a city and naming it after himself, I suspect that he would call us more nuts to have so much wealth and poverty side by side, and for the wealthy to be blaming the poor. While he made a common rebel error, at least he wasn't complacent. For all of the mistakes of yesterday, some did try to fix the system and not just blame others for their own faults. And they did it by candlelight and horse and buggy. We have a media and lots of ways to communicate, but nobody is saying anything challenging that is in a position of leadership. It is the same old blame game of political bigotry without any solutions offered.

If you want power, tell people what they want to hear.
If you want to be a leader, tell people what they don't want to hear.

The government, as a system, is the ultimate purveyor of false promises.

We need to take the best of the competing political philosophies and create a new one. Everyone has something to offer, and that is the foundation of democracy. If you dismiss a social class or a political party, then you dismiss any opportunity to improve society. Being partisan makes you the problem. The north invades the south, the south invades the north, neighbor fights neighbor. Every liberator is somebody else's oppressor. Every war is a civil war.

Cops are on the front lines of Absurdia. You have my sympathy. Desperate people do desperate things, and as long as people think they are desperate, then they will act desperately.

But if you look around, it is easy to see that desperation is across all social classes. Pride and fear makes everyone nuts.

If I got it right, Cops or teachers aren't qualified to comment on the welfare state,

No, you should comment. But you should also be open to hearing an opposing view. Things are not always what they seem. Your pride and fear is real to you, too.

The problem with Empire is that it makes people NOT be self-aware. They think of themselves as being on one side of good and evil (Reagan's evil empire, for example) rather than seeing themselves and everyone else as equal individuals. That is what 1984 is really about. It is the death of the individual intellectually and the birth of political bigotry.

There are fascists of the Left and fascists of the Right. Both appear as commonsense, depending upon the flavor of one's fascism/Empire. The divisions that exist between countries also exist within each society. The fascists try to politicize everyone, the peacekeepers try to de-politicize everyone.

Every fascist needs a scapegoat. If the "invisible hand of capitalism" worked, then there would be no poor people. In fact, we all work 30 years to own a piece of land that existed for 4 billion years. And each successive generation encourages that the value of land go up, basically making it less affordable for their children. The machines are working overtime, the landfill is filling up, and some people gossip about what other people eat?

If this system makes sense, then War is Peace, Slavery is Freedom, and Ignorance is Strength and 2+2=5, just as Orwell described.

[28Blue21]

A few notes: all cultures are not equal, all wars are not about money and 1984 is a book.

No matter what anyone says, I will not equate some tribe in the Amazon rain forrest to a western state. Nor will I equate even a middle eastern country to ours. Do you know how women are treated there? 2 guys smoking and joking in the front cab of a huge truck will force a woman to ride in the bed of the truck with sheep in the middle of the winter. Just because we are supposed to believe that we are all the same doesn't make it so. Having said that our country is the most compassionate and giving of all the others. Even to those that think of us as evil.

And as far as wars - what about the Holocaust? Iraq and its mass graves? Isreal and its fight for survival? The Civil War - slavery ring a bell? Yeah, I am sure that you can explain away each with someone getting rich over it.

So, let me ask you - are you saying that we should revolt? I agree that some changes need to be made. I for one am ready to stop paying for someone else to get fat sitting on their @ss. Sure, I believe that we have allowed a sense of entitlement to become a way of life for some segments of society - at the detriment to the producers. Changes, yes, scrap it all - NO. One last thing, I would greatly appreciate neighbors taking care of the little things. Work out the noise complaint amongst yourselves and I will be tickled. But I for one don't think that "my neighbor" would be able to cope with a thief from arrest to trial to sentencing. Anarchy breeds anarchy.

[bowtb]

great article. I couldn't agree more.

[Bklngirl]

I do feel for them, but,my parents lived through 2 depressions,povety that no one in this country knows,and they didn't behave like that.I've known people that were on concentration camps,prisnors of war,didn't behave like that.

[Bklngirl]

I hate to generalize.But in Brooklyn there are a lot of Russians.When they come to this country,they get a lot of money from the government(I don't know why),They love the water,so they come here and move to Brighten Beach,gorgeous apartments,with terraces overlooking the water,that somehow only the can get.They use food stamps in the supermarkts(which costs the taxpayers billions of dollars),and theyre dripping in diamonds,Lois Vitton bags($2,000 bucks,no fakes for them!),Fur coats,etc.My friend Louise mouths off to them in the supermarket,I don't have the nerve!

[stevec]

A few notes: all cultures are not equal, all wars are not about money and 1984 is a book.

No matter what anyone says, I will not equate some tribe in the Amazon rain forrest to a western state. Nor will I equate even a middle eastern country to ours. Do you know how women are treated there? 2 guys smoking and joking in the front cab of a huge truck will force a woman to ride in the bed of the truck with sheep in the middle of the winter. Just because we are supposed to believe that we are all the same doesn't make it so. Having said that our country is the most compassionate and giving of all the others. Even to those that think of us as evil.

And as far as wars - what about the Holocaust? Iraq and its mass graves? Isreal and its fight for survival? The Civil War - slavery ring a bell? Yeah, I am sure that you can explain away each with someone getting rich over it.

So, let me ask you - are you saying that we should revolt? I agree that some changes need to be made. I for one am ready to stop paying for someone else to get fat sitting on their @ss. Sure, I believe that we have allowed a sense of entitlement to become a way of life for some segments of society - at the detriment to the producers. Changes, yes, scrap it all - NO. One last thing, I would greatly appreciate neighbors taking care of the little things. Work out the noise complaint amongst yourselves and I will be tickled. But I for one don't think that "my neighbor" would be able to cope with a thief from arrest to trial to sentencing. Anarchy breeds anarchy.

No, I am not saying we should revolt. I am saying we should use the tools we have better. Blaming the victim is not using your noggin. :-)

It is a system. Everyone abuses the system, but primarily because they think it works.

Anarchus, by the way, described laws best when told of Solon's ideas for democracy in Athens. He said, (paraphrased) "the laws are like a spider web. They hold the weak, but the strong break right through them."

You talk as if you are the "weak" but you are the guy with the gun.

1984 is a book, but doublethink is readily observable. It is holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. (Like thinking yourself weak when you are strong, a victim when you are the aggressor, etc.) As a cop, all of the conflicts you come across are based on doublethink.

If force could make people think, then the schoolyard bully would be the teacher. There is nothing to revolt against. We are our society.

The victor writes the history. George Washington was just another in a long string of morons. If the colonies lost, we would be Canada, not savages in the jungle. The idea of a "just" war is an intellectual farce. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, they all kept their slaves knowing slavery was wrong. That is how the status quo perpetuates itself. They were afraid of the "anarchy" of letting the slaves go free, but shooting at the cops (the redcoats) was a good idea.

It seems to me, that if I were a cop, then the idea of teaching rebellion as "good," or the civil war as "good" (both of which we do in grammer school) is somewhat self-defeating. (doublethink) Progress comes from peaceful practices, war is always the set back.

The Civil War made everyone a slave of the central government. There are different forms of welfare under its military-industrial complex, but we are all slaves to it. The slaves up north were freed without a shot being fired, it was an intellectual failure that we had a Civil War.

Building a memorial to Lincoln is like building a memorial to Stalin. The victor writes the history, but that doesn't mean he was right. Killing your brother to free his slave makes you a murderer. Moses made the same mistake, and spent years in exile before God tapped him on the shoulder and showed him how to do it a different way.

Pharoah, King, President. They are not very different. The rules are written in an attempt to control the government, not the people. But those in the government think that the people are "the problem" for which there needs to be "a solution." Near me they are cracking down on the panhandlers. Like Hitler, fascists go after the weakest people first. A gypsy, a panhandler, a guy on the side of the road selling his wares.

Only governments wage war and bankrupt the society. The rebel never quite understands what he is rebelling against, and the leaders are blind to their own flaws. Osama and Bush, for example, are both battling their mirror. Every self-appointed hero needs a villian. The higher you go up, the farther you fall.

Washington's hypocrisy will be revealed, as will everyone else's.

[jerrymaccauley]

Only governments wage war and bankrupt the society. The rebel never quite understands what he is rebelling against, and the leaders are blind to their own flaws. Osama and Bush, for example, are both battling their mirror. Every self-appointed hero needs a villian. The higher you go up, the farther you fall.
Washington's hypocrisy will be revealed, as will everyone else's.[/QUOTE]

OK, when are you guys gonna start to realize that this Socialist is only repeating what has been propogated for 50 years by beatniks, hippies, yuppies and Democrats. "The world is a beautiful peaceful place so, let's all hold hands and dance. It's our fault that there are bad people in the world." Obviously, those of us on the thin blue line should know better than to argue with the armchair philosophers. And sadly, I will continue to defend his right to his opinion because that is what we do.

[stevec]

Only governments wage war and bankrupt the society. The rebel never quite understands what he is rebelling against, and the leaders are blind to their own flaws. Osama and Bush, for example, are both battling their mirror. Every self-appointed hero needs a villian. The higher you go up, the farther you fall.
Washington's hypocrisy will be revealed, as will everyone else's.

OK, when are you guys gonna start to realize that this Socialist is only repeating what has been propogated for 50 years by beatniks, hippies, yuppies and Democrats. "The world is a beautiful peaceful place so, let's all hold hands and dance. It's our fault that there are bad people in the world." Obviously, those of us on the thin blue line should know better than to argue with the armchair philosophers. And sadly, I will continue to defend his right to his opinion because that is what we do.

LOL Don't forget Isaiah and Jesus, among others.

A beatnik and hippie is funny, I've been called that for a long time, even though I live a very "conservative" life.

But yuppies and Democrats? What do they have to do with each other?

You are on a thin blue line. I agree with that. When the leaders make mistakes, you pay. Which side do you choose? Your neighbor or your boss?

How come you think people holding hands and making the world a beautiful place is so dangerous? Would you rather people be angry and in your face on the street? (I talk to those people, too.)

The right to speak is not nearly as important as keeping an open mind and listening to what people say (instead of categorizing and dismismissing them) and engaging in the debate.

It's funny how I get called different names depending on where I go. The conservatives call me a socialist, the liberals call me conservative. A minute ago I was an anarchist.

Tell me, if you can, what gives the State the right to do things that the citizen is prohibited from? If it is bad for the citizen, then why isn't it bad for the State?

The thin blue line is where fear meets courage. If you protect me, then how will I learn the difference between them? Or you? How do we learn to trust each other and work together?

What really happened with Katrina?

[swarhc]

I hate to generalize.But in Brooklyn there are a lot of Russians.When they come to this country,they get a lot of money from the government(I don't know why),They love the water,so they come here and move to Brighten Beach,gorgeous apartments,with terraces overlooking the water,that somehow only the can get.They use food stamps in the supermarkts(which costs the taxpayers billions of dollars),and theyre dripping in diamonds,Lois Vitton bags($2,000 bucks,no fakes for them!),Fur coats,etc.My friend Louise mouths off to them in the supermarket,I don't have the nerve!Are you jelaouse

[28Blue21]

I tell you what, just go meet the first thug type on the street and hold his hand. Then come tell me how good it made you feel (if you have teeth left).

[stevec]

I tell you what, just go meet the first thug type on the street and hold his hand. Then come tell me how good it made you feel (if you have teeth left).

What is your point? When I run into the thug, it will just be me and him. Not being afraid of him may be my best chance of reasoning with him. At a minimum, staying calm is to my advantage.

When people are afraid, they attack and do stupid things.

Cops can be afraid too, as this story attests to.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrina.bridge/index.html

It wasn't about racism, it was about fear. Suddenly everyone is a potential "thug" just as everyone is a "racist." Fear has many faces, it is whatever the person projects. And fear generates more fear.

I got a call at my business from a school that wants all the kids to wear lanyards all day "for security reasons." But then one of the parents complained that the lanyard was a choking hazard, so now they want break-away lanyards. The kids are safe, the school is safe, but the parents and the administration are teaching the kids to be afraid. Fifty years ago, kids would "duck and cover" under their desk.

Fear just keeps piling up in layers until everyone is paranoid about everything and anything, and it masquerades as "commonsense" at every step.

The only way to stop fear is to expose it.

[gotthblues]

The only way to stop fear is to expose it.
haha, sounds like one of those "No Fear" t shirts that you used to see everywhere,

reason with a thug, terd, bad guy, i dont ever remember hearing any news reports where someone said they talked the bad guy out of mugging, killing, raping, or otherwise harming them,, but hey, you may be onto something, maybe you can do away with police altogether, who knows :rolleyes:

[stevec]

haha, sounds like one of those "No Fear" t shirts that you used to see everywhere,

reason with a thug, terd, bad guy, i dont ever remember hearing any news reports where someone said they talked the bad guy out of mugging, killing, raping, or otherwise harming them,, but hey, you may be onto something, maybe you can do away with police altogether, who knows :rolleyes:

LOL Those shirts strike me more as "I'm Stupid" since they usually have to do with extreme sports.

I'm not saying that there are not "bad guys" out there, but 85% of the time, the cop shows up after the crime. The only way to reduce the number of "bad guys" is to stop creating them, which is what makes political choices so important.

For example, if "illegal" drugs were "legal" they would be less profitable. People will always abuse substances, if they are legal or illegal, but making them illegal has wider consequences than making them legal. Compare the prohibition of alcohol to the prohibition of drugs. Restricting alchohol created criminal activity. I am not saying that you can't regulate it, so that it is made "safely" but Washington created a whisky distillering when we retired. Why would it be made "illegal" by a future generation?

Bad laws make your job harder, and every law ever passed was because somebody feared something. But laws can't solve a problem created by fear. (The Dept of Homeland Security Blankets is another example.)

At some point, we need to face up to the problem.

We have met the enemy, and he is us. -Pogo

[Creeker]

I never met a Libertarian that excused the "Gimme State" before, but that is what you are sounding like.

...And I'll let the misinformation alone about how the "Civil" War was all about slavery, too.

[ftlaudcop]

I heard from a very reliable source who saw a 25 foot deep crater under the levee breach. It may have been blown up to destroy the black part of town and keep the white part dry," Farrakhan said.

[jerrymaccauley]

Tell me, if you can, what gives the State the right to do things that the citizen is prohibited from? If it is bad for the citizen, then why isn't it bad for the State?

The thin blue line is where fear meets courage. If you protect me, then how will I learn the difference between them? Or you? How do we learn to trust each other and work together?

What really happened with Katrina?[/QUOTE]

Well, you gave the State that right. Because you either voted for or against those who were chosen to govern. I know you probably hate the thought that someone can actually "govern", but you still sleep well at night because somebody does. If not, your lack of sleep may be what leads you to believe that the 'state' is so inept. Do you think that if I stop protecting you and your rights that you will suddenly understand fear and courage? And when you finally learn the truth and discovery that you are woefully lacking in the latter, will you expect someone to come to your aid? And lastly, the similarity between a Dem and a Yuppie is that both think they control the destiny of those around them by shear will. A republican believes that he controls destiny by power. Obviously, both are wrong.

[stevec]

I never met a Libertarian that excused the "Gimme State" before, but that is what you are sounding like.

...And I'll let the misinformation alone about how the "Civil" War was all about slavery, too.

LOL I seem to be the only "northerner" I know that thinks the Civil War was wrong.

The difference between religion and politics is that in politics, the state can force you to free your slaves, or protect slavery, as it did for many years. In religion, you should want to release your slaves on your own. Also, those who hold slaves are themselves enslaved. So not only are they freeing their slaves, they are also freeing themselves.

Being a "big government" libertarian is a contradiction in terms, as you suggest, but what I am trying to explain is a finer line. The state can enslave us, but it can never make us free. To be free, we have to do that on our own.

We have taken our political experiment as far as it can go. Are we going to sit at 50/50 forever, or are we going to refine our understanding of history?

You want to cubbyhole me, I want to challenge the culture of political bigotry and the omnipotence of the State. When a bigot has all that power, bad things usually follow. And as we saw in Katrina, (and elsewhere) the state is incompetent anyway. Just as the people focus on the wrong things, so too does the State.

[stevec]

Tell me, if you can, what gives the State the right to do things that the citizen is prohibited from? If it is bad for the citizen, then why isn't it bad for the State?

The thin blue line is where fear meets courage. If you protect me, then how will I learn the difference between them? Or you? How do we learn to trust each other and work together?

What really happened with Katrina?

Well, you gave the State that right. Because you either voted for or against those who were chosen to govern. I know you probably hate the thought that someone can actually "govern", but you still sleep well at night because somebody does. If not, your lack of sleep may be what leads you to believe that the 'state' is so inept. Do you think that if I stop protecting you and your rights that you will suddenly understand fear and courage? And when you finally learn the truth and discovery that you are woefully lacking in the latter, will you expect someone to come to your aid? And lastly, the similarity between a Dem and a Yuppie is that both think they control the destiny of those around them by shear will. A republican believes that he controls destiny by power. Obviously, both are wrong.

Which "both" are you refering to, the Democrat and the yuppie OR the Democrat and the Republican?

Do you protect my rights or do you enforce the laws of the majority? As a cop, theoretically, you are not allowed to make a distinction. Theoretically, they should not be in conflict, either. As we know, when different administrations change hands, different laws are enforced, and they are also enforced with a different nuance.

The only thing that really protects anyone is everyone following the same principles. While the legal debate is about policies, (laws) usually the policy is an exemption to a principle, which is why I aksed my question.

For example, the principle is that killing is wrong, but the state grants itself an exemption. Then, it grants others exemptions, until finally there is no more principle anymore in practice. Shooting looters, for example, makes the cop the prosecuter, the judge, the jury and the executioner. But if I as homeowner do the same thing, it is a grey area.

You say that you are protecting me as a cop, but the government takes my guns away so I can't protect myself, even if I wanted one. Meanwhile the government is armed to the teeth. Who is going to protect me from my government? Part of "small government" is that it is a small police force, too, not the world police. We have lots of cops because we have lots of soldiers. The militarization of society does not come about by accident, there are forces and ideas that create this situation. The big reason for a police force originally was to keep the slaves in line. Now the taxpayers are the slaves and we are protecting lots of government installations not just people's "property."

The way I look at it, it is still a slave system. We are not "subjects" like we were under the King, but the servitude isn't very different either. It was the idea of the king's superiority that kept people mentally enslaved, and our sense of the State's superiority is keeping us enslaved today.

We pledge allegience to an inanimate object. At least when you pledged to a king, you might get a wise king. There is no such thing as a wise flag. It's a pagan ritual. The majority may think it is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it is. People argue about saying "under God" rather than if they should pledge at all. Building a city below sea level didn't turn out too good, either. Where was the health inspector to watch the government make that mistake?

The government prints the money and protects the money. The government buys and builds the guns and protects the guns. Where are the people in this equation? The priority is the money and the guns, then the laws, and only as an afterthought are the people included. Their most important role is to earn money to give it to the government. It doesn't make sense. The government created the money.

If a system didn't work 240 years ago, it isn't going to work 240 years later. I suspect there have been hurricanes since before America was created. We are ignoring the obvious.

[jerrymaccauley]

Who took your guns away? And when are you moving to Canada? And lastly, really lastly, Step away from your T.V. set and take a walk in the real world, not the one you despise or are so opposed to. Reality might surprise you.

[stevec]

Who took your guns away? And when are you moving to Canada? And lastly, really lastly, Step away from your T.V. set and take a walk in the real world, not the one you despise or are so opposed to. Reality might surprise you.

I don't have any guns. Why would I want them? Although I used to enjoy shooting targets when I was younger. I already own too much junk.

What makes you think I despise anything? I just think we live in Absurdia. (Some would call it Oz. Full of people lacking one thing: brains, courage or a heart.) It is actually a pretty amazing play. No TV required. The actors are real. I don't know how many Acts there are, but Shakespeare was right when he said that "all the world is a stage." I have to play my role too. (I am a fly in the ointment)

I am opposed to people not enjoying life. And I am opposed to systems that hurt people under the guise of helping them. There are a LOT of those. Every organization in this country has its own ointment, so we need a lot of flies to get the job done. :-)

We can't change the hurricanes, but we can change ourselves. Just click your shoes together.

It is not uncommon for the law to make a mistake.
http://www.saliu.com/socrates.html

[gotthblues]

LOL Those shirts strike me more as "I'm Stupid" since they usually have to do with extreme sports.

I'm not saying that there are not "bad guys" out there, but 85% of the time, the cop shows up after the crime. The only way to reduce the number of "bad guys" is to stop creating them, which is what makes political choices so important.

For example, if "illegal" drugs were "legal" they would be less profitable. People will always abuse substances, if they are legal or illegal, but making them illegal has wider consequences than making them legal. Compare the prohibition of alcohol to the prohibition of drugs. Restricting alchohol created criminal activity. I am not saying that you can't regulate it, so that it is made "safely" but Washington created a whisky distillering when we retired. Why would it be made "illegal" by a future generation?

Bad laws make your job harder, and every law ever passed was because somebody feared something. But laws can't solve a problem created by fear. (The Dept of Homeland Security Blankets is another example.)

At some point, we need to face up to the problem.
how in the hell is legalizing narcotics going to solve a problem, think about how many people do it now, knowing that there are consequences, and still do it, just like alcohol, if it is made easier to get, how many more people will do it, then you will have untold numbers of people that are high, that dont think rationally running around, yea, that would be better,

[stevec]

how in the hell is legalizing narcotics going to solve a problem, think about how many people do it now, knowing that there are consequences, and still do it, just like alcohol, if it is made easier to get, how many more people will do it, then you will have untold numbers of people that are high, that dont think rationally running around, yea, that would be better,

If laws had power over people's addictions, then passing a law would solve all the problems in society. However, making things unavailable just ads a criminal element to the addiction. People are addicted to money too, and the best way to make money is to sell to somebody else's addiction.

Look at at the legal addictions we have in this country: Alcohol, gambling, coffee (caffine in general, soda and chocolate), tobacco, etc. Any attempt to restrict addictive behaviors has made society worse. It would be far easier to focus on just the addiction and reduce the profit motive of the supplier.

Afterall, if you want to see people get out of the ghetto, a "business" selling drugs is pretty attractive. It isn't all that different than the Stock Market. Buy low and sell high to the next pigeon. Get him addicted to thinking he is "winning" or can win by playing. Just as we can pretend to regulate the Stock Market, we can pretend to regulate drugs. At some point people come to realize that addictive behavior is unhealthy, but in the meantime the government is not spending money chasing a fool's errand. Amway sells soap the same way the cartels sell cocaine. It's is a pyramid marketing scheme.

Take the money out of the drug game, and you change the game. If the rules of supply and demand are true, making it illegal also makes it more attractive. Also, the more expensive the drugs, the more desperate the addict will be to get more, and commit crimes to afford the habit.

Inflation is as harmful to the family food budget as it is to the addict's budget. They are directly related. The more the government wastes taxpayer money, the poorer every taxpayer becomes.

In the old days when the Kings spent hundreds of years trying to turn lead into gold. it didn't matter how much money they spent or how many alchemists worked on the problem. You can't change the laws of nature. And political restrictions and punishments are not going to change human nature, either.

The only thing that the drug wars have proven is that the drug wars themselves are a failure. Farmers will always grow what is most profitable. Dealers sell the product with the best profit margin, just like McDonald's and french fries.

As long as profit remains an incentive, the best way to control a problem is to make it unprofitable. Not personally, for an individual dealer, but across the whole industry. Putting one dealer out of business just makes another dealer busier. He sees cops as an ally when they make a big bust; it's like Target and Wal-Mart. Bad news for Wal-Mart is good news for Target. One store sells more, another store sells less.

We are all at more risk because of the illegality of the drug than because of the addiction.

[jerrymaccauley]

I wonder if Stevec is the guy on the rooftop in the Coke commercial, playing his guitar and singing about teaching the world to sing.

[jerrymaccauley]

Oh, I forgot, there wouldn't be a rooftop because some evil capitalist would be profiting off of real estate. Oh wait, I guess he wouldn't be buying a Coke either because of those greedy bottling companies.

[gotthblues]

STEVC,,,,
you are a scarey scarey naive little man,,,holly crap,,,
now i wil be the first to admit, that the gov. federal or state is not 100 % ethical in everything they do, but when is the last time that they have been accused of selling dope,, never to my memory,, illegal narcotics is not about money,,,its about public safety and keeping people healthy,,,are you that oblivious to what dope does to people, even the dope that has medical purposes that is still abused,
you sir need a reality check,

[gotthblues]

here is the last brain cell that i will waist on these matters.

simply put, people make their own decisions on how they want to live. no the fed gov doesnt really help them make good decisions, ie welfare, it always killed me when i went to the "ghetto" to take reports and "they" have no job cause they cant work, but they have brand new furniture, a 60 " flat screen, mean while their kids look llike sewer rats and smell llike one too, and
these are the same "people" that dont have a job and draw a check each month, cause they are "hurt" but when you go to arrest them, they run the 1/4 mile sprint like a gold medalist and fight you like a ncaa champion wrestler,,,THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE LLIKE THIS, i have seen "terds" come from decent and very wealthy families, and i have seen people come from poverty and make a decent living and a contribution to society, for these people, i have a tremendous amount of respect for,,,but when you get right down to it, people that have the line of thinking that you appear to have, reinforce these choices, not the rich, not businesses,

[stevec]

STEVC,,,,
illegal narcotics is not about money

Of course it is. Traveling merchants would sell snake oil, and people would get ****ed that what they purchased didn't live up to its claims. (or made them sick) They wanted the government to "solve the problem" (The idea of let the buyer beware never occured to them, evidently.)

So the government decreed what was a "good" drug, meaning it worked as claimed. But someone came along and said, hey, what about those people that like drugs? We should protect them from themselves, and so certain drugs were made illegal. (like alcohol and prohibition)

Now we are at the point where the government is trying to protect people from themselves; it has its hands full, to say the least. What was a good idea (setting standards) became a bad idea (making everything illegal outside of those standards).

Why was the guy selling snake oil to begin with? To make money.

Good intentions can make the problem worse. The more we rely on the government, and less on ourselves and each other, the worse the problem gets. Liberal social spending and conservative law and order spending both increase the size and function of the government to "protect people from themselves."

I asked a different series of questions. Why is everything so screwed up? Filling file cabinets full of meaningless documents is not a rational society. We collect information but seem to have no understanding of it.

Who prints the money? The government. What is the standard they are setting?

I am not naive. You are too busy dealing with the effects of the problems the government has created to think about the root cause. You enforce the laws; I question if they accomplish what they set out to do. I don't think they do. By making the drugs so profitable it increases the incentive to sell them.

The legal drugs and the illegal drugs drive up the costs of each other by virtue of making them legal and illegal. The more people work in the government filling out forms, the more expensive everything in society becomes. We create the inflation that makes everyone poor, and the "forms" that are supposed to solve the problem can also make the problem worse. Money is the lowest common denominator.

[PABear31]

stevec, you are pretty good at asking questions and and slinging blame at at the empire, but other than to imply that the empire is evil just by existing you have yet to suggest a single solution. Human beings are social animals and as such require some sort of structure to interact. This is an important point; we created the "empire" the "empire" didn't create us. Just as individual human beings are a work in progress throughout their lives so is society. To paraphrase Winston Churchill; " democracy is the worst form of government except every other type". The government that we the citizens empower is made up of our fellow citizens. These citizens are human beings that same as we are with all of the flaws, fears, and foibles that humans have. Do those that we have put in positions of authority make mistakes? Of course they do. Does that nasty little law of unintended consequences pop up form time to time? Sure it does. Because the people that we place in the government are no more omniscient than anyone else.

Governments exist because we created them to control human conduct. Governments have only two legitimate functions. The first is to enforce the common moral code of that society. The only reason that there are prohibitions against murder, rape, theft and any other crime that you can think of is that society has decided that it is immoral and there is a government in place that has the power to enforce that morality. The second legitimate function of government is to protect the society from those forces that wish to subvert it. Under the US system the military is limited to dealing with external forces and the police deal with internal subversion. All activities that the government undertakes are in support of one of those two functions.

The police and the military are conservative in nature. It is the function of these guardians of society to maintain the status quo. Since these institutions are conservative they tend to attract individuals who are of similar bent. For you to come into a forum dedicated to law enforcement and suggest that our shared morality; the one that binds our socety together, and the one that those of us in law enforcement are sworn to uphold is nothing less than folly.