I got promoted to K9 today.

[southladeputy]

I leave for school on Sunday. Anyone have any advice?

[SO535]

Hope you like getting bit. Good luck.

[K9 Gunner]

Good luck, you just got the best job in the business!

[scooterlee]

Enjoy.... Be patient, its not as easy as it looks.

I did it for about 6 weeks and realized that it wasnt for me.

Most of all...have fun!!

Stay Safe..

[Praetorian]

Congratulations!

Good luck!


...lucky...

[TheMP5guy]

Good luck, you just got the best job in the business!

Second best ;)

[olnacl]

nothing to see here.

[Bodie]

Life's went to the Dogs ............ Congrats ... It's a good move and your partner won't talk back or snore while it's your turn to drive.

[SoMDdep]

I'm a green handler and just received my dog almost two weeks ago. We start a 16 week narcotic/patrol school on Sept 12. I've never been so excited about anything in my life. And your right, my wife is already getting ****y with me. I've spent 15 years in uniform Patrol with 4 1/2 of those years in a decentralized SWAT team. So I'm hoping this will take me all the way to the end.

[K9 Gunner]

Second best ;)

What is first my friend? Dont say SWAT! In my time in SRT it was all training and no use.


K9 Solutions Center (http://www.dopedog.com/)

http://www.dopedog.com/images/banners/k9solutions.jpg

[sixpanel]

I just started my K9 training three weeks ago. I'm having a blast. It definitely is a lot of work. Here are some pics of my partner, Baks.


Click Me! (http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/sixpanel)

[TheMP5guy]

What is first my friend? Dont say SWAT! In my time in SRT it was all training and no use.


K9 Solutions Center (http://www.dopedog.com/)

http://www.dopedog.com/images/banners/k9solutions.jpg


Perhaps where you work it was no use. We are busy with high risk warrant service consistantly.

[formercop]

Really? Where you work? BWAHAHAHAAAA!

Just kiddin, MP5, how's things anyways.

[K9 Gunner]

Perhaps where you work it was no use. We are busy with high risk warrant service consistantly.

Yeah, you are right, we trained and trained, and were lucky to do a 2 or 3 calls a month. We have since dis-banned our team and have first responder SRT, then call an adjoining county if it goes very long.

I just never got into the SWAT thing, but I am sure it can be addicting as K9.

[TheMP5guy]

Hey formercop,

Ya K9, we are a large region (1,000,000 +) and its surprising how much **** goes on that the general public really doesn't know about. We work side by side with our K9 guy providing K9 protection on some of their tracks (mostly for robberies). Sheppards can be just plain scary when they're working.

PS - Good website, I'm going to let our K9 guys know about it.

[sixpanel]

I am not advocating the "Alpha Roll"....I never had to do that and don't believe in it but there are tactics that you can use to make it clear.

Could you elaborate? I've heard a lot about the Alpha Roll, but not of any other tactics to put the dog into his place should he buck up against me. What did you have to do? What else do you recommend?

[olnacl]

nothing to see here

[Dog Off Leash]

olnacl

I've agreed with damn near everything you've said, except that bit about "kicking & punching" your dog.

Tell me you're not serious...

How long have you been a handler???

[K9 Gunner]

Dog off leash, the kick and punch is a clear case of an inexperienced handler that does not understand dogs. They think that it inflicts pain comliance, but they have no clue how a dog thinks like most handlers or trainers. Sadly, it is more common than you think, especially in the south and east where things are a little "different".

[Dog Off Leash]

Gunner

It really doesn't surprise me. I spent 3 years as a dog handler for the Air Force - and 3 years before that as a Kennel Rat/Decoy - before separating this past March. I've seen it before, and have gone knee-deep in fools for doing it.

Oldacl

Regardless of the reasoning behind it, punching/kicking your partner is NOT acceptable! I'd love to show this thread to your Trainers.

There's other methods of correcting a dog, Jeep. You've got alot to learn about this job.

[xray12]

How are things diffrent in the south and the east? Please explain.

[K9 Gunner]

X-Ray, it is just my opinion. I teach K9 seminars all over the country, and things in the south are just done much different, which exceptions. Flordia seems to be up to speed, Virginia seems to be about 40 years behind, it varies, but overall, tatics seem to start in CA and move east. It is sad to see people like olnacl handling a dog. Sadly it is probably not his fault, he may very well have been trained that way, and does not know any better. I have seen trainers in VA and NC that are so back-woods that it is scary.

I am not throwing anyone into a catagory, just stating my opinion from teaching and owning a Police K9 training center.

[xray12]

I do agrr with you on the poor training that olnacl has received. I have never seen that done here. If California is so tactical why have they gone from bite and hold to bark and hold. Its only my opinion but I believe that is a safety issue when searching for felons. Here in Florida we still employ bite and hold.

[K9 Gunner]

I sell a lot of police dogs, and refuse to train any bark and hold for that reason. The reason CA went to that was for liability. It was implimented in the mid 90's, and they were at a point with bad bites and such that it was bark and hold, or no k9 at all. I dont agree with it either, but the fact stil remains, CA started it, and now we have bark and hold dogs in many other states.

[Pedro56]

Congrats and good luck in school

[olnacl]

nothing to see here

[Dog Off Leash]

First of all....none of you know me, so lay off the personal attacks!!! Just pathetic...someone posts something you don't agree with or understand and you feel the need to attack his charachter....says alot about you.

First off, settle down troop. Nobody's personally attacked you - we're talking about your training methods and perhaps what you were taught. I've called you a jeep - it's the same thing as "rookie" or "FNG". If you're wound so tight that it offends you, you seriously need to stop using the dope you're taking off the streets. Relax man.

Sad that I am handling a dog? **** YOU. My K9 lives in my house, sleeps with me and does just about everything with me....I probably treat him better then most of you treat your wives and children and we are a great team, taking dope and felons off the streets.

Lay off the cursing bro - it's not proving anything. "Sad.." was about your methods, not that you're handling a dog. Again, relax - we're talking about the methods you're using, not you personally. As for the whole "wife & kids" anology, thats just assinine.

Anyone here ever hear of Dr. Hilliard of the DOD (wrote some books on Schutzhund, brought French Ring to the states, so on and so on....bet he knows a hell of lot more then most of you)? He is one of the people who trained me. He is the one who showed me the trick of how to overload your K9's senses with negative stimuli....of which yelling, light/moderate kicking and punching are a part of and is only used to respond to handler aggression....which as I thought I explained pretty clearly, only happened once. You *******s have taken one incident and seem to think I beat and kick my K9 on a regular basis.....let me clear your little minds.....I DON'T. I will put it in capital letters for you morons: I DO NOT BEAT MY DOG.

Yes, I've met Doc Hilliard. I've had the joy of talking to him on several occasions while I was down at Lackland for my training. I've seen the trick of "overloading the senses" done - without the kicking & punching. There should be no reason - except possibly in an EXTREME situation - that you should *ever* punch or kick your dog. Nobody's saying you *beat* your dog. Get off your high horse dude, nobody's attacking YOU - we're attacking your TRAINING METHODS.

I was also trained by Mike Clemenson of Hill Country Dog Center in Texas. He has no problem with me or my training methods.

I don't know who he is so...cool i guess.

My K9 is trained using positive reinforcement. Any corrections that are needed are given with a quick shot from an ecollar on the lightest setting that gets a response from him or even a verbal correction if possible.

Again, something I can agree with you on. As I stated in my other post, I agree with damn near everything you've said in all your posts in this thread - the only thing I have contention with is the whole "punching/kicking" training method.

But you buffoons go on making your assumptions.

Bro, lay off the dope, switch to decaf, take a step back, inhale...exhale, rub the pressure points, "Wooosahhhhh" and all that jazz. Light up a cig or toss in a chew if that's your thing. Relax. Nobody's attacked you. Nobody's insulted you. We're talking training methods here - no more, no less.

I don't think you're a poor handler - you use what training methods you were taught. I do think, however, that you should take a step back and honestly think about what you're doing. Your dog should *NEVER* fear your hand - and by punching/kicking your dog (no matter if its in training or not), thats the association you're going to develop.

Again bro, relax. We're all handlers here. I think we can sit and discuss training methods - good or bad - without it turning into a ****ing contest or a "my pee-pee is bigger than your pee-pee" or "My trainer can kick your trainer's ***" sorta deal.

[olnacl]

nothing to see here

[Dog Off Leash]

Oln,

I can't speak for Gunner, but please re-read what he said:

It is sad to see people like olnacl handling a dog. Sadly it is probably not his fault, he may very well have been trained that way, and does not know any better. I have seen trainers in VA and NC that are so back-woods that it is scary.

What I got from this snip was that he's upset about how you were trained and the methods you're utilizing, not that it was a personal attack.

It's the methods, bro - the methods.

Now I've got no issue with grabbing a dog by its collar and hoisting it so that its feet are off the ground, giving it a shake or two, getting all in its face, and yelling and screaming. Sometimes that's necessary, and I've had to do it myself. I just dont' agree that a dog should be kicked/punched.

I have no problem with my boy being a little irritated with getting a correction, I want him to have spirit and personality....

I couldn't agree more.

However I will not, nor should any handler, tolerate handler aggression....if you do, that K9 is running the show and you probably should not be a handler.

Agreed as well - however, realize there are ways to eliminate handler aggression without punching/kicking the dog. The first dog I ever had come up-leash I "helicoptor"ed. This was during K9 school, with an 85lb shep. After that, he & I never had a problem - dog was perfect. He just needed to learn his place, and he learned it real quick.

[Dog Off Leash]

Also, I do realize that in extreme circumstances, you may need to punch/kick your dog - an out of control 90lb chewing machine is not something you want to play with. If the dog is loose (i.e. no positive control) and doing his damnedest to bite the hell out of you, well then you do what you have to do, but there's a difference when you have positive control - ahold of the leash, collar, etc - and when you don't.

[K9 Gunner]

Dog off leash, I wish I could send you rep, well said. Olnacl, maybe one day I will be as smart as you, and be able to throw around names too. For now I just have to plug along as a "jeep" LOL!!! Chill out kiddo.

To all the others, sorry for lighting a fire under this guy, I had no idea he was wound so tight.

Stay safe all.

[Dog Off Leash]

Dog off leash, I wish I could send you rep, well said. Olnacl, maybe one day I will be as smart as you, and be able to throw around names too. For now I just have to plug along as a "jeep" LOL!!! Chill out kiddo.

To all the others, sorry for lighting a fire under this guy, I had no idea he was wound so tight.

Stay safe all.

Gunner,

Thanks for the kudos man.

As for "lighting a fire" ...well...you know as well as I do that some people get defensive about their training methods. No harm, no foul.

[Skip08]

Sounds like a very anthropmorphic method to me, kicking and punching your dog to me is bloody stupid as I am not surprised that he did not latch on to you :eek: Be mechanical not emotional :D Apart from that like the other lads said the rest is ok. Anyway welcome to the world of dogs you will certainly get more out of it than dealing with grubs and sometimes superiors

I like to do simple things like stand over him (K9 between my legs as I am standing) as I pet him or when I am standing I will lean over him, place my chest on his back and make him support my weight (not all of it, but a good portion) for a little bit. Sometime I will then use my weight to cause him to go from standing to laying down.

From what I have seen, read and discussed about dog behavior, those are behaviors that dogs use to determine dominance (ever see a dog approach another dog from the side like a "T" and place his head on the other dog's back?) and are less traumatic then forcibly rolling your K9 onto his back.....which can lead to a good fight with him.

I also do not allow my K9 to put his paws on me or, if I am laying on the couch put his head on me as these actions can be construed by the K9 as exerting dominance or ownership.

I have done the above exercises (and I make them part of our playtime) everyday for about 2 years and he now has no problem showing me his belly if I need to check it (looking for ticks and such after a track or area search).

The only time I have forcibly shown dominance was the one time he tried to bite me as I was trying to get him to go into a crate (we were both new to the relationship and he was trying to be dominant) and then all I did was pick him up by his choke collar and gave him some medium strength kicks and punches while yelling "no" and "bad dog" in a loud voice. The kicks and punches did not hurt him and along with the yelling served to overwhelm his senses and helped remind him that if I go aggressive towards "Dad" bad things happen.

The yelling only lasted about 30 seconds and as soon as it was done, I put him down and said "come here", he came to me and I petted him and spoke to him in a soothing voice to let him know that everything was ok.....he leaned into me and had a look on his face like "sorry, Dad....kinda lost my mind for a minute"

Since then I have made it a habit to perform subtle, non traumatic dominance moves everyday. A dog (especially a K9) likes to know where they stand in the pack hierarchy....it helps them relax.

[Jkk-9]

I thought K-9 guys were supposed to get along? I have found that "discussing" training methods/theories is about as sensitive as racial profiling and sexual harassment.

As K-9 handlers, we all do things that we wouldn't want Joe Blow citizen to see with our dogs, out of necessity. I agree that kicking and punching is extreme, and I don't think that the "helicopter" is much more humane, although I have done it (helicopter) and it has it's place.

The bottom line is there are so many different methods of training, and so many different effective ways to get your dog to do want you want. I get what olnacl is trying to say, I don't think he is beating the sh** out of the dog, just trying to enforce his dominance. I do not agree with it, but I think it is no more brutal than other methods that are used. The one thing that would worry me is what if the bad guy you send him on, starts to punch and kick your dog while yelling bad dog bad dog, do you think that might be a recipe for a confused/ineffective dog? Maybe, maybe not, but IMHO, a good timed, crisp correction, call it whatever you want, is the most effective thing I have ever seen/used to control an alpha dog in it's futile attempt to dominate it's human.

Anyway, the best to all of you.........no matter what method you use.

[Skip08]

Good point JKK I wonder if it does cause the dog to hesitate when confronted with the same response from the agitator!

I thought K-9 guys were supposed to get along? I have found that "discussing" training methods/theories is about as sensitive as racial profiling and sexual harassment.

As K-9 handlers, we all do things that we wouldn't want Joe Blow citizen to see with our dogs, out of necessity. I agree that kicking and punching is extreme, and I don't think that the "helicopter" is much more humane, although I have done it (helicopter) and it has it's place.

The bottom line is there are so many different methods of training, and so many different effective ways to get your dog to do want you want. I get what olnacl is trying to say, I don't think he is beating the sh** out of the dog, just trying to enforce his dominance. I do not agree with it, but I think it is no more brutal than other methods that are used. The one thing that would worry me is what if the bad guy you send him on, starts to punch and kick your dog while yelling bad dog bad dog, do you think that might be a recipe for a confused/ineffective dog? Maybe, maybe not, but IMHO, a good timed, crisp correction, call it whatever you want, is the most effective thing I have ever seen/used to control an alpha dog in it's futile attempt to dominate it's human.

Anyway, the best to all of you.........no matter what method you use.

[hemicop]

I said it before & I'll say it again: '" The only thing 2 trainers can agree on is what the 3rd one is doing wrong" :rolleyes: . I don't know any of the trainers in this debate but since I wasn't at the training session I won't even comment on the "appropriateness" (?) of the correction. I do think if someone disagrees with a training method in this forum it should be discussed in depth so we can all learn how & why it is or isn't appropriate.

[flatbadge]

I leave for school on Sunday. Anyone have any advice?
Where do you go? We train in house.

[Night_Cop]

What kind of dog is referred to as a GSD?

[Mid_Ohio_Po]

What kind of dog is referred to as a GSD?

German Shephard Dog

[Night_Cop]

Thank you very much. Makes sense.

I recently got selected to handle a new bomb/patrol dog for my agency. It is going to be a black German Shep. I handled a single purp Mal. at a previous agency and really enjoyed it. I can't wait to get started with this one.

[hemicop]

Can we get back tyo training? Now if you want to throw names around, i understand the idea of overloading a dog's senses as Dr. Hilliard explained & it's been done by many peolple ( H.Reiser, B.Sturmmer,J. Ritzi if you want to start name-dropping) but I think we have to keep in mind some things. These guys work 100's of training sessions a week & often 100's of dogs many with problems to begin with. That's why the handlers go to them. These guys are expected to solve in a day or 2 problems that may have taken months to develop. Extreme problems often require extreme measures. Many dog handlers only work their own Dept.'s dogs which may be 5 or 6 at best. As trainers we need to ask specific questions about our dog(s) and what would work best.Right now I have a GSD that I would NEVER do with him what I did with my previous GSD. Why? He's a different personality! A dog ,yes, but no where near as strong, personality-wise, as the one before. I think we need to get back to the purpose of this forum. Which ,by the way, does anyone know how to teach a "circle & bark". I've seen some trainers do it, I'm just wondering how others do it?

[olnacl]

nothing to see here.

[hemicop]

Oln, you got me ALLLLLLLL wrong. Never commented on your work,never saw it & believe me, in 20yrs,I've probably seen more weird sh-- done in the interest of "training" than a lot of people running around. I was simply asking a question to learn more & get this thread back on-line. I couldn't care less who does what or says what to whom as I'll probably never see any of you guys in my entire life. I'm only here for fun,to learn a little & if someone wants to pick my (little) brain about what I've seen/done, so much the better.Sorry I offended you. :o

[olnacl]

nothing to see here

[hemicop]

Oln,not at all! Your experiences & ultimately your "war stories" in training or in the field are worthwhile to all. You're always going to run into "naysayers" & the like but keep in mind--opinions are like a--holes,Everyone's got one & they usually stink. I for one, enjoy any good "war story", especially about training.

[Goforth]

Notto hijack this thread at all but I wanted to say congrats to the new handler.

I've been working with our K-9 division off and on for the last 6 months and am looking to be the next handler in Feb.

What I'm looking for is some help with learning from the pros.

If I should start a new thread I'd be happy too but just thought I'd throw out the question....

We don't have a "class" new handlers go to. its all done in house and from it sounds like its on days off and before shift. now before anyone goes off the deep end I do not know the procedure yet as I am new to K-9 and will not even try to say I know anything!

What I'd like is somewhere to start to learn. Books, videos, seminars, brochures, rumors.... Hell I don't care I want to learn some before going into the unit.

Send all the ims and emails you guys want as I would love to talk to as many as possible about ideas!

Thanks and be safe gentlemen!

- Go

[Jkk-9]

Where in Nor Cal are you? I can recommend a great Master trainer in the area.

[Goforth]

I'm in the Stockton/Manteca/Modesto area.

I was hoping more for some books and stuff to read and learn on my own before getting into the unit.

There are a few trainers I've been working with now so its quite the eye opener.

:D

[Jkk-9]

lots of good books and info here;

http://www.hornbecks.net/hornbecks/

[Dog Off Leash]

Olnacl

Relax bro, we're cool.

Anytime you're up in the Chicagoland area, let me know - first round's on me.

Us K-9 types may gripe amongst ourselves, but when it comes down to it, we're all the same. It's all about the dogs and working with 'em to catch the bad guys. We're all here for the same reason, and we all feel strongly about our jobs. Sometimes we all just get a bit over-eager to spread the wealth. ;)

[k9cobo]

OLNACL,
If you really enjoy your position as k-9 handler ( and I believe you do ) try to think about what you posted. You got pretty angry at a lot of the people who replied but stop and think "what if the people asking these questions/replying were my city, county, state, or Lord help you the D.O.J. Better yet, try and justify your post to "any" member of the news media.
If this topic with you & your dog dies here in this forum and is never spoken about again - then the people who responded did you a very big favor.
I've handled, trained, certified, and judged P.S.D.'s for coming up on 30 years now. One thing I learned very early in K-9 was to be sure to - " think before I speak " - especially if I didn't know my audience.
I stay involved in K-9 because I still have a passion for it just like when I started. Part of what makes it great is there is always something to learn. Whether I learn from a rook or a veteran, I'm still learning ( and enjoying ).

Dog Off Leash, we could of used you in the L.E. community!

[Dog Off Leash]

OLNACL,
If you really enjoy your position as k-9 handler ( and I believe you do ) try to think about what you posted. You got pretty angry at a lot of the people who replied but stop and think "what if the people asking these questions/replying were my city, county, state, or Lord help you the D.O.J. Better yet, try and justify your post to "any" member of the news media.
If this topic with you & your dog dies here in this forum and is never spoken about again - then the people who responded did you a very big favor.
I've handled, trained, certified, and judged P.S.D.'s for coming up on 30 years now. One thing I learned very early in K-9 was to be sure to - " think before I speak " - especially if I didn't know my audience.
I stay involved in K-9 because I still have a passion for it just like when I started. Part of what makes it great is there is always something to learn. Whether I learn from a rook or a veteran, I'm still learning ( and enjoying ).

Dog Off Leash, we could of used you in the L.E. community!

Very well said, Cobo. +1. Olnacl, my offer of brews still stands bro.

As for using me in the LE community, I'm still a "young'un", and I'll be in the community eventually. Right now I'm trying to get back into shape, as I've porked out a bit in civilian life (I've been catching up on all the Chicago Pizza that I've missed in the past 6 years)! :D