movie: the great raid

[ftlaudcop]

seen this historical movie and liked it very much,
no academy award winner, but let the truth be known
how the japanese committed murder's and almost got away with
whole slaughter of a entire p.o.w. camp of americans.












www.schackdaddy.com

[Mrs. J21]

Thanks for the review! I've been planning on seeing the movie myself. Was wondering how it was going to be.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Just don't forget the cultural differences before passing judgement on the Japanese! To them, any POW has lost honor, honor is a value that has been ingraned in their society since before pilgrims ever set foot on north American soil. Had we treated our Japanese POW's in a similar fashion I don't believe they would have questioned it. Besides, I've read life at interncamps wasn't much fun either =[

[ftlaudcop]

FOR THAT TIME PERIOD....I WILL PASS JUDGEMENT...

they started a war, killed hundreds of thousands of people

worldwide, an interment camp was the hilton hotel ,

with america, we live and we learn.

and president truman did the right thing too..!............ :mad:

[AkhilleusWeeps]

You have one thing to mention as of yet which we have not done aswell. Our hands run with blood. Don't get me wrong, I'm damned proud of being American but I also have to realize that before I say "DAMN JAPS!!!" I have to remember how we came to be (native American genocide) and other questionable acts we have made.

[savage4presiden]

Besides, I've read life at interncamps wasn't much fun either =[


FOR THAT TIME PERIOD....I WILL PASS JUDGEMENT...
they started a war, killed hundreds of thousands of people
worldwide, an interment camp was the hilton hotel ,
with america, we live and we learn.
and president truman did the right thing too..!............ :mad:

You're right about the internment camps. It was practically a vacation.

I just saw the movie ten minutes ago. It was good. It may be academy award material.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

It was vacation for an American citizen to be profiled, taken from their home, forced to sell all their belongings dirt cheap to heartless people, and be denied their rights as American citizens? I'd hate to see where you and yours go for vacationing.

[ftlaudcop]

what can i say, american were a bit paranoid about these people
living here, where the majority of the people were from european
decent and shared the same religion, we knew nothing of the loyalty
of these people, just the way we do not know the loyalty of
muslim/islamic/ american, and i hate to say it...religion plays a part
in it.

god bless america !!! and our way of life........ :D

[savage4presiden]

what can i say, american were a bit paranoid about these people
living here, where the majority of the people were from european
decent and shared the same religion, we knew nothing of the loyalty
of these people, just the way we do not know the loyalty of
muslim/islamic/ american, and i hate to say it...religion plays a part
in it.

god bless america !!! and our way of life........ :D
Major BUMP!

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Word =]

I was just hoping this movie wouldn't spur ethnocentric point of views, the whole "America never does anything bad, the rest of the world is screwed and needs fixing" POV. A movie is a movie, an interpretation and overall fictional, but history reveals truth!

[savage4presiden]

It doesn't do that at all. It's basically a movie about heroism, sacrifice, and patriotism. A very worthwile non-discriminating movie. Of course it is very accurate too. So, if you're Japanese you might get offended.

[Welpe]

Something to think about...

The raid on the Cabanatuan (which The Great Raid is based on) is a true story. Elements of the 6th Ranger Battalion staged a daring raid on this camp, along with members from the Alamo Scouts and Pajota's guerillas (not an all inclusive list). This raid was conducted because the Japanese were getting desperate as the war was winding down and they were losing. The begun to execute their POWs, often in horrific fashions such as mass burnings and beheadings with swords. Word about Cabanatuan got out only because a few prisoners were lucky enough to escape and warn the higher ups about it.

This raid saved hundreds of American POW lives, and THAT is what this movie is about.

History shows that the Japanese were brutal to not only Allied POWs but also to the Filipinos, Chinese and whoever else were unlucky enough to be conquered by them during that time frame. This is true, and well documented. Read the book "The Rape of Nanking", it is clear, yet quite disturbing look at Japanese war atrocities. Things like throwing Chinese babies in the air and catching them with rifle bayonets.

The movie does not sugarcoat how the American soldiers felt about the Japanese. Using words such as "Jap" and "Nip" were common for the time. Right or wrong, they were used. This movie accurately captures that history.

[ftlaudcop]

here is one for ya...

the u.s. citizens of japanese ancestry used to fight

the nazi war machine, are very note worthy hero's....

the native american's, used to talk code, are hero's as well.

they did their part in keeping america safe.

god bless them, god bless america , god bless the american way of life !.. :D

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Okay, but why did everyone miss my point?

I was just stating the fact that the way they treated POW's was determined largely by their culture, not because they were evil men. As you said about the beheadings, if you know anything about Japanese history you'll know that once you have been defeated in battle and lost honor the only way to keep your pride would be sepukku, suicide in which you would be beheaded to keep it painless. Also, war brings about the best and worst in men, we've done other horrible things during war time too so its kind of redundant to say these people are evil due to those actions. What I meant about the movie being fictional was not the theme but rather the detailed events, remember its all scripted and directed which means its largely an interpretation. With different actors and directors we'd have a largely different film with the same theme.

All in all, a great film. Sorry for sending the wrong messages here, I just didn't want anyone thinking "damn Jap's," just the same as I cringe when people get a negative idea about ALL AMERICANS from the mistakes of our brethern, as they walked out the theater. Believe you me, to many are easily subdued by the media.

[Mrs. J21]

O.K You've ruffled my feathers! My Grandfather was on board the LST 713 stationed at Pearl Harbor. They arrived August 7, 1941. They spent what they thought was a little over 3 months in paradise before the JAPANESSE! raided the island killing service men and women and innocent CHILDREN and CIVILIANS. He lost a lot of his fellow crew members and friends December 7 1941. After that he was shipped to Okinawa and Iwo Jima where he watched the JAPANESSE cut the heads off of his fellow servicemen. Lots of AMERICANS were taken to P.O.W camps where they were tortured and murdered. The Japanesse Americans that were detained here were treated very well. One such camp was about 30 miles from here at a Tomato cannery......Where my Grandmother worked. War is HELL,... if the Japanesse didn't want the repercussions they should have thought twice! My other Grandfather was an amry pilot who flew a lot of raids. He latter joined the Air Force in 47 when it was started.
I have no sympathy for the Japanesse whe it comes to Hiroshima. Would we have done it had DEC 7th not happen....NO. At that point in time the United States had to interests in getting into the war even though we were being presurred by Allied nations to join in the fight.
If you want a history lesson I'll give it to you......I MAJORED IN HISTORY.

[Welpe]

I didn't miss your point at all, that may explain WHY they did what they did, but I still find their treatment of the POW's, the Chinese, the Filipinos, (the list goes on) reprehensible.

And no where did I say all Americans are innocent through and through, and of course, not all Japanese were guilty. That does not make the torture and brutal executions of the POW's and the Rape of Nanking right.

This is really all beside the point, however. The events depicted in The Great Raid are true, the dialogue may be fictional to some extent, but the facts are true. It has been dramatized but the important things are still correct, and that is what truly matters.

The facts:

There were hundreds of American POW's held there.

The 6th Ranger Battalion did send elements out to rescue them.

Their mission was highly successful, with minimal casualties and almost all of the prisoners rescued.

This daring mission was launched because there was a very good chance that these prisoners could be executed at any one time.

Mistreatment of Allied POW's was the rule. There were exceptions to this rule, evidenced by Japanese captors that were kind, including a general called "The Poet General" (his real name escapes me). However, they were in the minority.

[savage4presiden]

What the Japanese did was very evil. To say that it was just tradition is asanine. Their tradition was evil then. Who would cut off the heads of unarmed/innocent people? Only terrorists and apparantly WWII Japanese.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

You majored in History great! I'm glad I'm not the only one who is majoring in it. I'm thinking you mist my point though, I just didn't want anyone to walk away thinking negative of the Japanese as a whole. Appearently what they did during time of war, or rather what your grandpa experienced, already has you hating them. The thing is though, how can you put that on all of them? We've commited war attrocities too you know, being a history major i hope so, and because of it the world says things like "stupid Americans" or thinks of us as "uncultured" yet that is not the case. I have great grandpas who were killed by Texas rangers for simply owning land yet you dont see me hating all anglos. Gotta go now.....

[Welpe]

You are correct, as I acknowledged in my previous post, not all Japanese were guilty of these war crimes. I do not hate the Japanese people. Even my grandfather, who fought them as a Marine does not hate them. He was stationed in Okinawa in the 60's and he speaks very highly of the Japanese people as a whole from these experiences. The same for the people from South Korea.

Edit: Thank you for the intellectual sparing, I love a good history debate. I thrive on it. Politics not so much...but history, I love it. :D

[Mrs. J21]

I don't have anything against the Japanesse. The problem I have is people down playing their role in WWII. Everyone has their own level of responsibility thoughout history. What I don't agree with is so many people trying to rewrite history years later to shift the blame. Throughout history America/ Americans have taken the blunt of the blame for war crimes.....Vietnam...Korea.....WWI...WII...Spanish American War....the list is endless. Our Servicemen and Women deserve our upmost respect! They are giving the ultimate gift of their lives for this country and for every person here to be able to live free. Are there some that go to far.....yes. But the handful of bad should in no way over shadow the hundreds of thousands who are true heroes!

I come from a long line of Army and Navy sericemen and women. I have family in Iraq right now serving our country. I take it very seriously when people start dogging our military.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

You are correct, as I acknowledged in my previous post, not all Japanese were guilty of these war crimes. I do not hate the Japanese people. Even my grandfather, who fought them as a Marine does not hate them. He was stationed in Okinawa in the 60's and he speaks very highly of the Japanese people as a whole from these experiences. The same for the people from South Korea.

Edit: Thank you for the intellectual sparing, I love a good history debate. I thrive on it. Politics not so much...but history, I love it. :D


Ditto, I'm glad we got that cleared up =]

[AkhilleusWeeps]

I don't have anything against the Japanesse. The problem I have is people down playing their role in WWII. Everyone has their own level of responsibility thoughout history. What I don't agree with is so many people trying to rewrite history years later to shift the blame. Throughout history America/ Americans have taken the blunt of the blame for war crimes.....Vietnam...Korea.....WWI...WII...Spanish American War....the list is endless. Our Servicemen and Women deserve our upmost respect! They are giving the ultimate gift of their lives for this country and for every person here to be able to live free. Are there some that go to far.....yes. But the handful of bad should in no way over shadow the hundreds of thousands who are true heroes!

I come from a long line of Army and Navy sericemen and women. I have family in Iraq right now serving our country. I take it very seriously when people start dogging our military.


When did I dog our military? Because I said the truth about us doing horrible things as well? Or because I asked you to look at the situation from an objective point of view rather than an American who only see's American values and traditions as the correct ones? I'm not trying to rewrite history, I was asking you to stop using your AMERICAN eyes to see the whole world. Thats why our actions some times get us into deep ****, we're a very ethnocentric group.

[Mrs. J21]

I didn't mean you were dogging our military...it was a statemen in general. The reason for that is because it seems people are unable to understand the bigger picture so the easiest target is the military. Case in point Vietnam......so many people were against the propaganda machine that they associated that with veterans and treated them like dirt for doing their jobs.

Now as far as the rest of it goes. Let's break-this down for what it is. The thread started about a movie. Which was based on a true story, the story of American P.O.Ws held by the Japanesse. Were they treated with extreme torture and violence...yes! When it comes to Prisoners of War did the Japanesse follow the rules of war? NO. Did the U.S? Yes. And again I'm sure there were some that had complete hatred for the Japanesse and got a good lick in when no one was looking. Was that right..no. But 60 years after VJ Day is a long time to start the blame game back up. You're taking a movie based on the unspeakable treatment our P.O.Ws endured and asking us to have sympathy on their captures......there's a term for that, it's the STOCKHOLME SYNDROME. Whether you're American looking at it through Amrican eyes or not.....America was the last to join in WWII and not by choice but by need. Now if we had attacked them in the early morning hours within days of one of there national holidays "without warning or provocation" than we could play the blame game and give sympathy to the Japanesse in that case. But as I said before war is hell. And under the thinking of theologists there is a code of ethics, gentlemans rules so to speak, that the Japanesse didn't follow. And I'm sure if you were in a foriegn country surrounder by people who wanted to see you dead, when it come to you looking face to face with the enemy....you're gonna do whatever it takes to survive!

[ftlaudcop]

the japanese were a bunch of war mongers, their military industrial complex
was ran by a complex " mafia' a criminal military organization and a propaganda machine that sputtered out lies to average citizen, who
is brain washed thru ' culture & tradition' to ask no question and be
obedient to the emperor who may have power or was just a figurehead
propped up by these masters of deceit, their were plenty of japanese
high command officer's who were educated inthe u.s.a., they knew well
in advance the american culture and our values ( capitalism ) , and knew
it was a lost cause to fight us and brought death and destruction to
their civillian population. they chose not to sign the geneva convention
along with the russian.

for the social problems that america has had in it's past
all we can do now is be consistant lawful and do the right thing.

and for history south of the border.......
they need to clean up their back yard before they go snooping
north of the rio grande, plenty of anarchy and mayhem, from the
spaniards who invaded the america's and they no soapbox to
preach from.

god bless the u.s.a and the american way of life.... :D

support your local Sheriff

[AkhilleusWeeps]

I didn't mean you were dogging our military...it was a statemen in general. The reason for that is because it seems people are unable to understand the bigger picture so the easiest target is the military. Case in point Vietnam......so many people were against the propaganda machine that they associated that with veterans and treated them like dirt for doing their jobs.

Now as far as the rest of it goes. Let's break-this down for what it is. The thread started about a movie. Which was based on a true story, the story of American P.O.Ws held by the Japanesse. Were they treated with extreme torture and violence...yes! When it comes to Prisoners of War did the Japanesse follow the rules of war? NO. Did the U.S? Yes. And again I'm sure there were some that had complete hatred for the Japanesse and got a good lick in when no one was looking. Was that right..no. But 60 years after VJ Day is a long time to start the blame game back up. You're taking a movie based on the unspeakable treatment our P.O.Ws endured and asking us to have sympathy on their captures......there's a term for that, it's the STOCKHOLME SYNDROME. Whether you're American looking at it through Amrican eyes or not.....America was the last to join in WWII and not by choice but by need. Now if we had attacked them in the early morning hours within days of one of there national holidays "without warning or provocation" than we could play the blame game and give sympathy to the Japanesse in that case. But as I said before war is hell. And under the thinking of theologists there is a code of ethics, gentlemans rules so to speak, that the Japanesse didn't follow. And I'm sure if you were in a foriegn country surrounder by people who wanted to see you dead, when it come to you looking face to face with the enemy....you're gonna do whatever it takes to survive!


"You're taking a movie based on the unspeakable treatment our P.O.Ws endured and asking us to have sympathy on their captures"

Never asked you to sympathize, re-read my statements, I asked you to look at cultural differences as to the difference in behavior.

"But as I said before war is hell. And under the thinking of theologists there is a code of ethics, gentlemans rules so to speak, that the Japanesse didn't follow."

Don't make your self sound like some blind British officer during our Ind. War. If we had gentlement rules in war we would not bomb before entering, we would not have the Iraqi prison incidence, and we would not be using snipers. If you're making a refference to the Geneva convention you shouldn't be surprised to know that the Japanese nor the Russians made any agreement to follow such rules. Also, when you reffer to theology my guessing is you're thinking about YOUR God. Why would someone who doesn't know about your God follow his rules?


"America was the last to join in WWII and not by choice but by need. Now if we had attacked them in the early morning hours within days of one of there national holidays "without warning or provocation" than we could play the blame game and give sympathy to the Japanesse in that case"

We were going to enter the war regardless of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The Japanese wanted a quick defeat of the Pacific fleet and as horrible as it was, luck played our side and it was a blessing many disguises. I could explain why, but www.google.com will do just the same.

[Mrs. J21]

Excuse me for having spelled something incorrectly. Bottom line........ WWII was 60+ years ago. And unless anyone here actually fought and served during that time we have no real idea of what life was like. The only information we have is a chapter or 2 in a history book unless anyone furthered their education and still there will always be many unanswered questions. I know shock and awe are not gentlemanly rules to war. But we do have in place a code of ethical treatment for P.O.W.s and detainees. Why do you think there has been such a big fuss over Gitmo.
The debate goes back hundreds of years when it comes to history. Everyone wants it remembered their way. Cowboys and the Indians. Yes the white man drove them off their land and nearly killed off all the Native Americans.White man has his version, the Indians have theirs. Hitler and the Jews... Hitler killed them by the thousands. Was Hitler right ..NO. But he did exist and it did happen.African Americans and slavery. History will always be the etched in stone yesterdays of our lives. We can't go back and fix something we did an hour ago, a year ago or even a minute ago.
Yes the Japanese culture is very different from ours and every other country. Yes their religious beliefs are different also. But compassion is universal......................
I for one am going to take this thread for what is was meant for which is to tell everyone that this is a really good movie to see.

[keith758]

If you wish to read a horrifying account of the Japanese treatment of American war prisoners, read "Flyboys." It is about the treatment of flyers shot down over pacific islands that were captured by the Japanese. They were subjected to everything from living targets for bayonet practice to being the subject of cannibalism. The book explains the issue of the code of the "Bushido" and how captives were viewed by the japanese. The treatment of these men by the Japanese cannot even bear a minor comparison to the supposed "abuses" we have subjected people to.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

If you wish to read a horrifying account of the Japanese treatment of American war prisoners, read "Flyboys." It is about the treatment of flyers shot down over pacific islands that were captured by the Japanese. They were subjected to everything from living targets for bayonet practice to being the subject of cannibalism. The book explains the issue of the code of the "Bushido" and how captives were viewed by the japanese. The treatment of these men by the Japanese cannot even bear a minor comparison to the supposed "abuses" we have subjected people to.


"The treatment of these men by the Japanese cannot even bear a minor comparison to the supposed "abuses" we have subjected people to."

Are you reffering to the Iraqi camp or all the torture we've ever done? Cause I can list refferences and books about the torture we have dealt and by no accounts is it "minor." For ****s sake, we've killed thousands upon thousands of civillians with our meddling, alot of which was not for peaceful resolutions or the for the sake of the people of said nation either, case in point Nicaragua. Never soften our mistakes by calling them minor, thats like giving your self a slap on the wrist for stealing and giving the chair to a person who stole your bread.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Excuse me for having spelled something incorrectly. Bottom line........ WWII was 60+ years ago. And unless anyone here actually fought and served during that time we have no real idea of what life was like. The only information we have is a chapter or 2 in a history book unless anyone furthered their education and still there will always be many unanswered questions. I know shock and awe are not gentlemanly rules to war. But we do have in place a code of ethical treatment for P.O.W.s and detainees. Why do you think there has been such a big fuss over Gitmo.
The debate goes back hundreds of years when it comes to history. Everyone wants it remembered their way. Cowboys and the Indians. Yes the white man drove them off their land and nearly killed off all the Native Americans.White man has his version, the Indians have theirs. Hitler and the Jews... Hitler killed them by the thousands. Was Hitler right ..NO. But he did exist and it did happen.African Americans and slavery. History will always be the etched in stone yesterdays of our lives. We can't go back and fix something we did an hour ago, a year ago or even a minute ago.
Yes the Japanese culture is very different from ours and every other country. Yes their religious beliefs are different also. But compassion is universal......................
I for one am going to take this thread for what is was meant for which is to tell everyone that this is a really good movie to see.


Honestly, the big "fuss" over Gitmo. is due to many reasons, of which the major ones I believe to be internet, media, and the fact that we are a super power. If not for the coverage it would go unnoticed just like the rapes and civillian deaths of wars past.
We have more than a chapter or 2 in a book. If we only had that how would this movie have been made? I'm getting tired here and you still missed my point. Also, sorry but even though you may think compassion is unversal its definition is not.

[Welpe]

To even try and compare Abu Grhaib and Gitmo to the Japanese POW camps is simply assinine.

Read the Rape of Nankin, Into the Rising Sun, Flyboys and any number of books and you will see what I am talking about.

[ftlaudcop]

it's a plain as day these non-christian people have nothing but evil
intentions for the u.s.a and their allies, our # priority is providing security
for our country and our way of life. if the allie's wanna jointhe bandwagon
to secure a future thats the way it is.


www.schackdaddy.com

[AkhilleusWeeps]

To even try and compare Abu Grhaib and Gitmo to the Japanese POW camps is simply assinine.

Read the Rape of Nankin, Into the Rising Sun, Flyboys and any number of books and you will see what I am talking about.


Oh I'm sorry should I have compared it too the Wounded Knee Massacre of 1890, the cages in Vietnam, or the slaves who were hanged/raped/skined/burned?

[ftlaudcop]

I told all my co- workers about the movie
most are younger than me...( by decades) or 15 yrs or so,
I told them what to expect and formulate their own opinion
of the matter. it was a good movie..!!

god bless the u.s army ranger's , and god bless the american way

of life :D

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Alright this thread is getting out of hand, so I'll clearify my original intentions and views.

I first of all, didn't want anyone to sympathize with the Japanese for their treatment of the American POW's. I merely wanted people to understand the background of the Japanese people and why some things, as shocking as they are to us, seemed normal to them. By this I meant the treatment of soldiers, the abuse of children and women I agree is unforgivable as I stated earlier when I said it went against the Samurai code. In this, I was asking you to stop thinking about values/morals/right or wrong from an American POV because that is culturally based, among other things, and differs greatly from society to society.
I think most of you misunderstood that and started calling our mistakes "minor," i.e. interncamps being a "vacation" or saying such things as the Japanese actions "cannot even bear a minor comparison to the supposed "abuses" we have subjected people to." As is always the case we look upon our selves more forgiving and that led me to bring up examples of where we have been the wrong doers, of which there are plenty.
So again, all I wanted was for people to watch and understand the cultural differences. To understand that and not to leave the theater thinking "damn Jap's" and less of a great people who much like our selves are proud and patriotic. The open mind is a great thing.

[ftlaudcop]

I guess I should be mad at the Itallian's because of my
german heritage because the romans took over what is now germany,
and they got kicked out by the germanic tribes..... :mad:


...............TALK TO THE HAND .................. :D

[Mrs. J21]

I wasn't trying to compare Gitmo to Japanese P.O.W camps. I was just meaning that the U.S has a code of ethics they follow for P.O.Ws. So when the Americans treat P.O.Ws questionably that causes a big stir.


Like I said before.. I hope to see the movie....looks good and from what I've gathered it sounds like a good movie.

[Isla_]

http://www.pluggedinonline.com/movies/movies/a0002286.cfm


I just read this review and I want to see the movie now

[Isla_]

http://www.christiantoday.com/news/asia-pacific/japan.primate.message.of.peace.prime.minister.apol ogises.for.war.atrocities/285.htm

[keith758]

I am not naive enough to believe that our country has never committed atrocoties, however, regardless of the contentions of others, they pale in comparison to the millions killed by Stalin in the Gulags, the millions killed by the Khmer Rouge, the millions killed in Nazi concentration camps, and the current genocide taking place in various parts of the world.

I agree with Welpe in that our supposed "abuses" at Abu Ghrab are nothing when compared to the treatment of Allied prisoners by the Japanese during WWII. If I were a prisoner, I'd much rather be subjected to having a woman laugh at my privates than I would being tied to a post, and being used for bayonet practice.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

I am not naive enough to believe that our country has never committed atrocoties, however, regardless of the contentions of others, they pale in comparison to the millions killed by Stalin in the Gulags, the millions killed by the Khmer Rouge, the millions killed in Nazi concentration camps, and the current genocide taking place in various parts of the world.

I agree with Welpe in that our supposed "abuses" at Abu Ghrab are nothing when compared to the treatment of Allied prisoners by the Japanese during WWII. If I were a prisoner, I'd much rather be subjected to having a woman laugh at my privates than I would being tied to a post, and being used for bayonet practice.


How about having your government toppled and have another nation install puppets so they can maintain profit and area power and in the process thousands of your country men die, most of which are not in uniform? I'm not reffering to iraq here but many other nations. One of which, as I mentioned before, is Nicaragua where U.S. Marines killed civillians and didn't feel the need to apply the rules of war because they weren't fighting a "legitimate military foe" torture and civillian deaths were the result. People need to stop ****ing forgiving them selves or see'ing their own short comings in a softer light. This whole "oh what we did isn't as bad" is ****ing bull****. We are just as bad as stalin, hitler, or any other tyrant you can mention. I don't feel like mentioning specific examples but because high school history class has appearently failed to give you a glimpse of our true past I'll just mention SLAVERY, NATIVE AMERICAN GENOCIDE, and SALEM.
Learn your history, step up to the facts, so when someone mentions these things you don't just say "oh oh oh, but what they did was worse!" and point some fingers.

[ftlaudcop]

the u.s. had slavery from 1780 or so til 1863, or does the
us goverment get blamed fromthe 1st time they set foot on usa soil..???

also mention the original slave states !!

were the northern state obligated in anyway ?

the power's of the states were more sovereighn in those days,
and the federal goverment had to rely on the state goverments
in case a war broke out.

also with slavery....mention who sold who into slavery !!!

mention all parties involved.

the native american's were wandering nomads following the food chain,

their claim to land 5000 miles by 5000 miles !!!

with no disrespect to our european ancestory, to victor belong
the spoils, thats the way people operated in those days.

your using todays...gentleman policy standards for

situations where people fought over the most trivial things.

well when it comes to culture, understand the european side,
that was part of our culture to take over and subdue and we did it.

[keith758]

Sonny Boy, you need to learn a little more about history before you become brazen enough to smear the name of every soldier that died protecting your sorry ***** and your right to spout ignorance. To compare our soldiers to Hitler's SS is a slap in the face of every soldier currently serving and every veteran. You obviously have no sense of the destruction and devastation that was brought about because of Hitler, or Stalin. I don't mean to undermine the seriousness of the inequities perpetuated by us in the past, but you are comparing apples to oranges.

Why don't you get your head out of your ***** and realize that the freedoms that you enjoy to worship where you choose, live where you choose, and say what you want are the envy of most of the world. And those rights were earned by our armed forces.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Sonny Boy, you need to learn a little more about history before you become brazen enough to smear the name of every soldier that died protecting your sorry ***** and your right to spout ignorance. To compare our soldiers to Hitler's SS is a slap in the face of every soldier currently serving and every veteran. You obviously have no sense of the destruction and devastation that was brought about because of Hitler, or Stalin. I don't mean to undermine the seriousness of the inequities perpetuated by us in the past, but you are comparing apples to oranges.

Why don't you get your head out of your ***** and realize that the freedoms that you enjoy to worship where you choose, live where you choose, and say what you want are the envy of most of the world. And those rights were earned by our armed forces.


"Sonny Boy, you need to learn a little more about history before you become brazen enough to smear the name of every soldier that died protecting your sorry ***** and your right to spout ignorance."

What?....so you mean to tell me that if you killed somebody and I called you a murderer I'd need to stop bitching and whining and stfu because you are working for LE and I'm enjoying my protection from criminals because of you? Okay. Thanks for the heads up on that one.

And for the love of God do not speak of my ignorance. One of the reasons so many think of us as "uncultured" is because of people who perpituate this grand idea that we've never done anything wrong, and that we're always right.

I also realize that my freedom has come at a great price, which is why I use my rights to their full extent. As I mentioned before I'm not dogging our military, I'm giving you facts if you don't like it then make sure they never happen again or erase them from the history books and create the fictional world you live in which America is never as bad as any other country.
I also fail to see how the soldiers who pillaged Nicaragua helped secure my safety or freedom, perhaps if you read my post with clear mind you would have realized that we raped Nicaragua for our benefit.

"You obviously have no sense of the destruction and devastation that was brought about because of Hitler, or Stalin. I don't mean to undermine the seriousness of the inequities perpetuated by us in the past, but you are comparing apples to oranges."

Perhaps also, because your way of life or race has never been manhandled or brought to the brink of extinction you'd think our wrongs are not as bad. How can I not compare Hitler to our genocide of Native Americans? Tell me the difference. They put jews in an oven, we set their villages on fire. They put jews to work in camps, we herderd N.A. like animals into reservations in which thousands of them died when we expected them to travel thousands of miles on foot. They killed jews at will, we scalped them and killed their women and children in hopes of dwindeling their numbers and way of life. STOP YOUR IGNORANCE.


I love our military, I have brave friends who are fighting for me right now. Yet, I still know that we have made mistakes and I say we because they work for us. Instead of saying what a great nation we are and how our mistakes are never as bad how about you stop your ignorance, accept our mistakes as evil as they are and do your part in making sure they don't happen again.

[ftlaudcop]

I am proud to be a us citizen..... :D

and i am proud of my european ancestry..... :D


god bless the u.s.a. and our wonderful way of life..... :p

I could never committ murder and mayhem like the japaneese

and then be like a cock roach " part of my culture ".... :mad:

sorry charlie, we were living in modern times, and these

bozo jap general's....knew better.

gold bless the rangers for their heroic effort to rescue
these prisoners of war, and dish out justice with their rifles.. :D

www.schackdaddy.com

[Welpe]

I will say again, read the "Rape of Nanking". The US has done some bad things in it's past (and no that does not include places like Nicaragua, IMO) but that does not less the atrocities comitted by the Japanese against Allied POW's, Filipinos and the Chinese (to name just a few).

With that said, I'm done with this thread.

Ftlaudcop, I agree, those Rangers, Alamo Scouts and Pajota's guerillas were heroes.

[ftlaudcop]

Particularly disturbing is that the Japanese perpetrators derived great pleasure from these heinous crimes, while their superiors condoned and even supported them. One outstandingly revolting account is of several soldiers who, after raping and killing a pregnant woman, presented her fetus on a bayonet to their commanding officer, who replied with laughter. There were innumerable gruesome occurrences like this ...
acts of cruelty seemingly beyond human capacity ...
but commonplace, in the massacre of Nanking.


I am suppose to understand this culture....??????..... :mad:

[Welpe]

Evidently, you are. There were SOME Japanese generals that saw how twisted the Bushido code had become under the Imperial Japanese Military, however they were in the minority.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Particularly disturbing is that the Japanese perpetrators derived great pleasure from these heinous crimes, while their superiors condoned and even supported them. One outstandingly revolting account is of several soldiers who, after raping and killing a pregnant woman, presented her fetus on a bayonet to their commanding officer, who replied with laughter. There were innumerable gruesome occurrences like this ...
acts of cruelty seemingly beyond human capacity ...
but commonplace, in the massacre of Nanking.


I am suppose to understand this culture....??????..... :mad:


Okay, have you not read any of my post about our conduct? You understand one that destroyed races, cultures, and whole nations ( I hope you realize I'm reffering to ours) yet refuse to believe that we match up to par with the worst the world has to offer including the Japanese. I guess for some ignorance is bliss. I guess if they made a movie about Americans and their beheadings of N.A.'s or about hanging negros in town halls or installing tyrants in other nations you would understand. I guess untill that time you'll eat this movie and think high and mighty of your self because we've never done such things! No, not in vietnam! No not in Nicaragua! No not in our own backyard! NOPE! NONE AS BAD AS JAPAN!

America good! Rest of world bad! Our mistakes ok! Yours not!

I'm leaving this thread for good, you people are so friggin stuborn and aroused by a movie that is depicting a POW camp accurately and in your own stupidty refuse to believe that we've done worse and continue to trash the Japanese.

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20040926075956517

http://www.historiansagainstwar.org/resources/torture/grossman.html

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/fyi/interactive/specials/bhm/backgrounder/segregation.html

PS: "according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record."

Thats how I can compare us to Hitler. Stop getting your history from a movie, read a book.

And for those of you who believe the Japanese troops were masters of torture try this for size "the notorious Operation Phoenix, set up by the CIA to wipe out the Vietcong
infrastructure, subjected suspects to torture such as electric shock to
the genitals of both men and women, and the insertion into the ear of a
six-inch dowel, which was tapped through the brain until the victim died;
suspects were also thrown out of airborne helicopters to persuade the more
important suspects to talk, although this should probably be categorized
as murder of the ones thrown out, and a form of torture for those not. In
violation of the Geneva Convention, the US turned prisoners over to their
South Vietnamese allies in full knowledge that they would be tortured,
American military personnel often being present during the torture. "

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/0651.html

I believe I've made my points, if you think I've done a disservice to our men in arms then point out why please, I'm posting cold hard facts of what happend just as in that movie you saw. What happend is what happend, don't blame me for that I'm here to bring you truth.

[Isla_]

sometimes issues as heated as this should be reserved for people with whom one has more than a passing aquaintance with, otherwise it WILL be frustrating as the people involved in the conversation will only assume the worst about each, the disagreement being their only interaction.

That being said, I did post the link showing how the Japanese PM has made an official appology for war. http://www.christiantoday.com/news/asia-pacific/japan.primate.message.of.peace.prime.minister.apol ogises.for.war.atrocities/285.htm

I think that is very noble of them and I wish that America would follow in it's footsteps in some ways. I love America and thank God almighty that I was born in this country where I still have many freedoms. I am sad though that the government that in so many ways represents the people, has swept their mistakes under the rug instead of owning up to them and making them right. If America were a family member of yours or mine, how would you respond and react to them? If I had a member of my family who I knew had done someone else wrong, I would do what I could to persuade them to make it right. If they had done wrong, then went back, not only apologized but repayed the debt, I would have such respect for them. Which is why I have alot of respect for Japan for making such a statement on a national level.
If more countries would do this,ie, Ireland, England, Russia and many others, there would be no one left to fight.

I know I know.....I AM an idealist, but I am okay with that :)

[AkhilleusWeeps]

sometimes issues as heated as this should be reserved for people with whom one has more than a passing aquaintance with, otherwise it WILL be frustrating as the people involved in the conversation will only assume the worst about each, the disagreement being their only interaction.

That being said, I did post the link showing how the Japanese PM has made an official appology for war. http://www.christiantoday.com/news/asia-pacific/japan.primate.message.of.peace.prime.minister.apol ogises.for.war.atrocities/285.htm

I think that is very noble of them and I wish that America would follow in it's footsteps in some ways. I love America and thank God almighty that I was born in this country where I still have many freedoms. I am sad though that the government that in so many ways represents the people, has swept their mistakes under the rug instead of owning up to them and making them right. If America were a family member of yours or mine, how would you respond and react to them? If I had a member of my family who I knew had done someone else wrong, I would do what I could to persuade them to make it right. If they had done wrong, then went back, not only apologized but repayed the debt, I would have such respect for them. Which is why I have alot of respect for Japan for making such a statement on a national level.
If more countries would do this,ie, Ireland, England, Russia and many others, there would be no one left to fight.

I know I know.....I AM an idealist, but I am okay with that :)


You're also open minded and seemingly the first to realize we have blood soaked hands w/out diminishing that affect or saying "they did worse." Thank you, that's all I needed. Later folks.

[ftlaudcop]

I wonder how you prepose repayment for wrongs, that were committed
a hundred yrs ago and who is suppose to pay.

the civil rights era, until now has made great strides......

I don't think the ' goverment of the people, for the people ' is going to

just open a blank check book for anyone, unless they want another civil

war on their hands. everyone keeps talking as if all people that

were wronged were like citizens or people of today.

political agenda's, people's education, fear of the unknown were all different.

their are still people alive today that suffered in " modern times' ,
and regardless of culture, I am no way going to condone criminal acts under
any flag of goverment.

the goverments of: japan, germany, russia, italy during ww2 committed
]
crimes against humanity, the egg head's of these countries were educated

enough, and their political idea's were horrific and criminal.

[keith758]

OK, akhill...., so now you're quoting Ward Churchill. For the uniformed, Ward Churchill is the college professor who is controversial for claiming that the 911 bombings were the fault of the victims in the Trade Towers, and they were a righteous response to the American way of life. He has also been discredited for claiming to be a Native American, when there is proof to the contrary.

Akhill......., in your profile, it says that you are a 20-year-old student. So, tell me, when did the evil white man victimize you? When were you or your immediate family tortured or forcible removed from your land? When were you personally "manhandled" or brought to the "brink of extinction?" My ancestors were an underclass in Europe. They were chased from their homes. They were victimized, they were manhandled. Does that mean that the europeons in Germany or the Danish people in Denmark owe me something? I don't think so, and I'd be a fool to expect it. My life is what I make of it, not what my past dictates. Until you move past your anger, and stop using the inequities of the past as an excuse for the present, you won't be anything other than a bitter, young man.

As far as my hands being blood soaked, my ancestors didn't come to this country until 1885. As far as I know, none of them participated in the destruction of Native American culture, none of them ever owned or condoned slavery, and all started with nothing in this country. They didn't weep because they were forced from their homes. They went on with their lives and enjoyed the liberties that only the United States afford it's citizens.

[ftlaudcop]

I did some family history research and found a guy with
my last name, who served as a union volunteer for a new england state
during the civil war, he was killed in action from what the site said.

so who writes me a check....????

for wrongful death / great southern rebellion/ civil war ????


god bless america, and the freedoms we enjoy !!!...... :D

support your local sheriff


www.schackdaddy.com

[Isla_]

ftlaudcop, I am not exactly sure what you mean by "citizens or people of today". Do you mean to say that because things are different today than there were 50-100 years ago that those people should not be held to the same standard as today? If this is what you mean, my opinion on this is that it is okay for people to change and become better people. People 50-100 years ago might not have seen the importance of forgiveness, but today, hopfully we do and choose to act on that.



http://www.christiantoday.com/news/asia-pacific/japan.primate.message.of.peace.prime.minister.apol ogises.for.war.atrocities/285.htm
japan apologizes for war crimes

apologizing for war crimes in no way dimishes the death of brave soldiers or causes people of that nation to disdain their own nation, rather, apologizing helps to foster forgivness and friendship. It does not justify what "the other side" did and does not make excuses for actions.


http://www.christiantoday.com/news/missions/salvation.army.h2o.youth.project.to.raise.spiritua lity.of.northern.ireland./449.htm

http://www.christiantoday.com/news/society/pope.overjoyed.at.ira.decision.to.renounce.violenc e/414.htm

ireland moves to peace
I think that this process would move along much quicker and have lasting results if both sides apologized for the killings.




http://www.nbc4.com/news/3772358/detail.html
reconciliation walk
I have seen some comments (not from O.com.er's) that this is stupid and pandering. " I didn't own slaves so I am not sorry for anything" is the attitude. Well, I have never owned a slave either, but I do not think that was a shining moment in america's history, and I do feel sorry for the pain and death people suffered at the hands of others. I actually don't care who the players are, I care that people suffered at anothers hands.

http://www.nativevillage.org/Messages%20from%20the%20People/resolution_of_apology_to_native_.htm
native apology
these people deserve much better than what the American governments have given them.

In case you think that I am bashing America and am not thankful for the freedoms and liberties afforded to me by those who gave their lives through the years, let me put your mind at ease. I love my country, my father served two tours of duty during Vietnam,during the first gulf war, I chose a soldier from my church and wrote frequently to him, encouraging him, during the second gulf war, I made my dad take me to the local troop support rallies, I tied yellow ribbons around many trees and I loudly complained at the last parade about the lack of respect the american flag gets as it is marched past. I just feel that if I can recall the hero's of yesterday, I have to recall the sins also.

[ftlaudcop]

I'm just talkin about stuff that happened a long time ago......

plenty of people were oppressed from the beginning of time
one group always trying to dominate another....

their is no excuse for war crimes in modern times.....

for the entire 20th century for that matter.

this country has made great advance's in civil rights

and liberty for all, just get sick of cry baby groups of people

who point their finger at this great country and wanna live here

point the finger else where, and be lucky you enjoy the liberties

of the american way of life or go back to whence you came,

forth with...!!!!!.................... :D

[AkhilleusWeeps]

OK, akhill...., so now you're quoting Ward Churchill. For the uniformed, Ward Churchill is the college professor who is controversial for claiming that the 911 bombings were the fault of the victims in the Trade Towers, and they were a righteous response to the American way of life. He has also been discredited for claiming to be a Native American, when there is proof to the contrary.

Akhill......., in your profile, it says that you are a 20-year-old student. So, tell me, when did the evil white man victimize you? When were you or your immediate family tortured or forcible removed from your land? When were you personally "manhandled" or brought to the "brink of extinction?" My ancestors were an underclass in Europe. They were chased from their homes. They were victimized, they were manhandled. Does that mean that the europeons in Germany or the Danish people in Denmark owe me something? I don't think so, and I'd be a fool to expect it. My life is what I make of it, not what my past dictates. Until you move past your anger, and stop using the inequities of the past as an excuse for the present, you won't be anything other than a bitter, young man.

As far as my hands being blood soaked, my ancestors didn't come to this country until 1885. As far as I know, none of them participated in the destruction of Native American culture, none of them ever owned or condoned slavery, and all started with nothing in this country. They didn't weep because they were forced from their homes. They went on with their lives and enjoyed the liberties that only the United States afford it's citizens.

"Akhill......., in your profile, it says that you are a 20-year-old student. So, tell me, when did the evil white man victimize you? When were you or your immediate family tortured or forcible removed from your land? When were you personally "manhandled" or brought to the "brink of extinction?" My ancestors were an underclass in Europe. They were chased from their homes. They were victimized, they were manhandled. Does that mean that the europeons in Germany or the Danish people in Denmark owe me something? I don't think so, and I'd be a fool to expect it. My life is what I make of it, not what my past dictates. Until you move past your anger, and stop using the inequities of the past as an excuse for the present, you won't be anything other than a bitter, young man."

If you had read all my post you would have read that my lineage has had homicide on its hands placed by Texas rangers for simply owning land, that and facing hostile anglos in this area untill the late 1960's in which many hispanics were hanged/killed. I still to this day face racism when traveling cross country, the funny stares, long waits in restaurants or simply no service, and the lovely time I've enjoyed being spoken down are nice commodities afforded through my tanned skin.
Also, I'm an American citizen though I have ancestry that is from Europe and Mexico I am not a direct descendant of any of those whom commited the attrocities, aka N.A. Genocide, BUT I do to an extent feel responsible. I am here and proud of my nation even though it has done some very questionable acts in order to create our "justice" and "peace" thus I will do my best to make sure they don't happen again and to give those who discredit us a good argument instead of pointing at another nations mistakes and downplaying ours.

"As far as my hands being blood soaked, my ancestors didn't come to this country until 1885. As far as I know, none of them participated in the destruction of Native American culture, none of them ever owned or condoned slavery, and all started with nothing in this country. They didn't weep because they were forced from their homes. They went on with their lives and enjoyed the liberties that only the United States afford it's citizens."

You are American. The "the liberties that only the United States afford it's citizens" were won through bloodshed that is on par with the originally mentioned torture of American POW's yet you feel no guilt? I'm sorry, but I disagree on the fact that you feel that the burden of our past cannot be placed upon your shoulders because you came after the fact that the blood was shed yet you feel free to enjoy the outcome of our blunders.

I think Isla said it best "I just feel that if I can recall the hero's of yesterday, I have to recall the sins also."

Oh and ftlaudcop as much as I hate to argue with you:
"I did some family history research and found a guy with
my last name, who served as a union volunteer for a new england state
during the civil war, he was killed in action from what the site said.

so who writes me a check....????"

No one said anything about money entering the equation. Isla did mention how some have atleast written apologys, which IMHO, is something to be admired and something we have failed to do quite often. I'd say acceptance, acknowledgement, followed by an apology is worth more than all the money in the world.

[ftlaudcop]

your response's are duly noted for the record.... :p



www.schackdaddy.com

[keith758]

Akhill...I'm done trying to argue with such a "victim." As long as you have the "Oh, poor me," attitude," even when you don't face prejudice, you'll create it. Have a good life.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

Akhill...I'm done trying to argue with such a "victim." As long as you have the "Oh, poor me," attitude," even when you don't face prejudice, you'll create it. Have a good life.

It's funny you avoided the real issue which was the past and how you should infact be inclined to acknowledge what travestys give you your liberties. I believe that it is with in this ignorance that we are doomed to continue wrong doing other nations and think weak of it whilst continuing to believe we are always the "good" guys and our horrors do not equal that which has/will be done upon us.

Remember Keith, you asked how I have been victomized or manhandled So you can see why I really have no clue how I projected that attitude. I gave you cold hard facts about our past and how in many ways we are no different from the wrong doers out there. The facts present this, not an attitude I have nor some stories I made up. I never claimed to be a victim either, I just told you what I face while traveling our nation and what my past relatives have had to deal with. Again, your ignorance showed and appearently to you I'm some weakling looking for attention. I bid you farewell and good luck with the "America good, rest of world bad" mentality, oh wait nevermind you did accept the fact that we have done wrong but not the idea that you should carry the weight of our past or that our actions can be parallel to the worst history has to offer. Later gator.

God bless America and all her informed citizens, lets make this nation better for future generations =]

[Isla_]

I will say again, read the "Rape of Nanking". The US has done some bad things in it's past (and no that does not include places like Nicaragua, IMO) but that does not less the atrocities comitted by the Japanese against Allied POW's, Filipinos and the Chinese (to name just a few).

With that said, I'm done with this thread.

Ftlaudcop, I agree, those Rangers, Alamo Scouts and Pajota's guerillas were heroes.

I went back and read parts of this thread again because it really intrigues me, I promise I am not trying to stir the pot, I like debate though (not name calling and rudeness, debate.)

Welpe, I think you sort of sum things up for me right here. I cried when I saw the movie "Blackhawk Down". Knowing just a fraction of what those men went through breaks my heart. They were someone's father or brother that acted bravely in the face of danger that would make most of us crap our pants. I have respect for the men and women who serve ready to defend our country.
I am going to post this link again because I wanted to point out one more important aspect. In issuing an apology, the Japanese did not demoralize their fallen hero's. You will see that they include them in the service they hold. I think the point that should be taken to heart is, war is war. Sometimes it is necessesary to defend a country with weapons. We should never ENJOY taking a human life and should not take pleasure in anothers pain. I may be oversimplifying it, if so, I am sorry. We all could go round and round and round till kingdom come about who did what to who and why it was or wasn't worse than something else.

http://www.christiantoday.com/news/asia-pacific/japan.primate.message.of.peace.prime.minister.apol ogises.for.war.atrocities/285.htm

A person who never admits any wrongdoing and excuses their behavior is not usually emulated, so why would a country not suffer the same fate? I do not hate my country, and I frequently thank God that I was born here to enjoy the freedoms that I do. ( I keep up to date on other countries ) I only wish that America would, as a nation, humble themselves and apologize for their part in wrongdoing, whether it was last week or 100 years ago. The past IS the past and nothing can be done to unmake it, does that make it okay to forget about it and simply move on? sure, if you don't carry the scars of past persecution. Someone mentioned "compassion" earlier, I think that word would fit here. What greater compassion can someone have, than, even though they may not have directly wronged another, apologize for pain inflicted and acknowledge that they suffered.

In today's American society, we tend to throw money at problems, thinking that will fix it. Do a quick little study on the differences between government programs and private charities. The charities are motivated by compassion, while I won't even speculate on the governments motivation. I think this can show that the right motivation is needed.

[ftlaudcop]

don't think your ever gonna see that day.
america " paid" it's apology in the civil war with the
tremendous battle loss's on both side's......it's called blood...!

during world war 2....

again...it was american blood and it's allies spilled to insure
your existance as a human being from the fashist's empire's
of germany,italy and japan....and america stood toe to toe
to make sure comminisum did not spread like a cancer.

your comments and the other guy, america owes you nothing...!

just get over it, and thank your lucky star's your an american period...!

[AkhilleusWeeps]

don't think your ever gonna see that day.
america " paid" it's apology in the civil war with the
tremendous battle loss's on both side's......it's called blood...!

during world war 2....

again...it was american blood and it's allies spilled to insure
your existance as a human being from the fashist's empire's
of germany,italy and japan....and america stood toe to toe
to make sure comminisum did not spread like a cancer.

your comments and the other guy, america owes you nothing...!

just get over it, and thank your lucky star's your an american period...!

To quote an old show, "Damn it jim!" You totally missed our points. We didn't say America owes us anything we're saying WE should step up and OWN up to our mistakes so that we may not make them again. As far as blood, I'll also thank the Native American who obviously bled like a hemophiliac for the insurance that our nation grew to what it is today, and believe you me I'm very thankful for our men in service who have fought for our sake but I feel I also share their mistakes, i.e. war crimes and the like. As far as the civil war goes you really need to read up on the motivations of the war and the outcomes you would be really surprised what the high school textbooks didn't tell you.

You would also be surprised as to why world war 2 started, going back to the versaille treaty here, it also wasnt like Hitler showed up on a sunny peaceful day in Germany and decided "hell, I think I'll start world war 2" if we were under the same circumstances we'd believe a morale boosting psycho too. There is such a big part of history that America does not like to teach its students which IMO creates alot of misunderstanding and ignorance. Sorry I'm starting to ramble, I just got a thing for history. I'm finding my self eerily drawn to this thread again and again =] I'm thinking perhaps I got a thing for debates/arguments too.

[Isla_]

AkhilleusWeeps, I am glad you keep coming back to this thread :-)
I think debate is very helpful in that it helps the speaker define what their own postition on the issue is. Debates should also help a speaker clarify their thoughts and speech. I find that when I engage in conversation like this, it shapens my reasoning, speaker and thought process skills. I personally, talk things out to help me figure out what I am thinking or feeling, so having conversations like this help me clearly define my own convictions and why I hold them dear.

AkhilleusWeeps,

http://www.globalnetproductions.com/mshsurvival.html


http://www.globalnetproductions.com/mshsurvival.html

These are two links that pertain to a family in my church. They have adopted five native american children (they are brothers and sisters who would have been seperated otherwise) and they participated in the march. Jacob Lienau, the oldest boy is the one in the picture from the second link.

[Isla_]

don't think your ever gonna see that day.
america " paid" it's apology in the civil war with the
tremendous battle loss's on both side's......it's called blood...!

during world war 2....

again...it was american blood and it's allies spilled to insure
your existance as a human being from the fashist's empire's
of germany,italy and japan....and america stood toe to toe
to make sure comminisum did not spread like a cancer.

your comments and the other guy, america owes you nothing...!

just get over it, and thank your lucky star's your an american period...!

I am not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that I am not thankful for where I live and how it came to be.

The Civil War is an interesting example, one that I think would need it's own thread or website. There are too many factors in that one for me to sum it up on a couple of sentences. On a sidenote, I do find it interesting that even in America, there are those that can't "get over" and face the facts about which side won. Moving on.

Apologys in blood? I think for that to be, it would have to be something like, a person was wronged, the person who did the wrongdoing gave their life in attempt to rectify the situation. I don't think the civil war counts as a blood apology. The North's involvement in the war might be classified as a blood apology, but I think it was more politically motivated than anything. That is my own jaded opinion though.

I think the concept and practice of standing ready to defend a nation and the craft of torture and unmoral/unethical war crimes are getting confused.
Death is a part of war, I know this, and I accept this. What I accept is the country that I love hiding their faults and using others standards to measure our morality. I don't care that in other nations horrible torture is acceptable.
I believe that the lack of apologys needed and our behavior now, is connected.

When a person is dishonest in the little things, they become suspect in the big things. The point here is that if a person is not moral in the small things, they most likely will not be moral in the big things. There are so many small things that america has not been moral in.




What exactly am I supposed to be getting over? I am advocating humbleness, forgiveness and compassion.

[jerrymaccauley]

You realize, of course, that the movie was produced to make Americans quit beating ourselves up for being a superpower. No coincedence that it was released on the anniversary of our A-bombing Japan. We always need an evil "bad guy" to beat up on, instead of ourselves. The new show "Over There" brings out similar sentiments. When the country begins questioning it's actions, historically we don't improve, we find another battle.

[jerrymaccauley]

Oh yeah, and Michael Moore can bite me.

[AkhilleusWeeps]

AkhilleusWeeps, I am glad you keep coming back to this thread :-)
I think debate is very helpful in that it helps the speaker define what their own postition on the issue is. Debates should also help a speaker clarify their thoughts and speech. I find that when I engage in conversation like this, it shapens my reasoning, speaker and thought process skills. I personally, talk things out to help me figure out what I am thinking or feeling, so having conversations like this help me clearly define my own convictions and why I hold them dear.

AkhilleusWeeps,

http://www.globalnetproductions.com/mshsurvival.html


http://www.globalnetproductions.com/mshsurvival.html

These are two links that pertain to a family in my church. They have adopted five native american children (they are brothers and sisters who would have been seperated otherwise) and they participated in the march. Jacob Lienau, the oldest boy is the one in the picture from the second link.


Mighty nice of them, nice to know these things, gives you courage to atleast try and do a small part in your day to day life.

[Isla_]

You realize, of course, that the movie was produced to make Americans quit beating ourselves up for being a superpower. No coincedence that it was released on the anniversary of our A-bombing Japan. We always need an evil "bad guy" to beat up on, instead of ourselves. The new show "Over There" brings out similar sentiments. When the country begins questioning it's actions, historically we don't improve, we find another battle.

Where do we go from here than? If by seeking forgiveness and compassion, we fail as a country, what does that leave?

Jerrymaccauley, I don't know alot about Michael Moore, so I don't really want to comment on him. I am doing a google search on him right now.

[keith758]

Akhill..... and the rest, just so you don't think I'm one of "those people," I had 2 foster brothers that were half Hispanic and Half Native American. They were with us for several years while I was between 7 to 11 years old, and to me they were my friends, companions and brothers. The area of the country that I live in has a large influx of Hispanic people, and I have nothing but respect for the work that they do. And it is a fact that the Native Americans were brutalized by our government. The point I feel needs to be made is that we need to learn from the past, and get on with life. If I dwelt on every miserable, rotten thing that ever happened to me or my family, I would be a miserable, rotten person. Life is meant to be lived. I choose to live my life and do the best I can with what I have.

[Isla_]

Have we learned from our past?

Have we given the people that have been hurt along the way a reason to forgive us?

I have been thinking about this alot, and I compare it to this. Say you are walking down the street and a stranger just comes up and decks you hard. Your jaw is still hurting when you say angry words, to which the offending party's response it, "whats done is done, you can't change it, so just get over it already!"

What would be your response?

And keith, for me this thread is not about me passing judgement on others whose opinions differ than mine. I like thought provoking conversation, I hope you don't think that I am angry whilst I write. I am not, and I don't think less of those who have differing opinions.

[jerrymaccauley]

You know how other countries resent the U.S. because we act like the police of the world? Well, most nations expect us to be the police of the world. We do protect them from bullies. Much like police here though, people want us to make them safe, but they don't want to know how we accomplish that. It's way too brutal for most people to comprehend. It's the Sheep and the sheepdog thing. The sheep don't care for the dog hanging around...until the wolf gets there. Nope, we don't get to be come neutral anymore.

[keith758]

I think we have learned from our past. It is no longer a practice to openly discriminate against others based on race, color, or creed. As a nation, we, have instituted things such as the civil rights act which protect our citizens against such things. I realize that there are a lot of ignorant individuals that exercise discriminatory practices, but that is their personal choice. I think our government has come a long way in the last half of the last century to try to right the wrongs that they have perpetrated in the past. I know of no where in the country where it is acceptable to openly harass, belittle, or brutalize anyone regardless of their race or beliefs.

Isla, as far as your argument about the "stranger" hitting me in the mouth, am I to take it that EVERY "stranger" that approaches me after that is guilty, just because they are a "stranger?" Thats the same as saying that every soldier is guilty of abuses just because of what some have done.

Also, I don't think less of those who have differing opinions. I also enjoy a good debate that is based on common sense rather than emotion.

[Isla_]

Keith, I am sorry, I think have veered off the subject slightly. I am not really refering to the soldiers and war really. I guess I am talking about the responsibilities that I have as a human being. I can't believe that my way of life is superior to all others, and I cannot be so naive to believe that my country is innocent of all crimes. Since I am not naive or arrogant in this respect, the question I have to ask myself is, "what do I do with the info?" To have the information and not act on it somehow seems to me to be a crime.

take a look at this link, look at the law that was repealed and how long it took to get it off the books.

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/bureau/bwa_6.html

I wanted to respond to your reply of my analogy, but I realized that we are talking about different situations and circumstances.....my fault, I got off subject. (I am actually famous for that lol )

[ftlaudcop]

sheesh, what planet do you come from...?????

go back !


proof aliens landed ! you,....!!! :eek: