Is Racial Profiling for terrorists ever ok? [Archive] - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

TXLady

07-23-2005, 12:41 AM

RACIAL PROFILING

This one's been making the rounds.

To ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly insane fanatics intent on killing us, airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old nuns, four-year-old children, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors.

Pause a moment and take the following test, which will show you why racial profiling is discriminatory and evil:

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
(a) Olga Korbutt
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Michael Jackson in the name of NAMBLA
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) The Village People
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In April 1983, the American Embassy in Beirut was blown up killing 63 people, by:
(a) Carl Sagan
(b) A beach volleyball team gone bad
(c) Apaches
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In October 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up killing 242 soldiers, by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy
(b) The Backstreet Boys
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger in a wheelchair was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Maxine Waters and a gang of Marxists
(c) Jimmy Carter
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kidd
(b) Charles Lindberg
(c) Mother Teresa and 12 other militant nuns
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was destroyed killing 270 people by:
(a) Scooby Doo and the gang
(b) Blue Man Group
(c) ACLU Lawyers
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed by:
(a) Richard Simmons and the cast of Cats
(b) Grandma Moses and several other unidentified "primitive artists"
(c) Michael Jordan and his girlfriends
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's bimbo eruptions
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In October 2000, the USS Cole was attacked and 17 sailors killed by:
(a) Bert from Sesame Street
(b) Angry While Males
(c) Ice T
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed, and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Enron
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Sonny and Cher
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Lutheran Church
(c) The NFL Cheerleaders
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) The Spice Girls
(c) Billy Graham and the 700 Club
(d) Arab-Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Delta784

07-23-2005, 01:26 AM

Brick, have you seen the "Massachusetts Traffic Stop Data Collection Books" yet? It's PC carried to the point of insanity.......

Groundhog

07-23-2005, 02:15 AM

If they were deported where would they go? Back to their muslimist base camps in the middle east to train for bombing . That's not where we want them to go. We would need to intern illegal alien muslimists.

I dunno. Ask your buddy Michael Savage. It wasn't my original idea. He suggested it on his show tonight, and I thought it was a good idea.

Centurion44

07-23-2005, 02:40 AM

Yes. Show me a extremist muslim terrorist of anything other than ME decent and I'll rethink my ways.

Cinque

07-23-2005, 08:10 AM

BrickCop

07-23-2005, 08:26 AM

Sure, everyone who fits the description of Tim McVeigh, tall white male, christian, crewcut, clean shaven, militia type, let's just take him down immemdiately, he's a threat to national security, every white man who fits this mold is in deep sh-t.

I agree, I mean it's not like Oklahoma was an isolated incident. Why there's thousands of white males all over the world calling themselves the "Al-Caucasia". This evil group is known to hijack planes, decapitate civilians and conduct suicide bombing runs. :rolleyes:

Cinque

07-23-2005, 09:04 AM

SuperSix5

07-23-2005, 09:34 AM

By the way, none of this is new. There are probably not many of us on this board who were around for WWII, but just do a Google search on Japanese internment in the US during those years. Thousands of innocent Japanese-Americans, many born here, had their homes & assets seized and were forced into camps. Could something like that be around the corner if we are attacked again? And guess who would be on the front lines doing it?

If you haven't seen it already, check out the movie "The Siege." It was made back in 98 and deals with this exact issue. It's entertaining, and makes you think at the same time.

SR-25

07-23-2005, 04:38 PM

Call me racist, call me anything you want. We live in a different world now, and we need to protect outselves and our future generations. If "we" as society, (government) know the "type" of people that we are looking for then yes, racial profile away. Why would we NOT look at people that fit the bill?

Agreed. Going into this blind can and will get you killed.

BrickCop

07-23-2005, 04:51 PM

TXLady

07-23-2005, 05:02 PM

Ok you heard it here first folks. Cinque has compared, no he pracitically called the US terrorists. I suppose I should be happy for you because if you spoke out against one of the "peace loving" Muslim countries they'd impale your heart on a stick.

Pathetic.

Yeah, they would impale your heart on a stick AFTER they cut your head off and hang your body from a bridge. I have a hard time even considering these "terrorists" human beings. They don't value human life, their country or anything worth fighting for...only sick, twisted ideologies. They are like cockroaches. How do you fight something like this?

Cinque

07-23-2005, 05:08 PM

Brickcop,let's not play games here okay. I'm here to create intelligent dialogue, if you feel you don't fit that description fine. Another thing are you telling me everything I mentioned is not true either in history or in the present time, come on I thought you were more intelligent than that. As for the terrorist claim you pointed out let me explain something to you, this country has been the catalyst in creating terror, so don't play dumb with me brick. The U.S has its dirty hands in almost every countries affairs, am I wrong brickcop.

Lucky Seven

07-23-2005, 05:44 PM

No, these terrorists are far more dangerous and sinister. They so blatantly go into countries, plunder their natural resources, kill all their democratically elected leaders, blackmail nations, and scare the hell out of their own citizens with strategic bombings so they can give up their security and become a slave. Oh we're the U.S. Remember what Ben Franklin said, "they that give up essential liberty to attain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".

these terrorists are far more dangerous and sinister.

Please elaborate.

They so blatantly go into countries, plunder their natural resources, kill all their democratically elected leaders, blackmail nations, and scare the hell out of their own citizens with strategic bombings so they can give up their security and become a slave.

Please provide documented examples of each accusation.

Although the US is not perfect and some of its CIA excursions into foreign countries in the name of defending democracy are not without problems, I fail to see where you can categorically accuse the USA and it citizens of terrorism.

Please explain.

Cinque

07-23-2005, 06:21 PM

Lucky seven I'll be here all day giving you examples of u.s involvement in murders and assassination attempts around the world, so I won't give you everything their too long.

I will give you a few names for you to do your own research so you won't say it's false information. Patrice Lumumba, Maurice Bishop, Fidel Castro. These three should be enough for you. I'll give you more assignments when you're finished with these. Please don't conveniently omit any true details. People have the habit of picking and choosing what they want to see or print.

Look up these names and tell me if the U.S did not play a part in their demise and destruction.

SR-25

07-23-2005, 06:33 PM

Lucky seven I'll be here all day giving you examples of u.s involvement in murders and assassination attempts around the world, so I won't give you everything their too long.

Whats your point? The dirty work has to get done. It doesnt matter if you like it or agree with it. These "murders and assassination attempts" have probably saved many american lives. If your telling me I should feel bad because a few bad people got knocked off, Your barking up the wrong tree.

USP45FAN

07-23-2005, 06:56 PM

There are Muslim Extremists that come in all shapes, colors, and sizes. Remember that you have black muslims (Somalia), Asian Muslims (Indonesia), and white muslims (John Walker Lindh). I remember a muslim woman in college crying about being profiled after 9/11. Then I remembered, they were all muslims that carried out the attack, and that I didn't feel bad for her.

Look at it this way. When you are trying to pick up gang members, you look for the tattoos, colors, etc. Same principle when looking for terrorists, you just have different indicators.

I have also had this conversation with one of the guys in my National Guard unit, he is a Sunni Muslim male. He knows that he gets profiled when he's at home. I kinda pick his brain about things, and he picks my brain about how cops think. However, he is also deployed to Iraq with us right now, and is a fine soldier.

retired

07-23-2005, 09:05 PM

If your telling me I should feel bad because a few bad people got knocked off, Your barking up the wrong tree.

I didn't read that he was telling you or anyone else anything of the kind. He was providing examples of ruthless leaders in the world where the U.S. involved itself. You know, like Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Haiti, etc. You know, like how we supported the Taliban against Russia.

BrickCop

07-23-2005, 10:07 PM

I didn't read that he was telling you or anyone else anything of the kind. He was providing examples of ruthless leaders in the world where the U.S. involved itself. You know, like Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Haiti, etc. You know, like how we supported the Taliban against Russia.

No one is claiming that the US is perfect. We've made our fair share of mistakes (see Iraq). Having said that we are light years more civilized than the fanatical, bloodthirsty savages who's one goal is to annihilate every non- Muslim man, woman and child they possibly can.

To the blame America crowd I'm curious...what is your answer to this problem? Many of us have been told we're misguided, gung ho, bigoted, etc. Do the US critics have any other opinions/comments other than blaming the US (or comparing the US to the terrorists)? :confused:

Cinque

07-23-2005, 10:17 PM

Is it me or does retired seem to have the most sense on this panel. I was just providing examples where the U.S became involved that's all. Read between the lines people that's all I'm asking. Good Night.

Delta784

07-23-2005, 11:51 PM

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but so far, all the terrorists have been Muslim". - Jay Severin

retired

07-24-2005, 12:12 AM

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but so far, all the terrorists have been Muslim". - Jay Severin

Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim? :eek: :eek:

Delta784

07-24-2005, 12:23 AM

Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim? :eek: :eek:

There was a little event on September 11th, 2001 in the United States. Perhaps you've heard of it.

retired

07-24-2005, 12:58 AM

There was a little event on September 11th, 2001 in the United States. Perhaps you've heard of it.

How does that disqualify McVeigh as a non-Muslim terrorist?

Delta784

07-24-2005, 01:19 AM

How does that disqualify McVeigh as a non-Muslim terrorist?

He was a loner, and his only associate (Terry Nichols) ratted him out. McVeigh's "organization", such as it was, died with him.

Do you seriously think that the threat to the US from Islamic terrorists died with the hijackers on 9/11/01?

retired

07-24-2005, 02:03 AM

He was a loner, and his only associate (Terry Nichols) ratted him out. McVeigh's "organization", such as it was, died with him.

Do you seriously think that the threat to the US from Islamic terrorists died with the hijackers on 9/11/01?

Delta,

you're completely missing the point. I was merely responding to the tag line that all terrorists are Muslims, when that clearly isn't the case. McVeigh was one example of a terrorist that wasn't a Muslim. It has nothing to do with 911.

mosetti

07-24-2005, 05:59 AM

retired

07-24-2005, 10:29 AM

Is stopping middle eastern men in airports racial profiling? I am not really sure that it fits. The reality of the situation is that most hijackings have been conducted by middle eastern men, so isn't it prudent to stop and search those who fit that desciption?

Most bombings and kilings at abortion clinics are done by white christians, so is it prudent to stop and search white christians near abortion clinics? :confused:

mosetti

07-24-2005, 10:45 AM

Most bombings and kilings at abortion clinics are done by white christians, so is it prudent to stop and search white christians near abortion clinics? :confused:

No, just ones passing through security checkpoints at abortion clinics. I am not saying that racial profiling does not exist, just that if a particular action is nearly always undertaken by a certain group of people that persons belonging to that group should be checked extra carefully when passing through established security checkpoints. I would not extend that same thought process to improvised security checkpoints, such as those currently being run by NYPD.

Stonie

07-24-2005, 03:06 PM

Quopper

07-24-2005, 06:51 PM

FYI -- al Qaeda has quite a few blacks in their ranks. There are also quite a few pakistanis in their ranks. As some of you may or may not know, Pakistanis do not look "middle eastern" at all.

Should we round up all blacks and pakistanis in addition to people you think to be middle eastern?
Or should we just let everyone be and screw what may or may not happen?

I say to hell with it, if the government can't racial profile, then I guess cops shouldn't be able to stop someone for reasonable suspicion if they sort of match the target of a criminal activty, right?? :confused:

Geez, cut some slack here people, all forms of government from cops to the president need to be aware of "profiles" and need to act on them! How many serial killers would have been free for life if the "profile" tactic wasn't used??

retired

07-24-2005, 07:13 PM

Or should we just let everyone be and screw what may or may not happen?

I say to hell with it, if the government can't racial profile, then I guess cops shouldn't be able to stop someone for reasonable suspicion if they sort of match the target of a criminal activty, right?? :confused:

Geez, cut some slack here people, all forms of government from cops to the president need to be aware of "profiles" and need to act on them! How many serial killers would have been free for life if the "profile" tactic wasn't used??

Profiling serial killers is a behavioral science and investigation technique as opposed to profling someone merely because of their race. Serial killer profiling isn't done with the suspects knowledge or awareness as racial profiling is. Racial profiling can be offensive particularly to innocent people who consider it intrusive.

Reasonable suspicion has been ruled constitutional by the SC, and has nothing to do with racial profiling by itself.

Quopper

07-24-2005, 07:18 PM

Profiling serial killers is a behavioral science and investigation technique as opposed to profling someone merely because of their race. Serial killer profiling isn't done with the suspects knowledge or awareness as racial profiling is. Racial profiling can be offensive particularly to innocent people who consider it intrusive.

Reasonable suspicion has been ruled constitutional by the SC, and has nothing to do with racial profiling by itself.
I agree and understand retired, but how many "innocent" people have been handled in all different gov't organizations because of some type of profiling? Honestly, if you simplify the thought process it is all the same........ You are looking for a certain person that fits a certain profile based on race, religion, gender, etc.

savage4presiden

07-24-2005, 11:26 PM

Police work is more reactionary than proactive (i.e. they respond to crimes already committed). However, terrorism need to be prevented before it occurs. This will all come to a point soon. So, when a crime has been committed, a description is taken as to the identifying features of the criminal (no one argues that this is "profiling" because the identity is certain). This is reactionary.

However, we are fighting a new threat in the form of terrorism. The goal against terrorism is to be able to prevent it. How can you do that? By taking the "discription" of the criminal/terrorist before the crime has been committed. This is proactive. In this new day and age we are required to adapt. We do not do this by choice, but out of neccesity. There is nothing inherently racists about profiling.

acebpd0304

07-24-2005, 11:30 PM

Hell Yeah It Is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SR-25

07-25-2005, 02:33 AM

Centurion44

07-25-2005, 03:12 AM

Stonie

07-25-2005, 10:12 AM

The more I read O.com, the more I thank god that lawyers exist.

But dont you know its better to loose 1,000 civilians lives then to racial profile against one person from middle eastern decent, you might insult them... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with insult.

It has everything to do with the expectation that you should be treated equally no matter what your physical characteristics are.

savage4presiden

07-25-2005, 10:48 AM

It has nothing to do with insult.

It has everything to do with the expectation that you should be treated equally no matter what your physical characteristics are.

That's what the political hacks in the media want you to believe.

mobrien316

07-25-2005, 11:07 AM

I feel like anyone of Middle Eastern ethnicity who is found to be in this country illegally should be deported immediately.

Maybe my thoughts on this are a bit too extreme, but I tend to think that anyone found in this country who is here illegally should be deported immediately.

There are procedures in place to allow people to legally emigrate to this country, and those processes are more wide-open here than practically anyplace else in the world. If someone wants to circumvent those procedures then kick them out and don't let them back in.

The next question, after accomplishing that will be to re-examine the criteria for letting people into the country legally...

Stonie

07-25-2005, 11:34 AM

Umm, right. You know me, I'm so easily influenced by the media & bloggers. :rolleyes:

A little anecdote for you:

I have a friend with dark olive skin and curly hair. He regularly takes international flights for business -- he's flown internationally 10 times in the past 6 months on business for a defense contractor.

On 2 occasions he has missed flights thanks to profiling. He is of Italian descent but has been mistaken for being middle eastern because of his hair & skin tone.

Again, it has nothing to do with insult -- it cost both him and his employer time & money.

rugermk2

07-25-2005, 01:08 PM

Most bombings and kilings at abortion clinics are done by white christians, so is it prudent to stop and search white christians near abortion clinics? :confused:

Three abortion clinic related bombings/killings have occurred in recent history (1990s).

The most recent high-profile story was Eric Rudolph, who bombed a clinic in '98. Maybe you should research his beliefs. Most liberals would have us believe he is a committed fundamentalist Christian. However, as reported in USA Today and the Associated Press about two weeks ago, Rudolph is quoted ridiculing the Christians that send him Bibles in prison, and saying that he would prefer to read Nietzche rather than Jesus. Yeah, that humanist-existentialist stuff is what I read when I want to feel close to God. . . .

James Kopp, killer of Dr. Slepian in '98, did claim to be a Christian.

John Salvi was a paranoid, disturbed individual obsessed with conpiracy theories, who many professionals think was clinically insane. He committed suicide in his cell in '96.

Now, let's say it together like we mean it, "they were ALL white Christians. . . ." :rolleyes:

Brandon

retired

07-25-2005, 01:19 PM

T

Now, let's say it together like we mean it, "they were ALL white Christians. . . ." :rolleyes:

Brandon

I didn't say all, I said most. :rolleyes:

rugermk2

07-25-2005, 04:35 PM

Alright, you didn't say "all." One out of three still ain't "most," despite how you calculate it, however.

SuperSix5

07-25-2005, 07:24 PM

Again, it has nothing to do with insult -- it cost both him and his employer time & money.

Sorry that happened to your friend. However, I firmly believe that the lives of my friends, family, and fellow americans are worth than both his and his employer's time and money.

savage4presiden

07-25-2005, 08:58 PM

Again, it has nothing to do with insult -- it cost both him and his employer time & money.

So his time and money is worth risking national security? Bullcrap. You're friend is selfish

Bart

07-25-2005, 10:59 PM

Sorry that happened to your friend. However, I firmly believe that the lives of my friends, family, and fellow americans are worth than both his and his employer's time and money.

that is of course, until you find yourself in similar circumstances. :o

Bart

07-25-2005, 11:04 PM

Alright, you didn't say "all." One out of three still ain't "most," despite how you calculate it, however.

ah hell. thats one too many. i say we do as the great cong tancredo suggested the other day. lets nuke the christian and baptisist churches at the same time we nuke the mosques. that way, all this religious fighting will fall by the wayside and we can finally live in peace. ;)

retired

07-26-2005, 12:04 AM

Alright, you didn't say "all." One out of three still ain't "most," despite how you calculate it, however.

So what is your point with all this? :confused:

Gil

07-26-2005, 10:07 AM

I hate discussing this topic because I agree with racial profiling even as I admit that is degrading and doesn't always work. I don't see any way around it. But it needs to be used in combination with other tactics. For example, not only Middle Easterners are Muslim. We've got a whole bunch of people in Southeast Asians (Malaysians, etc.) that are Muslim as well. Not to mention some black and white people. And we've got all of these AQ franchises proppoing up.

It seems like people are okay with racial profiling as long as it is not their ethnic type that is being profiled. Let something else suffer the indignities. Why do white people complain so much when grandmothers and small kids are pulled aside and searched in airports? But it's okay if those middle-eastern people are pulled aside. Random searches should continue also.

Couldn't agree more....

rugermk2

07-26-2005, 11:43 AM

So what is your point with all this? :confused:

To point out your non-analogous comparison and false statement.

savage4presiden

07-26-2005, 12:40 PM

I think the reason we should only profile middle easterners is that they are the only ones with a recent history of terrorism in th U.S. We have too few resources to be able to profile every ME, Asian, black, and white person. We need to target the few resources we have at the biggest potential threat (i.e. middle easterners). Then we can work ourselves down the ladder of threats, going from greatest threat to least threat. For the time being, however, we need to stay focused on the greatest and most immediat threat.

Grandmothers and small kids pose no threat at all. It is okay that those middle easterners are pulled aside. If they were doing racial profiling before 9/11 then we would not have lost 3000 of our countrymen. Random searches do not work. You cannot find a terrorist "randomly" out of thousands of passengers a day. You need to profile the greatest threat. The objective of security should be to find terrorists, not let them pass a sub-standard screening process. Political correctness is killing America-literally.

Bklngirl

07-26-2005, 04:08 PM

It's not our fault that every terrorist is of ME descent.All arabs are not terrorists,but,all terrorists are arabs.I have not heard one Arab leader come out and condem terrorist cowards.Not one Arab condem any terrorist action.It's only Wah!poor us!After 9/11(right after)The Arab community on Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn N.Y danced in the street with Joy.I am so sorry the world now knows what The jewish Community and Isreal have known for years.That these are the people that are ruining the world.

savage4presiden

07-26-2005, 05:45 PM

Well said, Bikinigirl. :D :) :p

mobrien316

07-26-2005, 07:16 PM

All arabs are not terrorists,but,all terrorists are arabs.
If we think that way we open the door for more idiots like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Terrorists are like criminals - they come in every shape, color, age, ethnicity, and religion.

There is some evidence to suggest that McVeigh and Nichols had ties to Al Qaeda through Ramzi Youssef, the planner of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. I don't think it would be impossible for Al Qaeda to draft or hire non-Middle Eastern operatives to handle some of their attacks. We need to be alert for terrorists, not Middle Easterners or people who "look" Arabic.

savage4presiden

07-26-2005, 07:41 PM

We need to be alert for terrorists, not Middle Easterners or people who "look" Arabic.

Just how do we root out a white terrorist from a white crowd? At least you can root out the Middle Easterners from a white crowd, but the number of white terrorists is so much less in comparison to ME terrorists that it isn't even worth discussing.

mobrien316

07-26-2005, 07:58 PM

Just how do we root out a white terrorist from a white crowd? At least you can root out the Middle Easterners from a white crowd, but the number of white terrorists is so much less in comparison to ME terrorists that it isn't even worth discussing.
You can root out the terrorists in a crowd, regardless of color, by focusing on indications that tip you off to them being terrorists. Simply checking on all the Arabic-looking people and ignoring everyone else is stupid.

I realize there's a Eurocentric bias against the intelligence of everyone who isn't like us, but don't you think that most terrorist organizations are going to get the idea of using local psychos who look like everyone else in the region? Do you really think that's not going to occur to them?

savage4presiden

07-26-2005, 08:03 PM

I realize there's a Eurocentric bias against the intelligence of everyone who isn't like us, but don't you think that most terrorist organizations are going to get the idea of using local psychos who look like everyone else in the region? Do you really think that's not going to occur to them?

I think it would be a tactical mistake for terrorists to make. And I think they know it. If they go around attempting to recruit white "bombers" they will risk being discovered. Also, you can't check everybody. It's impossible. So, you have to focus your resources and check all Middle Easterners first because they are more likely to commit the act of terrorism.

Delta784

07-27-2005, 01:45 AM

Simply checking on all the Arabic-looking people and ignoring everyone else is stupid.

Not nearly as stupid as checking elderly ladies, while letting a group of three ME males through unchecked.

I realize there's a Eurocentric bias against the intelligence of everyone who isn't like us, but don't you think that most terrorist organizations are going to get the idea of using local psychos who look like everyone else in the region? Do you really think that's not going to occur to them?

That would be like trying to find someone to kill your wife.....the person "hired" is almost always an undercover police officer.

djack16

07-27-2005, 07:13 AM

That's what the political hacks in the media want you to believe.
You mean...that we have civil rights? Yea...damn those liberal whackos. :rolleyes: .

Full Circle: History's Life Story

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/dejack03/j11.gif

tony.o

07-28-2005, 03:38 AM

I already covered the above topic in the thread that was closed and nobody could honestly dispute what I had said about it. Thats where the other guy went "whacko" and got banned. Like I said before, the detention camps will open again with the blessing of the people, if we are badly hurt.

tony.o

07-28-2005, 03:41 AM

Delta784

07-28-2005, 03:47 AM

It's good to see that the rose does have some thorns.

Is any of that not factual?

tony.o

07-28-2005, 03:49 AM

that is of course, until you find yourself in similar circumstances. :oWhats up with this "I quit" stuff.

tony.o

07-28-2005, 03:59 AM

Is any of that not factual?I really am giving her a compliment, you should know that, if you've read anything I've ever posted. She usually talks about being nonjudgemental. I guess when the homeland is threatened and some of our men (especially "retired" ones) will not be the protectors, or use common sense, the women have to step in. The word "homeland" just hasn't sunk in with most people yet. I just hope that when it does, it will not be too late. You know, its kind of like the barbarians arriving on the outskirts of Rome and the Romans just now noticed that they were in trouble.

Gil

07-28-2005, 12:52 PM

BrickCop

07-28-2005, 01:00 PM

I But, the author of the article above loses credibility because he/she leaves out other acts of terrorism committed by non-middle muslims, like Tim McVeigh, etc.

McVeigh was an aberration of sorts. He was an evil bastard but it seems he is the token non- muslim Terrorist people can cite. Admittedly it will only be a mater of time before other ethnic/racial terrorists surface but to screen little old ladies as much as ME young males at this point would be assinine.

mosetti

07-28-2005, 01:45 PM

Stonie

07-28-2005, 04:00 PM

Here is a list from the State Department of terrorist attack since 1963:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

I didn't count, but most (especially since 1980) were committed by ME Terrorists.

One thing I noticed was that a good majority of these terrorist organizations were never heard from again after one or two attacks.

Kinda makes me stop and think what the common denominator with those organizations were/are ... Weak leadership? Bag org. security? Lack of funding? Difficulty recruiting members?

The Don

07-28-2005, 04:23 PM

keith758

07-28-2005, 04:42 PM

Lets look at it this way: You have a bank robber who just happens to be a 6'4" white guy partial to tennis shoes, blue jeans and colored t-shirts. If you are staking out a bank, are you going to bother with a 77-year-old, 5'8" black man in a suit? Hell no! You're going to watch out for the big white guy! This is about common sense and security, not "offending" someone. I happen to be a 6'4" white guy, and everytime I've flown for the past 3 years, I get searched, including my luggage. I don't get upset about it, and if they searched everyone, that would be OK with me. But tolerating this facade of security by searching old women and ignoring someone of Middle Eastern descent because of the fear of "profiling" is ludicrious.

savage4presiden

08-02-2005, 10:57 PM

[QUOTE=mobrien316]You can root out the terrorists in a crowd, regardless of color, by focusing on indications that tip you off to them being terrorists.
[QUOTE]

What methods do you suggest for checking for terrorists? Do you use a terrorist detecter from the local Wal-Mart? Maybe we could just ask everyone who walks through the gate, "are you a terroists? No? ok. I didn't think so." Damn! If we did that there wouldn't be any terroists left in the world. We could get rid of them overnight!

mosetti

08-03-2005, 01:32 AM

I am of Italian and Japanese decent and have flown quite a bit in the last year. I always get stopped and searched by security personnel. In fact I flew to Europe in Dec 2001 on military orders and had to go through JFK. I got stopped at least 3 times in JFK alone. I don't mind, I rather be safe and inconvenienced than dead.

mobrien316

08-03-2005, 11:02 AM

djack16

08-05-2005, 02:41 AM

mosetti

08-05-2005, 05:46 AM

I noticed that State Department "brief chronology" neglected to mention several Christian terrorists who assassinated doctors or bombed abortion clinics. You don't think these are significant? It is the fanaticism that is behind the crimes that makes people so dangerous. James C. Kopp and Eric Rudolph are two high-profile terrorists that come to mind both were white, male Christian adults.

I do not think they are significant enought as to impact this discussion. Whilst they are significant events, they are a different brand of terrorism with very specific targets and thus easier to combat. Thier attacks are against abortion clinics or doctors. The fanatical Islamic terrorist target areas that will cause the most carnage, but are not very specfic. They could attack a building, or a train, or a bus, or a crowded street, or a resturaunt, etc.

ColonelRivers

09-04-2005, 11:17 PM

ColonelRivers

09-04-2005, 11:27 PM

Mosetti
I purchased a car off ebay last winter and flew from Portland Oregon to San Diego Cal to get it. I arrive the car is not as advertised and a POS. I head back to the airport and buy a one way ticket home. I paid cash and had one carry on bag. I was in the security check for 45 minutes and got everything except an anal probe. I am a white woman 53 years old 6 foot tall with blue eyes and blonde hair. Do I fit the profile of a terrorist? Not really but I bought a one way ticket and had limited bagage oh and I paid cash. All of these are flags I am told later.
Better to be safe me thinks
CR

djack16

09-19-2005, 06:37 AM

I will says just these few words
Is terrorism ever ok?
Is killing inocent men women and children at work and play ever ok?
Is it ok to have rape rooms,mass killings and torture?
Is it ok to kill just for the sake of killing?
More people have died because someones God is better than someone elses.
I am sick of this crap and whatever we have to do to stop it is ok by me.
If it means blowing the middle east off the face of the map with 100 plane loads of nukes then so be it.
When the mushroom cloud settles call me up and let me know.
With a heavy heart
Ms CR
It's a pity your brain isn't as heavy as you're heart is said to be. :mad:

If it means blowing the middle east off the face of the map with 100 plane loads of nukes then so be it.
When the mushroom cloud settles call me up and let me know.
With a heavy heart

Quoted for emphasis...
Welcome to Terrorism 101. What the hell is wrong with people that they would even consider something this barbaric and foolish? You know there are human beings living out in the Middle East? I sure hope you didn't...I really hope you didn't.

hemicop

09-20-2005, 01:32 PM

Cinque,by your own own admission (public profile) yyou're a revolutionary & not in LE. For discussion purposes in a LE forum that alone makes you potentially dangerous. You approve of murder & terrorism by your peers in the name of "revolution" but when an entity (govt. or its representatives) does it you say it's wrong & you claim you seek justice :confused: . If profiling or killing a few extremists to insure mine & your right to this free forum I say it's well worth worth it. Perhaps you should look up Robin Williams Peace Plan. He seems to have a good grasp on our niche in the world & the world's view of us. I don't think you're here for inteligent debate. I think you're here to degrade & complain about the very people & place that insure yyour right to an opinion.

SO535

09-21-2005, 10:45 PM

There is something I need to say that I have yet to see posted already (or maybe I missed it).

I chose it's OK after an attack. Before you stop reading this post and brand me "one of them" please think about this.

One of the goals of these terrorists groups is to rally more muslims to their cause by attacking us. THEY KNOW that after they attack us we will discriminate and disrespect any muslim in sight and that we can get our hands on.

Not all muslims are against us. Some are very dedicated to supporting the United States and other countries in our mission. But when we go on the witch hunt we tend to make those that would be our allies into our enimies by seeking all muslims out and branding them one of the terrorists. These people live among us. They love america like the rest of us do. But when we witch hunt we are making more enimies among us. AND THE TERRORISTS WANT THIS TO HAPPEN. This is one of their goals.

I would like to think that all those nights I spent hot as hell, tired, sick, up to my elbows in bird**** on a Yemen rooftop was not in vain. I like to think that my sacrifice was pushing us in the direction to overcoming this and hoping those few (although well intentioned) would not shoot ourselves in the foot.

hemicop

09-22-2005, 08:10 AM

SO535 you're very right & thanks for your service. Shortly after 9/11 I had the privilege of helping train Saudi LEOs. Like any other group their attitude ranged from pro- U.S. to anti & we all took it in stride. The problem we have here in the U.S. i think is we don't understand their allegience to a religion over a country or its people. These "terrorist muslims" couldn't care less about anyone much less the U.S. & you know that far better than me,I'm sure. You also know covert combatants, as by nature terrorists are, are the hardest to locate & deal with. A "hearts & minds" program as was conducted in Viet Nam has minimal effect & can take a long time to produce results. I don't have an answer but until we can find a way to isolate terrorists without offending anyone we need to handle the problem in a way that insures the safety of the majority. In this case (here in the U.S) that means profiling. If ANYONE has a better idea,I'd love to hear it

savage4presiden

09-23-2005, 04:46 PM

This may sound extreme, but I think every mosque should be broken down in an effort to find the terrorists. If we are really serious about preventing another attack that is the best way we can do it. I can anticipate the objection to this argument, "you can't do that. It would violate their right of religion." No it wouldn't. Did anybody complain when the Catholic church was gutted of its clergy who were alleged to be "gay-baiters?" In the same way that the Catholic church was put to shame we need to find the terrorists and their sympathizers.

hemicop

09-24-2005, 09:59 PM

That Guy

09-25-2005, 12:28 AM

savage4presiden

09-25-2005, 03:26 PM

I can understand your frustration with whole terrorist profiling thing, but if you have rats in your pantry you don't tear down the pantry. You clean it,bait it,& if necessary you set traps to out right kill the rats! PERHAPS the best way to locate terrorists is to work from within. We could learn some lessons from the Israeli & Russian intel. svces. who seem to have a better grasp on HUMINT tan we do.

I agree about working from within. However, doesn't that require cooperation from within the muslim community? I don't see any muslimists too eager to turn their terrorist brothers over to the authorities. Do you?

hemicop

09-28-2005, 04:28 AM

They're out there. I've seen more than 1 muslim call the police because he thought something was odd. Without going into details, it worked out great & the people were brought in for questioning. The point is, whether they are turned in or the located by good UC work I think profiling is fair, but tearing the whole place down is a big mistake

1sgkelly

09-29-2005, 11:31 AM

savage4presiden

09-29-2005, 04:15 PM

MDS

10-02-2005, 12:22 PM

I voted: Generally yes, the majority of Terrorists have been of ME descent.

Here's why: I'm a Canadian now living in the U.S and if for some reason suddenly there was a notorious terrorist group from eastern Canada which were made up of white protestant males, I would not be offended in the least if I was checked over thoroughly. Why? Because I want to be protected from them also! Think about it! What is more important, someones rights or their protection? I'm certainly not saying rights are not important, but in the grand heiarchy of things, protection of life trumps rights every time. That isn't some right wing extremist propaganda, it's common sense.

I'll grant that profiling can become a bad weapon in the wrong hands (if a PO wanted to harass someone if they turned out to be a racist for example), but so can any tool or grant of power, can't it? The system ain't perfect, but it's the best we've got, I believe.

AKFireCop

11-21-2005, 02:25 AM

Bklngirl

11-22-2005, 12:58 PM

El Al (Israeli Airlines) always has been very successful at stopping terrorists before anything happens.They don't give a damn about being politically correct.I know this Israeli gut who worked for EL AL in Israel,he once caught a guy that was every terrorist list,he had dual citizenship,and said to my friend ;"I'm an Israeli citizen.My friend said'I don't care if you're my mother,I don't care if you're my father,I 'm checking your bags".

mcsar1

11-24-2005, 10:21 PM

OK I'm going to jump on this subject, although I'll probably regret it. First of all, I'm a Vietnam combat veteran and I love my country but I'll be the first to state that our foreign policy of 35 years ago isn't any better than today. Our politicians of the sixties threw us into a war that we could never win and now, 35 years later, I nearly cry every time I see Americans being killed in Iraq. It too is a war we can't and won't win. The US has a long history of butting in. Sometimes it works (Afghanistan, Kuwait) but most times it doesn't (Iraq, Iran, Vietnam).

That being said, I may not like racial profiling but it is a necessary evil. Blacks commit over 99% of the crimes in my county, so we look for blacks as suspects (my county has 24000 blacks and only 4000 whites). Is that racial profiling? We dont look for hispanics or whites unless there is good reason. Since Muslims, both male and female, have committed 99.9% of the terrorist attacks around the world, then we have no choice but to employ racial/ethnic/religious profiling, no matter how distasteful it may be.

Watchman

11-26-2005, 04:49 PM

Until we reconize the fact the Muslims want to exterminate "Christians" we are going to get our asses kicked right here in our own cities.

Lets quit puzzyfooting around and get to the heart of the problem.

The Muslims believe that they are engaged in a CRUSADE...a continuing crusade that was started in the 14th century.

They are the ENEMY.Playing with the enemy will get you killed. Letting the enemy live and breed unmolested will only result in future conflicts.

There will always be a conflict in the Middle East. Always.

There has always been and there will always be.

The only thing that is ever gonna change is how we deal with it...

mcsar1

11-26-2005, 07:09 PM

There's no question that we're in a new Holy War called "The Crusades 2005", pitting Muslims worldwide against everyone else.

That Guy

11-26-2005, 08:32 PM

Watchman

11-28-2005, 10:57 PM

My suggestion is stay out of there and let them continue. Lets protect out borders and worry about ourselves.

Nah...makes too much sense....

and besides....

there aint as much money in it... :eek:

Jack Price

01-10-2006, 05:30 PM

Profiling is a usful tool for a number of areas of police work. Race is often an element of the profile, along with many other factors that fit what the majority of your past offenders for the particular crime/activity. By "racial profiling", I (and probably most folks) assume that the only element of your profile is race. This is worthless and wastes more time and effort than the random searches of little old ladies in wheelchairs at the airport.

FedLEO83

01-14-2006, 06:03 AM

Generally, yes. In fact my last federal agency specifically said, stop and question any middle easterners in certain areas, or those photographing/video taping areas. After checking IDs and escorting from the areas/confiscasting film, those names were to be forwarded to Army Intelligence for further investigation.

Political correctness has never won any wars, nor has it kept anyone safe.
I agree with you. It is difficult to ignore the fact that those who were involved in the 9/11 attack, the first WTC bombing, and subsequent arrests and convictions, were of ME background. Wow! We cannot ignore it. There is nothing wrong with checking someone out. I would think that an innocent person from the ME would want us to be diligent as well. After all, people from the ME that are peaceful do not want to lose their life because some ideological zealot from the ME cannot control him/herself.
We are here to keep everyone safe, and profiling individuals from the ME is just one way to do it. This is quick, but it is mho that I wanted to share here.

djack16

01-19-2006, 06:20 PM

Until we reconize the fact the Muslims want to exterminate "Christians" we are going to get our asses kicked right here in our own cities.

I know that not all Christians want to exterminate homosexuals but there are large numbers that do in other parts of the world. Do I declare they all want to? Hell no. This is an unfair generalization. There are plenty of Muslim Americans who are concerned with raising their families in their faith (however demented it may be) and earning a living. Living the American dream.

Lets quit puzzyfooting around and get to the heart of the problem.

The Muslims believe that they are engaged in a CRUSADE...a continuing crusade that was started in the 14th century.

They are the ENEMY.Playing with the enemy will get you killed. Letting the enemy live and breed unmolested will only result in future conflicts.

You don't seem to even know what your enemy is. They are fundamentalist Muslims; radicals who want to bring the world under their ONE TRUE GOD by any means necessary. :rolleyes: . Christianity was as barbaric as Islam back in the day.

There will always be a conflict in the Middle East. Always.

There has always been and there will always be.

I don't agree that it will ALWAYS be that way. Social reforms are slow going in that part of the world but progress is not unachievable. Ultimately their own people will have to snap out of it...which will require them to, at the very least, reform their beliefs. Not easy.

The only thing that is ever gonna change is how we deal with it...
And in doing so we cannot become monsters or abandon our own values. The gift of freedom and democracy that allows us to live our dreams is so very important. You can't EVER take that away from a fellow American for simply being a Muslim or Christian or anything else. It wouldn't be America at that point.

SR-25

01-20-2006, 01:34 PM

You don't seem to even know what your enemy is. They are fundamentalist Muslims; radicals who want to bring the world under their ONE TRUE GOD by any means necessary. :rolleyes: . Christianity was as barbaric as Islam back in the day.
You cant compare it to running planes into buildings and using car bombs to hurt innocent people.

And in doing so we cannot become monsters or abandon our own values. The gift of freedom and democracy that allows us to live our dreams is so very important. You can't EVER take that away from a fellow American for simply being a Muslim or Christian or anything else. It wouldn't be America at that point.

Yes I agree with this to a point. But, in the interest of Homeland Security, some of the freedoms might have to be bent so 3,000 more people dont DIE.

Watchman

01-20-2006, 02:16 PM

I know that not all Christians want to exterminate homosexuals but there are large numbers that do in other parts of the world. Do I declare they all want to? Hell no. This is an unfair generalization. There are plenty of Muslim Americans who are concerned with raising their families in their faith (however demented it may be) and earning a living. Living the American dream.

I have no gripe with Muslims that want live here in peace. If you knew ANYTHING about the Muslim religion, then would would know that if you are a devout Muslim, Christians are your enemy. In your little world of Cailfornia it may not be politcally correct to say that, but in the rest of the U.S where its not illegal to speak the truth it is openly discussed.

You don't seem to even know what your enemy is. They are fundamentalist Muslims; radicals who want to bring the world under their ONE TRUE GOD by any means necessary. . Christianity was as barbaric as Islam back in the day.

My enemy is anyone that wants to exterminate me, my family,my way of life.
Christianity was a barbaric as Isam ? What period of history are you talking about? The one where Christians were exterminated on sight, or the rest of the time ?

I don't agree that it will ALWAYS be that way. Social reforms are slow going in that part of the world but progress is not unachievable. Ultimately their own people will have to snap out of it...which will require them to, at the very least, reform their beliefs. Not easy.

Reform their beliefs ? How are they gonna do that ? They have been killing each other for several thousand years, since the days of Moses.Thats all that they know. You dont seem to understand that with the more radical Muslims that the ultimate peace can only be obtained when Christianity is eliminated. Not before. If you dont know that, you had better study up on the subject before you make assumptions.

And in doing so we cannot become monsters or abandon our own values. The gift of freedom and democracy that allows us to live our dreams is so very important. You can't EVER take that away from a fellow American for simply being a Muslim or Christian or anything else. It wouldn't be America at that point.

Wanting to live in peace and freedom is by no means abandoning anything. The reason that we enjoy the gift of freedom, and deomocracy is because we have always been willing to defend it from those that would take it away from us. But first, you must reconize the enemy. We didnt reconize the Japs as enemys in WW2 until they jumped us first. We didnt reconize the Germans as enemys until they had seized most of Europe. Now we have an enemy that flies planes into buildings, and TELLS us that more is to come and you try to use this touch feely dialogue on me whiile telling me that its UNAMERICAN to see the enemy for who he is? I could care less about the ones that live here in peace and intend to do so. They are not part of the threat.

There IS a real threat out there and if you dont/wont or cant reconize it, then you are as much a part of the problem as those that want to eliminate Americans at all cost.

SR-25

01-20-2006, 03:58 PM

djack16

01-20-2006, 10:23 PM

You cant compare it to running planes into buildings and using car bombs to hurt innocent people.

Are you joking? This has got to be a joke. Systematic extermination of infidels ring a bell? Beheadings, torture, drawing and quartering, etc.

Yes I agree with this to a point. But, in the interest of Homeland Security, some of the freedoms might have to be bent so 3,000 more people dont DIE.
Duh. But how far does one take this notion. Some people want all professed Muslims out of this country. My beef is with this focusing on people for their heritage or their professed religion; using incomplete information to form a profile and wanting to act on it.

djack16

01-20-2006, 10:49 PM

I have no gripe with Muslims that want live here in peace. If you knew ANYTHING about the Muslim religion, then would would know that if you are a devout Muslim, Christians are your enemy. In your little world of Cailfornia it may not be politcally correct to say that, but in the rest of the U.S where its not illegal to speak the truth it is openly discussed.

It's funny; you couldn't even PRETEND to know my position on this. I HATE Islam. I HATE that religion. I don't like religion very much but Islam has got to be on the list. I know plenty about that religion because I actually read the Quran. You think I don't know who a fundamentalist Muslim's enemy is? Get real. I'm probably one of their worst ones.

BTW there is no law in California against speaking the truth. Maybe in Hillbilly Heaven they teach you all sorts of baloney like that. Also I am not demanding anybody be "politically correct." Just simply "correct."

My enemy is anyone that wants to exterminate me, my family,my way of life.
Christianity was a barbaric as Isam ? What period of history are you talking about? The one where Christians were exterminated on sight, or the rest of the time ?

You said, then, that Muslims are your enemies. Why? Because you said Muslims want to exterminate Christians. That's a terribly irresponsible statement. Oh and the period I am talking about is the 11th through 13th centuries. I guess also through the 16th century but it was a long time. There was more violence before that as well.

Reform their beliefs ? How are they gonna do that ? They have been killing each other for several thousand years, since the days of Moses.Thats all that they know. You dont seem to understand that with the more radical Muslims that the ultimate peace can only be obtained when Christianity is eliminated. Not before. If you dont know that, you had better study up on the subject before you make assumptions.

I understand how fundamentalist Muslims plan to achieve their peace. It doesn't matter though. Even the most draconian measures to silence masses can only be effective for so long. People learn and think but sometimes it takes a LONG time. It's not impossible. Improbable? Oh yea...not a very good chance of that happening in the youngest person's lifetime. But possible, yes.

Wanting to live in peace and freedom is by no means abandoning anything. The reason that we enjoy the gift of freedom, and deomocracy is because we have always been willing to defend it from those that would take it away from us. But first, you must reconize the enemy. We didnt reconize the Japs as enemys in WW2 until they jumped us first. We didnt reconize the Germans as enemys until they had seized most of Europe.

And what did we do then? We took innocent people and shut them away in internment camps. We took one of the same measures Nazi Germany took with their "enemies." Japanese men and women who worked jobs and supported their families were thrust into horrific conditions in the name of Homeland Security. I defy ANYBODY to justify those measures.

Now we have an enemy that flies planes into buildings, and TELLS us that more is to come and you try to use this touch feely dialogue on me whiile telling me that its UNAMERICAN to see the enemy for who he is? I could care less about the ones that live here in peace and intend to do so. They are not part of the threat.

Funny. You think knowing how to PROPERLY IDENTIFY ONE'S ENEMIES is a touchy feely approach to victory. Bull. Let me quote you identifying your enemies;
Until we reconize the fact the Muslims want to exterminate "Christians" we are going to get our asses kicked right here in our own cities.
Foot in mouth much?

There IS a real threat out there and if you dont/wont or cant reconize it, then you are as much a part of the problem as those that want to eliminate Americans at all cost.
I know what the threat and it isn't hard recognize. This isn't campaign 2008 so put your "liberals don't know how to defend America!" rhetoric on the shelf. We can discern a radical terrorist from an American family contrary to the lies you've no doubt been spoon-fed.

djack16

01-20-2006, 10:51 PM

Theres still a big number of people in California that still openly discuss this truth. Its the celebrities that make it seem like all Californians are a bunch of bleeding heart liberals.
California is solidly a blue state. We appreciate the truth just like any other in America.

Watchman

01-20-2006, 11:15 PM

djack16...

Interesting response. :D

rohlarin

01-23-2006, 09:44 PM

THIS SITE IS PRIMARILY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PROFESSIONALS. Bashing them has no place here.

rohlarin

01-23-2006, 09:55 PM

THIS SITE IS PRIMARILY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT PROFESSIONALS. Bashing them has no place here.

nobody33

02-02-2006, 10:58 PM

California is solidly a blue state. We appreciate the truth just like any other in America.
Solidly Blue? I have lived in CA my whole life- so cal specifically.. and none of the counties I have lived in were "blue." Nor were they liberal. In fact, some areas of california are the most "red" and conserative in the country. Outside of LA, and the bay area, not much of CA is left leaning or blue. Check out a county by county map in the last election.

NewCenturion

02-02-2006, 11:21 PM

California is solidly a blue state. We appreciate the truth just like any other in America.

Uh yeah, what Nobody33 said. Cali is NOT all UC Berserkley or the Bay area, or LaLa Land. This is a very conservative state, despite all of the "life is precious, even for child molesters" laws put into place each January.

Obviously you do not live "Behind the Orange Curtain". Orange County makes the Attiila the Hun regime look like a Socialist Worker meeting with an ACLU mixer afterwards. San Diego County is just right of that (thank GOD, however incorrect that may be). If it's law & order and national security, I'm Attila the gawddamn Hun...

I like your controversial style, sort of, and really would like more feedback once you go through additional training, but I would recommend travelling to the middle east (military is always hiring) about a half dozen times like I have, and not for pleasure either (you'll find very little of it there). Everything else is abstract book knowledge until then. This ******es off my braniac sister who has an international relations degree to no end when we debate world affairs, but it really changes your perspective on things you thought you had dialed in.

Islam is not a religion of peace, wherever it is practiced, and your constitutional rights do not protect you against criminal/terrorist conduct. Everyone thinks their constitutional rights are absolute. Not so...I believe in due process, the orginal spirit and letter of the law of the constitution, not the whorehouse activists have made of it in the courts. If you have nothing to hide, you can stand the scrutiny. It's funny how these folks say "America is evil! America is the Devil!" and expect no scrutiny (I have first amendment rights infidel!). The first and fourth amendments are not your personal security blankets indemnifying your hatred. F**k 'em...Hire a lawyer.

PS I have Iranian in-laws. They despise thes MFs twice as much as I do.

NewCenturion

02-02-2006, 11:39 PM

It's funny; you couldn't even PRETEND to know my position on this. I HATE Islam. I HATE that religion. I don't like religion very much but Islam has got to be on the list. I know plenty about that religion because I actually read the Quran. You think I don't know who a fundamentalist Muslim's enemy is? Get real. I'm probably one of their worst ones.

BTW there is no law in California against speaking the truth. Maybe in Hillbilly Heaven they teach you all sorts of baloney like that. Also I am not demanding anybody be "politically correct." Just simply "correct."

You said, then, that Muslims are your enemies. Why? Because you said Muslims want to exterminate Christians. That's a terribly irresponsible statement. Oh and the period I am talking about is the 11th through 13th centuries. I guess also through the 16th century but it was a long time. There was more violence before that as well.

I understand how fundamentalist Muslims plan to achieve their peace. It doesn't matter though. Even the most draconian measures to silence masses can only be effective for so long. People learn and think but sometimes it takes a LONG time. It's not impossible. Improbable? Oh yea...not a very good chance of that happening in the youngest person's lifetime. But possible, yes.

And what did we do then? We took innocent people and shut them away in internment camps. We took one of the same measures Nazi Germany took with their "enemies." Japanese men and women who worked jobs and supported their families were thrust into horrific conditions in the name of Homeland Security. I defy ANYBODY to justify those measures.

Funny. You think knowing how to PROPERLY IDENTIFY ONE'S ENEMIES is a touchy feely approach to victory. Bull. Let me quote you identifying your enemies;

Foot in mouth much?

I know what the threat and it isn't hard recognize. This isn't campaign 2008 so put your "liberals don't know how to defend America!" rhetoric on the shelf. We can discern a radical terrorist from an American family contrary to the lies you've no doubt been spoon-fed.

You and I weren't around for Pearl Harbor, but I have been there (twice) so I kinda understand the whole internment camp thing, however unfair Manzanar or Guantanamo Bay must seem to you. On my most recent trip there, Japanese tourists showed up in limos, laughing like donkeys. By the end of the USS Arizona tour, they were (rightfully) in fear for their life. And they got a huge check for reparations, which is more than most have gotten. Wartime sucks. Don't blame folks for being afraid of people they believe are trying to kill them. Many of them actually are, or could care less about it one way or another.

Haven't been to Hiroshima yet, but rest assured I won't be showing up drunk in a limo and LMAO at the site. Different cultures have different ways of looking at history and world events. We have a pretty good system here, despite its problems. You'll see this when (or if) you decide to travel and open your eyes to the world...

Oh yeah, as much as it pains me to say it because the wife is still shedding her liberalness, liberals DO NOT know how to defend the world. Too busy getting triple soy lattes and criticizing anybody who does anything while doing NOTHING. Lotsa whining, and finger pointing, and protesting (for what it seems unclear), but without duty, service, commitment, honor, or even purpose.

There are some compassionate people who are liberal, but what a waste of talent and ability. You can be socially conscious, and still be based in reality; it is possible. There are rare exceptions, but almost non-existent for practical purposes. Kinda like law & order: You either are on the side of the prosecution, or on the scum-sucking werewolf child molester defense lawyer side (hope I managed to stay objective here).

JohnnyLawman

03-06-2006, 05:30 PM

Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'

Keep movin', movin', movin',
Though they're disapprovin',
Keep them doggies movin' Rawhide!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just rope and throw and grab 'em,
Soon we'll be living high and wide.

Move 'em on, head 'em up,
Head 'em up, move 'em out,
Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!
Set 'em out, ride 'em in
Ride 'em in, let 'em out,
Cut 'em out, ride 'em in Rawhide.

;) :D

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/televisiontvthemelyrics-sciencefictionwesterns/rawhide.htm

yeah, next time a crime is perpetrated on you or a loved one..... just tell the LEO "a "human" did it" :D

djack16

03-27-2006, 08:24 AM

Solidly Blue? I have lived in CA my whole life- so cal specifically.. and none of the counties I have lived in were "blue." Nor were they liberal. In fact, some areas of california are the most "red" and conserative in the country. Outside of LA, and the bay area, not much of CA is left leaning or blue. Check out a county by county map in the last election.
Let me rephrase. We are sinfully liberal. I haven't been too disappointed with the issues we have digested. County by county maps make the whole US look like a bunch of Bush-loving fanatics. Blue was a stupid choice of wording on my part.
I like your controversial style, sort of, and really would like more feedback once you go through additional training, but I would recommend travelling to the middle east (military is always hiring) about a half dozen times like I have, and not for pleasure either (you'll find very little of it there). Everything else is abstract book knowledge until then.
Even when it comes from the mouths of soldiers who have served there? You think I haven't dug into the questions for these positions?
Islam is not a religion of peace, wherever it is practiced, and your constitutional rights do not protect you against criminal/terrorist conduct. Everyone thinks their constitutional rights are absolute. Not so...I believe in due process, the orginal spirit and letter of the law of the constitution, not the whorehouse activists have made of it in the courts.
It sounds like you are trying to say that any practicing of Islam is Terrorist Islam. Then you go on and act like you understand the constitution like it's some sort of esoteric text.
If you have nothing to hide, you can stand the scrutiny.
I can just IMAGINE the fun an overzealous administration could have if this was legislated. Sorry pal but in this country we should be secure in our dwellings unless we actually commit crimes and warrant a reasonable invasion of our privacy.

And, no, dissenting or practicing Islam alone is not enough for that. Key words here are "incomplete profile."
It's funny how these folks say "America is evil! America is the Devil!" and expect no scrutiny (I have first amendment rights infidel!). The first and fourth amendments are not your personal security blankets indemnifying your hatred. F**k 'em...Hire a lawyer.
People should be able to voice their dissent freely as long as they are not calling for violence or sedition. I'm personally offended by people saying that about this country but they shouldn't have government agents up every orifice because they disagree with them.
PS I have Iranian in-laws. They despise thes MFs twice as much as I do.
That's nice to know. It still doesn't carry any weight though.
You and I weren't around for Pearl Harbor, but I have been there (twice) so I kinda understand the whole internment camp thing, however unfair Manzanar or Guantanamo Bay must seem to you.
Make no mistake; I understand it perfectly.
On my most recent trip there, Japanese tourists showed up in limos, laughing like donkeys. By the end of the USS Arizona tour, they were (rightfully) in fear for their life.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. Maybe a little farther down the post...
And they got a huge check for reparations, which is more than most have gotten. Wartime sucks. Don't blame folks for being afraid of people they believe are trying to kill them. Many of them actually are, or could care less about it one way or another.
One; I will blame them for it as I please. It wasn't the first time in history that this idiotic form of "homeland security" measures was taken yet it was still done anyways. Two; are you suggesting that the internment camps actually prevented what our government at the time was seeking to prevent? Because the facts are quite to the contrary of that.
Haven't been to Hiroshima yet, but rest assured I won't be showing up drunk in a limo and LMAO at the site. Different cultures have different ways of looking at history and world events. We have a pretty good system here, despite its problems. You'll see this when (or if) you decide to travel and open your eyes to the world...
Thankfully I've had the opportunity to meet with people who did just that. Travelled and seen the devastation. My eyes aren't closed; this is just the mantra the right generally uses to try and end a difference in their favor. I do not believe the Japanese culture's "way of looking at history" involves mocking the events of WWII. In fact, I think that is one of the poorest generalizations I have heard. You see a group of obviously idiotic Japanese tourists laughing during a tour of Pearl Harbor, like "donkeys," and you say the culture does this? Our system of looking at history SUCKS. Why? Because we are HAVING THIS DISCUSSION! Wow...if I can stop laughing I'll go on.
Oh yeah, as much as it pains me to say it because the wife is still shedding her liberalness, liberals DO NOT know how to defend the world. Too busy getting triple soy lattes and criticizing anybody who does anything while doing NOTHING. Lotsa whining, and finger pointing, and protesting (for what it seems unclear), but without duty, service, commitment, honor, or even purpose.
Typical right wing ignorance. Might want to take off those GOP-goggles and meet up with us in the real world. There are liberal legislators, soldiers, doctors, lawyers, police officers, firemen, etc. Duty, service, committment, honor, and ESPECIALLY purpose have been a common force in my family and we have had plenty in the services. I'm surprised your party hasn't clued you in on what arguments NOT to use.

Also; don't EVER disrespect my White Chocolate Mocha or I'll speed down to your house using every preferential lane I can while cradling my cell phone ranting about this and that.
There are some compassionate people who are liberal, but what a waste of talent and ability. You can be socially conscious, and still be based in reality; it is possible. There are rare exceptions, but almost non-existent for practical purposes.
More ridiculous and unsubstantiated assertions. The "most liberals aren't compassionate" part made me laugh so I guess we got something out of it.

And finally you seal it all up with even more typical right-wing bullcrud. "If you not on the prosecution's side, YOU'RE GUILTY!" I love you guys. Are you going to be around all week?

1042 Trooper

03-27-2006, 01:11 PM

Let me rephrase. We are sinfully liberal. I haven't been too disappointed with the issues we have digested. County by county maps make the whole US look like a bunch of Bush-loving fanatics. Blue was a stupid choice of wording on my part.

Even when it comes from the mouths of soldiers who have served there? You think I haven't dug into the questions for these positions?

It sounds like you are trying to say that any practicing of Islam is Terrorist Islam. Then you go on and act like you understand the constitution like it's some sort of esoteric text.

I can just IMAGINE the fun an overzealous administration could have if this was legislated. Sorry pal but in this country we should be secure in our dwellings unless we actually commit crimes and warrant a reasonable invasion of our privacy.

And, no, dissenting or practicing Islam alone is not enough for that. Key words here are "incomplete profile."

People should be able to voice their dissent freely as long as they are not calling for violence or sedition. I'm personally offended by people saying that about this country but they shouldn't have government agents up every orifice because they disagree with them.

That's nice to know. It still doesn't carry any weight though.

Make no mistake; I understand it perfectly.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Maybe a little farther down the post...

One; I will blame them for it as I please. It wasn't the first time in history that this idiotic form of "homeland security" measures was taken yet it was still done anyways. Two; are you suggesting that the internment camps actually prevented what our government at the time was seeking to prevent? Because the facts are quite to the contrary of that.

Thankfully I've had the opportunity to meet with people who did just that. Travelled and seen the devastation. My eyes aren't closed; this is just the mantra the right generally uses to try and end a difference in their favor. I do not believe the Japanese culture's "way of looking at history" involves mocking the events of WWII. In fact, I think that is one of the poorest generalizations I have heard. You see a group of obviously idiotic Japanese tourists laughing during a tour of Pearl Harbor, like "donkeys," and you say the culture does this? Our system of looking at history SUCKS. Why? Because we are HAVING THIS DISCUSSION! Wow...if I can stop laughing I'll go on.

Typical right wing ignorance. Might want to take off those GOP-goggles and meet up with us in the real world. There are liberal legislators, soldiers, doctors, lawyers, police officers, firemen, etc. Duty, service, committment, honor, and ESPECIALLY purpose have been a common force in my family and we have had plenty in the services. I'm surprised your party hasn't clued you in on what arguments NOT to use.

Also; don't EVER disrespect my White Chocolate Mocha or I'll speed down to your house using every preferential lane I can while cradling my cell phone ranting about this and that.

More ridiculous and unsubstantiated assertions. The "most liberals aren't compassionate" part made me laugh so I guess we got something out of it.

And finally you seal it all up with even more typical right-wing bullcrud. "If you not on the prosecution's side, YOU'RE GUILTY!" I love you guys. Are you going to be around all week?

What a maroon. What an ignoramous. What a.....CALIFORNIAN :D

Wait a minute...that's where I'm from......OH MY GOD! HELP ME!!!

nemesis

04-07-2006, 01:32 PM

Absolutely. Stopping someone and checking them doens't mean they are being convicted of anything. It's just a precaution. Any reasonable person should understand. It's certainly no worse than setting up a road block near an area that is full of taverns at 2:00 in the morning. The only ones I hear complaining about that are the drunks that get caught.

jerrymaccauley

04-07-2006, 03:58 PM

THX1138

08-05-2006, 11:01 PM

Very true Jerry... something many people are loath to accept.

to the others:

I've read the koran many times in arabic, and none of the stuff i hear about it is warranted. i've often read twisted translations, especially prevalent on the internet, which are often (though not exclusively) written by non-muslims, and are so far from the original text as to make it laughable (if it wasn't so sickening). in fact, the first time i ever read the koran was an english translation published by penguin, which in hindsight was awful. i am so grateful i have had the opportunity to learn arabic and learn the truth for myself. otherwise, i would probably think the same as many of you.

having said this, it doesn't mean there aren't nutters out there who are ignorant of the islamic faith and practice wicked customs... the taliban were a sickening stain on islamic history (and continue to be so), and the saudis aren't really doing a good job either. Terrorism, female genital mutilation, forced marriages, anti-semitism, gender inequality... etc. etc. these things do exist. Anti-semitism in particular is rife, and i've always regarded it with utter disdain. But despite the efforts of many to paint a picture of these things being representative of islam and muslims, they simply are not. I am muslim. I read the koran literally. Anyone who wants to say a bad word about me and my faith should come to visit me in london. see how i live. learn what i believe, and you'd be ashamed for thinking what you think about muslims (if you're into crass generalisations). Oh, and i'm not some anomaly... in the UK, especially in my generation, I am quite the norm. I'm happy to hang out with my friends down the pub, with a nice chilled beer - did you know that alcohol is not forbidden in the koran? didn't think so (try and quote me wrong, all you avid koran-knowers). look around the uk, and you'll find lots of people like me... not extreme, just normal, decent, law-abiding people. ok, were not ultra-conservative war-mongers... sorry. you can't have it all your way.

RE: the topic...

i've been searched loads when travelling by plane... never had a problem with it, except for once when it was done with such obvious disrespect by someone who obviously either had sub-standard social skills, or was ****ing their pants with fear... either way, i shouldn't be angry but rather feel sorry for them.

all other times, it has been good natured, often with a joke and a laugh. that's the way it should be. maybe your methods are different in america. when i was visiting relatives in egypt, everyone i met who had travelled to the US complained of how badly they were treated. they said americans must hate muslims. judging by these posts, they seem to be right.

sad, seeing as these people are the best hope for combating extremism... mainstream, orthodox muslims who genuinely do believe in peace, justice, democracy, equality etc... the majority whose voices are marginalised in your discourse - they are by far the most powerful weapon we have against AQ... better than any military or other weapons. shame that your policies are alienating them in their droves.

here in london, of course profiling is practised to an extent, but right now, the best efforts are being put into making the relationships between disparate communities better, making sure that minority communities feel safe and included, as well as protecting the wider community... and you know what this leads to? collaberation. intelligence. little or no fertile ground left for extremists to peddle their lies. judging by what i know (which is admittedly very little in this regard), SIS et al appear to be having much better success in infiltrating terrorist cells than their american counterparts, and we all know how difficult this is to do, so we must be doing something right. maybe the fact that the muslim-haters are marginalised, and the kind of vitriol we've been entertained with on this site simply isn't tolerated in public discourse here in the UK might have something to do with it. we are all on the same side, and ought to act like it.

i hope this has been of interest to some of you. please don't reply with lists and diatribes of all the crimes muslims have committed and how all terrorists are muslim etc. etc. it's boring now, and i won't respond to it, though i'll be happy to discuss what i've mentioned that is relevant to the topic and LE in general.

Watchman

08-06-2006, 02:30 AM

Actually, if you knew anything about the Muslim religion, you would know that You cannot be a Muslim unless you believe in Christianity and the bible. You also have to recognize the Torah and Judaism. There are many predominantly Muslim countries that are not Arab countries (Indonesia and Iran for example). Learn about the religion before you tak about it. That being said, the extremist are just that...extreme.

That is just about the most contradictory thing I have ever had the pleasure to read about.

Lets see...we have radical Muslims that want to eliminate Christianity from the face of the earth, yet you say they believe in Christianity and the Bible.
In the Bible it says that even the demons in Hell believe in Christianity and they know the Bible.

You say that the have to recognize the Torah and Judaism yet at this moment the Lebanese are firing whats left of their rockets into Israel. And when Israel mortally kicks their azz, every Muslim country in the world will squall like mashed cats and BEG the United Nations to make them stop. The U.N. will pass many proclamations declaring Israel to be wrong for defending themselves against "extremists" but thats nothing new now is it ?

You talk about Iran...and I can say that after spending a year and a half of my life in Tehran and seeing people burn American flags everyday, buring dummies that were dressed like American soldiers and belitteling America every day for supporting Israel,and lets not forget about the Imams and the Ayatollahs calling for a Jihad against the "great satan" at least once a week.

Im just calling it like I see it brother. Where have most of the wars in this world of ours been in the last few decades ? In case you're too young to know, let me help you. Iran. Iraq. Libya. Lebanon. Rwanda. Somalia.

Not to mention that we are still killing young men from Syria,Arabia,Egypt and every other country that thinks its grand to die for Allah fighting a Jihad against America.

Notice any common links there ?

How about Bosnia and Serbia over in Europe. Might that be about devout Catholics and Muslims ?

You bleeding heart liberal touchyfeely types will be the death of this nation yet...

THX1138

08-06-2006, 05:50 AM

That is just about the most contradictory thing I have ever had the pleasure to read about...

You bleeding heart liberal touchyfeely types will be the death of this nation yet...

I didn't read anything contradictory in what he said... It only contradicts with your views.

Islamists, if you're really interested, believe that war is being waged on them by the west in an alliance between modern day crusaders and zionists. They also believe that they have the right to fight this enemy on every front until they are driven from 'their' lands. Islamists do not base their ideology on the koran, but rather on the writings of people like sayed qutb and ali ala mawdudi, added to which the more recent ideologues produced by the likes of ayman al zawahiri. they have threatened each and every one of us, regardless of race, gender, creed, sexuality. we are all their enemy on the battleground as they perceive it. that is why they are happy to attack people of all backgrounds in the west, as well as muslims of every shade in the ME. they are at war, and anyone who is not actively on their side is a legitimate target and expendable (sound familiar?).

how us touchy-feely bleeding heart liberals are more dangerous than them is still a mystery to me. do words kill you so much? or is it our ideas? the music we listen to? the movies we watch? how dangerous we are! sheesh!

Watchman

08-06-2006, 10:27 AM

THX1138

08-06-2006, 12:19 PM

It just seems to me that the ones that are doing the killing all over the place are angry people that hateful and want to kill anyone around them that dosent share in there state of misery.

Having a couple of ex Muslims for friends that I associate with everyday, I know for a fact that not everything with the Muslim religion is as hunky dory as you make it to seem.

One of them converted to Christianity after he read the Bible. He fled the country because his father and brothers tried to kill him.

His own family. He hasnt seen them in over 20 years.

Now, I've heard and read that Islam is supposed to be one of the most "tolerant" religions out there, but I just dont see it. If it was as tolerant as many would have you beleive, they wouldnt try to kill their own family members for converting to any religion, much less Christianity.

I have no doubt that folks that would kill a brother or a son would have no qualms about killing anyone else that resists their belief structure.

We see it conttinue on everday.

Will it ever cease ?

re: your friend's experience... i don't disagree with you one bit. it is disgusting behaviour. did you know that here in the uk we actively combat these things for our citizens abroad, and those related to them, wherever possible. we send out people (foreign office + embassy officials) to confront the family and escort the individual to safety at the embassy, from where they are brought to the uk. we do the same for those who are taken abroad for forced marriages... again, something that is inexcusable.

so your friend converted to christianity... good for him. his experience of islam obviously was horrendous. it may bother many that he converted, but not me. again, you're looking at the behaviour of people who are conservative to the extreme, and seeing that as the behaviour of an entire nation, which simply isn't true. i never tried to paint a 'rosy picture', but an accurate one of my own experience of the faith, which i came to via christianity.

as far as i'm concerned, zealots are zealots, and i have no time for them... i wish you felt the same, as you seem to take the zealots line as being the prevalent one, when it's simply that they happen to shout the loudest and use the worst possible means to get their point across.

i'm sorry for your friend, and am glad that at least he has found a place that accepts him, just as we would do here in the UK. the koran says there must be no compulsion in religion, and that only God has the power to sever family ties... all too often, these irate and violent family members seem to think that they are God, and know better than their own holy book - the results are devastating. i make no apologies for them. (for your info, my sister married a christian... zealots would say that is punishable by death - i'd tell them to go f*** themselves! they have no authority over me, my beliefs, my behaviour, are that of my family or anybody else for that matter, so they can scream 'till they're blue in the face for all i care.

but as i said before, it doesn't change my own faith, and the fact that it still hurts every time i am treated differently for being a muslim, and every time the name of my religion is dragged through the mud, for whatever reason... i'm sure you feel the same when the name of America is dragged through the mud. i would have expected more compassion from yourself and other posters here, that's all.

after all, the comments that get me aren't about terrorists, extremists or fundamentalists... they are about muslims and islam - and that my friend will always warrant a protest as it is rarely fair/just to speak in such terms. I'm sure not all americans are the same... well snap!

THX1138

08-06-2006, 12:27 PM

Will it ever cease ?

CAN it ever cease? YES

WILL it ever cease? that's up to us all. muslims have got to strive for reform - to get rid of the poisonous religious doctrines that have tainted our way of life (and the lives of countless others, your friend included), and get back to the true source of our faith... that is what will save us, along with the help and support of the rest of the world.

a community that is under attack will get into a bunker mentality - see israel + muslim nations now for proof of this. that is not the environment for reform to flourish... just fear and hatred. not what i want. you?

PS: if you're really interested in what's going on in the middle east, i recommend Al Bab (http://www.al-bab.com/) , arabic for 'the door', a site compiled by english journalist and middle-east correspondent Brian Whitaker... probably the best and most accurate resource i've found on the net. check it out if you have the chance.

Watchman

08-06-2006, 04:32 PM

as far as i'm concerned, zealots are zealots, and i have no time for them... i wish you felt the same, as you seem to take the zealots line as being the prevalent one, when it's simply that they happen to shout the loudest and use the worst possible means to get their point across

Agreed.

Its true that the sqeaking wheel gets the oil, and its also true that the news media will convey the most sensational message that they can find.

Heres the thing...

Lets agree that it IS the most radical factions that are raising hell and killing people. Muslims, much like yourself, dont want anything to do with the radical factions and agreee that they are giving Muslims everywhere a bad name. I know that most, the majority of Muslims are no different than any other people, they just want to be left alone to live as they choose. Its not the quiet ones are part of the problem.

All of a sudden, because of the radical factions and their actions, they get jumped on from other Armys. Real armies, with all the tanks,guns and airpower that they can muster. The radical factions arent equipped to fight a frontal battle with them, so they resort to the only fight that they can, guerrilla warfare. Naturally, its going to get nasty and innocents are going to get killed no matter. That same faction will play to the news media and harp on the fact that innocents are getting killed by the opposing army when in fact it is their own doing.

Now all of the previously quiet ones that just wanted to be left alone to live their own lives as they see fit are whipped up into a frenzy by every religious zealot in the country which then calls a Jihad. Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the DUTY of every faithful Muslim to participate ? To refuse would to be unfaithful to Allah, as he has callled for a "holy war". This is were most people have a problem with Muslims in general, as it is the only religion in the world that advocates killing "infidels" which we all know is anyone that is not muslim.

after all, the comments that get me aren't about terrorists, extremists or fundamentalists... they are about muslims and islam - and that my friend will always warrant a protest as it is rarely fair/just to speak in such terms. I'm sure not all americans are the same... well snap!

The more people find out about what the Muslim religion stands for, the more that will understand that it is truely a threat not only to the United States, but to every country in the world.
That puts you in between a rock and hard place...even in London, where I'm told that Muslims are flooding the country.

THX1138...you seem to be genuinly peacful and hopefull for the future. My religion, which uses the Bible as its guide, tells me that there will NEVER be peace in the Mideast until the Lord himself ends it all. Whether that be tommorow, 10 years from now or 50 years from now matters not. Peace in the Mideast is just not meant to be.

THX1138

08-06-2006, 05:51 PM

Its true that the sqeaking wheel gets the oil, and its also true that the news media will convey the most sensational message that they can find.

exactly

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the DUTY of every faithful Muslim to participate ? To refuse would to be unfaithful to Allah, as he has callled for a "holy war". This is were most people have a problem with Muslims in general, as it is the only religion in the world that advocates killing "infidels" which we all know is anyone that is not muslim.

Let me correct you... you are wrong. This is one of the most common false conceptions about islam, and it is something that has been played on after 9-11 ad infinitum.

the rules of war are laid out in the koran... they are exactly the same ideals held precious by the UN (but rarely acted upon)... that is as follows: if one country attacks another country and is an aggressor, then it is incumbant upon all other countries to unite against the aggressing country until it ceases hostilities and returns what it has taken. a good example is the first Iraq war... iraq invaded a sovereign country, so a coalition fought against iraq until kuwait was liberated. if i remember correctly, the first countries to go to the frontline in that war were egypt and syria... that is the muslim way.

your references re: holy war are a different matter. they refer to the war fought by the first muslims when they had been persecuted and driven from their homes. it does not relate to all "unbelievers", but rather to those who fought against the prophet and his disciples. it does not, in any way, advocate the killing of 'infidels' in general... that is what Osama bi Laden advocates, and as i said before, it is the perpetuation of such evils about our religion that furthers the cause of terrorism. OBL is the one calling for holy war, and trying to dress this up as an attack on our religion. that is how he recruits.

and if i may correct you in another thing... allah is the arabic word for God. if you are speaking arabic to me, then by all means use that word, but if you are speaking english, then the correct name is God... to use Allah in an english context is to imply that this is somehow a different god, which He is not. (arabic speaking christians say allah, but you are english, so better not to confuse things) i know alot of american and british muslims still use the term allah when speaking english... but i never said there were no ignorant muslims. one of the mistakes muslim communities have made in the west is in not communicating with the 'host' community in a language it understands... that simply should not be. if they did, then maybe there wouldn't be such a communication problem, let alone worse.

The more people find out about what the Muslim religion stands for, the more that will understand that it is truely a threat not only to the United States, but to every country in the world.
That puts you in between a rock and hard place...even in London, where I'm told that Muslims are flooding the country.

There you go again... you have shown me that you don't know what my faith 'stands for', and then profess to know how others should respond to it... and who tells you that london is being 'flooded' by muslims? that is the line of the BNP - you know... neo-nazis? you sure like to trust the words of extremists... please tell me this is not true.

THX1138...you seem to be genuinly peacful and hopefull for the future. My religion, which uses the Bible as its guide, tells me that there will NEVER be peace in the Mideast until the Lord himself ends it all. Whether that be tommorow, 10 years from now or 50 years from now matters not. Peace in the Mideast is just not meant to be.

A self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps? having said that, did you know that muslims believe in the second coming of christ? perhaps the difference is that we still believe it is our responsibility to use our God-given free will to effect for change for better in the world. Osama bin Laden might see that as sending young people to their deaths against his enemies, but the rest of us don't... who do you trust more? OBL? squeeky... wheel... oil... oil! ha! :D

honestly, if your reading of the bible means that you're waiting for armageddon, and the only muslims you really listen to are the crazed, blood-thristy and suicidal fire and brimstone types, then i'm sorry, but you are on a collision course of horrendous proportions. and us liberal touchy feely types will be watching from the sidelines when the crunching tackles start flying... regardless of our creed, nationality, race, gender, sexuality - at least we do have hope (us liberals, i mean), and do not want to go all out for a fight when, lets face it, we are ALL sinful, and maybe we should refer to a higher power for our salvation... not to our guns.

THX1138

08-06-2006, 08:38 PM

I thought this might be relevant to the topic:

News Story (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1838844,00.html)

Title: Anti-terror laws alienate Muslims, says top policeman

NB: UK story

BrickCop

08-06-2006, 09:23 PM

While the article brings up important considerations there is also another side to this dilemma.

The muslim community can undoubtedly do more to report the few bad apples in their midst. I have seen nothing to show that there is a vocal and openly public effort in their community to expose the minority of extremists.

I realize that terrorists don't advertise who they are but the fanatical anti -UK/US nuts should at least be brought to the attention of the authorities.

THX1138

08-06-2006, 09:34 PM

The muslim community can undoubtedly do more to report the few bad apples in their midst. I have seen nothing to show that there is a vocal and openly public effort in their community to expose the minority of extremists.

I disagree... the community have been very vocal to the authorities in exposing the extremists... in fact, the July 7 bombers (and the failed 21 July bombers) were complained about by the imams at the mosques they attended... police were called and informed, but alas nothing was done.

Just remember... because you've seen nothing doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

cst.sb

08-07-2006, 12:32 AM

I thought this might be relevant to the topic:

News Story (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1838844,00.html)

Title: Anti-terror laws alienate Muslims, says top policeman

NB: UK story

Great story... extremely sad.. well if things like this (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=32070&name=Lebanese+packaging+found+in+train+bombs%3A+re port) weren't occuring in Europe, maybe racial profiling wouldn't be needed.

THX1138

08-07-2006, 12:38 AM

Great story... extremely sad.. well if things like this (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=32070&name=Lebanese+packaging+found+in+train+bombs%3A+re port) weren't occuring in Europe, maybe racial profiling wouldn't be needed.

just so i know, are you being sarcastic? not sure how to take any of your posts any more... not sure how you would find it sad if you hate muslims.

personally, i don't agree with everything the man says, but it is relevant to the topic, hence the post.

cst.sb

08-07-2006, 12:43 AM

just so i know, are you being sarcastic? not sure how to take any of your posts any more... not sure how you would find it sad if you hate muslims.

personally, i don't agree with everything the man says, but it is relevant to the topic, hence the post.

I do not "HATE" anyone.... and yes there is a hint of sarcasm in my post. I will say this. Having just started to read this thread, you articulate yourself far better, as not being part of the problem of radical Islam.

BTW- I have words like "vast majority" but if my writing style appeared to single you out, then I apologize.

Though, I am still curious as to why you don't want to answer few simple questions, that I'd be more than happy to re-state. I will also continue reading this thread in hopes of finding the answers to my questions.

THX1138

08-07-2006, 01:35 AM

I do not "HATE" anyone.... and yes there is a hint of sarcasm in my post. I will say this. Having just started to read this thread, you articulate yourself far better, as not being part of the problem of radical Islam.

I never alluded that i had anything to do with radical islam... that was you.

BTW- I have words like "vast majority" but if my writing style appeared to single you out, then I apologize.

accepted

Though, I am still curious as to why you don't want to answer few simple questions, that I'd be more than happy to re-state. I will also continue reading this thread in hopes of finding the answers to my questions.

simple answer... the thinker thinks, the prover proves. have you read robert anton wilson? i think you have made up your mind and, whatever i say, you will take from it what you want to affirm your views and ignore the rest. in such a case, why should i waste my time?

FNA209

08-07-2006, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Watchman
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the DUTY of every faithful Muslim to participate ? To refuse would to be unfaithful to Allah, as he has callled for a "holy war". This is were most people have a problem with Muslims in general, as it is the only religion in the world that advocates killing "infidels" which we all know is anyone that is not muslim.

exactly

Let me correct you... you are wrong. This is one of the most common false conceptions about islam, and it is something that has been played on after 9-11 ad infinitum.

your references re: holy war are a different matter. they refer to the war fought by the first muslims when they had been persecuted and driven from their homes. it does not relate to all "unbelievers", but rather to those who fought against the prophet and his disciples. it does not, in any way, advocate the killing of 'infidels' in general...

There you go again... you have shown me that you don't know what my faith 'stands for',

I have spent some time reading about Islam. I read many different sources. I'm becoming aware that Islam in itself may not be all that violent, but given the radical clerics and their interpertation of the religion, the end result is the same.

And, since there all many more radical clerics in Islamic circles than in almost any other organized religion at the present time, there is a problem. Perhaps, one day soon, we'll see the peace-loving Muslims take charge of those clerics and control them. Then, the rest of the world can actually see what the religion is capable of.

Until then, Islam is a threat to most of the world. If the peace-loving Muslims can't police their brethren, we will. It's going to be messy, but....

THX1138

08-07-2006, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Watchman
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the DUTY of every faithful Muslim to participate ? To refuse would to be unfaithful to Allah, as he has callled for a "holy war". This is were most people have a problem with Muslims in general, as it is the only religion in the world that advocates killing "infidels" which we all know is anyone that is not muslim.

I have spent some time reading about Islam. I read many different sources. I'm becoming aware that Islam in itself may not be all that violent, but given the radical clerics and their interpertation of the religion, the end result is the same.

And, since there all many more radical clerics in Islamic circles than in almost any other organized religion at the present time, there is a problem. Perhaps, one day soon, we'll see the peace-loving Muslims take charge of those clerics and control them. Then, the rest of the world can actually see what the religion is capable of.

Until then, Islam is a threat to most of the world. If the peace-loving Muslims can't police their brethren, we will. It's going to be messy, but....

I refer you to my earlier posts... I have studied islam in the UK and the middle east... I have spoken to many clerics... I never once came across a radical cleric. BUT, i've read about them in the newspapers and seen them on the news. I never read about the mainstream clerics or seen them on the news except sparingly eg. during inter-faith dialogue etc... let's face it, it doesn't make for exciting news stories.

"Until then, Islam is a threat to most of the world?" care to repeat this? or do you mean EXTREMISM is a threat to the world. Please clarify.

cst.sb

08-07-2006, 04:03 PM

I refer you to my earlier posts... I have studied islam in the UK and the middle east... I have spoken to many clerics... I never once came across a radical cleric. BUT, i've read about them in the newspapers and seen them on the news. I never read about the mainstream clerics or seen them on the news except sparingly eg. during inter-faith dialogue etc... let's face it, it doesn't make for exciting news stories..

Just curious, if you evern attended the Finsbury Park Mosque and listened to Abu Hamza al-Masri?

THX1138

08-07-2006, 04:06 PM

Just curious, if you evern attended the Finsbury Park Mosque and listened to Abu Hamza al-Masri?

no... like i said, i never came across a single radical cleric. i didn't say they didn't exist. do you know how many mosques/clerics there are? i don't live in finsbury park, so why should i have??

cst.sb

08-07-2006, 04:20 PM

no... like i said, i never came across a single radical cleric. i didn't say they didn't exist. do you know how many mosques/clerics there are? i don't live in finsbury park, so why should i have??

Well, with 1.6 Billion Muslems, then I assume that there are a great many mosques/clerics.

It was a question in response to you saying that you've studied Islam in the UK, so I had assumed that you may have travelled to that mosque.

THX1138

08-07-2006, 04:24 PM

Well, with 1.6 Billion Muslems, then I assume that there are a great many mosques/clerics.

It was a question in response to you saying that you've studied Islam in the UK, so I had assumed that you may have travelled to that mosque.

that's like me saying... oh, you live in canada? you must know my friend Jill, you know, she's an accountant in gibli, manitoba

cst.sb

08-07-2006, 04:42 PM

that's like me saying... oh, you live in canada? you must know my friend Jill, you know, she's an accountant in gibli, manitoba

Hey, you are the one saying you've never met a radical or extremist cleric, and that you've only read about them in the newspaper.

Statements like that minimize, or dismiss the issue of radical Islam. So, I asked you a simple question about where you've studied, as the Finsbury Park Mosque is well known for it's radical views.

Again, you stated that you've studied in the UK and the ME, that leaves a lot open for interpretation, does it not?

THX1138

08-07-2006, 04:45 PM

Hey, you are the one saying you've never met a radical or extremist cleric, and that you've only read about them in the newspaper.

Statements like that minimize, or dismiss the issue of radical Islam. So, I asked you a simple question about where you've studied, as the Finsbury Park Mosque is well known for it's radical views.

Again, you stated that you've studied in the UK and the ME, that leaves a lot open for interpretation, does it not?

Finsbury Park is well know for having had extremist links... an extreme example if you will. that's why it's well known now. i say that i've never come across a radical cleric, so why would you think that i would have gone there???

I don't minimise or dismiss the issue... i speak about it in relative terms... it is the extreme and should be treated as such

FNA209

08-10-2006, 09:23 AM

"Until then, Islam is a threat to most of the world?" care to repeat this? or do you mean EXTREMISM is a threat to the world. Please clarify.

The radical Islamic movement is alive and well. Known by a wide variety of names and including most of the various Islamic denominations, it has one overall main objective- To establish a world-wide Islamic state. That is their goal. They interpret verbiage in the Koran as the holy directive for this goal. I don’t really care what the percentage of radicals to moderates is. The fact that the radicals have established themselves in most countries makes them a world-wide threat.

As long as the moderate Islam people turn a blind eye to the radical movement, it will flourish. The radical groups hide in the moderate communities and they are known by the members of those communities. The average moderate does nothing, and in fact, they aid-and-abet the radicals through funding and their silence. It boils down to this. You rob a bank and I give you a place to hide, I’m just as guilty of the crime as are you.

You quoted a few articles stating some moderates in the UK have given up information about radical groups. That’s good. Once, I see that happening across the globe, I’ll start to believe the whole “Islam is peaceful” stance. Until then, I view the entire religion as a threat. I understand that it boils down to an interpretation of the Koran by these groups, but as long as they continue terrorist activity around the world, they are truly a threat to the world.

If numerous Christians and Jews in the world formed radical splinter groups and decided to use the “eye-for-an-eye” text in the Old Testament as their guiding principle, I’d say Judaism and Christianity were a world-wide threat. Neither religion has many groups that embrace violence. Islam cannot say the same.

Here’s some information gleaned from a Google search in about five minutes:

Australia-

A radical Islamic group linked to the London bombings and outlawed in British universities and across the Middle East has launched an underground recruitment campaign aimed at Muslim youth in Sydney.
The group, Hizb ut-Tahrir describes suicide bombers as martyrs and openly advocates the destruction of Western ideals.

Canada-

No discussion really needed. Based on news reports, it’s obvious there are radical Islamic organizations in Canada. Many are pretty much operating openly.

France (and Algeria)-

The Armed Islamic Group (known by its French acronym, GIA) is a radical offshoot of Algeria’s main Islamist opposition. Since the North African country plunged into a bloody civil war in 1992, the group has been linked to terrorist attacks in Europe and to the massacres of tens of thousands of civilians in Algeria.

French officials have recently expressed growing concern about young French Muslims fighting with Islamist forces in Iraq, where two have been reported to have died carrying out suicide bomb attacks and four more killed in combat.

Germany-

Several groups are well-established in Germany. no less than fourteen extremist Islamic organizations have structures active in Germany. All these groups have two goals in common: to propagate militant Islam in Europe and to fight the governments in their home countries; alternatively--in the case of the Islamic Republic of Iran--they aspire intransigently to suppress all dissident sentiment at home and abroad.

Indonesia-

Indonesian radical groups with links to the Jemaah Islamiah terrorist network have produced VCDs and documents on how Chechen separatists make and use land mines and bombs for their cause.
This latest discovery has sparked fears among regional intelligence agencies that JI militants in Indonesia may pick up the more aggressive tactics used by the Chechen terrorists.

Netherlands-

Among the close to one million Dutch Muslims, about 95 percent are moderates. This implies that there are up to 50,000 potential radicals. They operate as “cells”, aid in terrorist plots, raise funds for the “jihad”.

Pakistan-

Islamic fundamentalists, some of whom are believed to have targeted President Pervez Musharraf in two near-miss December assassination attempts, are given sanctuary in parts of Pakistan and appear to cooperate with al Qaeda.

Turkey-

No less than 10 radical Islamic groups are currently operating in Turkey. Most of them embrace the overthrow of the secular government and the creation of an Islamic state and administration, live in accordance with Islamic rules and struggle to safeguard the Islamic way of life. The second stage is the community (cemaat) and calls for the restructuring of communities in accordance with the requirements of the first stage. The third stage is the struggle (jihad) and calls for the armed struggle to safeguard the Islamic way of life.

United Kingdom-

Osama Bin Laden’s Al-Qaida terrorist organization is known to have established an extensive support network in Great Britain, run through an office in London called the “Advice and Reformation Committee,” founded in July 1994.

Qaradawi heads of the Islamic Council of Europe, established in 1997 and operating from a London Address (16 Grosvenor Crescent), and is involved in the Council For Fatwa and Research, also operating in the U.K. Qaradawi’s deputy, Sheikh Faisal Moulawi, published a new and updated fatwa in support of suicide attacks on 3 October 2001, after the September 11 attacks.

Another Islamist enterprise based in Britain is the Azzam publishing house, which has operated unhindered for several years. Azzam Publications is named after Sheikh Abdallah Azzam, the spiritual mentor of bin Laden during the period when he was active in the Afghan Jihad against the Soviet Union (1979 - 1989). Bin Laden adopted Azzam’s extreme ideology with regard to the Jihad, and extended it to encompass the struggle against the “infidels,” first and foremost the United States. According to the company’s website, its staff is comprised of volunteers who devote their spare time to furthering the cause of the Jihad around the world. Their primary activity is the publication of the works of pro-Jihad Islamic writers, either online or through electronic commerce.

Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri, another outspoken Islamist, heads an organization called The Supporters of Sharia’a, based in North London. Al-Masri is wanted in Yemen for his involvement in dispatching eight British Moslems to perpetrate terror attacks against Western targets in Yemen. After the 11 September attack, the Al-Masri declared that “there are many exultant people now.”

United States-

A lot of what I know about groups in America has been from sources I can’t discuss here. But, it’s safe to say, there are operatives in the US.

This list is not all-inclusive. For instance, I could add the many groups operating in the “-stans” to the list but it will only make it too long to post.

THX1138

08-10-2006, 11:41 AM

The radical Islamic movement is alive and well. Known by a wide variety of names and including most of the various Islamic denominations, it has one overall main objective- To establish a world-wide Islamic state. That is their goal. They interpret verbiage in the Koran as the holy directive for this goal. I don’t really care what the percentage of radicals to moderates is. The fact that the radicals have established themselves in most countries makes them a world-wide threat.

That is very true, and i agree with you. This does not, however, excuse the widespread discrimination, intolerance and downright hostility towards the majority of muslims who have NOTHING to do with the extremists.

As long as the moderate Islam people turn a blind eye to the radical movement, it will flourish. The radical groups hide in the moderate communities and they are known by the members of those communities. The average moderate does nothing, and in fact, they aid-and-abet the radicals through funding and their silence. It boils down to this. You rob a bank and I give you a place to hide, I’m just as guilty of the crime as are you.

Yes, aiding and abetting is a crime, but where do you get the idea that we 'turn a blind eye'? it is nonsense. extremists might try to 'hide' in the community... that is their job as a terrorist operative. but for you to say "The average moderate does nothing, and in fact, they aid-and-abet the radicals through funding and their silence" is plain incitement, and not founded in reality. they are 'known' by members of the community, are they? how? where is your proof? i AM a member of the british muslim community, and we HATE terrorists, so what you are saying, i'm sorry to say, comes across to me as being quite ignorant.

You quoted a few articles stating some moderates in the UK have given up information about radical groups. That’s good. Once, I see that happening across the globe, I’ll start to believe the whole “Islam is peaceful” stance. Until then, I view the entire religion as a threat. I understand that it boils down to an interpretation of the Koran by these groups, but as long as they continue terrorist activity around the world, they are truly a threat to the world.

all true points, though your reaction - to view the entire religion as a threat - is quite irrational, and sadly based on fear. by all means, see the real cause of the threat and face it... fanaticism, zealotry, political violence, perceived injustice, double standards and bigotry. to blame a whole religion is to turn your back on the truth.

If numerous Christians and Jews in the world formed radical splinter groups and decided to use the “eye-for-an-eye” text in the Old Testament as their guiding principle, I’d say Judaism and Christianity were a world-wide threat. Neither religion has many groups that embrace violence. Islam cannot say the same.

i'd agree with that. the point you fail to see, however, is that our armies (US, UK + Israel) are viewed exactly as such by many in the rest of the world. you and i know that we are secular countries, but when people in the middle east or elsewhere see american soldiers kissing their crosses and being blessed by a priest (or kissing a star of david and chanting the torah) before going into a mosque in a foreign land and murdering unarmed muslims, then they see things quite differently.

that is one of many issues that we need to deal with if we are to take the moral high ground and claim that we are neither a threat to the rest of the world, nor that our religion embraces violence, as we are so quick to claim of our 'enemy'... of course it is true of terrorists, but not of islam imo

Here’s some information gleaned from a Google search in about five minutes:

i think there is a real problem that these groups are allowed to operate at all. why are they not banned? if they are banned, why aren't they prohibited from operating in any shape or form? i fear it is not due to people 'turning a blind eye'... if an activity is proscribed by the law, then stopping it from happening is a law and order issue, and that kind of behaviour should be clamped down on significantly.

Today, thank God, a massive plot was disrupted in the UK, possibly saving the lives of thousands of people. this anti-terrorism operation did not happen in an information vacuum - it will have happened with intelligence gathered directly by the UK authorities (SIS, MI5 + SO13), and gathered from the communities in which the suspects will have operated. we are in this together, all of us. we are all at risk from attack. we are all targets of the terrorists, regardless of creed or ethnic make-up. your assertion that the rest of us muslims are turning a blind eye is simply not true, and as i said before, incitement.

i hope you will have seen the press-conference held by John Reid, the british home secretary, today. his is the right example of how to face this struggle, and i would steer well clear of those who wish to perpetuate the idea that we should blame or be suspiscious of an entire religion. after all, if i am a muslim, and muslims are the problem i face, then where does that leave me? should i be suspiscious of myself every time i look in the mirror? i think not. that kind of thinking is irrational and doesn't make me or you or anybody else any safer. not to mention the fact that this is exactly the kind of thinking that al-qaeda wishes you to have.

As for your examples from around the world, some of them are out-of-date or plain hearsay. you should know better than to accept what you find on the internet as gospel (for want of a better word)... though i still agree that there are extremist elements operating around the world, and they are the threat we face. the threat in general terms is not, however, from muslims or islam.

cst.sb

08-10-2006, 02:51 PM

THX,

Ready to Denouce Saudi state sponsored racism yet?

or,

that Israel has a right to exist?

or,

Sharia oppresses women?

And admit there is a bigger problem within Islam than you've first stated?

And oh yes, Found that Buddhist Terrorist yet, and a date for when the country of Palestine existed?

cst.sb

08-10-2006, 04:49 PM

Oh THX, your silence is deafening!!!

Why is it that you always dismiss or minimize aritcles and posts that bring up terrorism. FNA posted a completely factual, of not an understatement of Islamic Extremism and yet you always end up minimize the issue or shift blame - "As for your examples from around the world, some of them are out-of-date or plain hearsay. you should know better than to accept what you find on the internet as gospel (for want of a better word)... though i still agree that there are extremist elements operating around the world, and they are the threat we face. the threat in general terms is not, however, from muslims or islam."

I often wonder why so called "moderate" muslims always seem to do this. I wonder how long it will before the various Muslim Congresses/Counsels will come out with a press release once again accusing the police of making the terrorist arrests out of racism and unfairly targeting Muslims. After all, everyone at the mosque says there were good and pious Muslims.

Mark my words, it will happen within 48 hours? Any other takers?

Watchman

08-11-2006, 04:28 AM

This extremist crap is making it awful difficult to fly anywhere without getting ****ed off at all of the petty BS.

Lets see what we CANT bring on a plane now...

small knives
boxcutters
fingernail files
shaving cream
hair gel
tweezers
toothpaste
hair spray
deodorant
cell phones
laptop computers
IPODS
or anything else that is "suspect"

You get patted down,and you must take of your shoes,and your belt just to make it though a metal detector.

If you happen to have to much cologne or aftershave on and you set the bomb detector sniffer off, its REALLY fun to have them give you a closer look. :eek:

Yes, everyone is suffering for the actions of a few extremists.

You know what though ?
They arent French, or Canadian, or Russian or even Chinese. They are'nt North Korean, Algerian or Spanish. They arent Swiss or Swedish. They arent Christian, or Buddhist or Hare Krishna or Hindu or any other so called religion except one.

These extremists have just one thing in common.
They are Muslim, and they want to die for Allah and they want to do it by killing as many infidels as they can.

Yes, I realize that it is a very small percentage of jerks out there that want to do this. But human nature being as it is, it is making it very difficult to beleive that there is anything GOOD that can come form them...since that s all we ever hear about and its the only group that seems intent on messing up our lives...

Revelation

08-11-2006, 07:25 AM

Watchman

very well said!

THX1138

08-11-2006, 10:03 AM

This extremist crap is making it awful difficult to fly anywhere without getting ****ed off at all of the petty BS....These extremists have just one thing in common.... They are Muslim, and they want to die for Allah and they want to do it by killing as many infidels as they can....Yes, I realize that it is a very small percentage of jerks out there that want to do this. But human nature being as it is, it is making it very difficult to beleive that there is anything GOOD that can come form them...since that s all we ever hear about and its the only group that seems intent on messing up our lives...

yep... i agree with everything you say here, without qualification.

BUT... whilst it might be difficult for someone who is NOT muslim, or who does't KNOW any muslims, to believe that any good can come from them, that is the fault of a media that only gives you a very negative portrayal. my advice is, whilst it might be 'difficult', it is also what sets 'civilised' people apart from the rest - ie. the ability to understand, respect and appreciate the thoughts and beliefs of others, as long as they don't threaten you or your way of life.

as i have said before, this does not apply to the terrorists who plan to bomb the rest of us... the extremists, if you will. NOTHING good will come from them, obviously.

if you can't see that anything 'good' can come from the rest of muslim society, what about the doctors, nurses, police constables/detectives, firemen/women, paramedics, volunteers, business people, intelligence officers, workers of every stripe, public servants of every order... you name it... is it a case of target fixation, where all you can see are the extremists and you forget/ignore everyone else? how else can you justify such a claim? OR, do you simply live in a place where you do not have any reference for muslims other than the TV/papers?

many people on here seem to believe that islam and muslims DO threaten our way of life. this amazes me. yes, i agree that a very few have extreme ideas and intentions, and they ARE a threat, and we are dealing with that. but to say that muslims and islam in general are the threat is something that still has not been justified as anything other than fearmongering, and quite frankly of little use to a society as multi-cultural and inclusive as ours.

if people don't like our way of life, then it is a free country and they are free to leave. for those that stay, i think they can expect some level of respect from their neighbours, colleagues and acquaintances, as we are all in this together against the terrorists. unfortunately, it seems to me that many people on here commenting on muslims have little to no experience of muslims in their personal lives, and that is a shame. (correct me if i'm wrong... the only person to say he knows muslims personally is DOAcop).

Yesterday, we ALL suffered because of the planned terrorist operation... guess what? they arrested 24 people... and yet? once again, 1.8 MILLION british muslims are under the spotlight. not counting the numbers in the states that are possibly suffering the 'double whammy' effect of terrorist attack followed by suspiscion and hostility. time for a new paradigm, methinks.

As John Reid, the home secretary, says today, "This is a common threat to all of us and we should respond with a common purpose and a common solidarity and common cause," he said. "This, I believe, is our most precious asset and we should foster it within all sections of the community."

wise words if you ask me... wouldn't you agree?

cst.sb

08-11-2006, 10:16 AM

THX, you are a racist joke, go away.

cst.sb

08-11-2006, 10:21 AM

Hey THX, why don't you tell all these good people here about Muhammad Ibn 'Abdi'-l-Wahhab and "Wahhabism"???

Or would you like me too???

Watchman

08-11-2006, 02:04 PM

my advice is, whilst it might be 'difficult', it is also what sets 'civilised' people apart from the rest - ie. the ability to understand, respect and appreciate the thoughts and beliefs of others, as long as they don't threaten you or your way of life.

Ten years ago, I didnt have to subject myself to all of the B.S. that it takes to simply get on a plane. It would appear that they ARE threatening my way of life.

if you can't see that anything 'good' can come from the rest of muslim society, what about the doctors, nurses, police constables/detectives, firemen/women, paramedics, volunteers, business people, intelligence officers, workers of every stripe, public servants of every order... you name it... is it a case of target fixation, where all you can see are the extremists and you forget/ignore everyone else? how else can you justify such a claim?

I didnt say that I didnt beleive ANY good could come from a muslim, I said that all of this BS that muslims are doing is making it DIFFICULT to beleive that any good could come from them.

Lets get something straight here. I dont give a rats azz about all of the "good folk" out there. They are not the problem. The problem is the Radicals out there, and they are the ones that are most visible. Another part of the problem that the news media never talks about are the ones that are "good" people that SUPPORT the Radicals, if not by actual actions,then by thought and encouragement.

many people on here seem to believe that islam and muslims DO threaten our way of life. this amazes me. yes, i agree that a very few have extreme ideas and intentions, and they ARE a threat, and we are dealing with that. but to say that muslims and islam in general are the threat is something that still has not been justified as anything other than fearmongering, and quite frankly of little use to a society as multi-cultural and inclusive as ours.

It amazes you ? Get a life dude. When we wake up and find out that one of our citys is gone because some ****ed of Muslim with a nuke wanted to make a statement,are you goning to just explain it away too?

You are in London right? Since you are resident of Great Britian how can you presume to even have a clue about what we here in the United States think?
It would seem to me that you get your information from the news media that you claim is into fearmongering and brainswashing. Dont claim to know the minds of Americans, they are VASTLY different that those of the Brits, where even they have ruled self defense as being illegal. Where I am at, the average homeowner owns 8.5 guns. Those same guns would make the average Brit **** all over themselves..and the the majority of Britians cops arent even armed. Might that be the reason that Britian is being flooded with muslims as of late ?

As John Reid, the home secretary, says today, "This is a common threat to all of us and we should respond with a common purpose and a common solidarity and common cause," he said. "This, I believe, is our most precious asset and we should foster it within all sections of the community."

A common theat. You've got that right. This crap keeps up and it'll be an all out war and the only distinction will be if you are Christian or a Muslim. Those that claim to be neither will be little more than cannon fodder caught in the crossfire.

Its on the horizon.

THX1138

08-11-2006, 02:55 PM

Ten years ago, I didnt have to subject myself to all of the B.S. that it takes to simply get on a plane. It would appear that they ARE threatening my way of life.

yep, THEY being the EXTREMISTS, not muslims and islam in general... i don't see why that is so hard to comprehend or accept.

I didnt say that I didnt beleive ANY good could come from a muslim, I said that all of this BS that muslims are doing is making it DIFFICULT to beleive that any good could come from them.

Why? I would credit you with more sense than that.

Lets get something straight here. I dont give a rats azz about all of the "good folk" out there. They are not the problem. The problem is the Radicals out there, and they are the ones that are most visible. Another part of the problem that the news media never talks about are the ones that are "good" people that SUPPORT the Radicals, if not by actual actions,then by thought and encouragement.

I agree, though I actually do care about good folk, whatever their religion.

It amazes you ? Get a life dude. When we wake up and find out that one of our citys is gone because some ****ed of Muslim with a nuke wanted to make a statement,are you goning to just explain it away too?

No... i'd lay blame where it's due, not on innocent people.

You are in London right? Since you are resident of Great Britian how can you presume to even have a clue about what we here in the United States think?

I'm trying to understand. If I knew, then i wouldn't be wasting my time here... i'm here to learn, aren't you?

It would seem to me that you get your information from the news media that you claim is into fearmongering and brainswashing. Dont claim to know the minds of Americans, they are VASTLY different that those of the Brits, where even they have ruled self defense as being illegal. Where I am at, the average homeowner owns 8.5 guns. Those same guns would make the average Brit **** all over themselves..and the the majority of Britians cops arent even armed. Might that be the reason that Britian is being flooded with muslims as of late ?

I don't claim to know, but i am trying to understand based on what is being said to me. The responses i have had on here are fairly frightening. people have made comments that are bigoted and even advocating ethnic cleansing, and yet not a single north american voice was raised against such views when they came up. you are right, we are different in the UK. my fellow brits have made comments against the hatred vented on here, and that is reassuring to me. as for my american friends who have nothing to do with these forums, they are far more open minded and tolerant than you might have me believe is the mind of america.

as for Britain being 'flooded' by muslims, it might have less to do with our police being relatively unarmed, and more to do with lax immigration laws, economic migration and asylum seeking.

A common theat. You've got that right. This crap keeps up and it'll be an all out war and the only distinction will be if you are Christian or a Muslim. Those that claim to be neither will be little more than cannon fodder caught in the crossfire.

Its on the horizon.

Well, you obviously have no idea the context of what John Reid said. He was talking about a common threat AGAINST BRITISH CITIZENS OF ALL CREEDS FROM EXTREMISTS. the division between Christians and Muslims might be one you wish to see, but it is one that we are against in the UK, and quite right too.

Watchman

08-11-2006, 08:36 PM

Well, you obviously have no idea the context of what John Reid said. He was talking about a common threat AGAINST BRITISH CITIZENS OF ALL CREEDS FROM EXTREMISTS. the division between Christians and Muslims might be one you wish to see, but it is one that we are against in the UK, and quite right too.

To be honest with you, I really could care less what a Brit on the other side of the world has to say about much of anything.

I'll agree with him though. I do beleive that the Brits are under as much of a threat as we are.Would that be because they speak english or perhaps because they are predominatley considered to be "Christian" ?

Like it or not, the divison between Christians and Muslims is there and it is real. Like it or not, the radical Muslims will NOT leave the Christians alone, and as long as there are any breathing, the radical muslims will do everything within their power to eliminate them.

Do I wish it to be so ? Absolutley not. I am I going to stick my head in the sand and pretend it dosent exist because the majority of them have no involvment in the violence ? No.

Now,name just one radical faction of ANY religion that has spread as much hate,discontent and violence as the mulsims have on a worldwide scale that has affected so many people.

Look at it now. Some radicals got busted in the UK for a plot to blow up airliners and now I've got to report two hours ahead of time just so I can be sufficently hasseled and cleared to make a flight in my own country. :(

cst.sb

08-11-2006, 09:13 PM

Oh-oh, 40 more arrests related to the latest UK bomb plot were made in Italy today.

And the reaction from the UK Muslim community, "We're afraid this will bring about more negative feelings about Muslims." No condemnation, no "We're doing everything in our power to assist the authorities", just more rhetoric about the government and being more transparent with their investigations.

I know, I know, THX, I'll say it before you do. It's just a small part of the entire 1.8 billion Muslims that roam the world spreading the word of peace and tolerance. I wonder though when the last time 40 of the 2.2 billion Christians were apprehended in a terrorist plot.

Well, it took less then 48 hours for my prediction to come true.

THX1138

08-11-2006, 11:41 PM

To be honest with you, I really could care less what a Brit on the other side of the world has to say about much of anything.

I'll agree with him though. I do beleive that the Brits are under as much of a threat as we are.Would that be because they speak english or perhaps because they are predominatley considered to be "Christian" ?

I don't think you understood... he was saying that all britons had common cause against a common enemy. ie. british muslims, christians, jews, you name it - everyone has a shared interest in fighting terrorism, and terrorism is a threat to us all.

Can someone help me out here... i'm sure i'm speaking the same language as you, Watchman, but you're not understanding what i'm saying, or for that matter, John Reid. You might not care what a british guy on the other side of the world has to say, but then this guy happens to run the Home Office, which the british police services and domestic intelligence services are accountable to... you know, the same people that just saved possibly thousands of american lives.

Like it or not, the divison between Christians and Muslims is there and it is real. Like it or not, the radical Muslims will NOT leave the Christians alone, and as long as there are any breathing, the radical muslims will do everything within their power to eliminate them.

i kind of agree with you. the problem is that the majority of terrorist / suicide attacks are fuelled, not by sheer religiosity and hatred, but rather by "specific secular and strategic goals." (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1838214,00.html) It does not have to be some kind of perpetual conflict without end.

Do I wish it to be so ? Absolutley not. I am I going to stick my head in the sand and pretend it dosent exist because the majority of them have no involvment in the violence ? No.

I never said that extremists don't exist, nor that they do not pose any threat. Read every single one of my posts on this forum and you'll see that. what i don't condone, however, is the blaming of islam (which happens to be my religion) for the evils that these people do. what they do has no excuse and no justification, and the vast majority of muslims are sick and tired of being both on the receiving end of horrific terrorist attacks, and then being blamed and suspected unjustly for being the cause of the problem, when they clearly are not.

Now,name just one radical faction of ANY religion that has spread as much hate,discontent and violence as the mulsims have on a worldwide scale that has affected so many people.

I would say that al-qaeda are by far the most 'successful' group operating in the world today in doing what you have mentioned. They do not represent muslims. they represent themselves. didn't you know that they have deemed it 'halal' (lawful by divine order) to kill 'muslims' that don't follow their doctrine, and thus get in the way of their plans? that includes me and all the other muslims around the world that you are so suspiscious of.

Look at it now. Some radicals got busted in the UK for a plot to blow up airliners and now I've got to report two hours ahead of time just so I can be sufficently hasseled and cleared to make a flight in my own country. :(

Well, i'm sorry you're hassled, but this is a war and i think you can be man enough to take it. thousands of lives were saved, and people moan about the inconvenience. if you want to be angry, be angry at the people we're fighting in this war, THE TERRORISTS, and please understand that by using terms like 'the muslims' when you are talking about our enemy, you are alienating many of the very people who are fighting to keep us safe!

After all, I am a muslim and I want terrorism defeated as much as you do. I am not your enemy, so why keep making out that I am?

it reminds me of when i was in egypt, and i was having a conversation with a friend about what was going on in palestine at the time... it amazed me that he kept on talking about the jews... i berated him as i thought he was being anti-semetic, but i then found out that he wasn't anti-semetic at all... the problem was that in their culture (and with the added effects of bad english), when in fact he meant to complain about the actions of the israeli government, he was inadvertently talking about 'the jews'. when i explained to him all the different words and gave him the chance to explain to me in english what his real views were, his arguments made complete sense.

what i don't understand with you, Watchman, is that you live in a 1st world country and your mother tongue is english. i'm sure you're well educated. this makes it difficult for me to explain away your choice of words due to a lack of vocabulary. i really do try to give people the benefit of the doubt where i can, and i try to understand other people's point of view, and that's why i'm glad i'm having this conversation with you. i would hate to think, however, that you have made up your mind and gone down the path of bigotry that others have chosen.

you say you don't wish for there to be a division between christians and muslims, and yet it appears that you may have responded to the acts of terrorism in exactly the way Osama bin Laden wants you to... he's inciting us all. I can tell you that i, for one, will NEVER respond to such incitement. i am proud to be a westerner. i am proud to live in a democracy and i am proud to be a muslim. there is no dichotomy in it for me. the dichotomy is something that the terrorists want to spread, because that is their warped world view.

i think that you, in your heart of hearts have the best of intentions... i've never met an american who hasn't. i urge you not to let the terrorists dictate your world view. don't let them dictate your opinions. don't let them dictate your actions. if you are willing to see the world through the viewpoint of muslims being characterised by terrorism, then you have done exactly what bin Laden wants you to, i hope to God that never happens.

THX1138

08-12-2006, 12:16 AM

I do beleive that the Brits are under as much of a threat as we are.Would that be because they speak english or perhaps because they are predominatley considered to be "Christian" ?

my apologies... i caught this one the wrong way. (it's late and i'm tired :( )

i think it has little to do with the fact that britain is a predominantly christian country, and more to do with our involvement in afghanistan and iraq and our support for israel and dictatorships across the middle east.

cst.sb

08-12-2006, 10:23 AM

British Muslims accuse Blair of fuelling extremism
Last Updated Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:19:42 EDT
CBC News

The British government's foreign policy in Iraq and Israel has inflamed extremists, jeopardizing the safety of its citizens at home and abroad, prominent Muslims in Britain said Saturday.

The accusations came in an open letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair, published in several of the country's newspapers. It was signed by four Muslim MPs and 38 organizations, including the Muslim Council of Britain and the Muslim Association of Britain.

"As British Muslims we urge you to do more to fight against all those who target civilians with violence, whenever and wherever that happens," the letter says. "It is our view that current British government policy risks putting civilians at increased risk both in the U.K. and abroad.

"The debacle of Iraq and the failure to do more to secure an immediate end to the attacks on civilians in the Middle East not only increases the risk to ordinary people in that region, it is also ammunition to extremists who threaten us all."

British authorities Thursday detailed an alleged plot involving as many as 10 commercial flights and liquid explosives. The Bank of England froze the assets of 19 suspects, with police holding them and four others for questioning. Most of the suspects were reported to be British-born Muslims.

The alleged plot was condemned by the signatories of the open letter.

Security jeopardized

Blair's reluctance to criticize Israel for attacks that have killed Lebanese civilians in the last month will only further jeopardize Britain's security, Labour MP Sadiq Khan told the Guardian newspaper.

"We simply cannot ignore the fact that our country's foreign policy is being used by charismatic [figures] to tell British Muslims that their country hates them," Khan said.

"Current policy on the Middle East is seen by almost everyone I speak to as unfair and unjust. Such a sense of injustice plays into the hands of extremists."

A spokesperson for the government dismissed the charges.

"Al-Qaeda starting killing innocent civilians in the '90s," the spokesperson told the Guardian. "It killed Muslim civilians even before 9/11, and the attacks on New York and Washington killed over 3,000 people before Iraq. To imply al-Qaeda is driven by an honest disagreement over foreign policy is a mistake."

Ya, big surpise here!! It's the British Government's fault!!! We (muslims) are victims too, so feel bad for us. After all IT's THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT for not condemming things like, Israel for defending themselves against Muslim terrorists. I mean, hell, Israel only belonged to the Jews for 1800 years before Mo showed up, why should they have a right to exist. And how dare they attack the Party of God while they are using innocent civilians as human shields to launch missiles in to CIVILIAN populated areas of Israel.

Sounds like the British Muslim MP can't put aside his racism aside and make a non-biased comment.

cst.sb

08-12-2006, 10:31 AM

One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
By Anthony King

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming.

The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts.

The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events.

Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are.

YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders.

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous".

Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive.

The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old.

However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere.

The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel "very loyal" (46 per cent) or "fairly loyal" (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

If these findings are accurate, and they probably are, well over 100,000 British Muslims feel no loyalty whatsoever towards this country.

Fully Story (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/23/ixnewstop.html)

So when did hundreds of thousands become a "few"?

BSRanch

08-12-2006, 11:29 AM

THX1138

08-12-2006, 12:44 PM

It depends on what you are investigating whether the Middle Eastern Profiling will work or not. The last Cell that was Broken up in the United States that were planning an attack on the Sears Tower in Chicago, they were Black, Middle Eastern and some White, a Majority of them were American Citizens, yet there activity is what gave them away!! So it was not so much their Race, but their Religious Beliefs, and their Activities that went along with those beliefs that caused the concern by the CIA/FBI!!

BSR

Yeah, i would say that this is a very reasonable answer to the problem... terrorist cells have clearly defined methods of operating, and can be picked up by identifying their behaviour through intelligence and monitoring.

That is what sets them apart from the rest of muslims, and that is what we need to constantly identify if we are to win.

The problem is that Al-Qaeda has been known to constantly innovate in terms of it's methods for evading detection and bypassing security... eg. it's planned use of liquid explosives in this week's planned attacks, to bypass airport security.

We need to find a systematic way of keeping ahead of the terrorists, and keeping on top of their disemmination of information, as well as having more infiltration into the organisation. as far as i am aware, these two last points (info from the internet and informants), as well as deep surveillance, played a key role in the anti-terrorist operation, and kept us one step ahead of the game.

cst.sb

08-13-2006, 09:40 PM

At least a million Saudi Children have been taught this hate over the last few decades.

Translations from Saudi Schoolbooks(18)

▪ Jihad: From an early age, schoolchildren are taught about Jihad for the Sake of Allah (Al-Jihad fi sabil Allah). In a textbook for 8th grade students, a Hadith is introduced about a companion of the Prophet Muhammad who asked the Prophet: "What labor is most favored by Allah? He [the Prophet] answered: Prayers on time; he then asked: what next? The Prophet answered: love thy parents. He then asked: what else: The Prophet answered: Jihad for the sake of Allah." The textbook interprets the conversation between the Prophet and his companion as follows: the most important activity is Jihad for the sake of Allah and the convocation of Allah's religion on this earth.(19)

In a textbook titled "Pictures from the Lives of the Companions," the students are told that following the battle of Badr (the first victory of Muslims over the disbelievers) a new chapter in the Koran had descended on the Prophet which raised, in the eyes of Allah, the status of the mujahid (Jihad warrior) and his preference over those who sit still. The chapter challenges the mujahid to Jihad, and discourages those who sit still.(20)

▪ Jews and Christians - Cursed by Allah and Turned into Apes and Pigs: A textbook for 8th grade students explains why Jews and Christians were cursed by Allah and turned into apes and pigs. Quoting Surat Al-Maida, Verse 60, the lesson explains that Jews and Christians have sinned by accepting polytheism and therefore incurred Allah's wrath. To punish them, Allah has turned them into apes and pigs.(21)

▪ A schoolbook for the 9th grade on Hadith introduces a famous narration known by the name, "The Promise of the Stone and the Tree." It tells a story about Abu Hurayra, one of the Prophet's companions who quoted the Prophet as saying: "The hour [the Day of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will [then] hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim: 'O Muslim, O slave of Allah! there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!' - except for the gharqad tree, for it is one of the trees of the Jews."(22)

The Hadith is accompanied by a number of statements: 1. "It is Allah's wisdom that the struggle between Muslims and Jews shall continue until the Day of Judgment." 2. "The Hadith brings forth the glad tidings about the ultimate victory, with Allah's help, of Muslims over Jews." 3. "The Jews and the Christians are the enemies of the believers. They will not be favorably disposed toward Muslims and it is necessary to be cautious [in dealing with them]."

The book asks questions for class discussion:

1. "Who will be victorious in the Day of Judgment?"
2. "With what types of weapons should Muslims arm themselves against the Jews?"
3. "Name four factors leading to the victory of Muslims over their enemies."(23)

Source (http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc3516.php)

THX1138

08-13-2006, 10:10 PM

Never take life for granted! You never know when a Mazda MPV, Mini Van, will make a left turn in front of you and end it all!

LOL... and volvo drivers or any kind of white van!!! I hope they give you decent high-vis uniforms to go with your smart black suits in California... the last guy that knocked me off my bike claimed he "didn't see me"... and he did a turn right in front of me... not nice.

lawhog

08-13-2006, 11:03 PM

Yesterday, we ALL suffered because of the planned terrorist operation... guess what? they arrested 24 people... and yet? once again, 1.8 MILLION british muslims are under the spotlight. not counting the numbers in the states that are possibly suffering the 'double whammy' effect of terrorist attack followed by suspiscion and hostility. time for a new paradigm, methinks.
1.8 MILLION british muslims are under the spotlight because they can not, or more likely will not, do what they can to destroy the extrmemists and their movement. They funnel monies to the terrorist groups, they march in protest of actual attempts to locate the terrorists who are too cowardly to come forward, they scream racism everytime a white authority looks at them the wrong way, they almost never speak out against the Jihad, they riot in some places, they make statements that they support what the terrorists are doing, and oh yea;

MUSLIMS PLOT TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE TRAPPED ON AIRPLANES, THEY WALK INTO CROUDED MARKETS AND BLOW THEMSELVES AND THOSE AROUND THEM UP, THEY RUN AIRPLANES INTO BUILDINGS, THEY BLOW UP AIRLINERS OVER ENGLAND, THEY KILL OTHER MUSLIMS WITHOUT SO MUCH AS AN AFTER THOUGHT, THEY SNEAK EXPLSIVES ONTO AIRPLANES IN THEIR SHOES AND TRY TO LIGHT THEM ON FIRE, THEY HYJACK AIRPLANES, THEY LAUNCH MORE THAN 700 MISSLES INTO FREE COUNTRIES FOR NO APPARENT REASON, THEY KIDNAP AND BEHEAD INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN IRAQ TO TRYING TO HELP THEM, THEY DRIVE VANS UNDER BUILDINGS AND DETONATE THEM WITH THE HOPES OF DESTROYING THE BUILDINGS AND KILL ALL WHO ARE INSIDE and hundreds upon hundreds of other horrific and dastardly things.

If you want to take the spotlight off the Muslims around the world who may actually believe in peace, start and anti-terror foundation where people donate time and money to the fight. Write anti fundamentalist articles in your British newspapers. Take the kill all infadels out of your Kuran. (I hope I spelled that properly) Your people, or more so you brothers in religion are the reason Arabs everywhere are under a now much bigger microscope. Do something to assist the fight against these evil bastards, and we will be a little more likely to look elsewhere. Until then, get used to it. How are we to tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys when the terrorists hide amongst you and you do not point them out? A terrorist is someone who is too cowardly to outwardly say who they are, attack civilians and non military targets without warning or provocation.

THX1138

08-14-2006, 10:33 AM

1.8 MILLION british muslims are under the spotlight because they can not, or more likely will not, do what they can to destroy the extrmemists and their movement........

Hi lawdog,

you make alot of very strong accusations in your post. seeing as i am one of the people you are accusing, i would like to see your proof. how can you say what you say? where is the justification? if anyone is guilty of the things you have mentioned, then they should be locked up, so where is your proof? if you have none, then you are guilty of defamation and incitement. For every single person who condemns terrorist acts, who works fully with the police service, or in fact WITHIN the police service (or intelligence services for that matter), who does not support terrorist groups materially or otherwise, you have wronged them by making such views in public. would you stand by your views in a court of law?

If you want to take the spotlight off the Muslims around the world who may actually believe in peace, start and anti-terror foundation where people donate time and money to the fight. Write anti fundamentalist articles in your British newspapers. Take the kill all infadels out of your Kuran. (I hope I spelled that properly)......

ok, first off, you spelled it wrong, and i've read the koran in arabic and with 'tafsir', which is the historical account of the circumstances of revelation, and it says no such thing. the only people who claim this are the terrorists themselves (to excuse their acts to the ignorant whom they wish to recruit), and the islamophobes (to defame muslims with knowledge they have gained from non-muslims or extremists)... again, your source, please.

as for starting an anti-terror organisation, we already have one - it's called the British Government... it, in turn has many - SO13, SIS, MI5, Scotland Yard to name a few... last time I looked, we live in a democracy... that's how things work in a democracy. and if you can't find anti-fundamentalist articles in our papers, then i wonder what you are reading as they can be found every day.

As for people crying foul of racist attitudes or inaccurate intelligence and bad raids, that is a fundamental right of each citizen who believes that their government is not affording them the protection they deserve. it's nothing to do with black or white. it is to do with freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. these are the freedoms we fight for, and the freedoms we must defend.

cst.sb

08-14-2006, 03:40 PM

As for people crying foul of racist attitudes or inaccurate intelligence and bad raids, that is a fundamental right of each citizen who believes that their government is not affording them the protection they deserve. it's nothing to do with black or white. it is to do with freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. these are the freedoms we fight for, and the freedoms we must defend.

As for bad raids and inteliigence, I'd ask you to name three, but you won't answer so what's the point.

lawhog

08-19-2006, 07:29 PM

Hi lawdog,

you make alot of very strong accusations in your post. seeing as i am one of the people you are accusing, i would like to see your proof. how can you say what you say? where is the justification? if anyone is guilty of the things you have mentioned, then they should be locked up, so where is your proof? if you have none, then you are guilty of defamation and incitement. For every single person who condemns terrorist acts, who works fully with the police service, or in fact WITHIN the police service (or intelligence services for that matter), who does not support terrorist groups materially or otherwise, you have wronged them by making such views in public. would you stand by your views in a court of law?
I do make a lot of strong accusations. The reason is they are not far from the truth. You would like to see proof? Watch any tape of the bus bombings in England. Watch any tape of the Sept. 11th strikes against America. Watch any newsbroadcast out of Iraq, Lebanon, Isreal. Watch the tapes from the WTC bombing in 95 I think it was. Defamation and Incitement? Incitement of what? Defamation must be of a single person, so whom exactly have I defamed? And yes, I would be more than happy to defend my statements in a court. I know that I am lumping every person into that catagory, however, until those who are earnestly innocent take public action against terror everywhere by denouncing it they are going to have to be lumped in the same group. Why you ask, because terrorists are cowards who hide among you. And you allow it. (that assumes you are an Arab-Muslim in England)

ok, first off, you spelled it wrong, and i've read the koran in arabic and with 'tafsir', which is the historical account of the circumstances of revelation, and it says no such thing. the only people who claim this are the terrorists themselves (to excuse their acts to the ignorant whom they wish to recruit), and the islamophobes (to defame muslims with knowledge they have gained from non-muslims or extremists)... again, your source, please.
I realize that I paraphrased, but you deny that the book says that those who will not convert must be killed as infadels?? If you do, apparently you skipped over that little part.

as for starting an anti-terror organisation, we already have one - it's called the British Government... it, in turn has many - SO13, SIS, MI5, Scotland Yard to name a few... last time I looked, we live in a democracy... that's how things work in a democracy. and if you can't find anti-fundamentalist articles in our papers, then i wonder what you are reading as they can be found every day.
To clarify, I merely saying that you start an anti-terrorism league where you denounce their activities publicly. I do not believe that any such group has been started either here, or in England. Of course, I could be wrong on that! Last time I looked, England was not a democracy, but rather a socialist society. Yes, it does resemble a democracy, yet is not one.

As for people crying foul of racist attitudes or inaccurate intelligence and bad raids, that is a fundamental right of each citizen who believes that their government is not affording them the protection they deserve. it's nothing to do with black or white. it is to do with freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. these are the freedoms we fight for, and the freedoms we must defend.
No, it is a ploy by the left, and shared as a tactic by the Arabs residing in England (and America) who wish shield terror cells. Yes, there are a few cases of officers looking at race as a factor in who the target. But right now we are in a fight against a terrorist organization bent on our utter and complete destruction. And guess what, they are not made up of whites, jews, Asians (as far as I know) they are made up almost, if not entirely of Arabs. So, unless, as I previously said, you take some extraordinary efforts to publicly combat terrorism through word and deeds you can continue to expect to receive the evil eye from the rest of us. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

THX1138

08-20-2006, 12:13 PM

Why you ask, because terrorists are cowards who hide among you. And you allow it.

If you imply that I, as a muslim in England (of north african origin, not exactly an arab, but what difference does it make to you?), am 'shielding' terrorists, and not 'actively combating them', just because of my religion, then you have defamed me and all those who are like me based on your sheer and utter ignorance. You are wrong in my case, and wrong in MILLIONS of other cases... you think we know who these guys are and are protecting them??? we 'allow it? you disgust me!

I do not defend terrorism; i condemn it in the strongest terms. I do, however, defend myself against the kind of racist/islamaphobic (take your pick based on your own semantic perceptions) bile that is being posted on the internet. You say 'incitement to what?' I say it is incitement to religious hatred, and that is a crime in my country, which is a democracy even if you don't think so, albeit a constitutional monarchy and not a republic.

but you deny that the book says that those who will not convert must be killed as infadels??

I absolutely deny this, as it is not in the holy book. give me a reference as to where it 'exists' if you still believe this to be true, and i'll check it.

To clarify, I merely saying that you start an anti-terrorism league where you denounce their activities publicly. I do not believe that any such group has been started either here, or in England. Of course, I could be wrong on that!

duh! you're very wrong.

So, unless, as I previously said, you take some extraordinary efforts to publicly combat terrorism through word and deeds you can continue to expect to receive the evil eye from the rest of us. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

again... duh! I do as much as the next man, but it doesn't matter to you. You have decided you have the right to give us the 'evil eye', based on nothing but conjecture... your choice. you don't know me or my beliefs, yet you insult me and people like me. it says alot about you as a human being, nothing about me. shame on you.

cst.sb

08-20-2006, 01:01 PM

I absolutely deny this, as it is not in the holy book. give me a reference as to where it 'exists' if you still believe this to be true, and i'll check it..

Qu'ran

009.005

YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Convert or Dhimmitude, both seem rather bleak.

It's even worse if you are a woman and victim of rape.

004.015

YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

Sucks to be a women in the world of Islam, where rape victims are sentenced to death or prison (or just commit suicide) because they lacked four witnesses.

Ah Islam, it's such a beautiful regilion. It just fills my heart with hope.

lawhog

08-20-2006, 06:15 PM

If you imply that I, as a muslim in England (of north african origin, not exactly an arab, but what difference does it make to you?), am 'shielding' terrorists, and not 'actively combating them', just because of my religion, then you have defamed me and all those who are like me based on your sheer and utter ignorance. You are wrong in my case, and wrong in MILLIONS of other cases... you think we know who these guys are and are protecting them??? we 'allow it? you disgust me!
I see that legitimate conversation is unlikely as some here, they shall remain nameless and I wish not to attack them personally, are "open minded" and "willing to listen" to those around them. Just to clarify, again, one cannot defame an entire religion and the millions who may be members. But a very nice try, indeed.

I do not defend terrorism; i condemn it in the strongest terms. I do, however, defend myself against the kind of racist/islamaphobic (take your pick based on your own semantic perceptions) bile that is being posted on the internet. You say 'incitement to what?' I say it is incitement to religious hatred, and that is a crime in my country, which is a democracy even if you don't think so, albeit a constitutional monarchy and not a republic.
If you do in fact condemn terrorism, then I apologize to you. However, I have not seen one statement actually condeming said activity, only the statement that you do condemn. Where is the implyed condemnation? In America, where I am now, I am free to make statements about my feelings and thoughts about anything. With the sole exception being the President of the United States. He is off limits, because you get guys in black suits with no sense of humor showing up at your house! The reason I am allowed to make said statements is that I am in a free country. Any country which would serve to limit free speech is hardly a democracy, but rather something much different. Or in Englands' case a Socialist country. One might try reading a book sometime or doing research (that is where one goes and actually finds out the answers instead of just going by what one thinks one knows) instead of just spouting off because one did not like what is said.

I absolutely deny this, as it is not in the holy book. give me a reference as to where it 'exists' if you still believe this to be true, and i'll check it.
I believe that you can rely on the good Constables quotes from above. Of course, duh, I am wrong! It does not say to kill all infadels, of course, I am too ignorant to know what it might or might not say.

duh! you're very wrong.
Nice retort. I noticed that there is a personal attack, however, there is nothing else. Was there a point to that?

again... duh! I do as much as the next man, but it doesn't matter to you. You have decided you have the right to give us the 'evil eye', based on nothing but conjecture... your choice. you don't know me or my beliefs, yet you insult me and people like me. it says alot about you as a human being, nothing about me. shame on you.
It is my choice, because as I have pointed out, I live in a free country and am allowed to make and even express that choice if I wish. It is my constitutional right as a citizen of a Democracy and a free country. Shame on me? How about shame on the people who support terrorism by being merely standing by who also happen to be Muslim. Where are the outcries from the Islamic community in written form? Where are the letters to the editor of the newspapers from Muslims denouncing these horrific activities? It is their responsibility to speak out agains sensless violence. I do not hate Muslims because they are Muslim. I know many who are likely good people, after all I live near one of the largest concentrations of Muslims in America. However, I do not trust them because of the actions of the few. I say shame on those few for killing thousands upon thousands of innocents, and requiring me to be untrusting.

THX1138

08-20-2006, 06:38 PM

ok. you have basically said that muslims harbour terrorists. you say that islam condones murder for apostasy. you say that muslims don't speak out against terrorism. in fact, you say, they support terrorists. and on and on and on.

i am a muslim, and all that you have said above, for all but the smallest minority of people, is completely untrue. plain and simple.

i have cst.sb on ignore as he appears to be only interested in smearing islam and muslims, so i don't really care what he/she says. if you can support your arguments then feel free - after all, you seem so happy with your (exclusive?) right to free speech... then show me that what you say is reasonable to someone who happens to be a member of the community whom you are attacking, and who knows your accusations to be both inflamatory and untrue.

I have been deeply offended by so many of the comments that have been made to me on this forum. i have in fact made a complaint to the people who run the website. I have seen racial and religious hatred on these pages, and have been harassed again and again with anti-muslim nonsense. if you have read all of my posts in this forum, you would know that i hate terrorism. you would also know that i was very close to the bus bombing last july, and so the issue of terrorism is a very sensitive one for me, as i could have died that day. even so, i would gladly put my life on the line to protect the citizens of London from attack in the future. for people like you to come on here and vent your hatred and unfounded suspiscion on me, whom you don't know, is sickening. and yes, i believe you should be ashamed of yourself. for someone from a civilised country to think it is justified to give grief to someone whom they know to be innocent for the crimes of others is both selfish and in contradiction to the very values people in law enforcement should have - namely respect for the law.

if you think that what i have said to you is a personal attack, and that what you have said to me is not deeply personally offensive, then i suggest you re-read what you have said to me.

cst.sb

08-20-2006, 07:26 PM

Wow, I guess when you can't argue or defend your actions, you just add the person to your ignore list. That way you don't have to answer the hard questions.

What a whimp.

lawhog

08-20-2006, 10:09 PM

ok. you have basically said that muslims harbour terrorists. you say that islam condones murder for apostasy. you say that muslims don't speak out against terrorism. in fact, you say, they support terrorists. and on and on and on.
I want to make certain I understand what you are saying here, are you saying that Muslims do not support terrorism? Anywhere? I do say they harbor terrorism and terrorists. It has been proven here in the US that we have no less than 18 Hezbolla cells. There are probably at LEAST that many Al-Quaida cells at the same time. And that's just here. If a person were truely set against terror and those who wish to perpetrate it upon us they would go out of their way to identify and turn them in. Those who are in agreement do not, and they do it on purpose.

i am a muslim, and all that you have said above, for all but the smallest minority of people, is completely untrue. plain and simple.
This is a fair statement, one I can not, however, agree with simply because terrorists are cowards and refuse to show themselves. Instead they hide in the shadows and attack those who are unarmed, unexpecting, and innocent. If I do not know who they are, and there are hundreds if not thousands who are just waiting, then all are suspect. Simple police investigations 101 whereby everyone is a suspect until proven otherwise. If in fact you are right about the smallest minority of your religion (and I suspect you are) then why do not more of you go public condeming these groups? I know that some it is probably fear, but is not a rightous fight one worth standing up for?

i have cst.sb on ignore as he appears to be only interested in smearing islam and muslims, so i don't really care what he/she says. if you can support your arguments then feel free - after all, you seem so happy with your (exclusive?) right to free speech... then show me that what you say is reasonable to someone who happens to be a member of the community whom you are attacking, and who knows your accusations to be both inflamatory and untrue.
As for cst.sb's statements and desires regarding this thread I can not and will not answer for him. I can support all of my arguments. Since the US and UK and many other governments have been seizing monies in their respective countries, funneled funds to Al-Quaida and other groups has greatly reduced. There is a US government report out regarding this, I just do not have it to display here. Those funds were almost entirely coming from Arabics who own businesses or are currently living in this country. Again, there are 18 known Hezbolla cells here, and more which are Al-Quaida. You will not convince me that those around them in the Arab communities do not have some suspicion about activities. Now, I will freely admit that as a retired member of a local law enforcement agency it would be very far fetched that the US government would come to my old department and disclose any details of any operations or survellance in my old area. So by that statement it is easy to assume I have no real idea if there is anything of the sort going on. But what I am talking about is public denouncing terrorists and their activities, as in big articles by Arabic Muslims in large papers like the New York Times (which happens to be a trash rag but it is big, and that is not the point) or the Wall Steet Journal.

I have been deeply offended by so many of the comments that have been made to me on this forum. i have in fact made a complaint to the people who run the website. I have seen racial and religious hatred on these pages, and have been harassed again and again with anti-muslim nonsense. if you have read all of my posts in this forum, you would know that i hate terrorism. you would also know that i was very close to the bus bombing last july, and so the issue of terrorism is a very sensitive one for me, as i could have died that day. even so, i would gladly put my life on the line to protect the citizens of London from attack in the future. for people like you to come on here and vent your hatred and unfounded suspiscion on me, whom you don't know, is sickening. and yes, i believe you should be ashamed of yourself. for someone from a civilised country to think it is justified to give grief to someone whom they know to be innocent for the crimes of others is both selfish and in contradiction to the very values people in law enforcement should have - namely respect for the law.
First, I personally do not see any racial hatred here. And as for religious hatred, it is not we (America) who started this. WE were attacked in an unprovoked cowardly surprise attack on unarmed people who could not defend themselves, nor were they given the opportunity. The radicals constantly refer to us as infadels, so how are we to respond? Say thank you? If there is any hatred, which I do not think that is the case, it was earned by those few who continue to hide in the shadows. Whom, by the way, are almost entirely made up of people of Arabic decent. And I will also freely admit that I have not read all of your posts. However, I do get a sense of your stance here, Muslims good-everyone who thinks they may be involved in terrorism bad. It is not YOU I have disagreed with, merely your opinion.

Secondly, very close to the bus bombings how?

Thirdly, if you 'would' be willing to put your life on the line to protect people, what have you done to show this? Have you been in the armed forces? I have. Have you served your community as an officer? I have. Have you been to combat? I have. And 'people like me?" Is that a racial or religious attack on me because I am a white Christian? What hate have I spewed?

Lastly, "someone you know to be innocent for the crimes of others." How would I know that? I have no idea who you are, and for all I know you could be Osama himself. I am not saying you are in anyway, but how would I know?
And from the movie, "Unforgiven" starring Clint Eastwood is this line by Gene Hackman, "Innocent? Innocent of what?"

if you think that what i have said to you is a personal attack, and that what you have said to me is not deeply personally offensive, then i suggest you re-read what you have said to me.
I think that this post was much more tempered, yet you still managed to get your shot in on me. I have not once personally attacked you, your position yes, but not you personally. I have also publicly written that I do not hate Muslims, in fact the opposite as I do have Muslim friends. I just do not trust them when it comes to this countries security from terrorism. I honestly do not believe that anyone here meant to offend. As you are very well aware, we are very sensitive here because we are a target. And when folks are sesitive sometimes things get said, or misunderstood by all involved. I will not apologize for my views, mostly because I am an American and free to say what I want. I will apologize if you took anything I said as an attack on you personally as that was not my intent.

lawhog

08-20-2006, 10:19 PM

I was just re-reading a couple of my posts, I will admit that I may have used "they" a little too liberally. That usage has the very high potential to be misread/misunderstood as meaning "ALL" when referring to Muslims. So I will in the future endevour to be more specific.

lawhog

08-20-2006, 10:26 PM

ok. you have basically said that muslims harbour terrorists.
No, not basically, I have said it.

you say that islam condones murder for apostasy. you say that Muslims don't speak out against terrorism. in fact, you say, they support terrorists. and on and on and on.

Yes, I did. And yes I stand by it, but with the addition/change of 'some Muslims, or maybe even many Muslims.'

crashtest

08-21-2006, 07:05 AM

geesh this is all confusing

CWMQKClady

08-21-2006, 02:46 PM

if you have read all of my posts in this forum, you would know that i hate terrorism. you would also know that i was very close to the bus bombing last july, and so the issue of terrorism is a very sensitive one for me, as i could have died that day. even so, i would gladly put my life on the line to protect the citizens of London from attack in the future.

I'm glad you have stated that you hate terrorism too. I hate terrorism as well. You sound as though you would fight against terrorism where ever it rears it's ugly head or where ever you have opportunity to do so. Since that is the case, how are you keeping yourself safe? People who oppose it as much as you do and who are muslim are in danger from extremists, just a small number mind you but still you are in danger.

How often do you speak out against terroism? In what ways have you shown your hatred for it? I know of a Muslim boy who converted to Christianity who now fears for his life. He has been told that if he ever returns to his home country he will be killed. How sad and frightening. I hope you are safe as you continue to speak out as much as you say you do.

And as for cst.sb, he/she just wants to have a few simple questions answered and since you fight against terrorism any information you could give him/her would be helpful. He/she says they are hard questions but I think you would be able to answer them.

lawhog

08-21-2006, 05:48 PM

CW-
I respect you and would like to request in the kindest terms that this not turn into an anti-THX thread. I am not implying that is your intent, I just do not want to have it go there and see you or me get the boot, bro! I know you understand!

THX1138

08-21-2006, 06:17 PM

I'm glad you have stated that you hate terrorism too. I hate terrorism as well. You sound as though you would fight against terrorism where ever it rears it's ugly head or where ever you have opportunity to do so. Since that is the case, how are you keeping yourself safe? People who oppose it as much as you do and who are muslim are in danger from extremists, just a small number mind you but still you are in danger.

Thank you for you kind words, lady. FYI, however, I am in no more and no less danger than my non-muslim friends and colleagues. Sometimes I get the feeling that people abroad have this vision that the UK is some hotbed of Islamic Extremism where there may be a terrorist on every street corner... it simply isn't the case. Why should I feel unsafe for speaking out against terrorism when that is the dominant view in society?

Let me tell you, I have never, ever, read an article in the British press or seen a speaker in Britain supporting terrorism. Yes, people with those views do exist. And yes, they are in hiding for good reason... they know that if they aired their views, they would be kicked out of their community and locked up. As for the rest of us, we are all against terrorism. Why I should have to spell that out to every person I come across just because I am a muslim mystifies me, other than the fact that I have to put up with racial and religious intolerance on a level that I never experience in my day to day life here in London.

In our press, you will find articles written by people from every creed, every ethnic makeup and most of the political spectrum (we don't give space to neo-nazis, or extremists of any stripe for that matter), and they all speak with one voice in absolute agreement against terrorism. And yes, there are alot of these articles written by muslims. Why anyone from the US or Canada or anywhere else for that matter should get such a different view is beyond me.

How often do you speak out against terroism? In what ways have you shown your hatred for it? I know of a Muslim boy who converted to Christianity who now fears for his life. He has been told that if he ever returns to his home country he will be killed. How sad and frightening. I hope you are safe as you continue to speak out as much as you say you do.

Are you going to judge me by the frequency and method of opposition to terrorism? I don't understand why you would ask such a question and I choose not to answer it. Frankly, I find it offensive that it is even a question. As for the boy who converted, I don't know where he came from, or what his situation is, but needless to say, it is a disgusting state of affairs... there is nothing in islam to justify that - let me repeat that... NOTHING - but i do know that problems like that, amongst others, are prevalent in many of the developing muslim countries. It is sad and frightening. But, again, I must stress that I am relatively safe here in London, just as I'm sure your friend is relatively safe wherever he is. Remember, I am no different from the vast majority of muslims in my country who are deeply opposed to terrorism. We don't hold back. We don't keep quiet about it. The question you might wish to ask yourself is, why are you not being presented with these facts?

Sorry, but I don't know why you think speaking out against terrorism is unsafe. I live in London. It is a fiercely liberal and cosmopolitan city. People are free here... freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom in general. As long as you don't have an adverse affect on your fellow citizens and live within the law, you can do whatever you want. We have a more than tolerant society here, and I am very proud to be a part of it. Don't let the acts of a few mindless criminals make you think anything otherwise.

And as for cst.sb, he/she just wants to have a few simple questions answered and since you fight against terrorism any information you could give him/her would be helpful. He/she says they are hard questions but I think you would be able to answer them.

Actually, I disagree. I have posted on many threads, and my posts have been followed, almost entirely, with swift following posts from cst.sb with the common thread being "here are examples of how muslims are evil terrorist killers/supporters/apologists" (delete as applicable). I did try to answer many of his questions, but all of my points were completely ignored, and simply replaced with more examples of all the evils muslims have done in the world. He has told me in no uncertain terms that he is not interested in reading the links I have given him, and not interested in learning the truth about islam and muslims, as it will not change his mind that muslims and islam are the enemy, myself included. Oh, and if you think his intentions are so pure, why would he send me an abusive email to my personal email account via the site? Not the actions of someone who just wants a few simple questions answered. (and yes, I have reported this)

THX1138

08-21-2006, 06:58 PM

I want to make certain I understand what you are saying here, are you saying that Muslims do not support terrorism? Anywhere? I do say they harbor terrorism and terrorists. It has been proven here in the US that we have no less than 18 Hezbolla cells. There are probably at LEAST that many Al-Quaida cells at the same time. And that's just here. If a person were truely set against terror and those who wish to perpetrate it upon us they would go out of their way to identify and turn them in. Those who are in agreement do not, and they do it on purpose.

you say muslims... what you mean are extremists. if you say muslims, then you mean all muslims in general (or most at least). That is what is offensive. How many people make up those cells, and the people who help them hide? and how many muslims are in america?

This is a fair statement, one I can not, however, agree with simply because terrorists are cowards and refuse to show themselves. Instead they hide in the shadows and attack those who are unarmed, unexpecting, and innocent. If I do not know who they are, and there are hundreds if not thousands who are just waiting, then all are suspect. Simple police investigations 101 whereby everyone is a suspect until proven otherwise. If in fact you are right about the smallest minority of your religion (and I suspect you are) then why do not more of you go public condeming these groups? I know that some it is probably fear, but is not a rightous fight one worth standing up for?

As i mentioned to CWMQKClady, we are not afraid... you just don't see what we do, and you assume the worst.

If you think we are all suspect, what is that based on? if it is down to ethnicity, then that is racial discrimination. if it is based on religion, then it is religious discrimination. whatever way you look at it, that is the very definition of racism and religious hatred/intolerance.

As for cst.sb's statements and desires regarding this thread I can not and will not answer for him. I can support all of my arguments. Since the US and UK and many other governments have been seizing monies in their respective countries, funneled funds to Al-Quaida and other groups has greatly reduced. There is a US government report out regarding this, I just do not have it to display here. Those funds were almost entirely coming from Arabics (sic) who own businesses or are currently living in this country. Again, there are 18 known Hezbolla cells here, and more which are Al-Quaida. You will not convince me that those around them in the Arab communities do not have some suspicion about activities. Now, I will freely admit that as a retired member of a local law enforcement agency it would be very far fetched that the US government would come to my old department and disclose any details of any operations or survellance in my old area. So by that statement it is easy to assume I have no real idea if there is anything of the sort going on. But what I am talking about is public denouncing terrorists and their activities, as in big articles by Arabic Muslims in large papers like the New York Times (which happens to be a trash rag but it is big, and that is not the point) or the Wall Steet Journal.

About arab communities - don't you understand that terrorist operatives are trained killers? they are trained to evade detection. they are trained to be secretive. that's what makes them so bloody deadly is that they are so small, and they use that fact to their advantage. they are not an army that wears a uniform, and that you can spot coming over the horizon.

as for the last part; well, what can I say?... you've just endigted (sp?) two American newspapers... what that has to do with me, or Britain, or muslims, or islam, I fail to see.

First, I personally do not see any racial hatred here. And as for religious hatred, it is not we (America) who started this. WE were attacked in an unprovoked cowardly surprise attack on unarmed people who could not defend themselves, nor were they given the opportunity. The radicals constantly refer to us as infadels, so how are we to respond? Say thank you? If there is any hatred, which I do not think that is the case, it was earned by those few who continue to hide in the shadows. Whom, by the way, are almost entirely made up of people of Arabic decent. And I will also freely admit that I have not read all of your posts. However, I do get a sense of your stance here, Muslims good-everyone who thinks they may be involved in terrorism bad. It is not YOU I have disagreed with, merely your opinion.

Mirriam Webster definition: racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

if you think that all people from an arabic background are suspect, then that by definition is racial discrimination.

how do you respond to radicals who call you infidels? errr... fight them? definitely not cast an evil eye on everyone from a certain part of the world, or from a certain religion. Even if the radicals claim to fight for that religion, this war is an idealogical war, fought for ideological reasons, and if you think it is about religion, then you are following the terrorists line of thought... hook, line and sinker.

you think my stance is "Muslims good-everyone who thinks they may be involved in terrorism bad." How?

Let me spell it out for you... insulting muslims and islam based on ignorance and prejudice = bad. respect for fellow human beings, regardless of background/faith = good.

Secondly, very close to the bus bombings how?

I said i was sensitive about this, and you ask me that? there's something called tact dude. close, how? proximity. what the hell did you think?

Thirdly, if you 'would' be willing to put your life on the line to protect people, what have you done to show this? Have you been in the armed forces? I have. Have you served your community as an officer? I have. Have you been to combat? I have. And 'people like me?" Is that a racial or religious attack on me because I am a white Christian? What hate have I spewed?

give yourself a pat on the back. "people like you" refers to people who make accusations and insults about a religion that they know very little about. I didn't know you were white, or christian until you told me just now. what i do know is that you have perpetuated lies about my religion, and use it as justification to provoke and attack me online, and then say you are not racist or islamophobic? please!

Lastly, "someone you know to be innocent for the crimes of others." How would I know that? I have no idea who you are, and for all I know you could be Osama himself. I am not saying you are in anyway, but how would I know?

If you don't know, and i ever had to rely on you to watch my back, then God help me.

And from the movie, "Unforgiven" starring Clint Eastwood is this line by Gene Hackman, "Innocent? Innocent of what?"

What????? I don't understand? what are you implying? I had been accused on these very boards of being a supporter of terrorism simply for being a muslim, which is disgusting! I protested my innocence, and this is what i get in return?

I think that this post was much more tempered, yet you still managed to get your shot in on me. I have not once personally attacked you, your position yes, but not you personally. I have also publicly written that I do not hate Muslims, in fact the opposite as I do have Muslim friends. I just do not trust them when it comes to this countries security from terrorism. I honestly do not believe that anyone here meant to offend. As you are very well aware, we are very sensitive here because we are a target. And when folks are sesitive sometimes things get said, or misunderstood by all involved. I will not apologize for my views, mostly because I am an American and free to say what I want. I will apologize if you took anything I said as an attack on you personally as that was not my intent.

if you don't trust muslims when it comes to issues of security, then you absolutely are islamophobic... let me ask you to do just one thing, please - go and tell your muslim 'friends' what you have just written here... will they still be your friends? you think your views are not offensive? how? and yes, you might not think it personal to attack islam and muslims, but if you are talking to a muslim who has already tried to explain how your beliefs about the religion and the people are wrong, but to no avail, then surely you must understand that it is personal, and it is offensive. you say that this is not your intention, and i'm sure you believe this, but your behaviour is something different altogether.

You say you stand by your claim that islam condones murder for apostasy. you have not backed this up. I tell you it is not true.

CWMQKClady

08-21-2006, 07:23 PM

Thank you for you kind words, lady. FYI, however, I am in no more and no less danger than my non-muslim friends and colleagues.

Are you going to judge me by the frequency and method of opposition to terrorism? I don't understand why you would ask such a question and I choose not to answer it. Frankly, I find it offensive that it is even a question.

Sorry, but I don't know why you think speaking out against terrorism is unsafe.

THX

I am glad that you feel you are safe. Any time that a group has opposition to it's teachings, members of that group tend to take offense easily(no not you). Now that can be any group, even Christian. I singled out Muslim because you are a Muslim. If you oppose (and you do) extreme violence then those who are in favor of this will not look favorably on your views and the expression of them no matter how safe and free you feel you are in expressing your views.

Members of any Christian denomination, for example, can oppose the teachings of its leaders. If that leadership is more on the liberal side then the oppostition will be from the conservative members and vice versa. They may not be in fear for their lives but some arguments can and do become heated. It's reasonable then to assume that anyone who stands in contrast to the teachings of a main group will then need to be careful and watchful that arguments do not get out of hand. This can and does happen unfortunately more often than we care to admit. This happens in America, Canada, and everwhere.

How often you oppose a group determines sometimes how much danger and or watchfulness you will have to prepare for. The more one speaks out the more visible they become.

I'm all for keeping a watchful eye on those who feel they have cause to harm us, whomever they may be.

CWMQKClady

08-21-2006, 07:29 PM

I would say that al-qaeda are by far the most 'successful' group operating in the world today in doing what you have mentioned. They do not represent muslims. they represent themselves. didn't you know that they have deemed it 'halal' (lawful by divine order) to kill 'muslims' that don't follow their doctrine, and thus get in the way of their plans? that includes me and all the other muslims around the world that you are so suspiscious of.

I'm confused by this the above quote and then by this quote in previous post, "Sorry, But I don't know why you think speaking out against terrorism is unsafe."

crashtest was right this is too hard to follow.

Well I hope you are safe and I sincerely mean that.

THX1138

08-21-2006, 08:30 PM

I'm confused by this the above quote and then by this quote in previous post, "Sorry, But I don't know why you think speaking out against terrorism is unsafe."

crashtest was right this is too hard to follow.

Well I hope you are safe and I sincerely mean that.

i don't see any contradiction... yes, al-qaeda are the most dangerous terrorist group operating in the world today. that doesn't change the fact that they are still a small minority. it is only dangerous if you speak out against a fascist majority, and this is simply not the case.

To put it bluntly, I'm not afraid of al-qaeda. why should i be? i've got more chance of being struck by lightning than i have of being confronted by some radical living in a mountain in afghanistan... the london bombings of 7/7/05 came too close to home, but why should i be afraid? I don't know why you're fretting over my safety... i'm not doing anything taboo.

THX1138

08-21-2006, 08:48 PM

THX
I am glad that you feel you are safe. Any time that a group has opposition to it's teachings, members of that group tend to take offense easily(no not you). Now that can be any group, even Christian. I singled out Muslim because you are a Muslim. If you oppose (and you do) extreme violence then those who are in favor of this will not look favorably on your views and the expression of them no matter how safe and free you feel you are in expressing your views.

I appreciate your concern, but really there is no need to worry. where are the people that favour extreme violence??? they are in hiding, that's where! so who's afraid of who? who cares whether they look favourably on my views or not - i don't want them around, my country doesn't want them around, my faith doesn't want them around. they can go to hell for all i care.

Members of any Christian denomination, for example, can oppose the teachings of its leaders. If that leadership is more on the liberal side then the oppostition will be from the conservative members and vice versa. They may not be in fear for their lives but some arguments can and do become heated. It's reasonable then to assume that anyone who stands in contrast to the teachings of a main group will then need to be careful and watchful that arguments do not get out of hand. This can and does happen unfortunately more often than we care to admit. This happens in America, Canada, and everwhere.

your assumption is that my opinions are in contrast to the main group, when in fact they are not... this is what i've been saying here for weeks!

How often you oppose a group determines sometimes how much danger and or watchfulness you will have to prepare for. The more one speaks out the more visible they become.

I live in Britain, remember? how does speaking out against terrorism make me more visible? there's no shortage of muslim broadcasters, journalists, politicians, civil servants ad nauseam who are already doing this in a high profile way. If people choose to ignore this because it doesn't fit with their belief that muslims are somehow complicit in terrorism, then that is their problem, not mine.

I'm all for keeping a watchful eye on those who feel they have cause to harm us, whomever they may be.

I totally agree.

cst.sb

08-21-2006, 09:04 PM

Let me tell you, I have never, ever, read an article in the British press or seen a speaker in Britain supporting terrorism. Yes, people with those views do exist. And yes, they are in hiding for good reason... they know that if they aired their views, they would be kicked out of their community and locked up.

Ok, for those of you reading this, and don't have me on your ignore lists, here is a classic example of THX denials and lies.

He has admitted to be aware of the extremist views thats have been associated with Finsbury Park mosque and Sheikh Abu Hamza. Sheikh Abu Hamza extremist views have been documented in probably every media, print, tv, and radio, in the UK. To state that he has never ever read an article supporting terrorism he obviously don't read, listen, or watch, anything other than his Qu'ran.

He has accused me of not engaging in dialogue and only posting links to Islamic terrorism news stories. The fact is I have asked him numerous times to answer the most simplest of questions that every "non-jihadist" should be able to answer. THX common response is to blame interference of the west and Israel, while at the same time denoucing terrorism.

THX has not responded to a single question presented to him, and dislikes any answers presented to him, especially answered supported by main stream media and historical reasources.

I believe that it means nothing to denouce terrorism if you are not willing to denouce the root cause. And the root cause here is radical/extremist Islam that is being supported by morderate Islam.

Back to THX being less than truthful, the BBC has been reporting that the Finsbury Park mosque has had links to terrorism since 2002. A google seach with "Finsbury Park mosque" in quotations reveals 78,800 hits. And Dr. Hook "Sheikh Abu Hamza" has 18,400 hits when googled in quotations.

Here is a sample of the things Sheikh Abu Hamza has OPENLY AND PUBLICLY stood for: (courtest of wiki- full bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri))

Abu Hamza, formerly the imam of Finsbury Park Mosque in North London, runs "Supporters of Sharia", a group dedicated to the rule of Islamic law. In 2003, he addressed a rally in central London called by the radical Islamic group al-Muhajiroun, where members spoke of their support for al-Qaeda.

On 4 February, 2003 (after being suspended since April 2002) Hamza was dismissed from his position at his mosque by the Charity Commission, the statutory organisation that regulates charities (and hence most places of worship) in England and Wales. After his ejection from the mosque, he preached outside the gates until he was imprisoned on remand. [5]

Hamza has publicly expressed support for al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and against the UK government's involvement in the War in Iraq.

Sheikh Abu Hamza has also be featured in numerous documentaries due to extremist views and support of terrorism, from PBS Frontline, the BBC, and Canada's CBC, yet somehow THX has never ever heard of seen a Muslim publicly support terror in his counrty.

Are the alarm bells going off yet?

lawhog

08-21-2006, 09:35 PM

I totally agree.
So long as they are not;
1) Arabic
2) Muslim
3) Any combination of Muslim and any other race.

All others are subject to scrutiny. PUHLEEZE

cst.sb

08-21-2006, 09:47 PM

lawhog

08-21-2006, 09:47 PM

I will not be drawn into a slanderfest with you. You refuse to answer my questions, and respond only with attacks on me and name calling for my opinions on American Homeland Security. I am beginning to see a pattern here, and I am begining to form an opinion of who and what you are. You state you have read the Arabic version of the Qu'ran, yet you are from an area of the world (northern Africa- unless you are from Egypt which would probably make you Arabic descent) that speaks not Arabic, but more likely Swahili. My neighbor is from the Ivory Coast, and he assures me that you would not speak arabic if you are from that area of the world. Oh, and by the way, he is Muslim and he is at my house 4 or 5 days a week. He and his family eat dinner with us. They swim in our pool. They have gone to Lions and Spartan football games with us. We are very close. Yet, he knows my stance on terrorism and Muslims. Yet he continues to be one of my closest friends. Why, because he HAS written several articles denouncing terrorism and those who perpetrate. Not to big papers, but to the local Muslim paper he subscribes to. He is a true man.

you say muslims... what you mean are extremists. if you say muslims, then you mean all muslims in general (or most at least). That is what is offensive. How many people make up those cells, and the people who help them hide? and how many muslims are in america?

As i mentioned to CWMQKClady, we are not afraid... you just don't see what we do, and you assume the worst.

If you think we are all suspect, what is that based on? if it is down to ethnicity, then that is racial discrimination. if it is based on religion, then it is religious discrimination. whatever way you look at it, that is the very definition of racism and religious hatred/intolerance.

About arab communities - don't you understand that terrorist operatives are trained killers? they are trained to evade detection. they are trained to be secretive. that's what makes them so bloody deadly is that they are so small, and they use that fact to their advantage. they are not an army that wears a uniform, and that you can spot coming over the horizon.

as for the last part; well, what can I say?... you've just endigted (sp?) two American newspapers... what that has to do with me, or Britain, or muslims, or islam, I fail to see.

Mirriam Webster definition: racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

if you think that all people from an arabic background are suspect, then that by definition is racial discrimination.

how do you respond to radicals who call you infidels? errr... fight them? definitely not cast an evil eye on everyone from a certain part of the world, or from a certain religion. Even if the radicals claim to fight for that religion, this war is an idealogical war, fought for ideological reasons, and if you think it is about religion, then you are following the terrorists line of thought... hook, line and sinker.

you think my stance is "Muslims good-everyone who thinks they may be involved in terrorism bad." How?

Let me spell it out for you... insulting muslims and islam based on ignorance and prejudice = bad. respect for fellow human beings, regardless of background/faith = good.

I said i was sensitive about this, and you ask me that? there's something called tact dude. close, how? proximity. what the hell did you think?

give yourself a pat on the back. "people like you" refers to people who make accusations and insults about a religion that they know very little about. I didn't know you were white, or christian until you told me just now. what i do know is that you have perpetuated lies about my religion, and use it as justification to provoke and attack me online, and then say you are not racist or islamophobic? please!

If you don't know, and i ever had to rely on you to watch my back, then God help me.

What????? I don't understand? what are you implying? I had been accused on these very boards of being a supporter of terrorism simply for being a muslim, which is disgusting! I protested my innocence, and this is what i get in return?

if you don't trust muslims when it comes to issues of security, then you absolutely are islamophobic... let me ask you to do just one thing, please - go and tell your muslim 'friends' what you have just written here... will they still be your friends? you think your views are not offensive? how? and yes, you might not think it personal to attack islam and muslims, but if you are talking to a muslim who has already tried to explain how your beliefs about the religion and the people are wrong, but to no avail, then surely you must understand that it is personal, and it is offensive. you say that this is not your intention, and i'm sure you believe this, but your behaviour is something different altogether.

You say you stand by your claim that islam condones murder for apostasy. you have not backed this up. I tell you it is not true.
I have not backed this up? Read cst.sb's posts. I do not need to back it up because he beat me to it. Will not read it? Big surprise. It has the truth in it.

lawhog

08-21-2006, 09:51 PM

...oxymoron...
10 points for $20 word usage! Nicely done fitting it in here! I love that word. It is just so fun to say.

Group 29

08-21-2006, 10:04 PM

Yeah, I support the use of race as an indicator in finding terrorists, but only as one indicator.

For instance, if I was looking for an IRA member coming off a flight, and I saw some Mickey Rourke looking guy come off of the plane at the same time as an elderly black female, I think I know which one I would be looking at for more indicators.

If I am looking for arab islamic terrorists getting off of a plane, I think I would pay a lot more attention to any arabs muslims I saw, than blonde Swedes.

But, I wouldn't jack someone up just for being an arab muslim without any other indicators. Knowing all of the possible indicators of behavior of someone engaged in a terroristic activity, I believe you can successfully, and consistently, pick these people out. It is crazy to waste your time on people where there is a low probability of their being a terrorists, just to keep from hurting peoples feelings.

Behavior profiling has been proven to work in my experience with it.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 07:25 AM

Ok, for those of you reading this, and don't have me on your ignore lists, here is a classic example of THX denials and lies.

He has admitted to be aware of the extremist views thats have been associated with Finsbury Park mosque and Sheikh Abu Hamza. Sheikh Abu Hamza extremist views have been documented in probably every media, print, tv, and radio, in the UK. To state that he has never ever read an article supporting terrorism he obviously don't read, listen, or watch, anything other than his Qu'ran.

actually, Abu Hamza never wrote any articles for the British press... he was reported therein as an extremist, which he is, and he has been prosecuted as such.

I did try to answer your questions, but i got plenty of abuse in response, so why should i continue?

THX1138

08-22-2006, 07:31 AM

You state you have read the Arabic version of the Qu'ran, yet you are from an area of the world (northern Africa- unless you are from Egypt which would probably make you Arabic descent) that speaks not Arabic, but more likely Swahili. My neighbor is from the Ivory Coast, and he assures me that you would not speak arabic if you are from that area of the world...
I have not backed this up? Read cst.sb's posts. I do not need to back it up because he beat me to it. Will not read it? Big surprise. It has the truth in it.

I am from Egypt. Arabic is spoken across North Africa, from Morocco, through Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and then Egypt. Ivory Coast is in Central West Africa... please look at a map.

Did you tell your friend you wouldn't trust him with the national security of your country which you both live in? What kind of man would accept such views from a friend?

cst.sb posted a translation of two verses completely out of context, without reference to the circumstances of revelation, and with nothing to do with apostasy, so no, your accusations were not backed up. I ask you again to please show me proof of what you have said.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 07:36 AM

THX1138

08-22-2006, 07:36 AM

So long as they are not;
1) Arabic
2) Muslim
3) Any combination of Muslim and any other race.

All others are subject to scrutiny. PUHLEEZE

I never said that.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 07:42 AM

Further to THX's statement that I have refused to look at the links that he has provided during this debate; I find it absolutely ridiculous that he would expect me, or anyone else to actually read a document on Islamic Human Rights. The very term is an oxymoron, as there are very few nations in the world that can boost worse human rights violations than those commited by Islamic nations.

When THX asked why it only took me less then five minutes to read the Islamic Human Rights link, I believe I responded with comment in regards to the 5000 rape victims that are currently imprisoned in Pakistan. Sadly, but not surpisingly, he had no comment on that issue.

in other words, your response was - I'm not interested in what you have to say... look at all the examples of how muslims do evil in the world

Pakistan is a country I know very little about. For me, rape is a very serious crime, and quite frankly I find the laws here in the UK are too lax regarding rapists. I can't comment on the Pakistan issue as I don't know all the facts, but i can comment that it is not an islamic thing. What you say sounds terrible if it is true, but again, you are using it as another example of hey, look at how islam and muslims are evil, which i take issue with.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 07:54 AM

Are the alarm bells going off yet?

why do you persist in fearmongering? I said i never read an article supporting terrorism. that's true. I didn't say that people like Abu Hamza don't exist, because I know they do, but i also know that they are outlaws and are treated as such. they are a fringe minority, and are far from the mainstream. end of. Did you ever see an article in the press written by Abu Hamza? I don't think so.

are they a problem? yes! should i apologise for them? no! they are scum, and have nothing to do with my faith. I have nothing to apologise for, and they have no defense for what they do.

you want to lump me with them because i am muslim and i defend myself against smears against my religion. you have been abusive, and i don't appreciate it. you have harassed me and i don't appreciate that either.

Group 29

08-22-2006, 10:47 AM

I agree with you on this... of course, I would take a persons race into account, but not alone. As you say, behaviour profiling does work, and we have to use all the tools we have at our disposal. I just don't agree with people who say that we should profile solely on ethnicity, as that is just racist and not intelligent.

Being accused of being racist would not be enough to stop me from doing it. I wouldn't stop and question someone just because they are a muslim arab because there are too many of them to make it feasible to do that and it would be a waste of investigative time that could be used better.

It's the same when I worked airport interdiction and I would approach a black person to talk to them and they said I was picking on them because they were black. I would answer, well, 'why do you think I didn't just stop the first black person I saw instead of you if that is all I am doing?'

Just because you don't know why I picked you, that doesn't mean I picked you because of your race.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 03:13 PM

Being accused of being racist would not be enough to stop me from doing it. I wouldn't stop and question someone just because they are a muslim arab because there are too many of them to make it feasible to do that and it would be a waste of investigative time that could be used better.

It's the same when I worked airport interdiction and I would approach a black person to talk to them and they said I was picking on them because they were black. I would answer, well, 'why do you think I didn't just stop the first black person I saw instead of you if that is all I am doing?'

Just because you don't know why I picked you, that doesn't mean I picked you because of your race.

I agree (i think)... if you don't do it based only on ethnicity, then you are not racist, so no-one has the right to call you that.

You mention a very good example, and one we are all familiar with.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 06:29 PM

I am from Egypt.
The rest of the post aside, not too bad investigatory work on my part if I do say so myself. At least for an ignorant racist who is anti-semantic.

Just so you know, when you call someone anti-semantic, you might want to know what it means first. I find it absolutely impossible to be anti-semantic towards anyone who is Muslim. Like I said before, one might do some research (which is where one actually goes to study ones questions, in things such as books, to find the answers to those questions without relying on ones own self or what they have read online. I will use your own source and quote The Merriam Webster Dictionary;

anti-sematism\ an-ti-se-me-ti-zem\n: hostility toward Jews as a religious or social minority\ adj

lawhog

08-22-2006, 06:31 PM

Did you tell your friend you wouldn't trust him with the national security of your country which you both live in? What kind of man would accept such views from a friend?

Once again I find myself having to ask some here to research before they answer. Please go and READ post #193.

And to fairly answer your second question, a man who also stands publicly against terrorism and fully understands that it is Muslim Arabic males ages 17-35 who are most likely to carry out attacks on this country. Well, until recently that was the greatest threat. It would seem that we must now worry about Muslim Arabic women with children in tow, as well. I believe that my friend would answer by asking what kind of a man would not be able to stand up to a small amount of scrutiny in these trying times, and man not worthy of friendship. Like I said, he is a true man and a great friend.

One last thing, and this IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU, rather merely an observation; you make a lot of assumptions about me and my possible lack of knowledge regarding Islam and the beliefs associated therein. You would likely be surprised, as I have had uncountable conversations around my pool and in both of our rec rooms with a true believer in Islam who does not pervert what his bible says into reasons to kill innocents.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 06:33 PM

I never said that.
Fair enough. You never did say that. Inferences, however, have a way of leading a trained investigator in certain directions.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 06:33 PM

The rest of the post aside, not too bad investigatory work on part if I do say so myself. At least for an ignorant racist who is anti-semantic.

Just so you know, when you call someone anti-semantic, you might want to know what it means first. I find it absolutely impossible to be anti-semantic towards anyone who is Muslim. Like I said before, one might do some research (which is where one actually goes to study ones questions, in things such as books, to find the answers to those questions without relying on ones own self or what they have read online. I will use your own source and quote The Merriam Webster Dictionary;

anti-sematism\ an-ti-se-me-ti-zem\n: hostility toward Jews as a religious or social minority\ adj

sorry, but i have no idea what you are talking about. I never called you anti-semantic (sic), and I never called you anti-semitic either.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 06:34 PM

Fair enough. You never did say that. Inferences, however, have a way of leading a trained investigator in certain directions.

I never inferred it either. what is your point?

THX1138

08-22-2006, 06:39 PM

Once again I find myself having to ask some here to research before they answer. Please go and READ post #193.

I read it. you say he is one of your closest friends. You have him round at your house, and you go to games together. You want me to believe that you have told this man that you would not trust him with matters of national security because he is a muslim? I doubt that very much.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 06:45 PM

I do, however, defend myself against the kind of racist/islamaphobic (take your pick based on your own semantic perceptions) bile that is being posted on the internet.
Here is one example.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 06:56 PM

I read it. you say he is one of your closest friends. You have him round at your house, and you go to games together. You want me to believe that you have told this man that you would not trust him with matters of national security because he is a muslim? I doubt that very much.
Well lets see, I have given you my position without sugar coating it. I have no reason to hide that he might or might not know my position. He does, and he is ok with it. That is not to say he likes it, but he understands and continues to speak out against those who are too cowardly to fight an open war. His and his families lives are probably in danger, but he does not pause in the face of that possible danger. He understands who and what we are up against. He understands what it means to be free and what it must sometimes require of him. Like I said, he is a true man. If you choose to not believe me to try to further your argument, that is your choice.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 07:02 PM

Again, I have no desire to get into a slanderfest with you. I seek reasonable debate in an adult tone. I am not the one who contines to drag this backward. I even offered an olive branch, both on the thread and in a PM that I am willing to send to anyone who wants to see it. Yet both were slapped away, with no response to the PM. Unless you wish to engage in honest debate I must ignore. I do not wish to attack, or been seen as personally attacking anyone on Officer.com.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 09:16 PM

Here is one example.

Webster:

Main Entry: se·man·tic
Pronunciation: si-'man-tik
Variant(s): also se·man·ti·cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek sEmantikos significant, from sEmainein to signify, mean, from sEma sign, token
1 : of or relating to meaning in language
2 : of or relating to semantics

I was refering to the use of language, with regards to the meaning of the words racist and islamophobic. But then, you are a 'trained detective', so you know this already, right?

As for your other comment, yes it is true that you sent me a PM, but as far as i am concerned, if you want to have an honest and open debate then do it in public. you sent me a PM saying let's be nice, but at almost the same time, you made a post on the forum that was very aggressive.

I appreciate that you don't want to get into a slanging match, and that you don't want to be seen to be making personal attacks on this forum. me too. i have come across a real muslim-basher on here, and it certainly isn't you. but at the same time, you've told me to do my homework/research etc. when you yourself have put words in my mouth which i didn't say (or infer, or alude to, or anything else), you say being of north african descent means i can't speak/read arabic, and you think that the koran says that apostates should be killed.

you make wide swathing comments about islam and muslims which are unjust, and this needs to be pointed out to you. is this the state of law enforcement today?

you are a detective... please put the pieces together.

cst.sb

08-22-2006, 09:21 PM

in other words, your response was - I'm not interested in what you have to say... .

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not read the Islamic Human Rights link, because as far as my research has shown, there isn't an Islamic country that practices what we in the west consider as human rights.

Pakistan is a country I know very little about. For me, rape is a very serious crime, and quite frankly I find the laws here in the UK are too lax regarding rapists. I can't comment on the Pakistan issue as I don't know all the facts, but i can comment that it is not an islamic thing. What you say sounds terrible if it is true, but again, you are using it as another example of hey, look at how islam and muslims are evil, which i take issue with.

Maybe you should stop arguing and start reading and learning about what's going on in Pakistan and other places if you want to maintain some credibility.

It may seem to you that I constantly post negative and fear mongering articles about Muslims. But the real question should be why are all these things happening. I happen to believe that they are happening because so called moderates such as yourself, are simply ignorant to world affairs, or is a state of denial.

You say it is un-islamic to rape, then why does it happen so often, and why are the victims often imprisoned or killed?

You are familiar with Shari'a

004.015

YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

You know THX, it's not about picking on Muslims, it's not about picking on Arabs, it's about the many many people that believe that my way of life, and by most accounts, yours as well, is wrong.

If you are from Eygpt, then you should be well aware of the racism and intorlance there, as 19 Mulsim brotherhood terrorists were voted into parliment. And Eygpt along with the Saudi taught hate in there public school systems.

So I ask you, what can we do to make things better?

THX1138

08-22-2006, 09:22 PM

I do, however, defend myself against the kind of racist/islamaphobic (take your pick based on your own semantic perceptions) bile that is being posted on the internet.

Just so you know, when you call someone anti-semantic, you might want to know what it means first. I find it absolutely impossible to be anti-semantic towards anyone who is Muslim. Like I said before, one might do some research (which is where one actually goes to study ones questions, in things such as books, to find the answers to those questions without relying on ones own self or what they have read online. I will use your own source and quote The Merriam Webster Dictionary;

anti-sematism\ an-ti-se-me-ti-zem\n: hostility toward Jews as a religious or social minority\ adj

sorry, i had to bring this up... please read every word you said... who did their research here?

cst.sb

08-22-2006, 09:24 PM

you make wide swathing comments about islam and muslims which are unjust, and this needs to be pointed out to you. is this the state of law enforcement today?.

Well, considering that there are no less than three terrorist Islamic terrorist attacks around the world daily (those are the ones you here about in main stream media) and countless other investigations. Yes, sadly it is the state of law enforcement today.

So again, what can we do to change things for the better?

cst.sb

08-22-2006, 10:14 PM

Guess, I am back on the ignore list.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 10:29 PM

sorry, i had to bring this up... please read every word you said... who did their research here?

anti-sematism\an-ti-se-me-ti-zem\n: hostility toward Jews as a religiou or social minority--anti-semintic\se-mi-tik\adj

So sorry I left that out. I can see what you mean about me not doing MY research. Nicely done. :rolleyes:

lawhog

08-22-2006, 10:31 PM

Guess, I am back on the ignore list.
I will talk to you, Constable.

So, hows the weather in the great up north?

lawhog

08-22-2006, 10:37 PM

Webster:

Main Entry: se·man·tic
Pronunciation: si-'man-tik

My book shows the little upside down "e" which my keyboard does not have. So I type it the closest I can to what the book says.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 10:38 PM

annti-sematism\an-ti-se-me-ti-zem\n: hostility toward Jews as a religiou or social minority--anti-semintic\se-mi-tik\adj

So sorry I left that out. I can see what you mean about me not doing MY research. Nicely done. :rolleyes:

not sure if you are being serious or not.

FYI, it's anti-semitic, and anti- semitism... strictly speaking, semitic refers to the Semites, which includes jews, but also arabs and other ancient peoples from southwest asia and their descendants. Israeli arabs and Palestinians are also Semites.

I, however, used the word semantic, which has a different meaning altogether.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 10:44 PM

Webster:

Main Entry: se·man·tic
Pronunciation: si-'man-tik
Variant(s): also se·man·ti·cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek sEmantikos significant, from sEmainein to signify, mean, from sEma sign, token
1 : of or relating to meaning in language
2 : of or relating to semantics

I was refering to the use of language, with regards to the meaning of the words racist and islamophobic. But then, you are a 'trained detective', so you know this already, right?

As for your other comment, yes it is true that you sent me a PM, but as far as i am concerned, if you want to have an honest and open debate then do it in public. you sent me a PM saying let's be nice, but at almost the same time, you made a post on the forum that was very aggressive.

I appreciate that you don't want to get into a slanging match, and that you don't want to be seen to be making personal attacks on this forum. me too. i have come across a real muslim-basher on here, and it certainly isn't you. but at the same time, you've told me to do my homework/research etc. when you yourself have put words in my mouth which i didn't say (or infer, or alude to, or anything else), you say being of north african descent means i can't speak/read arabic, and you think that the koran says that apostates should be killed.

you make wide swathing comments about islam and muslims which are unjust, and this needs to be pointed out to you. is this the state of law enforcement today?

you are a detective... please put the pieces together.
I may not have made stance clear, so I will one last time; I wish to not engage in a slanderfest, slugfest, pi**ing match, name calling contest, whos is bigger contest, sticks and stones contest, or any other word throwing contest which someone can come up with a title for. If the "but you called me a bad name" game stops I will be happy to debate this on a meaningful level. Until then, I hope to discuss other things with you in another thread.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 10:48 PM

not sure if you are being serious or not.

FYI, it's anti-semitic, and anti- semitism... strictly speaking, semitic refers to the Semites, which includes jews, but also arabs and other ancient peoples from southwest asia and their descendants. Israeli arabs and Palestinians are also Semites.

I, however, used the word semantic, which has a different meaning altogether.
A little of both! I have big fingers and sometimes they go where they want! Spelling aside, the definition is ver-batim from my Webster. It says nothing about the Palestinians. So I will have to do further research on that topic. See, is not this a better level to communicate; whereby we are not trying to dig on each other?

lawhog

08-22-2006, 10:50 PM

FYI, it's anti-semitic, and anti- semitism... strictly speaking, semitic refers to the Semites, which includes jews, but also arabs and other ancient peoples from southwest asia and their descendants. Israeli arabs and Palestinians are also Semites.

I, however, used the word semantic, which has a different meaning altogether.
Unless we were both uneducated as to the proper spelling. But to re-offer the olive branch, I will take your word that you meant to spell it that way visa vie the different meaning.

THX1138

08-22-2006, 10:54 PM

A little of both! I have big fingers and sometimes they go where they want! Spelling aside, the definition is ver-batim from my Webster. It says nothing about the Palestinians. So I will have to do further research on that topic. See, is not this a better level to communicate; whereby we are not trying to dig on each other?

yes. i suggest looking up semitic, and i sincerely hope you have looked up semantic as that is the word you misconstrued in the first place.

Unless we were both uneducated as to the proper spelling. But to re-offer the olive branch, I will take your word that you meant to spell it that way visa vie the different meaning.

I accept the olive branch.

FYI, I spelt it the way I meant it... I studied semantics for almost a year at university, along with semiotics (signs and symbols)... it was a very lonnnnnnnnnnng time ago, but i still remember!!! ;)

THX1138

08-22-2006, 11:08 PM

lawhog

08-22-2006, 11:08 PM

. I studied semantics for almost a year at university, along with semiotics (signs and symbols)... it was a very lonnnnnnnnnnng time ago, but i still remember!!! ;)
I started out as an engineering student under scholarship, where I met my future wife. I switched to material science. I spent a year in Statistical Analasys classes during that time. It was a long time ago too, but what I remember most was how borrrrrrrrrrrrrrring it was! How I ended up a cop is another story altogether for another day! Off to try to get some sleep, now that I have a new friend! Later THX!

OFK

08-22-2006, 11:11 PM

I voted YES, however the faces of those who would carry out an attack are changing and will become more and more like the guy or gal next door. I think that terrorist profiling needs a serious overhaul, but going with what we have now, I would say ya.

lawhog

08-22-2006, 11:16 PM

I just checked Webster online, and the definition for semantics (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=semantics) is probably slightly clearer if you are new to the term.

Q: Do you still think I don't speak arabic? or that I have read the Koran in arabic (many times over)? do you still doubt what I've told you about the issues that were raised earlier?

Here's something you might be interested in... did you know that alcohol is not forbidden in the Koran? ask your friend what he thinks about this... anyone who has read the Koranic script will know this to be true. if he disagrees, then ask him to check. i thought it was forbidden because everyone told me so... when i read it for myself, i was amazed!!! :D

just one of many myths about our religion.

(no, there's nothing about women covering their faces/wearing black, men growing their beards, wearing robes... etc. etc... i could go on forever, and that's before we even come close to things like "killing all infidels" and "killing apostates" :eek: )
Being that I have a graduate degree, I am familiar with many of our words! Semantic happens to be one of them. I did, however, spell semitic completely wrong. :o

And being that you have stated you are from Egypt, I have no doubt that you can speak Arabic. I know that the entire country does not speak the language, but most do. As for reading the qu'ran many times over, I might have a slightly more difficult time believing that. No offense. My own Bible is very long, and almost impossible to read straight through. I suspect that yours is the same, but I could be wrong. I have been wrong once before!! :D

To be completely honest, I thought it was forbidden. I will talk with Yusi. See what he says, but even though he is a Muslim, he does drink some and lives a fairly Americanised lifestyle. His wife does not cover her face, and she wears makeup. I do, however, wish that you would read what cst.sb has quoted. Even if you avoid coversation with him, I would like to know what you think. I have found his posts to be filled with quotes that I could, and have often just for my own knowledge, confirmed.

THX1138

08-23-2006, 12:58 PM

And being that you have stated you are from Egypt, I have no doubt that you can speak Arabic. I know that the entire country does not speak the language, but most do.

Arabic is the official language of the whole country, so all native people speak it.

As for reading the qu'ran many times over, I might have a slightly more difficult time believing that. No offense. My own Bible is very long, and almost impossible to read straight through. I suspect that yours is the same, but I could be wrong. I have been wrong once before!! :D

I read the Bible and found it very easy to read. I read the Koran many times over... English translations (i believe i tried 3 different authors... all were lacking!), and the original arabic version, which I read several times also. It isn't that hard... it's just like reading a large novel, which most people do easily on any given vacation - it just requires concentration and paying attention to the details, then it totally flows. I did go to a grammar school, so not sure if that helped... i don't think i'm particularly unusual - i was just really interested in learning the truth about it. I read the Torah first, then the Gospel, and then the Recitation (Koran/Qur'an). Not sure why you would have any reason to doubt this. I have no reason to embellish the truth.

To be completely honest, I thought it was forbidden. I will talk with Yusi. See what he says, but even though he is a Muslim, he does drink some and lives a fairly Americanised lifestyle. His wife does not cover her face, and she wears makeup.

Most people do think this... even alot of muslims! Your friend sounds like he's on the money. Not quite sure what you mean by "Americanised lifestyle"... what is that exactly, and how does that differ from say, a British lifestyle? Just curious.

I do, however, wish that you would read what cst.sb has quoted. Even if you avoid coversation with him, I would like to know what you think. I have found his posts to be filled with quotes that I could, and have often just for my own knowledge, confirmed.

Sorry, but his posts are muslim-bashing, plain and simple. Quoting the Koran out of context, with an extremist twist, is easy to do... that's what Al-Qaeda do, and I don't buy it. I don't agree with his interpretation, and I won't qualify his posts with a response after the abuse he has given me.

If you want to ask me about something, that is a different matter. I am still waiting for the evidence about the apostasy/murder claims, and will gladly look into it, if you can provide it.

cst.sb

08-23-2006, 01:13 PM

Here's something you might be interested in... did you know that alcohol is not forbidden in the Koran? ask your friend what he thinks about this... anyone who has read the Koranic script will know this to be true. if he disagrees, then ask him to check. i thought it was forbidden because everyone told me so... when i read it for myself, i was amazed!!!

I'm sure that there many misinterpretations of the Qu'ran. And whether or not alcohol or a headscarf, etc is forbidden or not, is not the problem. The problem is with the religious leaders that say it is.

THX may think he is allowed to drink alcohol, but many religous leaders say it's not ok to consume alcohol.

http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/menu/4/?lang=eng&view=d&code=35&page=1

Other websites say as long as isn't Najis (impure) it's ok, but can't be consumed. And finally some say if it's not Najis it can be consumed in small quantities.

HOWEVER, this does not change anything with regards to the topic at hand!!

It's great that THX can sit down and drink a beer with us. Though, having a beer with him would be far more appealing if he would sit down with that beer admitting that there are significant issuse (which he skillfully avoid responding too) within the world Islam today.

cst.sb

08-23-2006, 01:29 PM

Sorry, but his posts are muslim-bashing, plain and simple. Quoting the Koran out of context, with an extremist twist, is easy to do... that's what Al-Qaeda do, and I don't buy it. I don't agree with his interpretation, and I won't qualify his posts with a response after the abuse he has given me..

How am I muslim bashing?

Every inicident I have provided is matter of public knowledge and easily located.

As for my misquoting the Qu'ran.... guess what I didn't write it. In fact I quote via the "cut and paste" method, and here's my source.

The University of Southern California's compendium of Muslim texts.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

And Abuse?

THX at EVERY you have failed to answer ANY of the questions directed at you about current and histoical incidents of violence committed by Muslims. Instead, you bring up things like Buddhist Terrorist and beinging able to drink alcohol. And when pressed on the issues, such as rape in Pakistan, you claim ignorance.

You sir, are exactly the problem with moderate Islam - it's complete refusal to openly and transparently debate the issues.

THX1138

08-23-2006, 07:55 PM

here we go again

cst.sb

08-23-2006, 07:58 PM

here we go again

You've never went, and we've never discussed the issues. Because as far as you are concerned there aren't any issues.

Correct?

cst.sb

08-23-2006, 09:38 PM

here we go again

guess not..........................................

THX1138

08-26-2006, 12:01 AM

ok, i will try and respond, seeing as you seem to have almost killed this topic, which i don't want. i was hoping to have a genuine look at the issue, but i've spent most of my time defending myself against your accusations and attacks... anyway, here goes. i promise not to make any of this personal, and i hope you will be able to meet me on that level.

How am I muslim bashing?

Every inicident I have provided is matter of public knowledge and easily located.

and that is exactly the point... by bringing up incidents of aggression or atrocities, however true, in response to any comment or issue regarding islam and muslims, without context and without direct link to the topic at hand is muslim bashing.

As for my misquoting the Qu'ran.... guess what I didn't write it. In fact I quote via the "cut and paste" method, and here's my source.

not misquoting, but quoting out of context... not even a koranic verse out of context, but interpretations out of context. of course, you achieved what you intended, which is to show the koran in a violent and intolerant light, which if understood properly is entirely unjustified.

And Abuse?

Yes.

THX at EVERY you have failed to answer ANY of the questions directed at you about current and histoical incidents of violence committed by Muslims. Instead, you bring up things like Buddhist Terrorist and beinging able to drink alcohol. And when pressed on the issues, such as rape in Pakistan, you claim ignorance.

not true... I answered many of your questions, but you ignored my responses in favour of cutting and pasting more examples of how bad muslims can be. this was pointed out to you by myself and another poster, but you refused to relent. that is why i stopped responding to your comments as you showed no interest in listening to my responses. it is also the reason i made a formal complaint about your behaviour. i'm sure you are an otherwise respected member of this forum, but in dealing with this issue your tone appears to be bullying and derogatory. i would not hesitate to report you again were you to continue being abusive.

the topic is about racial profiling, and you want me to answer for every atrocity in the world committed by 'muslims'... i don't think that is fair. eg. rape in pakistan... i don't know the facts. why should i? i'm not pakistani, i'm british. even so, i don't think the pakistani's have a monopoly on rape. i'm sure it is a problem in canada, just as it is here in britain, but i don't see anyone pointing the finger at how evil christendom is for having such societal ills, because that would be ludicrous. can you see it from the other point of view?

You sir, are exactly the problem with moderate Islam - it's complete refusal to openly and transparently debate the issues.

That, sir, is personal and abusive. i refer you to the above and all of your posts in response to me. i ask you to desist for the good of us all.

Rohan

08-26-2006, 10:30 AM

I read the Bible and found it very easy to read.
The bible disn't flow. It is made up of many different stories that many of them have really nothing to do with one another. The bible is not an easy read straight through.

I vote dthat racial profiling is ok. and I think it's ok on it's own merits. The FBI has shown that there is a very specific group making these plans and attacks. Until now anyway because of the new usage of women and kids. But i don't think that it's ok when it comes to general policing as a stand alone. There should be other things that officers are looking at in conjunction witht he race.

Watchman

08-26-2006, 11:01 AM

FAITH UNDER FIRE
Christian convert faces death threats
Former Muslim challenges Islamic government
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 26, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51693

A Malaysian woman who was born a Muslim but converted to Christianity is learning the peril that comes with that decision in a Muslim-controlled society.

WND columnist Michelle Malkin is telling the story of the woman who was born Azlina binti Jailani but changed her name to Lina Joy and was baptized a Catholic in a Kuala Lumpur church.

It parallels in many ways the story of Adbul Rahman of Afghanistan, whose decision to choose Christianity netted him a death sentence, and only the intervention of the highest government authorities under international pressure provided his safety.

Lina Joy wants to marry a Christian man and start a family, but while she converted from Islam in 1990 and was baptized several years later, the government maintains her religious designation as Muslim on her identity card.

That's significant because if she does marry and have children, they could be taken from her under the Islamic religious law which does not allow parents who are "apostate," or in defiance of God, to raise children.

So she is asking the Malaysian government to stop classifying her a Muslim. She says the government has no right to tell her what she should believe.

Malkin noted that even Joy's legal advisor, Malik Imtiaz Sarwar, has faced death threats because of his defense of her case.

The Wall Street Journal yesterday summarized her plight:

"While Muslim-majority Malaysia is considered a largely moderate, modern society, renouncing one's Muslim faith still is considered both sinful and illegal by Islamic authorities – who have gained increasing sway of late. Ms. Joy's apostasy case, now before Malaysia's highest court of appeal, has inflamed public debate, divided the legal community … and threatens to set off political tremors in this Southeast Asian nation of 25 million people."

The circumstance is that before the civil government, which is heavily controlled by Islamic belief, can remove the Muslim designation, it says Joy first must get a decision of the Islamic religious court, a parallel court system in Malaysia, declaring her "apostate."

She is resisting that, because that conclusion would provide the same result for her: a government standing by to take any children she might have.

The court ruling is expected in the coming weeks.

"We are at a crossroad, whether we go down the line of secular constitutionalism or whether that constitution will now be read subject to religious requirement," Benjamin Dawson, one of Joy's lawyers, told the Journal.

A previous court opinion in her case said as long as she is ethnic Malay, she is Muslim, even though the civil constitution in Malaysia guarantees freedom of religion. The court's opinion said that was not freedom of "choice" but a freedom to practice Islam.

A number of groups working with persecuted Christians around the world have noted the loss of right to marry, the loss of the right to work, illegal imprisonment and even torture of Christians, especially those who choose to leave Islam.

An Islamic scholar, Malkin reported, told the Journal why Muslims cannot leave Islam.

"If Islam were to grant permission for Muslims to change religion at will, it would imply it has no dignity, no self-esteem," said Wan Azhar Wan Ahmad, of Malaysia's Institute of Islamic Understanding.

"And then people may question its completeness, truthfulness and perfection," he said.

"Got that?" wrote Malkin. "It's a Religion of Peace of those who submit, and a Religion of Pieces for those who even dare think of leaving."

The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty said the court hearing will focus on whether she does, in fact, need that religious court declaration that she is apostate before the civil court can move.

The Becket Fund said the government's refusal violates customary international law protecting freedom of conscience as expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

It also violates the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, to which Malaysia is legally bound, the Becket Fund said.

The earlier case involving Rahman, who now chooses to be identified as Joel, did have a happy conclusion.

As WND reported, he reached Italy where he was granted asylum after he had been charged with the death sentence under Afghanistan's Islamic law.

International pressure was credited with having prompted Afghan President Hamid Karzai to intervene.

Rahman, or Joel, reportedly converted to Christianity 16 years ago in Germany while working with an international Christian organization. He was charged with crimes carrying the death penalty after he was seen holding a Bible in Afghanistan.

THX1138...

you keep saying that it is only the "radical" faction of Islam that do these things but storys such as these are very common now adays. Are you still inisisting that Muslims in general are peace loving people and that only the extremists in the crowd are following their religion as it says ? Here in this strory alone we have two nations mentioned where it is legal to KILL one for leaving his religion.
I know of no other religion that compares.

Rohan

08-26-2006, 11:36 AM

"If Islam were to grant permission for Muslims to change religion at will, it would imply it has no dignity, no self-esteem," said Wan Azhar Wan Ahmad, of Malaysia's Institute of Islamic Understanding.

"And then people may question its completeness, truthfulness and perfection," he said.

If its such a perfect religion- why do they fear people leaving it? i know this is slightly off topic but if anyof you watch the tv show Stargate the current foe is surprisingly like the Muslims we are facing now. Except that is sci- fictional and takes place in outerspace, but it still is surprisingly similar!

ie- the perfect religion- completeness and truthfulness- convert or die-

I wonder if the show is simply using the space bad guys as replacements meant for this very topic/thread/Islam?

lawhog

08-26-2006, 03:02 PM

and that is exactly the point... by bringing up incidents of aggression or atrocities, however true, in response to any comment or issue regarding islam and muslims, without context and without direct link to the topic at hand is muslim bashing.

How, may I ask, in a thread regarding racial profiling during a time of war to detect possible terrorists prior to them carrying out an attack, would bringing up actual incidents and previous attacks be considered muslim bashing? I will say that these incidents are exactly the reason this thread is on target. And I do not think that he has given you this information without links. I could be wrong and have missed it, but it seems to me that cst.sb does post links and even gave up his main source. Like I said, I have often found what he posts credible as far as being able to look at his sources.

Let me ask you a couple honest questions;
Do you argue that the vast majority of the terror attacks on innocent people around the world since 1995 have been carried out by Arabic males who are between the ages of 17-35?

If you answer yes, would it not stand to reason that the vast majority, if not all, of these Arabic males are of the Islamic religion?

If you answer yes to both questions, would it not be prudent to complete a profile of these very groups to assist in the locating and indentification of terror suspects?

And lastly, have not Muslims claimed responsibilty for some terror attacks and included on occasions statements about killing non-believers and infadels?

Ok, very lastly, is not the group which captured the two Isreali soldiers name something (I do not remember the actual name) like Soldier of the Jihad? And did they produce pamphlets proclaiming something (again I do not remember the exact wording) about those who are non-believers dying?

THX1138

08-26-2006, 03:27 PM

How, may I ask, in a thread regarding racial profiling during a time of war to detect possible terrorists prior to them carrying out an attack, would bringing up actual incidents and previous attacks be considered muslim bashing? I will say that these incidents are exactly the reason this thread is on target. And I do not think that he has given you this information without links. I could be wrong and have missed it, but it seems to me that cst.sb does post links and even gave up his main source. Like I said, I have often found what he posts credible as far as being able to look at his sources.

Actually, I said "without direct link to the topic at hand"; I didn't mean an internet link. You are not listening to what I am saying.

I'm not talking about previous attacks either... i'm talking about references to crimes in muslim countries around the world. painting a picture of a licentious islamic culture where women are raped and beaten without recourse. i can introduce sb to my female relatives in Egypt and see what they would say to him if he mentioned those views!

Also, painting a picture of Islamic hatred and intolerance where non-muslims are so despised that murder is advocated... a sickening interpretation of events. Of course, there are people in the world who condone the murder of "others"... there are muslims who condone it, just as there are christians and jews who condone it. Does that make Islam, Christianity or Judaism inherently evil? NO! it means that human beings do commits evil in the world. People do have hatred in their hearts. none of us are free from sin. if you are christian, then you would agree with me. to attack muslims to me is unchristian... bear in mind i learned about christianity before i knew anything about islam. i could be wrong though.

I wonder what you think about all of the other things I have said in my last response to you, as you have not commented on any of them. Is it so difficult to listen to what I have to say? I would appreciate it if you would give me some idea of your response to what i have said, rather than picking only that which you take issue with and discarding the rest. then, maybe i will understand where you are coming from a little better. As you might understand, it is a little hard for me being bombarded by posts from you guys and only hearing negative comments when i know that i don't talk utter bs! some balance would be nice.

Let me ask you a couple honest questions;
Do you argue that the vast majority of the terror attacks on innocent people around the world since 1995 have been carried out by Arabic males who are between the ages of 17-35?

If you answer yes, would it not stand to reason that the vast majority, if not all, of these Arabic males are of the Islamic religion?

If you answer yes to both questions, would it not be prudent to complete a profile of these very groups to assist in the locating and indentification of terror suspects?

And lastly, have not Muslims claimed responsibilty for some terror attacks and included on occasions statements about killing non-believers and infadels?

Ok, very lastly, is not the group which captured the two Isreali soldiers name something (I do not remember the actual name) like Soldier of the Jihad? And did they produce pamphlets proclaiming something (again I do not remember the exact wording) about those who are non-believers dying?

mmm, yes and no. :rolleyes:
it depends on what you mean by "terror attack"

as for the last two, since when have an extremist minority been spokespeople for a religion? for every time a white christian male commits a crime, shall I say how Christianity and the white race are evil and to blame for all our problems? I think not. Would you?

THX1138

08-26-2006, 03:34 PM

The bible disn't flow. It is made up of many different stories that many of them have really nothing to do with one another. The bible is not an easy read straight through.

When you understand the nature of how it is put together, it is very easy to read. If you constantly expect it to take a form that you are used to, then i agree, it wouldn't flow at all. When i read it, i read it on its own merits, and appreciated the form it takes so that i may read it better.

I vote that racial profiling is ok. and I think it's ok on it's own merits. The FBI has shown that there is a very specific group making these plans and attacks. Until now anyway because of the new usage of women and kids. But i don't think that it's ok when it comes to general policing as a stand alone. There should be other things that officers are looking at in conjunction witht he race.

Fair enough. That is your opinion, and i respect that. The only caveat I have is that I think that, just as you say it should be used in conjunction with other things in general policing, I believe the same is applicable to dealing with the terrorist threat. We have to use the most intelligent methods known to us, regardless of the situation. In the 21st century, for us to revert to the lowest common denominator form of profiling is a major step backwards IMO.

THX1138

08-26-2006, 03:56 PM

THX1138...

you keep saying that it is only the "radical" faction of Islam that do these things but storys such as these are very common now adays. Are you still inisisting that Muslims in general are peace loving people and that only the extremists in the crowd are following their religion as it says ? Here in this strory alone we have two nations mentioned where it is legal to KILL one for leaving his religion.
I know of no other religion that compares.

Yes, I am saying that.

I suggest you read something that might be better for you. WorldNetDaily?

Though I did find it interesting that it mentioned a statistic (elsewhere on the site) that 1/3 of Americans believe that 9-11 was committed by the US government... cst.sb take note. The islamic world does not have a monopoly on kooks, obviously.

Why not read things that are written by muslims? I personally think it is useful to gain all perspectives before making judgement. I know it is difficult, with most muslim discourse taking place in languages other than English, but it can be done.

This is the latest article (http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/imran_khan/2006/08/post_316.html) I read that was written by a muslim. I don't agree with everything he says, but hey, it's better than living in ignorance, as his views are very widely held.

There are liberal movements in all Muslim countries... why not support them rather than making generalised statements about islam and muslims as a whole? Attacking a nation, whether verbally or otherwise, is the surest way to make people entrenched in their views, and to bolster support for ultra-conservative elements in the society. eg. Hizbollah in Lebanon.
or even america post 9-11.

Can we learn our lessons from history?

THX1138

08-26-2006, 04:06 PM

If its such a perfect religion- why do they fear people leaving it?

I don't know.

The koran specifies no compulsion in religion, so these people are despicably going against their own holy book.

i know this is slightly off topic but if anyof you watch the tv show Stargate the current foe is surprisingly like the Muslims we are facing now. Except that is sci- fictional and takes place in outerspace, but it still is surprisingly similar!

Yes, "the Muslims" are your perfect bogeyman for now, so of course you will see parallels in sci-fi which is ultimately about the eternal human struggle between good and evil.

ie- the perfect religion- completeness and truthfulness- convert or die-

convert or die? in Stargate, yes... in the koran, no.

I wonder if the show is simply using the space bad guys as replacements meant for this very topic/thread/Islam?

well, you could see it as liberalism v. conservatism. multiculturalism v racial purity. tolerance v. intolerance. love v. hatred. vs. nazism. vs. communism. etc. etc... who is currently demonised as some LESS THAN HUMAN enemy????? oh, I can guess.

Watchman

08-26-2006, 04:08 PM

WorldNetDaily?

Yeah. Did you know that the man that started it and owns it is Lebanese ?

He has some interesting perspectives on how the Muslims in general feel about the Israelis. Perhaps because he was brought up in Lebanon...he can sort out the real diferences between Muslims and Christians.

lawhog

08-26-2006, 04:34 PM

Not sure why you would have any reason to doubt this. I have no reason to embellish the truth.
Not saying I did not believe you, just a that I do not know that many people who actually have read the Bible throughout. I guess I live by a line from a tv show I once heard, "Doubts, I'm full of them." Maybe to a fault.

Most people do think this... even alot of muslims! Your friend sounds like he's on the money. Not quite sure what you mean by "Americanised lifestyle"... what is that exactly, and how does that differ from say, a British lifestyle? Just curious.
Yusi is was not born here and when he moved in next to me he was quite different then as opposed to today. He and his wife have loosened up, have a couple of very nice cars and a home they added a couple thousand square feet to. They wear the regular clothes Americans wear, jeans t-shirts and such, unlike the traditional dress they wore when they got here. They come to parties and have a few, but only ever a few, drinks and tell jokes. They just live Americanized lifestyles! They act more like my family than the family who moved in a few years ago. I have been to England, not sure I can say I know what and Englishised lifestyle would be either!

If you want to ask me about something, that is a different matter. I am still waiting for the evidence about the apostasy/murder claims, and will gladly look into it, if you can provide it.
My response to your request is to read what he posted on the topic. His quotes and links sum it up for me nicely. At least as far as Muslims and terrorism are concerned. I will go back and read them and see if I can come up with some more concrete answers for you. I have never read the Qur'an nor do I intend to. My God says no God before him, and I think he meant it, so I have no desire to push it! Just kidding, I really have no intention to read it mostly because I have a hard enough time keeping up with reading and study of my own Bible!

I have not tried to not answer you, I am not the best for going back and reading everything that was posted after my last visits. On this thread I will try harder to keep up. Feel free to ask anything, and I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

THX1138

08-26-2006, 05:06 PM

Not saying I did not believe you, just a that I do not know that many people who actually have read the Bible throughout. I guess I live by a line from a tv show I once heard, "Doubts, I'm full of them." Maybe to a fault.

LOL... fair enough :)

Yusi is was not born here and when he moved in next to me he was quite different then as opposed to today. He and his wife have loosened up, have a couple of very nice cars and a home they added a couple thousand square feet to. They wear the regular clothes Americans wear, jeans t-shirts and such, unlike the traditional dress they wore when they got here. They come to parties and have a few, but only ever a few, drinks and tell jokes. They just live Americanized lifestyles! They act more like my family than the family who moved in a few years ago.

Cool... that seems fairly normal. what i don't understand is when people move to a country and settle down there, only to hold on to everything you'd think they've left behind... even down to not really learning the language, not making friends from the native population, keeping your 'national' dress etc. That, to me, is weird, and gives the rest of us a bad name. "When in Rome....."

My response to your request is to read what he posted on the topic. His quotes and links sum it up for me nicely. At least as far as Muslims and terrorism are concerned. I will go back and read them and see if I can come up with some more concrete answers for you. I have never read the Qur'an nor do I intend to. My God says no God before him, and I think he meant it, so I have no desire to push it! Just kidding, I really have no intention to read it mostly because I have a hard enough time keeping up with reading and study of my own Bible!

ok. the problem with cst's quotations is that they are completely out of context. the one about "killing infidels" means nothing of the sort. It is one of many verses in a row which deal with the wartime scenario which the muslims were facing at the time of revelation and define how the muslims should deal with the battle with their enemies. If you are interested, I suggest you read chapter 9, verses 1-6 (not just verse 5), and understand that any reference to polytheists or unbelievers or infidels (in the english interpretation) is in fact referring to the enemy on the battlefield (in arabic in this case - al munafiqun) who at that time had driven muslims from their homes and were killing them with impunity on the battlefield. I think you'd find it fairly reasonable, especially seeing as you have served in the military. it is hardly going to say "go to your enemies with flowers, and don't complain when they stab you in the heart". Also, the reference to prayer and tax in verse five has nothing to do with a jizya/dhimmi (sic) tax for unbelievers as cst.sb claims. In fact, the word in the arabic koran is zakat, which is charity/tax which is equal for both muslims and non-muslims and incumbant on all people who are able to give it in society. ie. in verse 5, it says that if a person respects your prayers and pays his taxes, then he should be free in your society. and remember this was a time of war, yet the koran is saying that you must set your enemies free should they simply respect your prayers (accepting freedom of religion) and pay their taxes (the legal imperative for everyone in society)... nothing to do with converting to islam.

I do find it funny (but not ha-ha funny) that most people who criticise the koran have never read it. Copying and pasting interpretations of the koran often means copying and pasting the prejudices and perspective of the person/people who brought the verse to your attention in the first place (especially since the advent of the internet, which makes the whole process so much easier!)... there is alot to be said for being autodidactic.

I have not tried to not answer you, I am not the best for going back and reading everything that was posted after my last visits. On this thread I will try harder to keep up. Feel free to ask anything, and I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

Thanks :D

THX1138

08-26-2006, 05:16 PM

Yeah. Did you know that the man that started it and owns it is Lebanese ?

so?

He has some interesting perspectives on how the Muslims in general feel about the Israelis. Perhaps because he was brought up in Lebanon...he can sort out the real diferences between Muslims and Christians.

he's a man with an opinion. big deal. so are you and so am i.

it doesn't change the facts which he chooses to ignore in bolstering his point of view. there are people just like him who run websites in arabic, selectively choosing stories to show how barbaric and evil america and israel are... that's what they believe and they pick and choose what they show in order to perpetuate their views. as an audience, i think we should move beyond such simplistic manipulative machinations!

sorry, but i just had to use that word - machinations :D i love it!!!

any comment on my other points? again, some balance would be good here.

did you read the article i posted the link to before making your response? just wondering.

cst.sb

08-26-2006, 10:27 PM

THX,

I have so much to say, and have no idea where to begin. I am sorry that you feel that I Muslim bash by posting things that are in the Qu'ran (and I don't remember posting about infidels, may quote contained the word pagen) and by posting terrorist attacks/killing. The fact of the matter, is these are recorded/historical events, and I hardly believe it is "bashing" to talk about real events.

The reason behind my posting those events, and moments in history, was in response to your constant minimzing, or out denial of these incidents even taking place.

I also find it disturbing, as you sit here defending Islam, that you have little idea of what is going on in the world.

Do you actually read anything other than material that supports your own views?

You tell me that I should talk too your sisters about rape, or women's rights in Egypt, yet you make no effort to respond to my claims about Pakistan?

THX, I don't think you are a terrorist. I even think you are a mean spirited guy. What I do think, is that your, and other moderate Muslims "Islam can do no wrong" attitudes are exactly why extremism is just going to get worse.

It's incumbant on all of us when we hear things within our own communities that are hateful, that we step up to the plate and put a stop to it. My fear with you however, is that you have been so emmersed in your own culture that you wouldn't know extremism if it bite you on the nose. I have come to this conclusion from your claim to have never ever "heard" or "read" of an Iman preaching hate.

Ironically, must of the "hate" preached my extremist Imans, has been recorded by the British press.

I may be a biggot in some peoples eyes for speaking of real life events, without exaggeration or embelishment, but at least I least I can say that I have never lied in a single post, or thread, on o.com. Can you say that?

THX1138

08-26-2006, 10:36 PM

THX1138

08-26-2006, 11:04 PM

cst.sb,

please read post #125... it was my first post on this thread. I think it contradicts the accusations you have made about my stance/beliefs. I know you see yourself as a sayer of truth, and that is admirable. I ask you, then, to read again that which you have taken issue with in my posts, and you will see that your interpretation is a far cry from what i actually said.

I sincerely hope you will do this, as your opinion of me is quite unwarranted... and i also point out to you that you still persist in making personal comments about me, and that is simply not on.

cst.sb

08-27-2006, 03:55 AM

Okay, so here we go.......

having said this, it doesn't mean there aren't nutters out there who are ignorant of the islamic faith and practice wicked customs... the taliban were a sickening stain on islamic history (and continue to be so), and the saudis aren't really doing a good job either. Terrorism, female genital mutilation, forced marriages, anti-semitism, gender inequality... etc. etc. these things do exist. Anti-semitism in particular is rife, and i've always regarded it with utter disdain. But despite the efforts of many to paint a picture of these things being representative of islam and muslims, they simply are not. I am muslim. I read the koran literally. Anyone who wants to say a bad word about me and my faith should come to visit me in london. see how i live. learn what i believe, and you'd be ashamed for thinking what you think about muslims (if you're into crass generalisations). Oh, and i'm not some anomaly... in the UK, especially in my generation, I am quite the norm. I'm happy to hang out with my friends down the pub, with a nice chilled beer - did you know that alcohol is not forbidden in the koran? didn't think so (try and quote me wrong, all you avid koran-knowers). look around the uk, and you'll find lots of people like me... not extreme, just normal, decent, law-abiding people. ok, were not ultra-conservative war-mongers... sorry. you can't have it all your way..

This is where your post should have stopped. There isn't a member here (well I am pretty confident that there isn't a member here) that believes that all Muslims are "terrorists" and as you say, "nutters". I was just on a course and a guy I made instant friends with, and ate dinner every night with, was a Muslim (Iranian) Canada.

I'd like to know why everytime I brought up a legitimate issue you either wouldn't answer, or answered defensively?

americans must hate muslims. judging by these posts, they seem to be right..sad, seeing as these people are the best hope for combating extremism... mainstream, orthodox muslims who genuinely do believe in peace, justice, democracy, equality etc...

I don't think that statement is completely acurate. I think you are mistaking hatred with frustration a mostly silent, or supportive of terrorism, moderate muslim population.

I know that you hate when I post links, but I have paid particular attention statements made by "moderate mosques" and by CAIR USA/CAN, so I won't bother unless you want me. In fact, CAIR ( Council on American-Islamic Relations) has had high profile members arrest and charged with supporting terrorism, and that organization is supposed to be the "voice" of moderate Islam in America.

the majority whose voices are marginalised in your discourse - they are by far the most powerful weapon we have against AQ... better than any military or other weapons. shame that your policies are alienating them in their droves. .

I'm sorry that these people are feeling marginalised, and you are correct that they can and should be the best weapon against terrorism..

Now they just need to step up to the plate and be part of the solution.

here in london, of course profiling is practised to an extent, but right now, the best efforts are being put into making the relationships between disparate communities better, making sure that minority communities feel safe and included, as well as protecting the wider community... and you know what this leads to? collaberation. .

I agree with your statement. Though, people have to WANT to feel included, and studies are showing that is just not the case. What appears to be happening is that immigrants want to maintain a sense of familiarity, and don't want to fully intergrate with British society.

And granted, the British government isn't doing to much to help. For instance, having a Muslim only amusement park day, does nothing to foster understanding of ones culture.

intelligence. little or no fertile ground left for extremists to peddle their lies. judging by what i know (which is admittedly very little in this regard), SIS et al appear to be having much better success in infiltrating terrorist cells than their american counterparts, and we all know how difficult this is to do, so we must be doing something right. maybe the fact that the muslim-haters are marginalised, and the kind of vitriol we've been entertained with on this site simply isn't tolerated in public discourse here in the UK might have something to do with it. we are all on the same side, and ought to act like it..

The problem is that there are to many terrorist cells, too many people with extremist views, that law enforcement is almost always a step or two behind. And once and a while with a bit of luck, and a lot of hard work, we make an arrest.

i hope this has been of interest to some of you. please don't reply with lists and diatribes of all the crimes muslims have committed and how all terrorists are muslim etc. etc. it's boring now, and i won't respond to it, though i'll be happy to discuss what i've mentioned that is relevant to the topic and LE in general.

Well, you should. It may have prevented 100+ posts, my feelings of distrust (not that you care), and would have given you emense crediblity and respect. As it is, all seemed to do was be defensive and dismissive, and we could have had (over three different threads) an important dialogue. Yes, it may have been boring, but at least you would have been respected for it.

What you don't know about me is that I have, and have had, numerous Muslim friends throughout my life. And though, my arguments have seemed almost entirely one sided, they have been that way on purpose.

I am not anti-muslim, I am anti-hate, it's just unfortunate that the largest group of "haters" at this period of time happens to be Muslim... If you want a complete list of the haters I hate, I'll tell you right now, that it includes almost everyone. No group of people is immune.