Shocking footage

[COPS]

Pun intended, did this guy deserve to be tasered while fully restrained? http://video.cgi.cbsnews.com/video/video.pl?url=/media/2005/06/13/video701569.wmv&sid=201&dart=news.video

[Puget Sound]

Absolutely he deserved it. He struggled and he wouldn't comply. If you do that, there's a good chance you'll get tased.

Boohoo, he was black. He could have just as easily been white.

[Sebastian]

That's absolute bull$%#@. He was overpowered, outnumbered, and handcuffed. Why would they taser him. From the video shown in that report, it looks like a bad call. I have a good feeling they didn't show the whole video and edited it to fit their story, but from that tape I was amazed. Shooting him 5 times? What the hell? I'm sorry... :confused:

[7mmMag]

All I can say is wow. Based on what I seen, the guy was fully restrained, why didn't they just dump him in the holding cell, back out, and observe from safety. They had several officers on hand, its not like it was one or two against one. I'm a little bit disturbed to tell the truth. Further, (and yes, I know, this is coming from the media) the guy had no criminal history and seemed to be a good citizen (once again, I KNOW, all we have to go on right now is the media report). I just don't see the reason for the tazer. How would this have been handled if no tazer had been available?

[RU10-35]

You resist, you get tased, cuffed or not. What else should the officers have done? There were many officers present, and if that many officers could not get sufficient control of a combative suspect, there is a problem there that handcuffs will not solve. Step it up a level on the use on force continuum....presence didnt work, verbal didnt work, soft hands didnt work, whats next? Less lethal weapons. IMO, those officers were justified 100%. They just ran out of options in dealing with this guy. If he did indeed have a fatal heart attack, I'd sure like to know what other conditions existed that caused it. I can promise it's not just from being tased. Was he drunk? On drugs? Even if not, he was worked up about someting to a big degree. They said he had an epileptec (sp?) seizure and "accidentally" wounded an officer. Sure, and if I buy that, will you throw the golden gate in for free? Even if he DID in fact have a siezure, what was the reason for the police to contact him to begin with? Also, in the video, the 'lawyer' says something like "what else can any human do when theyre hancuffed but try to get away?" EXCUSE ME.....what is that point of handcuffs?! I do not for one minute believe this guy was as innocent as the press made him out to be. Another case of "Everybody loved little Johnny" after the fact.


Sorry, I'm still new enough to LE to let the press get to me. :mad: :mad:

[RU10-35]

Also, just to add another little tidbit for my previous rant, if he had had a seizure, and then was taken to jail, he has to be checked out by medical before going into a holding cell. If they had just dumped him off in a holding cell (which, granted, would probably have been the wisest choice had the alleged medical condition not existed), he could have hurt himself, or had another siezure. Because he was handcuffed and had leg restraints on, the possibility exists for positional asphyxia, as well as choking on his tounge or vomit should he sieze again. That is another lawsuit waiting to happen for the press to blow out of whack...."Those officers KNEW he had a medical condition and they just left him in there all tied up to die!"

As usual, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

[7mmMag]

Also, just to add another little tidbit for my previous rant, if he had had a seizure, and then was taken to jail, he has to be checked out by medical before going into a holding cell. If they had just dumped him off in a holding cell (which, granted, would probably have been the wisest choice had the alleged medical condition not existed), he could have hurt himself, or had another siezure. Because he was handcuffed and had leg restraints on, the possibility exists for positional asphyxia, as well as choking on his tounge or vomit should he sieze again. That is another lawsuit waiting to happen for the press to blow out of whack...."Those officers KNEW he had a medical condition and they just left him in there all tied up to die!"

As usual, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

What I meant by being dumped in the holding cell is that at that the same time he should have remained under observation. The fact is this: There is now another african american that is deceased while in police custody, while on video the officers (of which there were several) are observed applying a tazer to the man while he is in handcuffs and in what appears to be a holding cell. I'm sorry, public perception is going to rule this, as always, and even my own perception as I watched the video of the incident was that of mild alarm. The tazer in my own opinion is a great tool, when used appropriately. But now its going to take another hit (and a big one).

[masterchief]

i think it is very difficult to judge over a situation when you was not personaly there

i belive that the officers has good reasons for all her doings

and i think a suspect who just dont listen produce a lot of frustration


as i tell before , we all was not there and the officers has to do something


and the officers give the suspect first aid after the incident , nobody mention that



masterchief

[masterchief]

@ ru 10-35

As usual, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.



this is just the point


regards
masterchief

[Upstate]

Why Taze the guy? The guy was cuffed inside a cell, so what if he resists? Let him. Have the 5 cops back out of the cell and leave him. (monitored of course) Our Dept doesn't carry Tazers and that's what we would have done. What purpose does it serve tazering him? Bad call.

[7mmMag]

You resist, you get tased, cuffed or not. What else should the officers have done? There were many officers present, and if that many officers could not get sufficient control of a combative suspect, there is a problem there that handcuffs will not solve. Step it up a level on the use on force continuum....presence didnt work, verbal didnt work, soft hands didnt work, whats next? Less lethal weapons. IMO, those officers were justified 100%. They just ran out of options in dealing with this guy. If he did indeed have a fatal heart attack, I'd sure like to know what other conditions existed that caused it. I can promise it's not just from being tased. Was he drunk? On drugs? Even if not, he was worked up about someting to a big degree. They said he had an epileptec (sp?) seizure and "accidentally" wounded an officer. Sure, and if I buy that, will you throw the golden gate in for free? Even if he DID in fact have a siezure, what was the reason for the police to contact him to begin with? Also, in the video, the 'lawyer' says something like "what else can any human do when theyre hancuffed but try to get away?" EXCUSE ME.....what is that point of handcuffs?! I do not for one minute believe this guy was as innocent as the press made him out to be. Another case of "Everybody loved little Johnny" after the fact.


Sorry, I'm still new enough to LE to let the press get to me. :mad: :mad:

The force continuum in my state is gone, now replaced with the Disturbance Resolution model. And while the tazer has not been placed in the DR model yet, those I have talked to about it (mainly Defense and Arrest Tactics Instructors) have advised it will likely be placed in the area of Empty Hand Control-Incapacitating Techniques. This is: To cause the immediate, temporary cessation of violent behavior. What is this guy doing? He's handcuffed behind the back and what, thrashing around, so what, let him thrash, in that condition the proper application of restraints would eventually wear him down.

Read also, from a recent Tazer recomendations memo from my state's training and standards board:

Revise the Disturbance Resolution Model and basic law enforcement training to include recognition of and response to medically significant behavior.
Note: Excited delirium is a medical phenomenon that has only recently been recognized as a cause of death for subjects in police custody. It is also significant because it is very likely a substantial contributor to deaths of people against whom a TASER has been employed.

Medically significant behavior, such as excited delirium, poses a difficult challenge for law enforcement officers because the distinction between purely criminal behavior and behavioral illness with criminal features can be difficult to make. Yet the differentiation between them is critical, because subjects with medically significant behavior need medical help, especially if the underlying condition is imminently life-threatening.

[Puget Sound]

You are all missing an important point. Whether he is in handcuffs and leg irons or not, he is STILL a danger to the officers and to himself! They applied the taser to get him to comply and stop resisting! His resistance was an officer safety issue and also a safety issue to him. He could have been in a straight jacket and he still would be a danger! I don't see how you all think just because someone is in handcuffs and leg irons means that the danger is eliminated. Wake up, people! I'm not even a cop and I know this.

[7mmMag]

You are all missing an important point. Whether he is in handcuffs and leg irons or not, he is STILL a danger to the officers and to himself! They applied the taser to get him to comply and stop resisting! His resistance was an officer safety issue and also a safety issue to him. He could have been in a straight jacket and he still would be a danger! I don't see how you all think just because someone is in handcuffs and leg irons means that the danger is eliminated. Wake up, people! I'm not even a cop and I know this.

Personally sir, I think your missing the point. Fact is, everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, as usual.

[Bowles]

[SIZE=3]First you have to consider the source for this video CBS news.
Second, there just isn

[Pedro56]

Well, I have seen guys that are cuffed take out other officers. One guy was cuffed and shackled and it took 4 officers to restrain him. The fact that they are brining race into effect is bs in the first place. They say that whatever percent of people being tazed are of african american decent. They never mention what the racial makeup of where this happened is. I get accused of racially profiling all the time, yet I work in a district in the city where the make up is all african american. The tazer is a wonderful tool, and it has been proven to bring officers on duty injuries down. But like Bowles said we dont see the whole tape, and probably never will. We don't know if he had the epilectic seizure while fighting with the police or what. I think they did the right thing.

[fed132]

After watching this video 3 times, I agree, that this suspect was probably having a seizure while being stunned, at least during one episode of being stunned. To the untrained, non-medical personnel this may appear to be active resistance, when in fact it is a seizure. If you are an epileptic, startling things, such as bright lights, loud sounds and ,yes, electricity can be a trigger for seizures. There probably was another reason he died, rather than because the acutal stun gun caused it. It was probably because he seized, which in turn results in hypoxia(lack of oxygen), which in turn results in cardiopulmonary arrest(heart attack). Just a logical deduction after watching the video and spending 10 years riding an ambulance in an urban setting and dealing with probably thousands of seizures(real and psuedo).

[TheMP5guy]

1. It's Taser not Tazer

2. Tasers do not bring on heart attacks. The voltage is not the key its the amps which is extremely low (0.004 amps). A taser has 50,000 volts and guess what, getting a shock off a door handle gives you between 35,000 to 100,000 volts.

3. I like how they say he assaulted an officer because he was having a seizure. Are they suggesting his arms were uncontrolable and he accidentlly hit police? Bull****.

4. He had no criminal record; he was a deacon, so what. It is an edited news report. On that given day I'll bet my paycheck he was acting like all the ****heads we deal with on the streets.

[fed132]

If you have seen many seizures, you would notice that in the episode near the end of the clip, when he is being stunned, his eyes are closed and his face is expressionless, yet he has active movement, in a manner consistent with having a grand mal seizure. Therefore, he is either unresponsive and the officers are causing the movement or he is having a seizure. I would much rather go under the presumption that he is having a seizure rather than the officers stunned an unresponsive individual.

[Max Fischer]

I wasn't there, but looking at the video, I have to say it was disappointing... I agree with fed, and I have been an EMT for ten years, that guy was OUT while getting the shock. Come on. He was at the bottom of a polyester pileup, getting worked. Also, after he 'stopped resisting' AKA started dying, it sure looked like it took a while for anyone to start working on him. He should have been coded right away, IMHO.

To be fair, the assault against the officer while having a seizure sounds like total bull****. People having seizure behavior have tonic/clonic type activity usually, and I have never seen anyone purposely hit someone while seizing.

Anyway, my test on this issue is this. If that were MY brother in that chair getting lit up, how would I take it? Ask yourself that. And that many people in there, I TOTALLY agree with others that that would have been a great time for a tactical retreat, and give the guy a timeout.

Just my opinion, I respect and value other views, but that is how I saw it. I don't think anyone intended to kill this guy, but sometimes as humans we get caught up in the action

[jerrymaccauley]

More than likely, even without being tasered, the guy was gonna die. Either from the stress of the fight, drug psychosis or some medical defect. I remember when pepper spray was blamed for several deaths. Then came positional asphyxia. Now tasers are the culprit. If they would just bring back the neck restraints......

[connor]

How can anyone realistically make a decsion on this watching snippets of a video clearly edited to try and make it look like police brutality.

Show me the whole video and then I'll make an opinion. NO ONE can have a valid opinion on this without seeing the whole thing.

[OFK]

You are all missing an important point. Whether he is in handcuffs and leg irons or not, he is STILL a danger to the officers and to himself! They applied the taser to get him to comply and stop resisting! His resistance was an officer safety issue and also a safety issue to him. He could have been in a straight jacket and he still would be a danger! I don't see how you all think just because someone is in handcuffs and leg irons means that the danger is eliminated. Wake up, people! I'm not even a cop and I know this.

"According to police reports, Williams' family said he refused to take his epilepsy medication and was acting violent and irrational.

Williams got into an altercation with the first officer arriving on the scene, Gwinnett police Officer R.E. Kenyon. According to an incident report, Williams charged the officer and grabbed his baton as Kenyon tried to strike him. The two struggled over the baton and Kenyon lost his balance, falling to the ground, bloodying his nose.

Kenyon called for backup over his police radio. Several officers arrived and tackled and subdued Williams.

He was taken to the jail, where deputies were alerted that they had a "delta," Gwinnett law enforcement slang meaning a combative inmate. "

They were trying to get him out of the cuffs and in a restraining chair that is used in these situations. In order to do that, he needed to pipe down and shut up. He was a danger to himself and especially the cops, restrained or not, he could still cause a great deal of harm. He had already demonstrated his disregard, so they did what they had to to get the situation under control. It worked.

[OFK]

How can anyone realistically make a decsion on this watching snippets of a video clearly edited to try and make it look like police brutality.

Show me the whole video and then I'll make an opinion. NO ONE can have a valid opinion on this without seeing the whole thing.


Ahhhh another Foamy Worshipper! And yes, only a snippet will not cut it for me either, but just a simple search can give you the whole picture pretty quick.

[AggiePhil]

That's about the worst quality video I've ever seen. Anybody have a better version of it? :rolleyes:

[ptcop531]

[QUOTE=Bowles][SIZE=3]First you have to consider the source for this video CBS news.
Second, there just isn

[haus409]

How can anyone realistically make a decsion on this watching snippets of a video clearly edited to try and make it look like police brutality.

Show me the whole video and then I'll make an opinion. NO ONE can have a valid opinion on this without seeing the whole thing.

I agree. Only watching the video in the report and not doing any research on the incident, I can't make any opinion on this.

EXCEPT, at which point does racism get turned around? I mean, just because I'm white and I give a black man a ticket, I'm automatically labelled as a racist. As far as I'm concerned when blacks automatically think that someone is racist because they are white, they are the real racists.

Its ridiculous and really old that this incident got turned into a racial thing.

[gotthblues]

how many of you have arrested someone that has faked a seizure, heart attack, or whatever, when they get arrested. I need more fingers to count them all up. He may have had a seizure, but i am not a doctor or nurse. so how do you make the determination. after you get your butt kicked. i am sorry, but i want to go home at night, my philosophy, better play it safe. hell, most of our local jail breaks are from guys faking sickness.

[fed132]

This is a pretty good story on the event and some info on the personnel involved. It is from the Atlanta-Constitution Journal. I have searched but can't find the entire video.

In the case of Frederick Williams, though, that trademark Porter aggressiveness has been nowhere in sight.

Williams, who had suffered epilepsy since a toddler, suffered a psychotic breakdown a year ago, was arrested after a struggle and taken to the Gwinnett County Jail. In a bizarre chain of events, Williams died of a heart attack after he was hit with a Taser stun gun five times in 43 seconds, even though at the time he was handcuffed behind his back, his legs were bound to a chair restraint and he was pinned down by a half-dozen officers.

Initially, Porter promised Williams' family a grand jury inquiry, a pledge he proved reluctant to keep. Almost a year later, when Porter finally did convene a grand jury, he did not seek indictments, nor did he bother to show the grand jury a videotape of the deadly incident taken by a sheriff's deputy. Instead, he says, he asked jurors whether they wanted to open an inquiry into the jail's policy regarding Taser use, and they declined.

That decision not to show jurors the videotape has drawn considerable criticism. However, documents obtained through the state Open Records Act suggest there's a lot of other interesting evidence they never saw either.

For example, grand jurors apparently never saw the videotaped questioning of Sgt. Michael Mustachio, the jail officer who made the decision to "hit" Williams with five blasts from a hand-held Taser stun gun. In an interview conducted by detectives with the Gwinnett County Police Department, Mustachio explained why he chose to use the Taser on a fully restrained Williams.

At the time, officers were trying to wrestle Williams into a restraining chair. According to Mustachio, "He was arching his back up, kinda like a kid who you're trying to put in a car seat

[Max Fischer]

Mustachio seems like a real stand-up guy........ :rolleyes:

I don't see this as a race issue, but rather a poor use of force kind of deal. I wasn't there, and I am far from an expert, but I think that with those kind of restraints and manpower, they had it under control. I really can't imagine that anyone here would do the same exact thing in this situation?

On the bright side, this guys family will be the states newest millionaires when they sue and settle.

[RU10-35]

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had a Taser not been available. This guy was so worked up that he could have aggaravated his epilepsy all on his own. That can happen when one "suffers a psychotic episode". :rolleyes:

Oh well. It is what it is.

[Brav989]

Pun intended, did this guy deserve to be tasered while fully restrained? http://video.cgi.cbsnews.com/video/video.pl?url=/media/2005/06/13/video701569.wmv&sid=201&dart=news.video

Not really sure how much damage he could have done with 10 officers on him while he's handcuffed? :confused: :confused: Also maybe they should have not allowed a video camera to follow them.

[SWATdude170]

WTF!? He was in handcuffs,he couldnt harm the officer by shaking and bucking,the least he could do was spit on them,which would probably never happen.and the stun gun issue,it is a non leathal weapon,but maybe if you have a weak heart,the shock could scare you enough so badly,you could get a heart attack.And the race issue?BS,but this case is race related.No disrespect to officers,youre all my heroes!I want to say more,but for the time being,i think is shouldnt.

[SWATdude170]

haus 409,i gotta agree with you there anytime a white officer does something that ****es off the black dude even a little bit,it gets turned into a race issue.I am not trying to be rascist here,just my opinon

[Stan Switek]

That's absolute bull$%#@. He was overpowered, outnumbered, and handcuffed. Why would they taser him. From the video shown in that report, it looks like a bad call. I have a good feeling they didn't show the whole video and edited it to fit their story, but from that tape I was amazed. Shooting him 5 times? What the hell? I'm sorry... :confused:

Spoken like one with zero law enforcement experience.

[Stan Switek]

WTF!? He was in handcuffs,he couldnt harm the officer by shaking and bucking,the least he could do was spit on them,which would probably never happen.and the stun gun issue,it is a non leathal weapon,but maybe if you have a weak heart,the shock could scare you enough so badly,you could get a heart attack.And the race issue?BS,but this case is race related.No disrespect to officers,youre all my heroes!I want to say more,but for the time being,i think is shouldnt.

How many combative people have you subdued in your career? A person can still kill you even when cuffed. The suspect always has the option to not resist.

[COPS]

But can he kill you with 5 other officers on him? I'm not saying this is a racist tape, he could be white and I would still have posted it, but my question was did he deserve to be tasered five times to just sit him in a chair?

[RU10-35]

"But can he kill you with 5 other officers on him?"

Let me ask you this.....put yourself in the place of one of those officers. Would you be willing to *wait* to see "can he kill me with 5 other officers on him?"

One thing about law enforcement that never ends is the "what if" game......"But can he kill you with 5 other officers on him?"

What if he can.

Just my humble opinion :cool:

[TheMP5guy]

But can he kill you with 5 other officers on him? I'm not saying this is a racist tape, he could be white and I would still have posted it, but my question was did he deserve to be tasered five times to just sit him in a chair?

Have you ever been tasered? I have through trainning and being qualified as an instructor. I was hooked up to the wires which is much more effective and painfull than the drive stun (which is what he got). So answer me this non LEO experts, what warrants a person to be tasered? (To LEO personnel :
We should get a laugh out of some of the responses).

As far as the EMS guys go, I would find it very difficult to go on a EMS fourm and critisize your actions when I don't know anything about your job.

Oh, to answer the above question - yes.

[AMG]

Race has nothing to do with this, But lets consider everything that happened. The guy refused to take his meds which led to him having a siezure.....B4 or after he was tazed........next they handcuffed his arms behind his back and leg irons........how did they put all that on him without tazing him then to get him to calm down and put him in the car. How far did he live from the police station...I guess he was calm all the way down to the station and then decided to go crazy while they was dragging him in the holding unit. He made a comment "dont kill me" .........During the drive from his home to the station one would suggest he was told he was gonna pay for what he did to the other officer in result prompting him to make the comment he made. Now all of a sudden while he is in cuffs and being held down OFFICER M decides this guy is endangering my teammates, he needs to be tazed. How did the officer know he hit him 5 times (i didnt see any trigger action). Regardless of the dog killing report someone posted. I feel OFFICER M performed what he believed the best judgement call was to do. Like I stated this is not a race issue, look at the other black officers who was included on the tape, they didnt stop and say "OFFICER M, YOU DID THAT BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK". No the guy was unhealthy he already had health problems so the taser didnt kill him. Go back and take a look at this guy history and how he acted in high school and dont go by his actions serving as a deacon in the church-people fear god and will not act up in church!

[Iceman1981]

I can't believe some of the replies from some of you officers. In tasers new policy it says a person can not and should not be tased while the person is handcuffed.

[Max Fischer]

".....Let's get ready to rumble................"

[The Joker]

I'm not even a cop and I know this.

Thank God you aren't a cop. By some of your comments I hope you never are one.

[The Joker]

I can't believe some of the replies from some of you officers. In tasers new policy it says a person can not and should not be tased while the person is handcuffed.

True and correct. I think some of the idiots who post here are plants from ******** just to stir up the ****.

[Creeker]

I just want to remind everyone that the video came from "See, B. S. "

[TheMP5guy]

I can't believe some of the replies from some of you officers. In tasers new policy it says a person can not and should not be tased while the person is handcuffed.

That is Taser International's recommendation. It is not departmental policies or law.Under perfect circumstances, a person should not be tasered in cuffs. There are circumstances where it is justified however. I'll give you a "what if" question Iceman:

What if you handcuff a martial arts expert who could kick your *** with leg strikes. He starts to turn on you. Will you follow Taser's recommendation?

[AggiePhil]

What if you handcuff a martial arts expert who could kick your *** with leg strikes. He starts to turn on you. Will you follow Taser's recommendation?
This is exactly the kind of "outside the box" thinking that should be done more often. Every rule has an exception.

[Max Fischer]

No way. I would bust out the 'Crane' from karate kid, and kick some *** 'Daniel-san' style!!!!!! My theme song will be , "Everybody was kung-fu fighting!' :rolleyes:

[Dixie05]

Well in defense of LE several years back in a small city in SWTN a W/M Stabbed his Wife 9times in a domestic viloence dispute,she was able to get out before he killed her,the local police arrived suspect barricaed himself in the house after several hours of negoiations going nowhere.The Police stormed the Residence with K9 unit even a Fire Truck with a Waterhose could not stop him,The suspect would not surrender and was beaten to death by officers,as alleged by the parents of the suspect,The Grand jury would not indict the officers,nor would the District Attorney even a Judge threw out a multimillon dollar lawsuit,I truly beleive the out come would have been different if a Taser was used in this particular Case,Iam sorry this B/M died but never resist a LEO or you will deserve whats coming Taser or not.......

[MP Teamleader]

:eek: I'm staying out of this one.

[Pops]

Sure it looks bad. Things aren't always as they seem. I wasn't there, but my inclination is to side with the officers without more detailed info. In addition, I am a firm believer that the taser does not cause heart attacks (even being drive stunned). If it's found to be a persecution or racial issue (with a fair investigation) then the officers should be severely punished. I do not, however, think it should be tried in the media. :eek:

[Explorer Dave]

This type of thing ****es me off. When ever a cop lays a finger on a black person, groups like the one in the video pulls out the freakin race card...its ludacris. Did they ever stop to consider that the guy maybe, just maybe was resisting or endangering the officers' safety and that maybe, just maybe the officers only did what they did BECAUSE of the actions of the deceased persons actions? If it was a white guy who was dead and the officer with the taser was black, it would be unfortunate but no one would suggest that the man was tortured by the officers because he was white. AMG makes a great point. there were black officers on the scene and they sertainly wernt jumping in to save the guy from "the man." The officer did what he felt was needed to control a actively resisting man and any other accusations are completely baseless. oy vey, im finished.

[TheMP5guy]

True and correct. I think some of the idiots who post here are plants from ******** just to stir up the ****.

True and correct what? You being on the job, do not think a taser should ever be deployed on someone who is cuffed?

[SO535]

That is my department. The local media has put a horrible spin on this and even flat out made some stuff up. They say nothing of what happened before he arrived at the detention center. They say nothing about the 911 tape where people are screaming for help. They say nothing about this individual attacking officers at the scene. The only thing we could do at the point shown on the video is put him in a restraint chair to keep him from attacking staff members. The video shows two deputies on each arm in an attemt to get them in the restraints when he is receiving the "drive stun."

The best fighters in the world only fight for a few minutes at a time with a break between rounds. This guy had been fighting several deputies and a few pd officers for a period of well over 30 min.

They were not fighting and tasering him because he was black. They were acting in defense of their personal safety as well as the security of the detention center. They acted as they did because this guy was hell bent on assaulting law enforcement officers and others.

[Bart]

Absolutely he deserved it. He struggled and he wouldn't comply. If you do that, there's a good chance you'll get tased.

Boohoo, he was black. He could have just as easily been white.

the suspect may have deserved to get tasered. however, that doesnt mean its justified. ive read what you wrote in the other thread about a woman getting tased. you seem to think youre an expert on the use of tasers and when theyre justified for use yet you have zero LE experience. :rolleyes:

the truth is, nobody here (with the exception of the guy who works with the cops in question) really knows if they were justified or not. it all depends on what the department policy allows. if the policy says handcuffed prisoners arent supposed to be tased, then theyre in the wrong. if the policy allows for taser use on handcuffed prisoners, then theyre in the right. unless their actions are morally wrong, i.e. hitting a 3 year old with the taser, dept policy is what determines whether there is justification or not.

[Creeker]

Yeah, I get the stilted picture but fine audio, too... can't make out who is doing what in the jail video... bad site? dunno, but definitely See, B. S. .

You know, anytime blacks scream "Racism" I think they are right. They always have a black lawyer screaming it!!

[TheMP5guy]

the suspect may have deserved to get tasered. however, that doesnt mean its justified. ive read what you wrote in the other thread about a woman getting tased. you seem to think youre an expert on the use of tasers and when theyre justified for use yet you have zero LE experience. :rolleyes:

the truth is, nobody here (with the exception of the guy who works with the cops in question) really knows if they were justified or not. it all depends on what the department policy allows. if the policy says handcuffed prisoners arent supposed to be tased, then theyre in the wrong. if the policy allows for taser use on handcuffed prisoners, then theyre in the right. unless their actions are morally wrong, i.e. hitting a 3 year old with the taser, dept policy is what determines whether there is justification or not.

I'm sorry, but policy goes out the window when **** is hitting the fan. The people who wrote the policy are not in the situation with me. As for being right or wrong because policy says so, a wise instructor told me "never say never and never say always".

[Puget Sound]

the suspect may have deserved to get tasered. however, that doesnt mean its justified. ive read what you wrote in the other thread about a woman getting tased. you seem to think youre an expert on the use of tasers and when theyre justified for use yet you have zero LE experience. :rolleyes:

the truth is, nobody here (with the exception of the guy who works with the cops in question) really knows if they were justified or not. it all depends on what the department policy allows. if the policy says handcuffed prisoners arent supposed to be tased, then theyre in the wrong. if the policy allows for taser use on handcuffed prisoners, then theyre in the right. unless their actions are morally wrong, i.e. hitting a 3 year old with the taser, dept policy is what determines whether there is justification or not.
Yeah Bart, you're right. You know everything about me.

I'm not a police officer and have never claimed to be. However, I have received the EXACT SAME Taser training as my local police department. So, I am actually well acquainted with how the Taser is used around here.

But thanks for your opinion, Sarge. :rolleyes:

[Bart]

I'm sorry, but policy goes out the window when **** is hitting the fan. The people who wrote the policy are not in the situation with me. As for being right or wrong because policy says so, a wise instructor told me "never say never and never say always".

in this particular situation, youd be hard pressed to articulate that your were in a situation where you could lose your life. unless the inmate broke the chains on the cuffs, it would be hard to believe that you couldve died at the moment in question. if its life or death, policy goes out the window. that wasnt the case here.

[Bart]

Yeah Bart, you're right. You know everything about me.

I'm not a police officer and have never claimed to be. However, I have received the EXACT SAME Taser training as my local police department. So, I am actually well acquainted with how the Taser is used around here.

But thanks for your opinion, Sarge. :rolleyes:

being trained and actually applying the taser in real life situations is not the same thing. you can train all you want, but im the one who has practical knowledge.

that being said, you damn well better thank me for my opinion and every other cop in this forum for that matter because when it comes to these situations, we know a helluva lot more than you will ever know. :cool:

[TheMP5guy]

in this particular situation, youd be hard pressed to articulate that your were in a situation where you could lose your life. unless the inmate broke the chains on the cuffs, it would be hard to believe that you couldve died at the moment in question. if its life or death, policy goes out the window. that wasnt the case here.

Actually I wasn't talking about losing a life in this situation. If that were the case, the handgun is used. Taser is used upon active resistance or assultive behaviour, which I could articulate in this case.

[Bart]

Actually I wasn't talking about losing a life in this situation. If that were the case, the handgun is used. Taser is used upon active resistance or assultive behaviour, which I could articulate in this case.

well, i may be splitting hairs here but you said that "policy goes out the window when ***** is hitting the fan." if a handcuffed prisoner who resists is your idea of ***** hitting the fan, id hate to see how you'd react when faced with a robbery in progress with multiple assailants. a handcuffed prisoner giving me a hard time is the least of my worries. it certainly isnt my idea of ***** hitting the fan.

[Puget Sound]

being trained and actually applying the taser in real life situations is not the same thing. you can train all you want, but im the one who has practical knowledge.

that being said, you damn well better thank me for my opinion and every other cop in this forum for that matter because when it comes to these situations, we know a helluva lot more than you will ever know. :cool:
I'm sorry Bart, but yet again you speak too soon. I carry an Advanced Taser with me every day I'm on duty. You don't know the types of situations I encounter, you don't know how many times I've drawn it or if I have, you don't know how many people I have tased or not.

No, I'm not a police officer. But other than that, you know almost nothing about me. Your assumptions are foolish and very often incorrect.

Bart, I respect your profession deeply. But saying that I damn well better thank you for your opinion just because you're a police officer shows exactly how pompous, arrogant, and badge-heavy you really are. Like I said, I respect your profession, I respect a lot of police officers on this forum, but I have VERY LITTLE respect for you as an individual.

[TheMP5guy]

id hate to see how you'd react when faced with a robbery in progress with multiple assailants.

I'll explain: When **** is hitting the fan on a physical stand point - taser
When an armed robbery is in progress - gun.

[AMG]

that was a good one, MP5

[Bart]

I'll explain: When **** is hitting the fan on a physical stand point - taser


well, maybe its just perception. a guy in handcuffs who decides to get stupid isnt my idea of ***** hitting the fan. if he didnt have cuffs on, maybe. :cool:

[Bart]

I'm sorry Bart, but yet again you speak too soon. I carry an Advanced Taser with me every day I'm on duty. You don't know the types of situations I encounter, you don't know how many times I've drawn it or if I have, you don't know how many people I have tased or not.


id love for you to taser me. based on your responses, im willing to bet you have no clue as to when youre justified to use it an when youre not. im pretty damn sure id own the company you work for after i sue the crap out of them.

[kbclawdog]

Absolutely he deserved it. He struggled and he wouldn't comply. If you do that, there's a good chance you'll get tased.

Boohoo, he was black. He could have just as easily been white.

You say you want to be the Po Po. How and where do you form your opinions? Are you saying that dumb sh$t to make friends in here or do you actually believe that Garbage you wrote?

Like someone else said, the man was clearly out numbered and was handcuffed behind his back. I don

[Puget Sound]

id love for you to taser me. based on your responses, im willing to bet you have no clue as to when youre justified to use it an when youre not. im pretty damn sure id own the company you work for after i sue the crap out of them.
Yet another arrogant statement. Imagine my shock. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=kbclawdog]You say you want to be the Po Po. How and where do you form your opinions? Are you saying that dumb sh$t to make friends in here or do you actually believe that Garbage you wrote?

Like someone else said, the man was clearly out numbered and was handcuffed behind his back. I don

[kbclawdog]

Sir, I have nothing to say except to direct you to this statement:

Do you think you know better than him?

That statement is not consistent with the video. I don

[kingsman]

Medical conditions can create a frightening scenario.

My brother in law was an EMT and worked regularly with teh police and local hospital. He is also a diabetic. One day he had a bad reaction to some over the counter cold medicine that reacted with his insulin.

He basically lost his marbles for a few hours. He fought with his best friend because he thought the guy was trying to kill him for bringing him to the hospital. He fought with the officers trying to get him inot the hospital, with the medical techs whom he knew, with teh nurses and with the doctor.

When he came out of the condition, he didn't remember any of it. So if the LEO's knew he had not had his medication, was combative, and acting in an irrational manner, maybe they should have thought about a medical condition and thought hospital, not jail cell.

Maybe they were not aware and are not at fault. But I hope all who read this will keep it in mind from now on. There may be a medical reason why the suspect is not able to comply.

[HCSO511]

i hate anyone using the race card for anything that is just an officer doing what is necesary, but this guy was fully restrained. there are adequate people there to handle this man even if he wasnt restrained. if we got one like that and he was as combative as they said we wouldve drug him into a holding cell just like he was and let him chill out. no law says you must book and fingerprint before they can be jailed. had he been an active threat uncuffed swinging at officers or holding a chair or something i could see this response but there wasnt any reason to taze this guy unless the video isnt showing all the facts which is entirely possible. why wouldnt the attorney have shown it otherwise. lord knows the media stwists things to suit their antipolice standpoint. if this video was all there was to it then i sure am glad i wasnt there. if not id like for them now tell the whole story.

[HCSO511]

That is my department. The local media has put a horrible spin on this and even flat out made some stuff up. They say nothing of what happened before he arrived at the detention center. They say nothing about the 911 tape where people are screaming for help. They say nothing about this individual attacking officers at the scene. The only thing we could do at the point shown on the video is put him in a restraint chair to keep him from attacking staff members. The video shows two deputies on each arm in an attemt to get them in the restraints when he is receiving the "drive stun."

The best fighters in the world only fight for a few minutes at a time with a break between rounds. This guy had been fighting several deputies and a few pd officers for a period of well over 30 min.

They were not fighting and tasering him because he was black. They were acting in defense of their personal safety as well as the security of the detention center. They acted as they did because this guy was hell bent on assaulting law enforcement officers and others.

just as i figured.

i wish we could omit what we wanted from cases and make them sound like somthing better than they are. why im so creative i could turn a suspended license into homicide if youd give me a day or two to play with the video and facts.

[jerrymaccauley]

What many of you who are not well versed in the TASER need to understand is this: The drive stun mode creates pain compliance. Basically it hurts like hell and will cause you to either jump away or fight like hell to stop the pain, or comply. The actual deployment of the probes will cause incapacitation, which would be less harmful to all involved, regardless of mental state, drugs or, just plain focused anger. What ends up making us look bad is improper use and making the confrontation last longer than necessary.

[Centurion44]

I used to work for that agency. They did nothing that violated policy or the law. Before the taser, had he been that beligerent while being put in the restraint chair, he probably would have been struck, pepper sprayed, or both. All alternatives potentially more lethal than a taser, IMO.

You look at many of these other instances of taser use by police agencies on the street and the alternative is often the same: Either hard impact weapons or lethal force.

Most of these "Taser Deaths" you see in the media leave out one thing: It's never the taser alone that contributes to the person's death. There are other factors involved such as drugs use/abuse (both legal and illegal), medical conditions, positional asphyxia, or any combination thereof.

The fact is had the subject been compliant from the start, that wouldn't have happened. Every incident like you saw on the video in that jail is video taped to make sure that everyone acts within policy and the the level of force used was justified.

If anyone things they acted beligerently, I would love to hear what they would have done as an alternative. Strapping someone who is realatively weak and out of shape into one of those chairs is a workout. From what I could see this guy had muscle on him. It's not as easy as you think.

[Mrs. J21]

From the tiny snipet of footage there, he didn't appear as if he needed tazed...at least not 5 times. But they didn't go in depth in the story to tell what led up to that point. He may have shot 5 people. WITHOUT knowing the whole story from a point of view other than the media who's to say if he deserved it or not.

Not to say there their aren't people out there who aren't uncontrollable , BUT a good officer can speak to a person and take care of a situation without the use of pepper sprays, tazers and batons. I realize there is exceptions to that but for the most part there is no reason for a an officer to use force with a little time and your head on straight you should be able to control the individual and yourself.

[ptcop531]

Again, we were not there, but sometimes verbal skills do not work......

especially with those who are incoherrent for whatever cause..

[haus409]

BUT a good officer can speak to a person and take care of a situation without the use of pepper sprays, tazers and batons

Many times this is true, but to use this as a universal statement is ludicrous. I agree with the last post, we were not there, and the video footage is very limited.

[TheMP5guy]

Try to reason with a mentally ill or drug induced person and tell me about your results.

[Centurion44]

a good officer can speak to a person and take care of a situation without the use of pepper sprays, tazers and batons.

Crap! I didn't think of that. I'll go tell the Sheriff.

That was Gwinnett County jail, my friend. On a slow night they average about 90 inmates coming through that door PER SHIFT. You don't think they don't know what they're doing?

I don't expect the leftist media to show the whole tape, it's not sensational enough. But every beligerent person that comes through those doors is showed the taser. They are told what it is and how it works. They are told that if they do not follow the deputies' instructions they may be tased. Then, and only then, are they brought in.

WHen I worked that area there was many times when the emotions between the inmate and the officer are still running high. I will explain to the inmate that what happened on the street stays on the street. He's in my house now and the only thing he need worry about is how to get out and that it is in everyone's best interest that he follow my instructions.

GCSO is a good dept. They are, quite frankly, too busy to abuse anyone as many inmates as they get every night. And being a former deputy there, I won't allow anyone to say other wise in front of me.

[Creeker]

From the tiny snipet of footage there, he didn't appear as if he needed tazed...at least not 5 times. But they didn't go in depth in the story to tell what led up to that point. He may have shot 5 people. WITHOUT knowing the whole story from a point of view other than the media who's to say if he deserved it or not.

...

Deserved it? We bring people to the Bar of Justice, we don't pass judgement. Please contemplate that the next time you hear some one claim that Cops go looking for people to shoot.

I wasn't there, have no Dog in this fight. I am only highly suspect when the media gets involved with trying and convicting Cops in the Court of Public Opinion, just as they did with Rodney King.

[Centurion44]

The media does that every day, my friend.

[TPD Cadet]

I wasn't there, and I don't really trust anything other than raw footage, So I won't give an oppinion. But that is why out PD has a policy stating no-one gets tazed in cuffs.

[SO535]

I wasn't there, and I don't really trust anything other than raw footage, So I won't give an oppinion. But that is why out PD has a policy stating no-one gets tazed in cuffs.

Just to make things more clear. I understand that there is no reason to utilize the Taser on an inmate who is cuffed. That video clip shows when we are transitioning from having the inmate cuffed behind him to cufing him into the restraint chair. You can see his arms tucked into his chest as he is receiving the "drive stun." Now with his hands in that position it's obvious he is not cuffed behind his back. In our restraint chairs the cuffs/arm restraints are down at the side. Much like where the seatbelt mounts in a car. He was not cuffed at all at that time. We run a direct-supervision facility. WE ARE IN FIRM CONTROL OF OUR JAIL. Most other jails are allowed to operate because the inmates let them, and as such they are much like a zoo where the animals are in charge. We are at triple capacity and still remain in full control because we are dedicated to running our jail this way.

Our policy in the past had no restriction on the use of the "drive stun" while an inmate is in restraints. It has since been changed to include this even though this is not what happened in this case.