A Nation of Sheep?

[GeneralSpecific]

No offense to our allies across the pond, but... What the deuce is going on? Is there NO individual freedom left in the UK besides freedom from individual responsibility? What's next? Where's the righteous outrage of the repressed subjects? Welcome to 1984 :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

Dave

[Cockney Corner.]

Erm, "freedom of expression" anyone? That's a pretty important individual freedom isn't it? Shouldn't private individuals, in this case doctors, who I think we can accept are fairly intelligent, well informed people, be allowed to express a viewpoint?

My "two cents" are that any proposal to ban long, pointed kitchen knives wouldn't make a lick of difference and it would be near impossible to come up with a satisfactory statutory definition of the same which would fit the purpose anyway.

[GeneralSpecific]

CC,

I have nothing against freedom of expression, but that freedom does not exist in a vacuum. There is absolutely no guarantee of its continuation without other freedoms. Namely, that the people own the means to resist tyrannical abuse by their government. By no means am I asserting that either the U.S. or the UK governments are tyrannies at present, but people seem to forget that tyrants do not always start out looking like tyrants.

Neither the U.S. nor the UK have had a catastrophic event in a very long time. As happened in post WWI Germany, extreme times can cloud the judgement of governments and societies. Hitler was, by and large, ushered in with little resistance. To say that their is no possibility of such a thing happening in any "civilized" country is short-sighted and is, in my opinion, criminally negligent.

But, regardless of the above. Their is a much more important immediate issue at stake. Law-abiding individuals should have a right to defend themselves against those who would threaten their lives and those of their family. It is a basic right that has existed implicitly from the earliest beginnings of civilization. To deny that right degrades the importance of any individual, and increases the burden of protection to the state. Why would I leave my family's protection in the hands of the police? 99% of the time they arrive AFTER the crime has been committed. I don't want judicial revenge against someone who does violence against me or my family. I want the means to prevent the act when it is occurring. I think that is absolutely reasonable.

What would you think if the U.N. told the UK and US to disarm? You don't need those nukes. Just hand 'em over and we'll take care of your countries. If someone invades and takes over your country we'll hold a special council to determine if it was justified or not. Well, sorry, seems your empire-building past predisposes us to allow the takeover of your country. And the stability of the world at large is more important than your claim of sovereignty.

The free citizens should not be wards of the state. The state should be representative of and accountable to society's will. Unfortunately, as can be seen in Western European countries, and increasingly in the U.S., self-determination and personal responsibility have been eroded to the point where people look to the state for all manner of things that have traditionally, and rightly been the domain of the individual. We have learned to vote ourselves the "treasury", without regard to the consequences. Future economic collapse is a very real threat if a correction is not made. But in and of itself, the diminution of nobility of "self" is by far the greatest loss.

Regarding the alleged "intelligence" of doctors. There are certainly those who are well-rounded AND intelligent, but you should never equate a degree with good political policy or legislation. That is the realm of others. I have an old high school friend who has a Phd. in experimental nuclear physics. A very "intelligent" guy, no doubt. However, I would no more want him in charge of determining domestic or foreign policy, than Martha Stewart, or that jack**s George Soros, whom I believe damn near wiped out the Bank of England for personal gain. Let the doctors do what they were trained to do. Patch people up... And your 2 cents is worth far more in my opinion than the bonehead doctors heading up this idiotic crusade. Give yourself credit.

Thanks for your response. Seems most don't want to argue about somewhat volatile issues. Gets kind of boring if everyone agrees. :D

Dave

[Bobbycop]

That's is why freedom of expression is so important.

General Specific has just exercised his right to produce a long and rambling opinion, that HE feels is so correct that he has given it a derogatory title insulting an entire nation.

Some could argue, with statistics, that having a gun in your house means that there is much more of a chance that a member of your family may be shot dead.

Reply all you like about education blah, blah but I would not put my family in that danger and don't regard myself as a sheep for having that opinion.

You live in a different country to us and circumstances are different. So I can respect your opinions.
Try to be a little more tolerant of others.

[Cockney Corner.]

I have nothing against freedom of expression, but that freedom does not exist in a vacuum. There is absolutely no guarantee of its continuation without other freedoms. Namely, that the people own the means to resist tyrannical abuse by their government [...]

But, regardless of the above. Their is a much more important immediate issue at stake. Law-abiding individuals should have a right to defend themselves against those who would threaten their lives and those of their family. [...]

What would you think if the U.N. told the UK and US to disarm? You don't need those nukes. Just hand 'em over and we'll take care of your countries. If someone invades and takes over your country we'll hold a special council to determine if it was justified or not. Well, sorry, seems your empire-building past predisposes us to allow the takeover of your country. And the stability of the world at large is more important than your claim of sovereignty. [...]

Dave

Dave

Hmm, very interesting. We are really talking about gun control aren't we? Unless you're suggesting that we could resist tyrannical abuse by our Government using, well kitchen knives.

I do take on board your comment about wishing to be able to defend yourself. But this proposal wouldn't really make any difference in that regard. You're not allowed to carry around knives for protection in this country anyway, whether pointed or not.

And how did we get on to nuclear disarmament exactly ...?

[GeneralSpecific]

Dave

Hmm, very interesting. We are really talking about gun control aren't we? Unless you're suggesting that we could resist tyrannical abuse by our Government using, well kitchen knives.

I do take on board your comment about wishing to be able to defend yourself. But this proposal wouldn't really make any difference in that regard. You're not allowed to carry around knives for protection in this country anyway, whether pointed or not.

And how did we get on to nuclear disarmament exactly ...?

I'm only concerned with the mentality of those that say I would rather be looked after by someone else than to be responsible for my own actions. In a non-rambling nutshell. Our countries may be quite different now, but our (America's) roots are from the same tree. I would be very upset if we allowed the state to take as much control as seems to be the case in the UK and Europe. The knife thing isn't so important in particular, but I have a hard time believing that there are not more people who see how silly it is. You can't ban interpersonal violence. People will always manage to hurt each other one way or another. Anyhoo, BobbyCop, I only made the title derogatory to get a few opinions. I have great respect for your country and the alliance that has held over many years between it and ours.

As for the nuclear disarmament... A stretch, I know. But I was equating a country to an individual, and the U.N. to a country to show the absurdity of turning over your sovereignty and right to self-defense to another power.

I gotta get to work. Take care guys.

Dave

[NCHawk56]

The production of a stabbing weapons, in essence a strong shaft with a sharp pointed end that could penetrate the body and injury an internal organ is simple and requires little in the way of materials, tools or skill. As such those wishing to procure these weapons (premeditation) would quickly produce or aquire one.

For the emotional, not premeditated assault, this ban would, it seems, decrease injuries/deaths.
A question the citizens must ask is if they feel policy should be enacted to protect citizens from emotional outburst resulting in violence, in a sense making the environment safe in the event a person goes ballistic, acts irrational, and uses anything in the environment to inflict injury. Because of the unpredictability of these situations it doesn't seem logical to focus policy on them. Rather, policy should be enacted to deter and rehabilitate rational actors.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Bowles]

The production of a stabbing weapons, in essence a strong shaft with a sharp pointed end that could penetrate the body and injury an internal organ is simple and requires little in the way of materials, tools or skill. As such those wishing to procure these weapons (premeditation) would quickly produce or aquire one.

For the emotional, not premeditated assault, this ban would, it seems, decrease injuries/deaths.
A question the citizens must ask is if they feel policy should be enacted to protect citizens from emotional outburst resulting in violence, in a sense making the environment safe in the event a person goes ballistic, acts irrational, and uses anything in the environment to inflict injury. Because of the unpredictability of these situations it doesn't seem logical to focus policy on them. Rather, policy should be enacted to deter and rehabilitate rational actors.

NCHawk56

Yeah, then we can all get naked and smoke some herb.

Oh, and there is no such thing as rehabilitation.

[NCHawk56]

Yeah, then we can all get naked and smoke some herb.

Oh, and there is no such thing as rehabilitation.

Insulting me and make pointed statements that are unsubstantiated by fact accomplishs nothing. If you are aware of something that proves rehabilitation doesn't work, not personal experience but scientific research, then I would like to hear it. Until then, please qualify your statements as opinion.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Bowles]

Prove to me that it does. I work in corrections; we get new inmates in everyday. Many of those have been in before. One was out for less than 40 hours before being arrested. We actually had an escaped inmate that was out longer.
Read the book "Inside the Criminal Mind" by Dr. Stanton Samenow, it will give you a better understanding of the myth of rehabilitation.

I certainly didn't mean to insult you however; it is delusional to believe that outlawing sharp pointy things will in any way reduce assaults or murders. If there were any truth to that the fact that murder and assault are already illegal should have halted these crimes eons ago.

[NCHawk56]

Todays correctional climate is one of gross incapacitation. 85% of those in the correctional system are in for non-violent offenses. There are few resourses put into the rehabilitation of offenders, so it's not possible to use todays system as a test of rehabilitation. I will attack my own point and say that what research there is shows little improvement with rehabilitation. What is clear is that incapacitation is expensive, cruel, and unending.

Interesting article: CBS Article (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/07/national/main548143.shtml)

The idea behind rehabilitation is simple, teach offenders to solve problems using solutions that are legal. For instance, instead hitting your wife when she angers you, tell her. Communication is often a key problem with individuals who are violent offenders. Rehabilitating non-violent offenders may be more of an economic and educational change rather than a behavioral modification.

[BrickCop]

I'm no expert but isn't it kind of difficult to rehabilitate someone who is unwilling to do so? The cons can take all the communication skills, college courses and vocational training in the world but if they are unwilling or otheriwse unable to change their behavior what's the point?

I'm all for first time non -violent cons getting help but I think that most cons take advantage of these courses just to make themselves look good for the Parole Board.

[Bowles]

Here is one inmate's arrest record. I pulled this guy up at random. Read it and tell me again how well rehabilitation works. Keep in mind that these are the only crimes we know of.


Arrest Date Seq Arresting Agency or County/
Offenses Data Source/
Dispositions
Term Imposed
05/27/2001 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
ASSAULT ON FEMALE PROBATION TERM 150D; 2Y PRB;SUPV
05/27/2001 RUTHERFORD OTC
001 ASSAULT ON FEMALE PROBATION TERM 24 MOS.
03/01/2001 RUTHERFORD OTC
001 CHILD ABUSE ISI STATE PRISON TERM 3 YRS. 8 MOS.
12/16/2000 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
DAMAGE TO PROPERTY PROBATION TERM 120; 12M PRB;UNSUPV
11/27/2000 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
DRUG PARA - USE/POSSESS
POSSESS SCHEDULE VI COUNTY JAIL TERM
CONVICTED 3D
3D
02/20/2000 2 RUTHERFORD AOC
SHOPLIFTING PROBATION TERM 15D; 18M PRB;UNSUPV
02/20/2000 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
POSSESS SCHEDULE VI
DRUG PARA - USE/POSSESS CONVICTED
DISMISSED

11/23/1999 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
DISORDERLY CONDUCT PROBATION TERM 3D; 1Y PRB;UNSUPV
03/12/1999 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
SPEEDING FINED WAIVED
09/05/1997 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
SPEEDING FINED
05/29/1993 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
OPERATE VEHICLE W/O LICENSE OTHER WAIVED

***********************
************************************************** **********
02/03/1990 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
OTHER MISDEMEANANT FINED
01/31/1990 1 RUTHERFORD AOC
OTHER MISDEMEANANT OTHER WAIVED

[NCHawk56]

It doesn't sound like the state has tried to rehabilitate this individual. Putting people on probation, or in prison is not rehabilitation. Think if rehabilitation as treatment in the medical sense. I will point out, on a slight tangent that those offenders put on probation have a recidivism rate equal, within a few percentage points, as those offenders put into a correctional institution. We must stop looking at those offenders who fall into an extreme when discussing corrections. Those extremely violent offenders are already being incapacitated with long prisons sentences. Instead we must evaluate the system based on the average offender. If it is possible with rehabilitation to decrease the recidivism rate for the average offender then it is worth doing. Incapacitation has not been effective at reducing recidivism.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Dash]

Rehabilitation is a joke.

And in a world stance : US > UN + UK.

The UN/UK's verbal communication/threats gets them only so far. After that doesn't work, who do they call? Yea.

[Cockney Corner.]

The UN/UK's verbal communication/threats gets them only so far. After that doesn't work, who do they call? Yea.

Well thanks for giving the forum the benefit of your experience on international affairs.

For a 21 year old, you seem wise beyond your years.

Some might quibble that the UK's armed forces command huge international respect and have served with tremendous distinction alongside those of the US in a number of different parts of the world, including most recently Iraq and Afghanistan. And others might just suggest that you learn some manners.

[NCHawk56]

Ideology is a horrible reason to do anything. Would you want your doctor doing things based on his/her "beliefs," absolutely not. Facts and knowledge are tremendously more useful in solving problems. The fact is the land of the free has more people in prison that any other "free" nation. That's a fact. Another fact is crime has gone down since the 1980's while inprisonment rates have increase. That's a fact. The fact is 85% of those people in prison are non-violent offenders. The fact is most people don't know the first thing about our CJS; they just want to see the "bad guys" punished. True to told I can't get behind that 5y.o. ideology.

Insulting others, the UN and UK, makes yourself and the country which you claim to speak for look foolish. We are a part of the UN, and the United Kingdom, France, Spain, and to be honest most countries on the globe are full of good people. Before you are an American, you are a human.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Bowles]

[SIZE=3]Well, you

[stevec]

I'm only concerned with the mentality of those that say I would rather be looked after by someone else than to be responsible for my own actions.

Hey Dave, isn't that what Cops do?

A perfect example of doublethink. As long as you are the person doing the "looking after" you are okay with it.

(I assume you are an officer. If not, then I apologize.)

You also stated that America is not a fascist state, but on many levels EVERY state is a fascist state, with or without Bills of Rights, etc. Rights have no meaning without being enforced, and if they need to be enforced, it requires a powerful state to enforce them. Either way you end up with a fascist state.

[PC Plum]

I don't usually get annoyed or upset by other peoples views, we're all entitled to a point of view and to air those views, however it seems that some people on this forum are getting the idea that because we don't carry guns on duty and that we have gun control here that as a nation we are inferior to the US. That we don't have individual freedom to do as we please and would not be able to stand up to our government if we needed too.
Yes I agree the voices that seem to get heard are those of the small minority who shout louder than anyone else, but DO NOT accuse the British Nation of being sheep.
And Certainly do not accuse this nation of being against the US. When the rest of the world is against your foriegn policy, and the UN delcares certain actions as illegal in international law, just take a peak to your right and see this little nation stood next to you!
If you don't think we can look after ourselves then take heed of advice given to American forces serving with British Troops in Berlin in the 70's and in the Gulf in Desert Storm 1.
Do Not Gamble with the British...
Do Not Drink with the British...
Do Not Fight with the British...



YOU WILL LOOSE. :mad:

My appologies for not being as eloquent in my arguments ans CC and Bobby Cop, but just stop knocking us for our difference in Culture...You are not British, We are not American and in a world sense it generally is the US and UK against the rest of the world. Neither nation is particularlay liked because we will not be dictated to by other nations.

[21blue28]

Getting back onto the subject.....

This is getting stupid. Next, they ought to start talking about banning pools, cars, pointy edges on furniture, sidewalks made out of concrete, etc, etc ....

hey, I think that I am on to something. If everything was made of nerf foam, wow!!!!!!!! I need to look for a patenting web site ...... be back in a bit!!!!!!!

[PC Plum]

Getting back onto the subject.....

This is getting stupid. Next, they ought to start talking about banning pools, cars, pointy edges on furniture, sidewalks made out of concrete, etc, etc ....

hey, I think that I am on to something. If everything was made of nerf foam, wow!!!!!!!! I need to look for a patenting web site ...... be back in a bit!!!!!!!
21 Blue.....
Thank you..... Yes it is getting stupid so why anyone in their right mind would even take that coment from some prat of Dr. in the UK is beyond me....unless thier only intention was to get a reaction from certain officers in a certain country (in my case it succeded!).
And my appolgies for my earlier rant.

[Savcop]

Neither nation is particularlay liked because we will not be dictated to by other nations.

Different cultures, yes, but we must stick together because we are the only ones we can depend on.

[tony.o]

Getting back onto the subject.....

This is getting stupid. Next, they ought to start talking about banning pools, cars, pointy edges on furniture, sidewalks made out of concrete, etc, etc ....

hey, I think that I am on to something. If everything was made of nerf foam, wow!!!!!!!! I need to look for a patenting web site ...... be back in a bit!!!!!!!
Naw, that won't work either. Somebody will bite a piece off and choke to death on it.

[tony.o]

I don't usually get annoyed or upset by other peoples views, we're all entitled to a point of view and to air those views, however it seems that some people on this forum are getting the idea that because we don't carry guns on duty and that we have gun control here that as a nation we are inferior to the US. That we don't have individual freedom to do as we please and would not be able to stand up to our government if we needed too.
Yes I agree the voices that seem to get heard are those of the small minority who shout louder than anyone else, but DO NOT accuse the British Nation of being sheep.
And Certainly do not accuse this nation of being against the US. When the rest of the world is against your foriegn policy, and the UN delcares certain actions as illegal in international law, just take a peak to your right and see this little nation stood next to you!
If you don't think we can look after ourselves then take heed of advice given to American forces serving with British Troops in Berlin in the 70's and in the Gulf in Desert Storm 1.
Do Not Gamble with the British...
Do Not Drink with the British...
Do Not Fight with the British...



YOU WILL LOOSE. :mad:

My appologies for not being as eloquent in my arguments ans CC and Bobby Cop, but just stop knocking us for our difference in Culture...You are not British, We are not American and in a world sense it generally is the US and UK against the rest of the world. Neither nation is particularlay liked because we will not be dictated to by other nations.
Damn, you guys might just get ****ed off and go to your own web site. :D

[PC Plum]

Tony.O
Now why is it that you want only american cops on this forum...we all have differing points of view and if all non Americans fell off the face of the forum who would you argue with....it would be just a tad boring wouldn't it!

[GeneralSpecific]

Let me get some of the smoke cleared here. I came to this site by accident while researching the attitudes of law enforcement officers on the Assault Weapons Ban of '94. I am not law enforcement, although I work for the DEA. I was very relieved to find that the rank and file police appeared to be in agreement, that individual citizens have the right and the duty to defend themselves and their families with firearms. (or the biggest, baddest crap in their inventory).

I have received many indignant replies. I understand why those replies were that way if the individuals did not read my initial and subsequent entries fully, but the fact is, I did not denigrate the UK beyond the initial title. If it is not the case, than make your case. It's simple. I'm not here to make you feel better. I'm here to see if the situation is as bad as it seems in the news. The site does not get much of a response rate if the subject isn't slightly inflamatory. I gave credit, and always will, for the tremendous support that the US has received from Britain over the last near-century. That is not the issue here, however. The point I've tried to make is that even as much as I respect the decades of foreign policy support from the UK, anything as absurd as banning pointed objects of any sort (unless in specific areas like airports, etc... and that's stretch, since a ball point pen is not likely to be banned, at least in the next year), is a sad state of affairs. Do you have your doctors fix your car? Or make your financial retirement decisions? Have they suddenly become endowed with superhuman qualities that make your own personal judgement obsolete? Unfortunately, if some of the responses are representative of the mentality of LEO's of any country, that may just be the case.

If you would like to argue with me rationally, then address the points I propose, or start your own thread. What is the limit of government in the protection of citizens? Our country explicitly (and judicially) holds no law enforcement entity responsible for any citizen's life (and certainly not my wife's or children's). And I'm not bitching about that, it is just a fact. There is no way police can rationally be held accountable for the actions of everyone. Unfortunately, our government (US) repeatedly passes laws which pretend that they actually have universal control over the actions of everyone. this control is most obvious in the laws that law-abiding citizens conform to every day, while criminals do what criminals do...break the damn law.

look at Canada, the UK and Australia for some examples of what gun control can achieve. Yes, I was talking about gun control before. What can I do to protect my family and anyone else for that matter who is being assaulted? Call the police??? What will you do in that situation, as a LEO? Wait for backup? No. You'll protect your family with the biggest hammer you've got. And here in the US that's most likely going to be about 230 grains of justice (partial to the .45's), not a cell phone call to the local precinct. Why the devil should I have any less of a deterrent available to me? I see, you're going to ban construction tools too... Or you could just pass laws that require permits for those who can show a need to own such ghastly implements of destruction.

My bet is, that most law enforcement officers are not crazy gamblers. You've dealt with life and death situations, and I hope the vast majority would prefer to be the keepers of their own, and their family's destinies. That is not in keeping with the current global trend to forgive despots and dictators their vices, but deny citizens the means to resist such daily depradations on a local level. If you think that's ok, or even vaguely explainable, then you might want to look up the term Hypocrite.

This is my apology for any perceived injustices I may have perpetrated against man, animal or otherwise in this thread. I revel in the stalwart position of the UK in our fight against terrorism and countless prior trials. I hold law enforcement personnel in the highest esteem. I also think Australia is ok, but I'm sure as hell not getting on a plane for that long when I've got the Caribbean this close by. I hope you all watch your backs and those of your friends, family and anyone else worthy. But, I would ask you to allow me to do the same for my kin, friends, and anyone else I happen upon who is unable resist the opportunism that we all know exists in this world. Let governments do what they do best, watch out for themselves. Let us care for people. Thanks to all, and especially for those who work tirelessly as sheepdogs in a world of sheep;)

Dave

[Mitchell_in_CT]

I wonder when the UK is going to deport or imprison all the people who teach martial arts like Escrima, Silat, Daito-ryu or anything dangerous...

All that will be left is TKD and maybe olympic judo, if licenced, and one can show a need to learn it...

[Jack Price]

Well, banning sharp knives should take care of the concern about mad cow. Every piece of beef I ever ate at an English military base was tough as boot leather. No sharp knife, no eat meat! HEY! Maybe I just figured out why the SAS was so tough - chewy beef and chewy bitter beer?

[PC Plum]

Every piece of beef I ever ate at an English military base was tough as boot leather.

Having spent 12 years in the army I just can't find any way to defend my country on that point! Actually I would go as far as to say our boot leather wasn't that tough.

[tony.o]

Tony.O
Now why is it that you want only american cops on this forum...we all have differing points of view and if all non Americans fell off the face of the forum who would you argue with....it would be just a tad boring wouldn't it!
I don't want you to go anywhere, I like you. :) Don't worry, I can find plenty of Americans to argue with. :D I think you said you have been to TN, if you visit in the future, let me know, maybe we can meet. I'm very hospitable, regardless of what some may think due to my posts.

[PC Plum]

Ok,
So who pinched thereal Tony.O and put this other one in his place?
:D Ta very much Tony.

[FedLEO83]

Prove to me that it does. I work in corrections; we get new inmates in everyday. Many of those have been in before. One was out for less than 40 hours before being arrested. We actually had an escaped inmate that was out longer.
Read the book "Inside the Criminal Mind" by Dr. Stanton Samenow, it will give you a better understanding of the myth of rehabilitation.

I certainly didn't mean to insult you however; it is delusional to believe that outlawing sharp pointy things will in any way reduce assaults or murders. If there were any truth to that the fact that murder and assault are already illegal should have halted these crimes eons ago.
The problem with these rehabilitation programs in the past is that they have never been allowed to function long enough to prove their value. They are expensive programs, and they are ususally cut quickly in a budget crunch. Of course, we will have people that will never be able to change. In these cases, keeping these people off the street is an important task for our Officers on the street. BTW, I think we got off the track here....