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AREP87
02-26-2009, 12:18 PM
I was wandering if there are any current Pennsylvania Sheriff's on here that could tell me some things about their job. What exactly do sheriff's in this state do? Do you like your jobs? Would you recommend it? What kind of daily functions do you perform? And i know this is a touchy subject but do sheriff's have regular arrest powers and the ability to do vehicle stops? If somebody could answer any questions on this board, or PM me i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks

fedguy889
02-26-2009, 02:33 PM
Here is a little info for you.

Support PA Sheriffs (http://www.supportpasheriffs.org/)


In February 2006, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in a case known as Kopko that sheriffs "are not 'investigative or law enforcement officers'" under the Pennsylvania Wiretapping Act. In November 2007, the Court restated in a case called Dobbins that the sheriffs' common law authority allows only for arrests for breaches of the peace and felonies committed in their presence - authority "no different than a private citizen.”

Click here for more info on them.

More about Sheriffs' Powers & Duties » (http://www.supportpasheriffs.org/issue/)

Allegheny County does not fall under any of this. The are LEOs and have full arrest authority.

Tripwire11
03-01-2009, 10:29 AM
AR, I have been on the job for 4 years now, I am retired military. Its a great job for me, no shift work yet. However, if you are young and just getting started law enforcement it could be a great place to start. You can look at the PA Sheriff Web Site to get a better idea the different between Act 2 and Act 120, Act 2 is 19 weeks at Penn State in State College, PA. The 2 biggest job that deputies do are prisoner transports and civil papers (serving PFAs, Writ of Execution, Court papers). My county, we do a little of everything because our DA support our office. ( Drug Taskforce, K-9, SWAT, DUI Check Points and Traffic). It just depends on the Sheriff and DA of the county, York County is very proactive. Some counties are in my words lazy, still on the good old boy system, they do as little as possible. Myself and others deputies have no problem with working PSP and other Police departments in my county.

tp2165
03-02-2009, 08:41 AM
AREP87,

If you are interested in patrol based law enforcement as a deputy sheriff, I would recommend looking out of state.

Sheriff Offices in PA are what they are, some want them to be more than what they aren't. (My opinion and not some biased toward sheriffs, I could care less what they do or don't do).

Cacique
03-06-2009, 12:55 PM
Pennsylvania is rediculous. It's bad enough that Corrections Officers are not recognized as peace officers, but to attempt to limit the parameters of a sheriff, is plain foolish. Most Sheriff's in PA are sworn in, and the Sheriff Basic Training Program in Penn State teaches the same courses (and a little more) you'll find in the PA ACT 120 curriculum, but this judge fails to recognize sheriff's as "law enforcement."

PPDSWD
03-06-2009, 05:05 PM
Could you imagine if the Sheriff in Philly did police work, it would be a mess. In Philly the Sheriff's department is in charge of courtroom security as well as prisoner transport and civil stuff. Hell, I don't even think they serve PFA's here I have served more PFA's as a cop then I can count. On any given day you would be lucky to see a deputy in 10% percent of the courtrooms. The only security in the rooms are the cops that are there for court. Now we have some fine and hard working deputies, however I don't know about other counties but here lets just leave the police work to the PPD and the court security to the Sheriffs Office.

Cacique
03-07-2009, 04:09 PM
PPDSWD, my concerns over wanting to be recognize as LEO has nothing to do with Sheriff's being able to do typical police work. But it will be important to be considered for any emergency back-up situation and have the option to join any Law Enforcement task force (i.e. Fugitive Task Force). New Jersey, New York and many other states around this region don't have that restriction, and they all have valuable members from all fields in law enforcement in their specialized teams.

timtim
03-09-2009, 08:20 AM
I love how this topic pops up every few months. PSP and the FOP have full lobby power over the Legislature andCourts. They do not want anyone recognized w/full LEO authority other then themselves. PSP wants to be sure they keep and get the funding they do and I'm not sure about the FOP I think they just piggy back.

Don't take my word on it just read the transcripts from hearings in Harrisburg about what they say about Sheriffs. Philly is a first Class City and can pretty much operate as they see fit, but for the most part they follow suite w/ the rest of the State.

Sheriffs, Constables, Parole and dog enforcement so on are in fact considered LEOs' per Pennsylvania Laws. However, it is more protection then it is authority. Simply, if one gets assulted or murdered you would be charged with assulting a Law Enforcement Officer, or eluding, resisting arrest that type of stuff.

Sheriffs and Constables share their arrest authority of yea you can arrest but you won't charge. They have to turn'em over to the PDs' for charges to be filed by them. Sheriffs may conduct traffic stops Constables can't.

Blah Blah this State is horrible in Law Enforcement.

AvalancheZ71
03-09-2009, 09:23 AM
Could you imagine if the Sheriff in Philly did police work, it would be a mess. In Philly the Sheriff's department is in charge of courtroom security as well as prisoner transport and civil stuff. Hell, I don't even think they serve PFA's here I have served more PFA's as a cop then I can count. On any given day you would be lucky to see a deputy in 10% percent of the courtrooms. The only security in the rooms are the cops that are there for court. Now we have some fine and hard working deputies, however I don't know about other counties but here lets just leave the police work to the PPD and the court security to the Sheriffs Office.

It would work out like it does in the City & County of San Fransisco or maybe like the NYC City Sheriff or any of the city sheriffs in Viginia or like the Baltimore City Sheriff. Saint Louis has a city sheriff. The charters are written as so the city police departments have the chief responsibility to conserve the peace, whearas the other said agency still have the power to conserve the peace, however, they do not have the duty to do so. This means that PPD would still do what they do, but the Sheriff would also be able to supplement efforts and finish out what they may have started if they come across something. Have you heard of the Cook County Sheriff taking over Chicago? These things work out.

PPDSWD
03-09-2009, 12:58 PM
I have heard of all of those agencies and just because it works there doesn't mean it will work here. The thing here in PA is that traditionally the role of the sheriff is serving papers, civil process, transport prisoners and court security. There are 67 counties in PA and in 66 of them the Sheriff is responsible for issuing permits to carry, with the exception being The City and County of Philadelphia where the Sheriff has no authority it issue permits to carry, that responsibility belongs to the Police Commissioner. Another thing is that municipalities like the idea of havening there own police departments so they can police their area as they see fit and they do not like the idea of having someone else come in and police their community. It happened here in Philly with the State Police taking over patrol of some of the interstate highways. The PPD always patrolled those highways and some of our guys and the FOP were a little mad at the idea of another agency policing our city. The PSP is top notch and we are grateful for the help.

timtim
03-09-2009, 03:43 PM
I have heard of all of those agencies and just because it works there doesn't mean it will work here. The thing here in PA is that traditionally the role of the sheriff is serving papers, civil process, transport prisoners and court security. There are 67 counties in PA and in 66 of them the Sheriff is responsible for issuing permits to carry, with the exception being The City and County of Philadelphia where the Sheriff has no authority it issue permits to carry, that responsibility belongs to the Police Commissioner. Another thing is that municipalities like the idea of havening there own police departments so they can police their area as they see fit and they do not like the idea of having someone else come in and police their community. It happened here in Philly with the State Police taking over patrol of some of the interstate highways. The PPD always patrolled those highways and some of our guys and the FOP were a little mad at the idea of another agency policing our city. The PSP is top notch and we are grateful for the help.

Who said anything about taking it over. Thats why they keep putting Sheriffs and so on down. They are not asking to take over patrols/response. They ask for recognition as a full functioning LEO to handle their buisness so they don't constantly have to call the Police to file charges. When somthen happens to them or in their presence/property they want to handle their buisness just like anyone else would. Most areas in the South as close as MD, Sheriffs handle the Courts and so on. However, they do not need to call the "Police" when somethen happens in their presence/property they do their thing on their own.

orlandofed5-0
03-09-2009, 03:55 PM
PPDSWD.. You would be suprised at what the Philly sheriff's office does. They have a warrant unit (not the goofballs from the first judicial district warrant unit). They do have k-9 units who do respond to Philly jobs especially in CC.

John Green is an @$$ and should of never been reelected but as our former mayor stated "The brothers run this city".

If Uttenmeyer was elected, you would not have convicts err CO's being promoted to deputy and those of us who took the test would not of gotten screwed.

Ytiunegni
03-09-2009, 05:11 PM
First, let me say that Sheriff deputies are no less important (and no more important) than a police officer. I respect their jobs, just as I do police jobs. I have no problem working with Sheriff Deputies. For that matter I enjoy working with ANYBODY, sworn or civilian, who aids in making our streets safer for society. With that said...

Arguing over the powers of the Sheriffs in PA is getting to be a little ridiculous. Sheriff deputies knew (or at least should have known) their limitations when they accepted the job. Don't try to change your job description/responsibility simply because you want to do something else.

If you want "police" powers (traffic stops, filing charges, etc) then become a policeman. If you want "court" powers (serve papers, provide courtroom security, etc.) then become a Sheriff deputy. Whew! That was hard to figure out.

Every time someone on this forum cries that Sheriff deputies should have police powers, it makes me chuckle. What's next? Giving corrections officers police powers too? Giving the coroner the authority to do traffic stops? Letting fire plice serve warrants? Allowing city trash collectors to perform open heart surgery? It's absurd.

It's simple. I'll say it again. If you want police powers, become a policeman/woman. If you want the authority of a Sheriff, become a Sheriff deputy. Whatever you do, do NOT accept a job position, and try to change it's job description into something else. Don't become a Sheriff deputy and then complain that you can't do surgery, and don't become a Sheriff deputy and complain that you don't have police powers. You knew what you can/can't do when you took the job, so deal with it or change jobs.

Spartan75
03-10-2009, 03:49 PM
Every state that has deputy sheriffs gives them full police powers, except PA. In most states the sheriff departments have all the same duties as PA deputies, in addition to patrol.

Having moved from PA to Florida, I see big differences in the way policing is done from what I saw up North. I think we can all agree that in PA the State Police is considered the elite. In Florida there is no State Police. There is the Highway Patrol and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE). Highway Patrol is not the elite here. It is one of the lowest paid departments, and their job is mostly traffic. There is a small amount of specialty units, but there are few of them and they are mostly traffic related also. The FDLE does mostly investigate services, sort of like a Florida FBI.

There are also other state, county, city, and municipal departments also. However, the deputy sheriff departments are the largest (except for Miami-Dade Police Department (MDPD)), and offer the greatest potential for advancement. Even the MDPD, the one you see in Miami Vice or CSI: Miami, is sort of a sheriffs department. In some departments you have to work in the detention section (if they have one) for a time, in many you can go straight to patrol. Also, many of the departments have take home cars and pay very well, with plenty of OT. It is a pretty good system IMHO.

I digress. I would imagine most of the PA deputies really don’t want to do patrol. If they did they could become a police officer. So why not just do what Jersey does? Only two of their sheriff departments patrol. The rest do the same things as PA sheriffs. However, they have full police powers. Most of them go to a regular police academy with municipal officers. Why can’t PA just do the same thing? Get rid of the sheriff academy, and just send deputies to their nearest police academy. Make everyone Act 120 certified, and that way they can also carry under HR 218. Also, deputies would be able to be used as police officers if needed. I don’t see the harm in that. Again, PA IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOES NOT GIVE DEPUTIES FULL POLICE POWERS. At one time the only law enforcement in PA or for the country was the sheriffs department. So giving them back their powers is nothing new. I would bet that almost anyone you ask in PA has no clue and would think it is ridiculous that deputes do not have police powers.

orlandofed5-0
03-10-2009, 03:59 PM
Just a heads up but the Miami-Dade PD is a sheriff's office. They just do not have an elected sheriff. Look at the inner badge and you will see the sheriff's star in it.

timtim
03-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Every state that has deputy sheriffs gives them full police powers, except PA. In most states the sheriff departments have all the same duties as PA deputies, in addition to patrol.

Having moved from PA to Florida, I see big differences in the way policing is done from what I saw up North. I think we can all agree that in PA the State Police is considered the elite. In Florida there is no State Police. There is the Highway Patrol and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE). Highway Patrol is not the elite here. It is one of the lowest paid departments, and their job is mostly traffic. There is a small amount of specialty units, but there are few of them and they are mostly traffic related also. The FDLE does mostly investigate services, sort of like a Florida FBI.

There are also other state, county, city, and municipal departments also. However, the deputy sheriff departments are the largest (except for Miami-Dade Police Department (MDPD)), and offer the greatest potential for advancement. Even the MDPD, the one you see in Miami Vice or CSI: Miami, is sort of a sheriffs department. In some departments you have to work in the detention section (if they have one) for a time, in many you can go straight to patrol. Also, many of the departments have take home cars and pay very well, with plenty of OT. It is a pretty good system IMHO.

I digress. I would imagine most of the PA deputies really don’t want to do patrol. If they did they could become a police officer. So why not just do what Jersey does? Only two of their sheriff departments patrol. The rest do the same things as PA sheriffs. However, they have full police powers. Most of them go to a regular police academy with municipal officers. Why can’t PA just do the same thing? Get rid of the sheriff academy, and just send deputies to their nearest police academy. Make everyone Act 120 certified, and that way they can also carry under HR 218. Also, deputies would be able to be used as police officers if needed. I don’t see the harm in that. Again, PA IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOES NOT GIVE DEPUTIES FULL POLICE POWERS. At one time the only law enforcement in PA or for the country was the sheriffs department. So giving them back their powers is nothing new. I would bet that almost anyone you ask in PA has no clue and would think it is ridiculous that deputes do not have police powers.


The first and only true LEO in PA was the Constable and his deputies. The Sheriffs and Police came later.

irishlad2nv
03-10-2009, 04:09 PM
[QUOTE=Spartan75;1702368] PA IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOES NOT GIVE DEPUTIES FULL POLICE POWERS.QUOTE]

Not even close. You have deputies in Maryland that are in corrections with no arrest powers. However patrol deputies do. This is the same for many states.

Don't forget about Jacksonville Police "Sheriff's office" Duval County.

AvalancheZ71
03-10-2009, 04:25 PM
[QUOTE=Spartan75;1702368] PA IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOES NOT GIVE DEPUTIES FULL POLICE POWERS.QUOTE]

Not even close. You have deputies in Maryland that are in corrections with no arrest powers. However patrol deputies do. This is the same for many states.

Don't forget about Jacksonville Police "Sheriff's office" Duval County.

True, but the respective sheriff offices' in MD have deputies that do have full police powers. Not all deputies have police powers. I think that is a twist on what was. Many sheriffs' offices have deputies that do not have police powers, but there are only a handful that do not have police powers. So while that statement on it 's face is not 100% factual, it is mainly true.

Case in point. Sheriffs in TN have full police power except Davidson County. That is only by the wishes of the Metropolitan Charter of Nashville & Davidson County. There is a bill in the house that would eliminate the power of the metro government to limit the duties of the sheriff. The same is true for Saint Louis County, not Saint Louis City. The Saint Louis County Sheriff does not have law enforcement powers at all due to the Saint Louis county charter.

Spartan75
03-10-2009, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Spartan75;1702368] PA IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOES NOT GIVE DEPUTIES FULL POLICE POWERS.QUOTE]

Not even close. You have deputies in Maryland that are in corrections with no arrest powers. However patrol deputies do. This is the same for many states.

Don't forget about Jacksonville Police "Sheriff's office" Duval County.

From the Maryland State Sheriffs’ Association’s website:

Today, Sheriffs remain the primary law enforcement official in many Maryland communities. The state's 24 Sheriffs and their more than 1,600 deputies are sworn police officers, graduates of certified police academies, and have the same powers as other Maryland law enforcement officials to make arrests and detain lawbreakers.

Even in states were corrections are under the sheriff departments and deputies work the jails, those deputies have full police powers. Some sheriff departments have correction officers with no powers; however they are not deputies or sheriff officers but correction officers.

What about the JSO? Are you talking about the fact that their officers are called sheriff police officers?

irishlad2nv
03-10-2009, 06:09 PM
Not even going to attempt to argure. I know for a fact since I sarted LE at a SO in Maryland and the deputies we had in the jail had absolutely no police powers what so ever, which is why they attended a Correctional Academy!

And yes JSO is. There is no "Jacksonville County" aka Duval County, which makes up JSO. Same concept and MDPD.

Steelers5
03-10-2009, 06:34 PM
......
wrong thread

deleted.

AvalancheZ71
03-10-2009, 08:05 PM
Not even going to attempt to argure. I know for a fact since I sarted LE at a SO in Maryland and the deputies we had in the jail had absolutely no police powers what so ever, which is why they attended a Correctional Academy!

And yes JSO is. There is no "Jacksonville County" aka Duval County, which makes up JSO. Same concept and MDPD.

Yes, however, said SO's do have deputies with police powers, just not all deputies have them. The only real difference in PA is that the deputies cannot investigate. They may still conserve the peace.

AvalancheZ71
03-10-2009, 08:24 PM
As to the Miami-Dade Police Department, the county attorney has opined that the County Mayor, Carlos Alvarez is in fact ex-officio Sheriff. Good thing though that Carlos was once a police officer and was the director of the Miami-Dade Police Department.

PPDSWD
03-11-2009, 02:25 AM
I think we can all agree that in PA the State Police is considered the elite.

Could you please describe your criteria for determining who is elite in Pennsylvania and who isn't?

Spartan75
03-11-2009, 03:12 PM
Could you please describe your criteria for determining who is elite in Pennsylvania and who isn't?

I don’t think the State Police are the elite, but many people do. The kind of policing they do does not interest me. However, I appreciate their hiring standards. I think having some college or military experience to get hired is good. All the Troopers I have met or I have seen have acted and looked professional. I am sure there are exceptions to that, but they put that perception out.

Spartan75
03-11-2009, 03:26 PM
Not even going to attempt to argure. I know for a fact since I sarted LE at a SO in Maryland and the deputies we had in the jail had absolutely no police powers what so ever, which is why they attended a Correctional Academy!

And yes JSO is. There is no "Jacksonville County" aka Duval County, which makes up JSO. Same concept and MDPD.

To save an argument, let put it this way. Can you name me a state were almost none of the deputy sheriffs have no police powers, besides PA?

I still don’t see your point about the JSO. So there is no Jacksonville County, who said there was? What’s the point? Most of the people who live in Duval County live in Jacksonville. It has been more than 40 years since the Duval County government and the Jacksonville city governments merged. I don’t see your point.

Miami-Dade County is totally different. The city of Miami maintains a separate government than Dade County. Only the name of Dade County was changed, not the government.

irishlad2nv
03-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Besides PA, no. Never argued that one there. However several states have detention deuies who are in fact deputies with no police powers. Yes I know typically Sheriff's office are the main LE function in most states, besides Pa.

Never attempted to make a "point" about JSO.

Spartan75
03-11-2009, 03:49 PM
Besides PA, no. Never argued that one there. However several states have detention deuies who are in fact deputies with no police powers. Yes I know typically Sheriff's office are the main LE function in most states, besides Pa.

Never attempted to make a "point" about JSO.


So with all that said, what would it hurt to give deputies in PA police powers? Counties in PA have a separate corrections department, so all of the deputies in PA perform the same duties as deputies do across the U.S. besides patrol and corrections. In many counties, especially in the Northeast, there are a restricted department (warrants, courtroom, Prisoner transport, subpoenas, etc) like PA and all of there non-correction deputies have police powers.

orlandofed5-0
03-11-2009, 07:46 PM
Comparing FL to PA is like comparing apples and oranges. Sheriff's in FL (including JSO which is a merged agency and still has an elected sheriff and Miami Dade PD which is also an SO and actually has 2 sheriff's appointed by the county council) have the responsibility of the county jail, civil process and afew other items.

In PA you DO NOT have unincorporated areas of the county. Everything is incorporated which is unique since it requires the municipality to contract out for LE services or have their own force.

Prior to their abolishment, I believe CT deputy sheriff's (now known as judicial marshals) had no LE powers.

Spartan75
03-11-2009, 09:38 PM
Comparing FL to PA is like comparing apples and oranges. Sheriff's in FL (including JSO which is a merged agency and still has an elected sheriff and Miami Dade PD which is also an SO and actually has 2 sheriff's appointed by the county council) have the responsibility of the county jail, civil process and afew other items.

In PA you DO NOT have unincorporated areas of the county. Everything is incorporated which is unique since it requires the municipality to contract out for LE services or have their own force.

Prior to their abolishment, I believe CT deputy sheriff's (now known as judicial marshals) had no LE powers.

I was in Kane County, Illinois (http://www.kanesheriff.com/) a few months ago. Its a little smaller than Bucks county, and has a population of 500,000. There are some large departments with and small ones. Every little town had a police department. The sheriff's office did patrol throughout the county, though mostly in the unincorporated area. I did see them throughout the town of Aurora, which has a large department (300+). They even handled 911 dispatch for many towns, and they handle corrections. That is a good example of what a sheriffs office should do. It is also what many sheriffs departments across the country do.

I'll agree that there is some deputies outside PA that don't have police powers (of course many are not deputy sheriffs, but deputy correction officers like Kane County). But that is a very, very tiny amount. And there is no other state besides PA where the whole state does not recognize deputy sheriffs as LEOs. Lets take NJ for example. Only two sheriff departments do patrol, the rest don't. But every single deputy is considered a LEO with full LEO powers.

So when it comes down to it, there is really no valid point or precedent as to why PA sheriffs don't have police powers.

I believe deputies in CT had police powers, but their police services were only needed in a few areas with no local departments.

timtim
03-12-2009, 03:41 AM
I was in Kane County, Illinois (http://www.kanesheriff.com/) a few months ago. Its a little smaller than Bucks county, and has a population of 500,000. There are some large departments with and small ones. Every little town had a police department. The sheriff's office did patrol throughout the county, though mostly in the unincorporated area. I did see them throughout the town of Aurora, which has a large department (300+). They even handled 911 dispatch for many towns, and they handle corrections. That is a good example of what a sheriffs office should do. It is also what many sheriffs departments across the country do.

I'll agree that there is some deputies outside PA that don't have police powers (of course many are not deputy sheriffs, but deputy correction officers like Kane County). But that is a very, very tiny amount. And there is no other state besides PA where the whole state does not recognize deputy sheriffs as LEOs. Lets take NJ for example. Only two sheriff departments do patrol, the rest don't. But every single deputy is considered a LEO with full LEO powers.

So when it comes down to it, there is really no valid point or precedent as to why PA sheriffs don't have police powers.

I believe deputies in CT had police powers, but their police services were only needed in a few areas with no local departments.


There is a valid point not to (bear in mind this is a joke not an attack on your post) PSP and the FOP are afraid to let 'em have it. Why? Because out in central and western pa a lot of Counties rely on PSP and the one ore two small PDs. PSP handles all calls. So, if the Sheriffs get that authority they can contract services out to smaller Bororoughs and provide response. they can turn themselves into a money making agency. PSP would lose funding/manpower in those areas as the Sheriffs got bigger.

Ladies and gentleman thats your awnser why. There is no secret that PSP has blocked the legislation on Sheriffs. Just go to the PA Sheriffs association website, its right on there.

Spartan75
03-12-2009, 09:30 AM
There is a valid point not to (bear in mind this is a joke not an attack on your post) PSP and the FOP are afraid to let 'em have it. Why? Because out in central and western pa a lot of Counties rely on PSP and the one ore two small PDs. PSP handles all calls. So, if the Sheriffs get that authority they can contract services out to smaller Bororoughs and provide response. they can turn themselves into a money making agency. PSP would lose funding/manpower in those areas as the Sheriffs got bigger.

Ladies and gentleman thats your awnser why. There is no secret that PSP has blocked the legislation on Sheriffs. Just go to the PA Sheriffs association website, its right on there.


Your right, what you say really sums it up. Hopefully, with the talk of regionalization in many areas of PA, people will think it is wiser to expand a sheriff department rather than create departments from scratch.

DEcop989
03-15-2009, 07:12 PM
e d i t e d . . . .

GangGreen712
03-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Prior to their abolishment, I believe CT deputy sheriff's (now known as judicial marshals) had no LE powers.

We don't have any county level government, period.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think MA deputy sheriffs have much in the way of LE powers either.

Spartan75
03-15-2009, 11:25 PM
We don't have any county level government, period.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think MA deputy sheriffs have much in the way of LE powers either.

They still have statutory arrest powers.

AvalancheZ71
03-16-2009, 02:13 PM
They have statatory arrest powers, however, they are not well received by the municipal police and state police. Every square inch in MA is incorporated as well as PA. This is one of the reasons why the Sheriff in those states lost their signifigance when it comes to law enforcement. Constables then later police officers have always had more law enforcement signigance in those states as far as I know.

Spartan75
03-16-2009, 02:45 PM
They have statatory arrest powers, however, they are not well received by the municipal police and state police. Every square inch in MA is incorporated as well as PA. This is one of the reasons why the Sheriff in those states lost their signifigance when it comes to law enforcement. Constables then later police officers have always had more law enforcement signigance in those states as far as I know.

They still have their powers and are LEOs. That is all the PA sheriffs are asking for.

Cacique
03-16-2009, 04:04 PM
They still have their powers and are LEOs. That is all the PA sheriffs are asking for.


Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.

timtim
03-16-2009, 04:12 PM
Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.


Well, I will argue, PA Sheriffs do not have Statutory arrest authority with the exception of one. H.R. 218 requires Statutory Arrest Authority period. PA Sheriffs Deputies and Sheriffs do not meet the printented requirement. The Sheriff better get with the County Lawyers before telling his guys/gals go ahead.

qualified law enforcement officer means an employee of a governmental agency who--

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

Spartan75
03-16-2009, 04:21 PM
Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.

From the PA Sheriff's Assocation own website:

In February 2006, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in a case known as Kopko that sheriffs "are not 'investigative or law enforcement officers'" under the Pennsylvania Wiretapping Act. In November 2007, the Court restated in a case called Dobbins that the sheriffs' common law authority allows only for arrests for breaches of the peace and felonies committed in their presence - authority "no different than a private citizen.”

In plain English.

irishlad2nv
03-16-2009, 04:44 PM
Dude, I've been doing my research on the side and PA sheriff's ARE considered Law Enforcement in this state. And we ARE covered under the HR 218. I got this from a Sheriff himself. That Kopko case everyone is revering to refers to the "wiretapping act" of PA and nothing else. If you need more info, just email privately, I don't want get into an argument about this on this forum.

"We" Unless you as a Corrections officer has Statutory powers of arrest, you cannot carry per LESOA. And PA Sheriff's cannot carry off duty per LESOA since they do not have Staturoty Powers of arrest.

"Law Enforcement" can range from a security guard to the Attorney General himself.

AvalancheZ71
03-16-2009, 04:49 PM
Alaska does not have a sheriff system. Hawaii has a State Sheriff. Now that I think about it, I believe that Delaware's sheriffs do not have statatory law enforcement powers either. I believe that the DE constitution states that they are converators of the peace, however, I seem to remember that the DE Attorney General made the Suffolk County Sheriff remove his lights and siren and told him to cease writing tickets.

orlandofed5-0
03-16-2009, 06:59 PM
Alaska does not have a sheriff system. Hawaii has a State Sheriff. Now that I think about it, I believe that Delaware's sheriffs do not have statatory law enforcement powers either. I believe that the DE constitution states that they are converators of the peace, however, I seem to remember that the DE Attorney General made the Suffolk County Sheriff remove his lights and siren and told him to cease writing tickets.

You mean the former Sussex county sheriff who was trying to bring the MD style of LE to DE? It would of worked if it was not for the county council and the DSP.

DEcop989
03-17-2009, 11:12 AM
e d i t e d . . . .

AvalancheZ71
03-17-2009, 01:11 PM
You mean the former Sussex county sheriff who was trying to bring the MD style of LE to DE? It would of worked if it was not for the county council and the DSP.

That is it. I am sorry, Sussex County. It was Sheriff Robert Reed. He was defeated and the new guy is a retired DE State Police Trooper. I bet he will keep the DSP in business by not pursuing the whole county law enforcement thing.

rpd86
03-22-2009, 11:14 PM
I am a road patrol deputy, in New York. I am sad to hear that this debate is still going on, in PA. In New York, Sheriffs/Deputy Sheriffs are police officers, per NY criminal procedure law.

In New York State, the chief law enforcement officer of a county is the Sheriff (per state law). It is not the state police or any other police agency. There is one exception to the law: New York City Sheriff. He/She and deputies are peace officers not police officers. That changed when the NYPD was created, many years ago. The Office of Sheriff, in New York State, is mandated by state constitution. No other police agency is mandated by state constitution. State law states that cities/towns/villages MAY have a police department, it does not require them to do so.

All police must meet the same six month academy requirements. The state police run their own academy. Local municipal police and sheriff deputies train at regional type academies run by community colleges or sheriff offices.

If you want to be a road patrol deputy you must take the New York State Civil Service police exam and get on a hiring list. All police agencies (within counties) hire off same list. If you want to work in a county Sheriff jail you have to take the New York State Civil Service corrections exam.

There is a difference in status of jail deputies and road deputies: jail deps are peace officers, while road deps are police officers.

There really is not much difference in arrest powers except peace officers become civilians when off duty and are limited to geopolitical jurisdiction; police officers maintain arrest powers all over the state and while off duty.

It's no different up here than PA . . . the state police do everything they can to eliminate Sheriffs' road patrols. They jump our calls, etc.. So, I am not surprised at all that PSP are fighting the Sheriffs' having police powers in PA.

In New York State, Sheriff Offices patrol towns and villages that do not have their own police department; but patrols are not dedicated to a particular municipality unless a municipality contracts for dedicated patrol. Our agency has one village that contracts for dedicated patrol.

Sheriffs are the least expensive police services, here in New York. So, because of the economy, towns are beginning to abolish PDs and contract with Sheriff Offices, for police services. As in other northeastern states, every square mile of New York is incorporated; however, that did nothing to reduce the office of sheriff. The office of Sheriff was the first police agency in every county and still functions as it did when it was created in the late 1700s.

We also know our patrol communities well and our deputies know the "usual suspects" because we are not moved around; we work near our homes. The state police move their troopers around so they never get the chance to know their communities well.

Best wishes to PA Sheriffs' Offices.

AREP87
03-26-2009, 01:03 PM
This post has been removed.

Spartan75
03-26-2009, 04:41 PM
Some information i gathered about PA sheriff's offices, this is coming from deputy sheriff's themselves. Sheriff's in the state of PA do have statutory arrest powers, are considered LEO's and are covered under HR. 218 (LEOSA.) The training they receive is almost identical to Police officers.

What kind of "source" told you that?

I don't think the Pennsylvania Sheriffs’ Association has gotten the memo on that. Maybe you should tell them, because no one else has!

irishlad2nv
03-26-2009, 06:46 PM
Some information i gathered about PA sheriff's offices, this is coming from deputy sheriff's themselves. Sheriff's in the state of PA do have statutory arrest powers, are considered LEO's and are covered under HR. 218 (LEOSA.) The training they receive is almost identical to Police officers.

And you can back this up how? By word of mouth?

timtim
03-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Some information i gathered about PA sheriff's offices, this is coming from deputy sheriff's themselves. Sheriff's in the state of PA do have statutory arrest powers, are considered LEO's and are covered under HR. 218 (LEOSA.) The training they receive is almost identical to Police officers.


FACT: Only 1 Sheriffs Dept. has Statutory Arrest Authority in PA (Allehgany)
FACT: PA Sheriff Association is currently fighting for that authority for all others
FACT: You were bamboozled.

Stat Author. is needed they don't have it, everyone saying they do need to stop. It is fact they don't. I'm not a Sheriff hater i'm a facts person. I think they should be full rec. LEOs' personaly.

MEDIC734
03-28-2009, 05:32 PM
Tripwire11:

Please check Private Messages!

Thanks!
John

AREP87
03-29-2009, 11:06 AM
This post has been removed.

fedguy889
03-29-2009, 11:12 AM
Pennsylvania Constables are covered under HR 218 if you don't believe that look up the major case where a pa constable was in NY carrying, and was arrested and the charges were dropped and the judge ruled the Constable was covered under the LEOSA act. PA state constables are contracted by the sheriff's department to do work for them. Sheriff's and constables are covered under this act.

Yep Constables are covered and they are considered LE in PA. NOT all sheriff departments contract out COnstables. They mainly work for their district judge. By statute constables have arrest authority, so that makes them covered under LEOSA.

Again Sheriff's in PA (except Allegheny Co) are NOT considered LE by PASC. Read the case law on it, therefor they are NOT covered. It is plain and simple. They do NOT have statutory authority (again case law on this), so they CANNOT be covered under LEOSA, as that is one of the main things you need to be covered.

Cacique
03-29-2009, 11:47 AM
lol

Okay Fedguy, you're half right.

Ponder this.

PA Constables basic training is a mere 80 hours. But in your eyes, THEY are considered law enforcement??


PA Deputy Sheriff's basic training is 760 hours, which includes everything that the act 120 offers except for a wiretapping course that the state police is too stingy to teach. In PA, BOTH Constables, Sheriff's and their deputies are considered law enforcement. They BOTH have arrest powers without a warrant for crimes commited in their presence. They both have "arrest on view" powers but it does NOT empower them to make arrest AFTER the crime is commited, or crimes that they did not observe directly. And YES, they are BOTH covered under the LEOSA act for this reason.

These are the "facts", and the police officers in this thread should do a little research before posting inaccurate information.

timtim
03-29-2009, 11:52 AM
Constables are a seperate breed, but are considered LEOs' by PA but not to the extent of Police and Detectives. They have made warrentless arrest that have been upheld by the State Supreme Court, however, the Supreme Court always comes back to say their authority is similar to a Citizen. They can not perform traffic stops at least regarding to enforce traffic law. Persiuts are unlikly since most don't have the proper equipment.

Others have themselves confused, sheriffs are considered LEOs' in PA along w/ Constables. The thing is they are not fully recognized by the State as Police and Detectives. They can in fact charge you w/ a crime such as escape, resisting arrest and so on.

When it comes down to arresting and detaining for warrentless criminal acts they are covered. However, they will not charge, they will turn over to the proper jurisdiction for them to charge. There are even times the DA has accepted charges directly from them. Constables do mainly work for District Courts but some also work for Sheriffs and are paid to do County Bench Warrants.

The principle duties for Sheriffs and Constables are the Courts but have protection as an LEO if assulted and so on. No they are not the Police but you act up in front of one you won't get the case tossed because they detained (arrested) you.

H.R. 218 has strict requirements, yes Constables may meet them, but once again Sheriffs do not. I have yot to meet an out of State Cop that would hem up a Deputy Sheriff, mainly because they would automaticly think they are covered. But if that Deputy ever had to resort to deadly force out of state and a good lawyer caught it, it could pose a problem.

timtim
03-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Training is irrelavant, if a constable is certified they are certified. However, they now have a firearms course to carry while performing duties. If they do not meet that course I don't think H.R. 218 would cover them.

By the way there are several States that still allow Officers to work up to 3 years w/o an academy on full duty. They are covered as LEOs' so ponder that. again training is irrelivant authority is what stands.

Cacique
03-29-2009, 02:30 PM
TimTim, you make good points on your post. Especially about how the DA
has accepted charges that were made by Deputy Sheriffs, this CAN happen and depending on the size of your county, the DA will support their Sheriff's department. But I disagree with you that training is irrelavant. And that if Constables are covered under HR218, you best assure that Deputy Sheriff's will be as well.

But to to add to your post, Deputy Sheriffs CAN enforce the Motor Vehicle Code if properly trained. In Commonwealth Vs. Leet, this affirms this authority and also is the reason why the 48 hour course was added to the Deputy Training Curriculum. The Supreme Court was ruled that this "authority" is withstanding as long as the officer is trained on the proper procedures. So in other words, it doesn't matter if you if you got the training through the Act 120, or the Basic Deputy Sheriff's Training Course, the Deputy Sheriff can "technically" charge you with a motor vehicle code violation -- again this is not to say that they will.

timtim
03-29-2009, 03:48 PM
TimTim, you make good points on your post. Especially about how the DA
has accepted charges that were made by Deputy Sheriffs, this CAN happen and depending on the size of your county, the DA will support their Sheriff's department. But I disagree with you that training is irrelavant. And that if Constables are covered under HR218, you best assure that Deputy Sheriff's will be as well.

But to to add to your post, Deputy Sheriffs CAN enforce the Motor Vehicle Code if properly trained. In Commonwealth Vs. Leet, this affirms this authority and also is the reason why the 48 hour course was added to the Deputy Training Curriculum. The Supreme Court was ruled that this "authority" is withstanding as long as the officer is trained on the proper procedures. So in other words, it doesn't matter if you if you got the training through the Act 120, or the Basic Deputy Sheriff's Training Course, the Deputy Sheriff can "technically" charge you with a motor vehicle code violation -- again this is not to say that they will.

I apoligize, I wasn't clear on the training part. I was only refering to H.R. 218 on that. I am not a Lawyer so Sheriffs may be covered under 218 but my opinion is no (lacking Statutory requirment) it is only my opinion. Yes, Sheriffs can enforce and issue traffic citations, so long as they have recieved the training. This was upheld by the PA Courts as several people attempted to appeal citations from sheriffs, they were all up held.

None of us will ever agree about Sheriffs and Constables until the Courts or PA House issue what their exact authority is. Either way you won't catch me disrespecting either it came down to it, the Courts will protect them so long as they were reasonable in there actions. Subtracting motor vehicle caode from constables.

fedguy889
03-30-2009, 12:06 AM
lol

Okay Fedguy, you're half right.

Ponder this.

PA Constables basic training is a mere 80 hours. But in your eyes, THEY are considered law enforcement??


PA Deputy Sheriff's basic training is 760 hours, which includes everything that the act 120 offers except for a wiretapping course that the state police is too stingy to teach. In PA, BOTH Constables, Sheriff's and their deputies are considered law enforcement. They BOTH have arrest powers without a warrant for crimes commited in their presence. They both have "arrest on view" powers but it does NOT empower them to make arrest AFTER the crime is commited, or crimes that they did not observe directly. And YES, they are BOTH covered under the LEOSA act for this reason.

These are the "facts", and the police officers in this thread should do a little research before posting inaccurate information.

Actually here are the facts, read it and do what you will with the info:

Support PA Sheriffs (http://www.supportpasheriffs.org/)


sheriffs' common law authority allows only for arrests for breaches of the peace and felonies committed in their presence - authority "no different than a private citizen.”

AREP87
03-30-2009, 07:57 AM
This post has been removed.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Actually here are the facts, read it and do what you will with the info:

Support PA Sheriffs (http://www.supportpasheriffs.org/)

The Dobbins case has been quoted out of context in this thread to neaseam. And all those quotes are in relation to the authority to arrest lawfully in regards to the wiretapping act -- which once again I'll re-state, Sheriffs have no authority to do so. That's it, that's the bottom line of that entire Dobbins case. But people want to blow it out of proportion.

And the HB 466 was created to CLARIFY and BROADEN Sheriff's police powers. It was not created to GRANT law enforcement authority. Sheriffs common law authority has been around even before the creation of the state police, and it's not going anywhere.

fedguy889
03-30-2009, 10:45 AM
The Dobbins case has been quoted out of context in this thread to neaseam. And all those quotes are in relation to the authority to arrest lawfully in regards to the wiretapping act -- which once again I'll re-state, Sheriffs have no authority to do so. That's it, that's the bottom line of that entire Dobbins case. But people want to blow it out of proportion.

And the HB 466 was created to CLARIFY and BROADEN Sheriff's police powers. It was not created to GRANT law enforcement authority. Sheriffs common law authority has been around even before the creation of the state police, and it's not going anywhere.

Only problem with this is: Common Law and Statutory are different. And to be covered under LEOSA you need the latter, which clearly they don't have, as you point out they only have comman law. So in a round about way, you just agreed with me that they don't have the authority to carry under LEOSA.

http://www.wctc.edu/busocc/law/comstat.html


And I don't see anyone can take this quote out of context:

sheriffs' common law authority allows only for arrests for breaches of the peace and felonies committed in their presence - authority "no different than a private citizen.”

According to you the private citizen would be covered under LEOSA as well.

I am done with this thread..its getting as bad as the DoA thread...

Think whatever you want to think and I shall do the same.

timtim
03-30-2009, 12:01 PM
The Dobbins case has been quoted out of context in this thread to neaseam. And all those quotes are in relation to the authority to arrest lawfully in regards to the wiretapping act -- which once again I'll re-state, Sheriffs have no authority to do so. That's it, that's the bottom line of that entire Dobbins case. But people want to blow it out of proportion.

And the HB 466 was created to CLARIFY and BROADEN Sheriff's police powers. It was not created to GRANT law enforcement authority. Sheriffs common law authority has been around even before the creation of the state police, and it's not going anywhere.

Sir, common law and statutory are infact 2 seperate entities. You appear to be justifing deputies under common law not statutory.noone is arguing that they can make arrest and that's what your links prove. None show a state statute with their authority in it, because there is none. Just because constables maybe covered dosnt mean sheriffs are. Constables arrest authority is state statute. Sheriffs are common law aka common sense. That does not meet the requirement set forth by congress definition. Their authrity must appear in state statute and as of today it does not. Your are basing your opinion on court decisions that does not relate to 218. Read 218 and the requirements then show me where in PA statutes sheriffs have that authority, not a pa court saying they can make arrest. Joe who lives 3 doors down from me can make an arrest.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 01:12 PM
Only problem with this is: Common Law and Statutory are different. And to be covered under LEOSA you need the latter, which clearly they don't have, as you point out they only have comman law. So in a round about way, you just agreed with me that they don't have the authority to carry under LEOSA.

http://www.wctc.edu/busocc/law/comstat.html


And I don't see anyone can take this quote out of context:


According to you the private citizen would be covered under LEOSA as well.

I am done with this thread..its getting as bad as the DoA thread...

Think whatever you want to think and I shall do the same.

There IS an absolute difference between Common law and Statutory Law. In my comment I was referring to the sheriff's original authority to enforce laws dating back since to the 1700's. Sheriff's being the ORIGINAL law enforcement officers. And although it is not specifically written anywhere that they qualify to carry under HR 218, that does not disqualify sheriff's from doing so. As in the case with the Constable from NY. No where was it written that he can't carry under HR 218, but the higher courts still decided in his favor. And there is NO ONE that will ever convince me that Constables are "more law enforcement" than Sheriff's.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 01:19 PM
Constables arrest authority is state statute. .

That is absolutely NOT true.

AvalancheZ71
03-30-2009, 01:39 PM
There IS an absolute difference between Common law and Statutory Law. In my comment I was referring to the sheriff's original authority to enforce laws dating back since to the 1700's. Sheriff's being the ORIGINAL law enforcement officers. And although it is not specifically written anywhere that they qualify to carry under HR 218, that does not disqualify sheriff's from doing so. As in the case with the Constable from NY. No where was it written that he can't carry under HR 218, but the higher courts still decided in his favor. And there is NO ONE that will ever convince me that Constables are "more law enforcement" than Sheriff's.

Constables were the original law enforcement.

timtim
03-30-2009, 01:45 PM
That is absolutely NOT true.

I'm sorry but yes it is. Pennsylvania Title 13 (PA Code) is constable authority. It speciffcly states they may arrest and bring forthwith. Look it up! You are either winging this whole thing or just playen games.

AvalancheZ71
03-30-2009, 01:56 PM
That is absolutely NOT true.

It is TRUE, look at Purdon's Code.

13 P.S. § 45

Purdon's Pennsylvania Statutes and Consolidated Statutes Currentness
Title 13 P.S. Constables (Refs & Annos)

Chapter 4. Duties and Liabilities (Refs & Annos)

§ 45. Arrest of offenders on view



The policemen and constables of the several boroughs of this commonwealth, in addition to the powers already conferred upon them, shall and may, without warrant and upon view, arrest and commit for hearing any and all persons guilty of a breach of the peace, vagrancy, riotous or disorderly conduct or drunkenness, or may be engaged in the commission of any unlawful act tending to imperil the personal security or endanger the property of the citizens, or violating any ordinances of said borough, for the violation of which a fine or penalty is imposed.

CREDIT(S)

1897, June 4, P.L. 121, § 1.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 02:10 PM
I'm sorry but yes it is. Pennsylvania Title 13 (PA Code) is constable authority. It speciffcly states they may arrest and bring forthwith. Look it up! You are either winging this whole thing or just playen games.


Timtim, I certainly not "winging" this or playing games. I'm not here for that. What I know is from having discussions with sheriffs, both in person and via email. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I'm not going to just sit and watch as people post misinformation.

Back to Penn Title 13, I've tried to get it online without luck. You say that constables "may arrest and bring forthwith."

But haven't we concluded that Sheriff's can do that also?

Cacique
03-30-2009, 02:12 PM
It is TRUE, look at Purdon's Code.

13 P.S. § 45

Purdon's Pennsylvania Statutes and Consolidated Statutes Currentness
Title 13 P.S. Constables (Refs & Annos)

Chapter 4. Duties and Liabilities (Refs & Annos)

§ 45. Arrest of offenders on view



The policemen and constables of the several boroughs of this commonwealth, in addition to the powers already conferred upon them, shall and may, without warrant and upon view, arrest and commit for hearing any and all persons guilty of a breach of the peace, vagrancy, riotous or disorderly conduct or drunkenness, or may be engaged in the commission of any unlawful act tending to imperil the personal security or endanger the property of the citizens, or violating any ordinances of said borough, for the violation of which a fine or penalty is imposed.

CREDIT(S)

1897, June 4, P.L. 121, § 1.


Sheriff's and their deputies have the SAME powers. We've already gone throught this. Sheriff's have warrantless "on view" powers, just like constables.

timtim
03-30-2009, 02:31 PM
Timtim, I certainly not "winging" this or playing games. I'm not here for that. What I know is from having discussions with sheriffs, both in person and via email. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I'm not going to just sit and watch as people post misinformation.

Back to Penn Title 13, I've tried to get it online without luck. You say that constables "may arrest and bring forthwith."

But haven't we concluded that Sheriff's can do that also?

1) Yes sheriffs can but it is not in PA Code which is a requirment for 218. 2) because a sheriff told u they can dosn"t make it so. 3) my PD was sued 3 times becuase the chief said " we can do something" well guess what we couldn't and lost. 4)common law again is not statutory, statutory is a requirement and that is what saved the constable in NY. Sheriffs common law is their authority not statutory and sheriffs telling u otherwise dosent change what's in the law. Also, u said my st*tement about constables statutory authority was completly false, but is 100 percent true (w/proof), so I stand my ground and think you are just plqaying games here. You have not presented one relivant piece of info as to why sheriffs would b covered. Constables are (per ny) but sheriffs arnt per 218.its right there on paper for all to see.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 03:08 PM
1) Yes sheriffs can but it is not in PA Code which is a requirment for 218.

Just because the Constable's "arrest on view" powers appears on the PA Code does not automatically convert them into FULL statutory arrest powers, one of the requirements for carring inder hr 218. Contsables do not have the neccessary forms to file a criminal complaint, so they don't have FULL arrest powers.

Some Sheriffs department CAN and DO file criminal complaints.

AvalancheZ71
03-30-2009, 03:12 PM
First, not all constables have problems filling out complaint forms. Second, the statute doesn't say that they lose the power to do so if they cannot fill out a complaint form. Third the presvious aforementioned statute of Purdon's Code allows constables to qualify under HR 218 under the statutory neccessity clause. They also need to qualify under the schemes of the statute.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 03:50 PM
First, not all constables have problems filling out complaint forms.

I'm not saying they can't fill out complaint forms, but they'll have a hard time processing them. Constables are not given ORI numbers, nor do they have access to ncic/jnet becuase they are not "agency/departments." Sheriff's in PA are granted ORI #'s are are considered "agency/department."


Second, the statute doesn't say that they lose the power to do so if they cannot fill out a complaint form. Third the presvious aforementioned statute of Purdon's Code allows constables to qualify under HR 218 under the statutory neccessity clause. They also need to qualify under the schemes of the statute.

Purdons Code allows them to arrest "on view." Doesn't say anything about CHARGING offenders because they simply can't. They have to turn the offenders over to local police authorities. Also, no where in the PA State Code does it mention about Sheriff's being allowed to enforce motor vehicle code, but we can all agree that they can. Understand where I'm going with this?

timtim
03-30-2009, 03:58 PM
Just because the Constable's "arrest on view" powers appears on the PA Code does not automatically convert them into FULL statutory arrest powers, one of the requirements for carring inder hr 218. Contsables do not have the neccessary forms to file a criminal complaint, so they don't have FULL arrest powers.

Some Sheriffs department CAN and DO file criminal complaints.

So do some constables. It is up to the DA and infact northhampton county gives certain constables the paperwork for such. The majority do not, but in fact some still do. There are not many DAs' that will let a Constable do it and many have the perception they can't. I know 4 constables that have filed such charges but they have an excellent relationship with county pds' and the DA.Not one of those cases werelost do to lack of abiltiy or authority. Only one was lost but the DA decided to drop it after they cooperated. So infact the ability/authority is there its just many are blocked from using it.

Spartan75
03-30-2009, 04:30 PM
The sheriff and their deputies do not have statutory authority; therefore they cannot carry under HR 218. They can get a CCW for PA, but they cannot carry the same as a police officer can. End of story. Read the law! I don’t care what a deputy told you, he/she is wrong if they think the can carry under HR 218!

ALL OF THESE MUST BE MEET!


(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;
(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;
(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;
(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;
(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

Cacique
03-30-2009, 04:33 PM
So do some constables. It is up to the DA and infact northhampton county gives certain constables the paperwork for such. The majority do not, but in fact some still do. There are not many DAs' that will let a Constable do it and many have the perception they can't. I know 4 constables that have filed such charges but they have an excellent relationship with county pds' and the DA.Not one of those cases werelost do to lack of abiltiy or authority. Only one was lost but the DA decided to drop it after they cooperated. So infact the ability/authority is there its just many are blocked from using it.


Gotcha, makes perfect sense. Just like some sheriff's do not have full support of their DA, so their "police powers" are limited. I guess the same idealogy applies to constables. It's a funny state, this Pennsylvania.

timtim
03-30-2009, 05:44 PM
Gotcha, makes perfect sense. Just like some sheriff's do not have full support of their DA, so their "police powers" are limited. I guess the same idealogy applies to constables. It's a funny state, this Pennsylvania.

And that's why this state has the problems that they do. Pretty much all your other states have the same positions with a specific job but they are all recognized police officers, but they all get the same training. That is one of the problems here.

PPDSWD
03-30-2009, 09:20 PM
What problems does this state have? I think the system works fine. The sheriffs do their thing, the constables do theirs, and the police theirs, and we all live in harmony.

whyme1977
03-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Timtim, I certainly not "winging" this or playing games. I'm not here for that. What I know is from having discussions with sheriffs, both in person and via email. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I'm not going to just sit and watch as people post misinformation.

Back to Penn Title 13, I've tried to get it online without luck. You say that constables "may arrest and bring forthwith."

But haven't we concluded that Sheriff's can do that also?

Thats your problem, you are getting your information from sheriffs. I was just reading several different sheriffs websites from various counties in PA. I found a few where the sheriff claims he is the chief law enforcement officer of the county and has the same arrest powers as the state and municipal police. Thats just not true, but because they wrote it, you believe it.

Just curious, what does statutory powers of arrest mean to you?

AREP87
03-31-2009, 11:02 AM
This post has been removed.

Kreigerhunde
04-18-2009, 07:30 PM
Hey guys whats up?? I hope this is the right place to ask this..I didn't want to start a new thread on this .

I was talking to a friend that was told House Bill HR 466 is on the verge of being Pasted! is this just a rumor or is something really going on with this?? Thanx!!

fedguy889
04-18-2009, 07:45 PM
Hey guys whats up?? I hope this is the right place to ask this..I didn't want to start a new thread on this .

I was talking to a friend that was told House Bill HR 466 is on the verge of being Pasted! is this just a rumor or is something really going on with this?? Thanx!!

It was referred to the Judiciary on Mar 11, 2009. Here is the problem though; It isn't the same bill as in 2007.
HB466 Session of 2009 deals with:
Amending Title 42 (Judiciary and Judicial Procedure) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, imposing a surcharge in cases involving local police action.
Nothing in it states anything about Sheriff's Authority. Just talkes about surcharges for local police actions. Nothing whatsoever about sheriffs

HB466 Session of 2009 (http://http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=DOC&sessYr=2009&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0466&pn=0996)

HB466 Session of 2007 (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2007&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0466&pn=0528)

tanklizard
04-18-2009, 09:05 PM
It was referred to the Judiciary on Mar 11, 2009. Here is the problem though; It isn't the same bill as in 2007.
HB466 Session of 2009 deals with:
Amending Title 42 (Judiciary and Judicial Procedure) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, imposing a surcharge in cases involving local police action.
Nothing in it states anything about Sheriff's Authority. Just talkes about surcharges for local police actions. Nothing whatsoever about sheriffs

HB466 Session of 2009 (http://http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=DOC&sessYr=2009&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0466&pn=0996)

HB466 Session of 2007 (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2007&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0466&pn=0528)

fedguy,
I think they restart the numbering process with every session so that HB 466 of the 2009-2010 Session (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2009&sind=0&body=H&type=B&BN=0466) would be a different bill from HB 466 of the 2007-2008 Session (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2007&sind=0&body=H&type=B&BN=0466) rather than being an extension of it. Not only is the language completely different but the bills have different prime sponsors, Rep. Daily for the 2007 bill and Rep Conklin for the 2009 bill.

fedguy889
04-18-2009, 09:28 PM
fedguy,
I think they restart the numbering process with every session so that HB 466 of the 2009-2010 Session (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2009&sind=0&body=H&type=B&BN=0466) would be a different bill from HB 466 of the 2007-2008 Session (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2007&sind=0&body=H&type=B&BN=0466) rather than being an extension of it. Not only is the language completely different but the bills have different prime sponsors, Rep. Daily for the 2007 bill and Rep Conklin for the 2009 bill.

Hence the reason I stated:

It isn't the same bill as in 2007. :D

tanklizard
04-18-2009, 09:43 PM
Hence the reason I stated:
:D

Yeah, yah got me. :(:D

Yah gotta wonder about the quality of the bills the Legislature is introducing if they'd already introduced 466 of them by mid-March.

Also, how many hours are you ahead in Afghanistan? We were 8 hours ahead in Iraq and it was a royal pain.

fedguy889
04-18-2009, 09:47 PM
Yeah, yah got me. :(:D

Yah gotta wonder about the quality of the bills the Legislature is introducing if they'd already introduced 466 of them by mid-March.

Also, how many hours are you ahead in Afghanistan? We were 8 hours ahead in Iraq and it was a royal pain.


Probably all crap bills!!

Well Afghanistan wants to be different then all the other cess-poles so we are currently 8.5 hours ahead. Its 0616 right now and I have 2 more hours left in my 16 hour day. Time to go hit the great Dfac!!! :(

Kreigerhunde
04-19-2009, 11:05 AM
OK... Well has anyone heard anything about the 2007 HB 466 Passing??

fedguy889
04-19-2009, 12:56 PM
OK... Well has anyone heard anything about the 2007 HB 466 Passing??

It never passed and it won't pass. Its over 2 years old and would need to be re-introduced. And seeing as they didn't incorporate it into this newest bill, I wouldn't hold your breath.

timtim
04-19-2009, 03:36 PM
Even if it gets reintroduced, passed and signed it will make no diffrence. Why? Constables have statutory authority and most DA offices will not accept charging documents from them. If PSP looses the battle at the Capitol, they will throw their weight at DA offices and the Supreme Court to be sure they don't have simple access and easy ways to charge and/or write citations. Yes, I already know some do and some Counties will accept charges from Constables. I am refering to the fact that they could rent themselves out as the Police to make money. Anyhow, it would be a win checkmark for them and H.R. 218

throwback44
04-30-2009, 11:08 AM
AR, I have been on the job for 4 years now, I am retired military. Its a great job for me, no shift work yet. However, if you are young and just getting started law enforcement it could be a great place to start. You can look at the PA Sheriff Web Site to get a better idea the different between Act 2 and Act 120, Act 2 is 19 weeks at Penn State in State College, PA. The 2 biggest job that deputies do are prisoner transports and civil papers (serving PFAs, Writ of Execution, Court papers). My county, we do a little of everything because our DA support our office. ( Drug Taskforce, K-9, SWAT, DUI Check Points and Traffic). It just depends on the Sheriff and DA of the county, York County is very proactive. Some counties are in my words lazy, still on the good old boy system, they do as little as possible. Myself and others deputies have no problem with working PSP and other Police departments in my county.

Can you tell me if York is hiring? What is it like there? Are you guys full service or are you just more pro active than most other departments? Any help would be great thanks. Also what requirement's do thet require? I have a degree in business with a major in CJ.

fedguy889
04-30-2009, 12:09 PM
Can you tell me if York is hiring? What is it like there? Are you guys full service or are you just more pro active than most other departments? Any help would be great thanks. Also what requirement's do thet require? I have a degree in business with a major in CJ.

They were a little bit ago, looking for 20 deputies and I highly doubt they got them. No they are NOT full service. Go here for more info and give them a call:

http://ycwebserver.york-county.org/sheriff/index.html

Tripwire11
04-30-2009, 08:23 PM
York county has deputies in every class at Penn State, they are very proactive. Do you know the different between act 2 and act 120? I think you will see act 2 go away in the next 5 years, and we will all be 120. Probably the best thing that could happen in this state. I can tell you this, the instructors in the firearms and DT at Penn State are, Deputies, Cops, Troopers and Probation Officers. And guess what, the program works!!!

fedguy889
04-30-2009, 08:31 PM
York county has deputies in every class at Penn State, they are very proactive. Do you know the different between act 2 and act 120? I think you will see act 2 go away in the next 5 years, and we will all be 120. Probably the best thing that could happen in this state. I can tell you this, the instructors in the firearms and DT at Penn State are, Deputies, Cops, Troopers and Probation Officers. And guess what, the program works!!!

Proactive and full service are totally different and York County is not full service. Yeah they have a new "street unit" and all, but that doesn't make them full service, neither does working task forces. And the current sheriff will never get his 20 deputies at the current pay rate and status of deputies in PA.

And I do not see ACT 2 going away in the next 5 years at all. Not saying it shouldn't, just don't see it.

tanklizard
04-30-2009, 11:23 PM
And I do not see ACT 2 going away in the next 5 years at all. Not saying it shouldn't, just don't see it.


Yeah, the only way Act 2 would go away is for the Legislature to repel it and for that to happen they would actually have to do something. They can do an extensive study of a subject but when it comes time to act they seem to fall short. In the late 90's they formed the HR 167 Task Force (http://www.lgc.state.pa.us/task.html) to make recommendations for improving local policing. The Task Force spent two years studying Law Enforcement in PA and released their report in 1999. The first recommendation they made was:

1. Development of a uniform basic training program for criminal justice professionals. The Task Force recommends that the General Assembly create a core basic training module to be used by all of the following categories of criminal justice professionals:

- municipal police

- deputy sheriffs

- constables

- state and county probation and parole officers

- campus police

- agents of the Bureau of Criminal Investigation and the Bureau of Narcotics Investigators within the Attorney General’s Office

- Allegheny County park police

- other park police

- Capitol police

- park rangers/state forest officers within the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources

- county detectives

- municipal authority police

- police officers from the Delaware River Port Authority, Allegheny County Port Authority, Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority, Pittsburgh Housing Authority, and Philadelphia Housing Authority.

The Task Force further recommends that advanced training modules be established for each category of criminal justice professionals. The advanced training modules would be unique to each class of professionals. This training program would be established under a unified, expanded training commission, most likely the Municipal Police Officers’ Education and Training Commission, with the name of the Commission amended to reflect its larger role. In addition, the Task Force discussed the existence of the federal Police Corps Program, administered by the United States Department of Justice, and recommends further review of the program and the feasibility of implementing the Police Corps in Pennsylvania.

Unfortunately the Legislature never acted on it.

If you've got the time to read it the report itself is pretty interesting. It covers all the different types of Law Enforcement in PA, what their powers were in 1999, and what laws they draw those powers from. There are also numerous related reports (http://www.lgc.state.pa.us/reports.html) that the main report was based on that go into detail about specific types of Law Enforcement in PA.

fedguy889
04-30-2009, 11:41 PM
Yeah, the only way Act 2 would go away is for the Legislature to repel it and for that to happen they would actually have to do something.

They aren't going to either...

DEcop989
05-01-2009, 02:57 PM
No mention of corrections. Worst thing about Penna LE is the same as MD LE 0 0 Corrections is not considered a part of the apparatus

fedguy889
05-01-2009, 05:10 PM
No mention of corrections. Worst thing about Penna LE is the same as MD LE 0 0 Corrections is not considered a part of the apparatus

HAAAA, they can't even get the Sheriff's status straight! I really really never see them ever changing Corrections status in this Commonwealth.

throwback44
05-01-2009, 11:25 PM
York county has deputies in every class at Penn State, they are very proactive. Do you know the different between act 2 and act 120? I think you will see act 2 go away in the next 5 years, and we will all be 120. Probably the best thing that could happen in this state. I can tell you this, the instructors in the firearms and DT at Penn State are, Deputies, Cops, Troopers and Probation Officers. And guess what, the program works!!!


Thanks for the information, I do not really know the difference between the act 2 and act 120? Actually I do not even know what these mean? I assume these are training acts? So I have to go to penn state to the academy? Wow, that is like 4 hrs or so from me, I guess if i can get a cheap place around there it would work out. I am going to apply for york next week. Do you know who I need to talk to? What are your hours? I mean I really do not mind just curious...Thanks

fedguy889
05-01-2009, 11:48 PM
Thanks for the information, I do not really know the difference between the act 2 and act 120? Actually I do not even know what these mean? I assume these are training acts? So I have to go to penn state to the academy? Wow, that is like 4 hrs or so from me, I guess if i can get a cheap place around there it would work out. I am going to apply for york next week. Do you know who I need to talk to? What are your hours? I mean I really do not mind just curious...Thanks


Go here for more info and give them a call:
http://ycwebserver.york-county.org/sheriff/index.html

THey are hiring 7 right now:

YORK COUNTY HIRING (http://www.york-county.org/departments/hr/Positions.htm)

Cacique
05-02-2009, 10:11 AM
THey are hiring 7 right now:

YORK COUNTY HIRING (http://www.york-county.org/departments/hr/Positions.htm)

"The position of Deputy Sheriff is a law enforcement position requiring advanced education and/or experience and training. A Deputy Sheriff is a sworn law enforcement officer charged to uphold the laws of the County of York, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the United States of America. A Deputy Sheriff's primary responsiblity is the the courts. However, a Deputy is vested with full arrest powers and may make arrest as necessary in the performance of his/her duties..."

Now, now, let's not open that can of worms again...:D

;)

fedguy889
05-02-2009, 10:40 AM
"The position of Deputy Sheriff is a law enforcement position requiring advanced education and/or experience and training. A Deputy Sheriff is a sworn law enforcement officer charged to uphold the laws of the County of York, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the United States of America. A Deputy Sheriff's primary responsiblity is the the courts. However, a Deputy is vested with full arrest powers and may make arrest as necessary in the performance of his/her duties..."

Now, now, let's not open that can of worms again...:D

;)

Yeah this is the same Sheriff that says you MUST notify LEO that you are carrying a weapon and that "unnecessary display of your firearm in public places can cause alarm to the public and may result in revocation of your permit."

You opened it.. and thats the only response I am going to give you about your thoughts.

Tripwire11
05-02-2009, 01:34 PM
As far as staying in State College all deputies stay at a hotel down town, PCCD takes care of everything, your county pays you travel mileage. You drive up Sunday afternoon, leave Friday when class is over, same thing for 19 weeks. Your meals are also taken care of by a issued meal card.

leadinspector
05-04-2009, 10:01 AM
Hi everybody does anyone have info on delaware county deputy sheriff like how to get in the dept and is the trouble worth it? I would be thankful for any help.

orlandofed5-0
05-04-2009, 06:02 PM
Hi everybody does anyone have info on delaware county deputy sheriff like how to get in the dept and is the trouble worth it? I would be thankful for any help.

Yes. How much do you donate to the Delco democrats.

Cacique
05-04-2009, 06:08 PM
As far as staying in State College all deputies stay at a hotel down town, PCCD takes care of everything, your county pays you travel mileage. You drive up Sunday afternoon, leave Friday when class is over, same thing for 19 weeks. Your meals are also taken care of by a issued meal card.

Were you allowed to stay the weekend at your own expense? Also, how's the mealcard work, can you eat whenever or wherever you want, or only at set times and places.

Thanks.

leadinspector
05-04-2009, 06:43 PM
I thought delco is a republican county?

leadinspector
05-04-2009, 06:59 PM
Yes. How much do you donate to the Delco democrats.

None but i thought delco was a republican county? Do you know how any LE depts that are hiring and will send you to school for act 120. I was a correctional officer for about 3years now i want to get back into law enforcement.

Cacique
05-04-2009, 07:26 PM
None but i thought delco was a republican county? Do you know how any LE depts that are hiring and will send you to school for act 120. I was a correctional officer for about 3years now i want to get back into law enforcement.

As a rule, most of the bigger cities (Phili, Pittsburg, Harrisburg, Allentown) in this state will pay for your ACT120. Some small towns will too, you'll just have to look at the requirements for each department.

leadinspector
05-05-2009, 12:53 PM
As a rule, most of the bigger cities (Phili, Pittsburg, Harrisburg, Allentown) in this state will pay for your ACT120. Some small towns will too, you'll just have to look at the requirements for each department.

Hey thank you i'am going to to start checking around.

orlandofed5-0
05-05-2009, 06:08 PM
None but i thought delco was a republican county? Do you know how any LE depts that are hiring and will send you to school for act 120. I was a correctional officer for about 3years now i want to get back into law enforcement.

But the sheriff is a democrat and Delco is pretty big for the play to pay. Try applying to Delco park police.

As far as Act 120 for school, outside of a few of the larger townships and Chester, you wont find much.

leadinspector
05-05-2009, 08:02 PM
But the sheriff is a democrat and Delco is pretty big for the play to pay. Try applying to Delco park police.

As far as Act 120 for school, outside of a few of the larger townships and Chester, you wont find much.

Thanks for the info i never thought about the park police

tp2165
05-06-2009, 09:12 AM
Alot of sheriffs in PA have ZERO full service law enforcement experience. How are they qualified to conduct full service operations? Alot, not all, alot of deputies I have come in contact with were unable to get hired by full service police departments and it shows. Others I have met are just using it as a stepping stone, retired police officers or joes that retired from any and all work related backgrounds! I feel the ones pushing so hard and continuing this go no where thread are the wannebes who can't get hired by real police departments. After all $18,000 a year is going to attract qualified candidates. But hey, some sheriff offices are proactive:eek:

leadinspector
05-06-2009, 02:21 PM
First, let me say that Sheriff deputies are no less important (and no more important) than a police officer. I respect their jobs, just as I do police jobs. I have no problem working with Sheriff Deputies. For that matter I enjoy working with ANYBODY, sworn or civilian, who aids in making our streets safer for society. With that said...

Arguing over the powers of the Sheriffs in PA is getting to be a little ridiculous. Sheriff deputies knew (or at least should have known) their limitations when they accepted the job. Don't try to change your job description/responsibility simply because you want to do something else.

If you want "police" powers (traffic stops, filing charges, etc) then become a policeman. If you want "court" powers (serve papers, provide courtroom security, etc.) then become a Sheriff deputy. Whew! That was hard to figure out.

Hey did you know that corrections officers in delaware, south carolina etc all have police powers?
Every time someone on this forum cries that Sheriff deputies should have police powers, it makes me chuckle. What's next? Giving corrections officers police powers too? Giving the coroner the authority to do traffic stops? Letting fire plice serve warrants? Allowing city trash collectors to perform open heart surgery? It's absurd.

It's simple. I'll say it again. If you want police powers, become a policeman/woman. If you want the authority of a Sheriff, become a Sheriff deputy. Whatever you do, do NOT accept a job position, and try to change it's job description into something else. Don't become a Sheriff deputy and then complain that you can't do surgery, and don't become a Sheriff deputy and complain that you don't have police powers. You knew what you can/can't do when you took the job, so deal with it or change jobs.

leadinspector
05-06-2009, 02:25 PM
Alot of sheriffs in PA have ZERO full service law enforcement experience. How are they qualified to conduct full service operations? Alot, not all, alot of deputies I have come in contact with were unable to get hired by full service police departments and it shows. Others I have met are just using it as a stepping stone, retired police officers or joes that retired from any and all work related backgrounds! I feel the ones pushing so hard and continuing this go no where thread are the wannebes who can't get hired by real police departments. After all $18,000 a year is going to attract qualified candidates. But hey, some sheriff offices are proactive:eek:

Good point and it would be a stepping stone but so would a city or township police job i want to go to state or federal level not a beat cop or deputy all my life(retirement);)

leadinspector
05-06-2009, 02:30 PM
The feds doesn't need any act 120 or act 2 they are like judge dredd "they are the law" no disrespect to ANY deputy sheriffs or police officer i think anyone in law enforcement is helping in there way yes even correctional officers and they all should be respected

Tripwire11
05-06-2009, 08:38 PM
Here is my .02 again. I agree with you 100% about excepting your job duties, however look at the firearm codes in title 18 or the PFA laws it spells out that sheriff has the right to investigate and arrest in these titles. Then you as a deputy keep on hearing that sheriffs have no investigating powers. Then you take a cop that is working part time put him or her in a sheriff uniform in the position of a deputy. Now what the he!! is their powers. Then read the wire tap act, you got 66 counties reading it 66 different ways. Thats 66 sheriffs, 66 DAs and 66 president judges trying to tell some poor deputy that is on the road what he or she can do. As far as title 75, there are no issues, there is case law on sheriffs and traffic/DUI arrests. Again my.02.

PDBagpiper
05-10-2009, 11:49 AM
Hi ,,I'm retired so I work part time..we work in the courts,as court officers,do transports,and work in all county buildings,we have a central booking system,we also do civil work...we have many part timers..for a retired guy with a law enforcement back ground,wanting to work a few days and be " still in the game" it's a great job..meet good people too..for a young person wanting all the action in the world( right now) Be a big city cop,or Trooper..

fedguy889
05-10-2009, 01:30 PM
Hi ,,I'm retired so I work part time..we work in the courts,as court officers,do transports,and work in all county buildings,we have a central booking system,we also do civil work...we have many part timers..for a retired guy with a law enforcement back ground,wanting to work a few days and be " still in the game" it's a great job..meet good people too..for a young person wanting all the action in the world( right now) Be a big city cop,or Trooper..


Thats probably the best response to this whole thread right there

DEcop989
05-10-2009, 04:15 PM
e d i t e d . . . .

timtim
05-10-2009, 06:25 PM
So here's an interesting qyuestion - back in the day when I worked at delaware county prison intake, we had two groups come in for morning court transports - Delaware County sheriffs and Delaware County Constables. Here's the clincher - I thought constables were state certified and CONTRACTORS sans emergency lights??? I ask because the delco constables drove vehicles marked Delaware County constables with old red and blue bars on top. Hence my quandry?


Is it true that state constables have more authority than the deputy sheriffs????

There is no simple awnser to this!

1) Some Counties allow Constables to charge people and respond to asisst Police. Hense some of them have emergency equipment.

2) Some Counties do not allow anything other then act 44, those Constables w/said equipment not authorized.

3) Constables have Statutory Arrest Authority, however, the true Chief LEO is the DA/State Attorney if they say no to their charges then oh-well.

4) Sheriffs can enforce traffic Consatbles can't.

5) Sheriffs have County Jurisdiction Constables State for making Arrest w or w/o warrant but refer to DA Office if they can file for a warrentless arrest.

6) Sheriffs (alot of 'em) forbid Deputies to do anything other then Court related work. For many reasons, mainly Political.

So in short some areas Constables rule over Sheriffs and others absolutly not. It simply depends on where you are. Sorry for the confusion but thats just the way it is.

Joe159
05-11-2009, 01:26 PM
Interesting article out of Berks County, PA.


Berks County deputy sheriffs making more use of limited arrest powers
By Steven Henshaw
Reading Eagle


Sheriff's deputies in Pennsylvania traditionally have been limited to apprehending wanted people and assisting other law enforcement agencies.

But Berks County Sheriff Eric J. Weaknecht said his deputies can and do arrest people who are not wanted by authorities if the deputies see something unlawful while they are searching for wanted people.

Weaknecht said that in the past, deputies who saw something illegal while serving a civil or felony warrant had to call the police department that has jurisdiction. He said it was a long-standing policy of former District Attorney Mark C. Baldwin to not have sheriff's deputies serve as prosecutors.

A state Supreme Court ruling bars sheriffs and their deputies from making investigatory arrests - those based on evidence gathered beforehand.

But the ruling doesn't prevent deputies from making arrests when unlawful activity occurs in their presence, Weaknecht said.

"Anything ... we come upon in view we can make an arrest and that's what we have been doing," Weaknecht said.

An example occurred in February, when deputies armed with a fugitive warrant went into a house in south Reading to arrest a man wanted for failure to appear in court and discovered a 6-year-old boy in soiled clothes living in the filthy, unheated home.

Deputies filed charges against the boy's mother and her boyfriend, who was the man they were seeking. He was found hiding in a closet.

The man and woman were both charged with endangering the welfare of children.

Weaknecht, who was elected sheriff in 2007, said that Baldwin's replacement, John T. Adams, who was elected the same year, supports allowing deputies to use their full powers, as does Reading police Chief William M. Heim.

The sheriff said police officers need not worry about their jobs because of the more active deputies. He said his 81 deputies are so busy, between serving felony warrants and civil orders such as mortgage foreclosures and protection-from-abuse orders, that it would be impossible for them to play the role of full-time police officers.

Adams, who last year authorized the sheriff's office to enforce traffic law when they see violations, said he has no problem with deputies using the powers, even though they are quite limited under state law.

He said deputies are more likely to encounter illegal activity in the city because that is where most of the targets of their warrants live.

The DA said he applauds the sheriff's department for filing charges, such as those involving the child in the filthy house, because it's a more efficient use of manpower.

"The city police are busy enough," Adams said. "For them (deputies) to bring in the city police into that situation would have been a waste of manpower."

MikeF2009
05-22-2013, 07:37 PM
Thoughts on the new Phila Sheriff and the direction he seems to be bringing the Office? I am currently in the process of being hired by them...I've been a police officer for a few years in the suburbs previously.

orlandofed5-0
05-23-2013, 10:47 AM
Thoughts on the new Phila Sheriff and the direction he seems to be bringing the Office? I am currently in the process of being hired by them...I've been a police officer for a few years in the suburbs previously.

What new direction? Its the same from what Ive seen. Just looking to increase the ranks.

philaleo
05-23-2013, 11:06 AM
nbc 10 has an article online they posted yesterday about the philly sheriffs office. apparently they still don't know how to count money but love asking the city for more funding

MikeF2009
05-23-2013, 12:17 PM
Alright well...nevermind ...

ERMedic
05-23-2013, 03:16 PM
You should've stayed in the suburbs bro...

MikeF2009
05-23-2013, 04:34 PM
I haven't left yet

orlandofed5-0
05-24-2013, 11:28 AM
Have they given you a time frame to move into the city? I think deputies are required to live in the city..

MikeF2009
05-24-2013, 12:09 PM
I've lived in South Philly my whole life

MikeF2009
05-24-2013, 12:11 PM
I would take it until I got a better police job....since I am part-time in 2 depts now, anything is better.

blamblam
05-27-2013, 01:46 AM
The age old Deputy Sheriff of PA and what can they do.

Well first and foremost exclude Alleghany County. They are the Police, its just up to the Office itself on what they let them do. So the question is what about the rest of'em. Lets take a look....

Pa Sheriffs are scattered and mentioned as LEO. This is very true but it isn't anything about authority its about specifics.

They are defined as LEO while in performance of their duties for protection. An individual(s) who assaults or worse a Sheriff while in performance could be charged then for assaulting an Leo. It doesn't expand or define authority.

Lets look at the carry of a Firearm. They are exempt from needing a LTC on or off duty. No question there but then you have to look at the in-house issue and policy. Are they authorized by the agency to carry their duty issue or have to carry private firearm on their credentials. If its duty issue that is a big plus because they (the agency) can take on liability issues that may arise. If it is private you will be 100% on your own and don't get confused if you mess up with your duty issue they can and will cut you off. H.R. 218, that's a no brainer in my opinion they don't have statutory arrest authority and that's a primary definition needed. Funny because neither doesn't a retired LEO but they get it.

Authority, Sheriffs have been given most of their authority by the Courts not Legislators. That's fine except in regard to H.R.218. The Courts recognize that the Offices can make an arrest, charge and prosecute criminal acts. This is in regards to what they see not by probable cause, investigation or
or informants.

Traffic enforcement is good to go with the exception of DUI. Now, They can arrest for DUI and enforce the motor code but the PASSC ruled that Sheriffs may not conduct their own DUI checkpoints with out Local/PSP that's the only exception on that in DUI aspect.

Authority/Motor Code enforcement falls now on Agency Policy and what the DA will except from a Deputy Sheriff. If they say go ahead by all means if they say no then you would be acting outside the scope of employment but not braking a law.

That's all opinion on what I have studied on the position over the years.

MikeF2009
05-27-2013, 04:43 AM
Speaking for Philly: Deputies are sworn law enforcement officers covered under the same FOP as philly PD. They have full arrest powers and carry off-duty as a police officer would. The uniform division of the Sheriff's Office is currently changing.

TemplarKnight
05-29-2013, 11:27 AM
Here is a story in which the Sheriff of Bucks County explains the powers of the sheriff's office:

County sheriff battles two candidates to keep his badge

By James McGinnis Staff writer | Posted: Friday, May 17, 2013 5:30 am

If Bucks County’s sheriff wishes to remain in office next year, he’ll have to duke it out against two opponents with high hopes of expanding that department’s role in law enforcement and improving its reputation with the public.

Former Lower Southampton Police Chief Edward “Duke” Donnelly faces challenges from one longtime political activist who walks around Doylestown passing out copies of the U.S. Constitution, as well as a veteran police officer with 31 years experience in public safety.

Republican challenger Tom Lingenfelter said he’s running for sheriff because Donnelly has lost sight of his role as “chief law enforcement officer in this county.”

A historical documents dealer from Doylestown, Lingenfelter cites military experience in a former and now defunct counterintelligence unit of the U.S. Army. If elected, he said he would use that training to help prevent crime while doing more to assist those who face foreclosure.

“A lot of the heartbreak of sheriff sales is because people don’t understand the process,” he argues. “People get caught up and lost in the bureaucracy.”

Sheriff Donnelly said his department provides as much guidance as possible to those facing foreclosure. However, he also stressed that his department can’t do much.

“We do try to explain the process to people,” said Donnelly. “We do it three months out in advance. More and more people are taking our advice and going to the banks right away, but we can’t stop a sheriff’s sale because that’s a court order.”

The trouble is: Lingenfelter and others just don’t understand the proper role of a county sheriff, Donnelly argues. “I think sometimes they see and compare us to the sheriffs out west. But we have no law enforcement powers. We must follow court orders.”

For example, if a sheriff’s deputy were to witness a crime while out serving a warrant, then that deputy would need to hold the suspect and phone local police to make the official arrest, Donnelly said.

But should that stop members of the department from playing a larger role in preventative crime measures? Democrat Dennis McCauley says no.

Whoever wins next week’s contest for the Republican nomination will face off against McCauley, a veteran officer for the Abington Police Department and current director of security and public safety at Bucks County Community College.

If elected, McCauley said one of his first acts would be to remove Donnely’s name from all sheriff’s department vehicles, calling that a “rolling political advertisement at taxpayers’ expense.”

McCauley also said he would leave his position with the community college and focus full time on restoring integrity to a sheriff’s department desperately in need of better leadership.

As evidence, McCauley cites the recent conviction of a Bucks County sergeant accused of assaulting a suspect in handcuffs, as well as three recently filed federal lawsuits tied to that case.

Plaintiffs Samantha Doneker and Philip Romanek of Bristol Township filed suit in March over the incident that led to the conviction of Sgt. Gary Browndorf. A jury found Browndorf guilty of simple assault and perjury after striking Romanek while in handcuffs and then lying about that incident on the stand in district court. In the suit, Doneker also alleges she was pushed by Browndorf, causing her to suffer a miscarriage.

Two former deputies have also filed suit. James McAndrew of Penndel and William Klein of Bristol Township were dismissed. County officials said they were terminated after failing to come forward and report Browndorf’s assault on Romanek.

However, McAndrew and Klein allege in court documents that the county had other motives for dismissing them. Klein and McAndrew said they were targeted for retaliation after complaints to superiors about “numerous corrupt acts.”

“I think we have a lot of good men and women in the Sheriff’s Department but the department has been troubled in recent years,” McCauley said. “In a public safety agency, integrity has to be a number one issue.”

Donnelly said he will not discuss ongoing lawsuits against the county “but we try to be open about what we do,” he said. “Anyone who wants to come over to this office and learn more about the work we do is welcome to stop by and ask questions,” he said. “We have an open-door policy.”

orlandofed5-0
05-30-2013, 11:29 AM
From what Ive heard, Donnelly is not liked by most Bucks LEO's.

PPDSWD
05-31-2013, 06:18 PM
The Sheriff of Philadelphia and his deputies are law enforcement officers; however, they do not have statutory arrest authority like the police do. FOP 5 does represent members of the sheriff's office as well as detectives of the DA's office.

Send ur message
03-22-2014, 11:28 PM
It's a shame that you have so much negative energy against the phila sheriff office , you should put that energy towards fighting crime and help solve some homicides ....no one is looking to take your work away , but the more law enforcement we have on the street the better....Philly police are so backed up with calls at times people complain that they had to wait a whole hour before police shows up, sometimes longer....deputies are a part of the F O P.. They pay union dues just like the police and are required more hours of training to be a certified deputy

philaleo
03-23-2014, 12:39 PM
i laugh at the fact deputy sheriff training is the same as act 120 + an additional 2 weeks and i agree they should have full leo powers and back up police depts. that said it comes down to your state reps and the state police to change things. unfortunately, state police don't want sheriffs to do police work as one trooper explained to me because it would cut their numbers. at the end of the day it's all politics.

orlandofed5-0
03-23-2014, 02:41 PM
It's a shame that you have so much negative energy against the phila sheriff office , you should put that energy towards fighting crime and help solve some homicides ....no one is looking to take your work away , but the more law enforcement we have on the street the better....Philly police are so backed up with calls at times people complain that they had to wait a whole hour before police shows up, sometimes longer....deputies are a part of the F O P.. They pay union dues just like the police and are required more hours of training to be a certified deputy

Can someone put this into proper English this for me....

Whitty
03-23-2014, 03:43 PM
Can someone put this into proper English this for me....

We are talking about people who in all honesty probably went to Philly's fine pubic schools...just saying. I make this assumption only after visiting two weeks ago and realizing that unless anyone was born and raised there (family), I have no idea why you would want to live there...

orlandofed5-0
03-26-2014, 02:31 PM
We are talking about people who in all honesty probably went to Philly's fine pubic schools...just saying. I make this assumption only after visiting two weeks ago and realizing that unless anyone was born and raised there (family), I have no idea why you would want to live there...Well I grew up here and Iam a proud public school graduate. Honestly, the city is not the bad.Just run by incompetent fools.

Whitty
03-26-2014, 03:01 PM
Well I grew up here and Iam a proud public school graduate. Honestly, the city is not the bad.Just run by incompetent fools.

Its all good Orlando. Im a public school kid too (not philly). Was just trying to get someone to bite. No such luck I guess. Stay safe.

OfficerBarbrady
03-26-2014, 04:50 PM
Well I grew up here and Iam a proud public school graduate. Honestly, the city is not the bad.Just run by incompetent fools.

Lincoln High ain't what it once was :D

orlandofed5-0
03-27-2014, 10:37 AM
Lincoln High ain't what it once was :D

It hasnt been that way since the 80's.. Or are you talking about the new building the incompetent fools of 440 N. Broad want to sell...