Affirmative Action

[ZmanCarlvr]

Well seeing as this is a Civil Rights forum...


The Civil Rights Act of 1964, was founded in 1964, and today is February 21, 2005.


Obviously it still exists, but does everybody think to the same extent??

And, what else can be done to possibly have an alternative?

And this question is not only for the employment factor, but for universities and everything else that it effects.

Since we have some new folks on these forums, it will be nice to see how all the new people feel as well.


-Z

[Dave2886]

Even more than 40 years later, it's still a pretty hot topic--I'm probably going to see my rep go way down after this, but here's my take on affirmative action.

In a word, AA is crap. To give someone a job, or admission to college, based solely on their race is racist. All that does is put people in positions that they haven't earned. I'm not denying that in the past minorities have been at a disadvantage, and I'm not saying that they aren't still at a disadvantage, but to solve that problem you need to look at the source of the problem, not simply hand out special treatment for an arbitrary reason.

A great example of how AA is a horrible idea is what the NY State Police did back in the 70s. My father-in-law was a trooper then, so this is where my information is coming from. Anyone who is from NY knows how extremely competitive the hiring process is for the NYSP. What they did, was to actively recruit minorities, predominantly blacks. A lot of them did not even pass the entrance exam, let alone score high enough to be called in for the next phase if they weren't a minority. But, after they saw the results of the exam, the powers that be decided to waive the results of the exam and hire a bunch of them anyway, because someone decided that they had to hire X amount of blacks in the next recruit class. Some of these people were actually illiterate. They had to give English classes to them in the academy, to teach them to read and write. Can anyone actually argue that this is a good idea? I was told that a majority of the recruits from this class washed out within a few years.

I don't have a problem with recruiting minorities, but everyone should be on the same playing field, playing by the same rules. Period.

[ZmanCarlvr]

Even more than 40 years later, it's still a pretty hot topic--I'm probably going to see my rep go way down after this, but here's my take on affirmative action.

In a word, AA is crap. To give someone a job, or admission to college, based solely on their race is racist. All that does is put people in positions that they haven't earned. I'm not denying that in the past minorities have been at a disadvantage, and I'm not saying that they aren't still at a disadvantage, but to solve that problem you need to look at the source of the problem, not simply hand out special treatment for an arbitrary reason.

A great example of how AA is a horrible idea is what the NY State Police did back in the 70s. My father-in-law was a trooper then, so this is where my information is coming from. Anyone who is from NY knows how extremely competitive the hiring process is for the NYSP. What they did, was to actively recruit minorities, predominantly blacks. A lot of them did not even pass the entrance exam, let alone score high enough to be called in for the next phase if they weren't a minority. But, after they saw the results of the exam, the powers that be decided to waive the results of the exam and hire a bunch of them anyway, because someone decided that they had to hire X amount of blacks in the next recruit class. Some of these people were actually illiterate. They had to give English classes to them in the academy, to teach them to read and write. Can anyone actually argue that this is a good idea? I was told that a majority of the recruits from this class washed out within a few years.

I don't have a problem with recruiting minorities, but everyone should be on the same playing field, playing by the same rules. Period.

AMEN to that! you basically summed it all up on that.

[kestrel]

There was a time and place for Civil Rights legislation. It has long passed. The moment a minority could get a lawyer and actually fight their case in court and win was that moment. Before, they had no redress, now they do. Especially now that we have the EEOC.

[Titan67]

I think there was a need for it at one point in time but that time is long gone. Without abbandoning AA we will never have an opportunity to get past the race issue as a society.

Speaking as someone who is in charge of admitting students to a college I think there are pros and cons to looking at race in college admissions. As a college you do want people from different states, economic backgrounds, religions, races, and so on. It aids to the learning environment. However I feel that it is completely wrong for a student or a job recruit to get in over a more qualified applicant because of their race. If you have one spot open and you have two students with 1300 SATs and 4.0 GPAs and the exact same extra curricular activities then you look at things like race and religion and what you need to shape your class. The place where I am at has made a huge push over the past five years to increase minorities on campus and have done a great job of doing so, but average test scores have dropped, we have more crime on campus ect ect.... I have nothing wrong with having an entire minority student body if they are all qualified, but that's not always the case.

Some of these questionable kids got in not solely because of race but other factors such as playing football and whatnot. But when something happens bad on campus you can usually bet it's one of the illiterate kids that got in when they shouldn't have.

p.s. Some of our best and brightest are minorities, my gripe is not that they are minorities it's that some kids get in places that they don't belong just because of the color of their skin. (i.e. University of Michigan case)

[Bklngirl]

hello all,
Not only am I new here,but,I have never been in a chat room before.I am not an officer,Bit I am a great admirer.I also teach in a University.I have been reading for a few weeks now,and have been very impressed by the smart and funny participants.I teach in a very libral school,the underdog is always right(They are wrong sometimes)I also served as a grad advisor for 10 years,and accepted(and rejected )students.I don't hold much by scores on standarded tests.I myslf always scored low on them and had very good grades.I have had students who had horrible grades in college,and wanted to get into grad school.They gave as explaination for these grades,a list of horrific events that made my hair stand on end;They were brutally raped in college,they had lost a parent ,on and on.Then they swore they would do well if accepted.So I accepted them ,9 times out of 10 they did horribly in grad school.Which means;they come late to class,hand in their assignments late,do the assignments wrong,miss exams (which means you have to shcedule a make-up.to sum it up in 3 words,the are a pain in the ***!(forgive me I'm from Brooklyn)Plus ,they annoy my friends.As A teacher for 20 years I've learned to try and judge each student by my experience with them.Anyway,the population in my school is so diverse you can't look at someone and know exactly anything.But, I wouldn't want a sugeon standing over me who got intl Med school on AA

[Mraughh]

I have to agree with the above posters in regards to AA. The time for it is past, and we have such a culturally diverse society now that standards should no longer be lowered for anyone to be admitted in any type of job. If you can't pass a reading test, blame yourself, not society, you are the one afterall who was given the materials to learn and chose not too. It saddened me to find out that the verbal test given for our PD was at a 7th grade reading level, when a significant portion of a LEOs job is reading/writing reports, taking notes etc.

[NCHawk56]

I see a logical reason to have AA at the present time. Currently minorities are underrepresented in the middle class, and upper class. This is not because they are lazy or because they are new to the society. The truth is that previous institutional discrimination has resulted in the current inequality. The Housing act of 1944 after WWII is a perfect example of the is past discrimination. Why does this matter? The median "black" household has a networth 1/8 that of the median "white" household. Minorities are more likely to live in urban areas and to attend public school with poor funding. All this results in a cycle of "non-deliberate" discrimination. What AA is is an attempt to remove discrimination, the injustices of the past have lasting consequences. You don't discriminate persay, but the playing field isn't level.

If you are a true capitalist, then it's ok to take every advantage you can to pull yourself up the economic ladder, this includes knocking the footing our from under your compitition, black, white, or latino. We're not true capitalist though.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Batman21]

My question regarding AA is this,

Why do you want diversity over quality? This is America and the best person for the best job, school, etc right? :rolleyes:

Ohh wait this is America that

[Templar]

Funny, an employee of mine who is a 22 year old black male (6'3'' and 240 lbs.) and I were talking about this very subject tonight, and he made a very simple yet, wise observation.

He posed this scenario. If you were in the emergency room in need of serious attention and a doctor was about to work on you would you:

A. Want a doctor who scored 99% on his exams and knew what he was doing?

B. Want a doctor who scored 65% failing the portion of the exam that dealt with what you are in need of?

The same is true for our profession. Would you want someone who knew what he was doing or someone who failed and is not qualified? This scenario goes for all races and sexes. I wouldn't want a white male coming to my rescue if there is a black male more qualified and with better chances of helping me successfully.

Whom is more qualified? Regardless of race, sex, religion, etc, I want the more qualified person.

[BrickCop]

"Affirmative" Action = Reverse Discrimination

[Welpe]

As a person with a Spanish surname, I would hate to have anything "handed" to me because of my name. That tells me I didn't earn it. I would rather know that whatever I've attained (a college degree, a job in LE etc) is because I've earned it.

I personally find the idea that things should be made easier for me because of who I am insulting. And I am definitely not the only "minority" (I hate that term) who feels the same way.

[BrickCop]

Temp,

Your scenario reminds me of the old complaints about the physical ability requirements for a Firefighter. Some people say that as long as a firefighter can pull you out of a burning building that's all that should matter.

Those people are then asked if they'd rather be carried down the ladder or be dragged by the ankles as they hit their head on every wrung. :D

[Templar]

Temp,

Your scenario reminds me of the old complaints about the physical ability requirements for a Firefighter. Some people say that as long as a firefighter can pull you out of a burning building that's all that should matter.

Those people are then asked if they'd rather be carried down the ladder or be dragged by the ankles as they hit their head on every wrung. :D

Lol, that is funny. I think I will use that.

[1sgkelly]

Everybodys blue, or not.

That was easy.

:p

[kbclawdog]

Even more than 40 years later, it's still a pretty hot topic--I'm probably going to see my rep go way down after this, but here's my take on affirmative action.

In a word, AA is crap. To give someone a job, or admission to college, based solely on their race is racist. All that does is put people in positions that they haven't earned. I'm not denying that in the past minorities have been at a disadvantage, and I'm not saying that they aren't still at a disadvantage, but to solve that problem you need to look at the source of the problem, not simply hand out special treatment for an arbitrary reason.

A great example of how AA is a horrible idea is what the NY State Police did back in the 70s. My father-in-law was a trooper then, so this is where my information is coming from. Anyone who is from NY knows how extremely competitive the hiring process is for the NYSP. What they did, was to actively recruit minorities, predominantly blacks. A lot of them did not even pass the entrance exam, let alone score high enough to be called in for the next phase if they weren't a minority. But, after they saw the results of the exam, the powers that be decided to waive the results of the exam and hire a bunch of them anyway, because someone decided that they had to hire X amount of blacks in the next recruit class. Some of these people were actually illiterate. They had to give English classes to them in the academy, to teach them to read and write. Can anyone actually argue that this is a good idea? I was told that a majority of the recruits from this class washed out within a few years.

I don't have a problem with recruiting minorities, but everyone should be on the same playing field, playing by the same rules. Period.


To the contrary Sir, I am sure your rep will go way up after your statements in here on this subject.

[BrickCop]

kbclawdog,

Respectfully,

I wholeheartedly share your point of view if Dave's story about the NYSP is false or grossly exagerrated.

However if Dave's story is accurate I believe he has made a valid point, rep points be damned in that case.

[Quopper]

Never was a big one to "jump on the bandwagon", might as well start the process of burning in hell now....

MY OPINION:

There is racism in today's society because the so-called "minorities" have created it.

Points to my belief system:

1) Minorities are NOT minorities anymore - unless of course it is the 40-year-old white males calling themselves that.
2) At what point do white people stop "owing" everybody else something, I DID NOT use anybody as a slave, or a hitching post to get where I am today, and I was not handed a free ride because of the color of MY skin, so don't try to tell me that I was.
3) If a child is raised in a family that believes that everyone does owe them something, then that child will grow up having a racist attitude towards everyone else! Regardless of color, however if it is a black child, then the chances are good that they will dislike the white people.

I call the current racism in our society, "Self Suppression". Get off of your butt, regardless of race, color, or religion and fight for what you want. If it is the same thing that I want, then I will stand toe to toe with you to get it, and let the best PERSON Win!


Sorry - the hole AA thing sorta ****es me off...... :mad:

[NCHawk56]

Mr. or Ms. Quopper I must disagree with you on all points.

1. Minorities are still minorities, both by dictionary definition and by sociological definition. The larges single "race" of people in the United States are "whites" In terms of power, which is how sociologiest evalutate minorites, 99% of political power is held by "whites."

2. You are essentially stating that you shouldn't have to pay for the mitakes of your father. In that case should "blacks" have to pay for the inslavement of their fathers? Should a heir benefit from the acheivements of his/her father? "Blacks" on average have less family wealth then whites, 1/8 as much. So they are paying for the problems of the past in lost opportunities.

3. This is without question stupid. Whatever background you come from, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. People with black skin don't hate "whites". Some might, but then again some white skinned people hate black skinned people.

Oh and for your own education. There is no biological differences between humans along race lines. Any two humans are more siminlar genetically then any two fruit flies. Race is a social construct.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[ZmanCarlvr]

Mr. or Ms. Quopper I must disagree with you on all points.

1. Minorities are still minorities, both by dictionary definition and by sociological definition. The larges single "race" of people in the United States are "whites" In terms of power, which is how sociologiest evalutate minorites, 99% of political power is held by "whites."

2. You are essentially stating that you shouldn't have to pay for the mitakes of your father. In that case should "blacks" have to pay for the inslavement of their fathers? Should a heir benefit from the acheivements of his/her father? "Blacks" on average have less family wealth then whites, 1/8 as much. So they are paying for the problems of the past in lost opportunities.

3. This is without question stupid. Whatever background you come from, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. People with black skin don't hate "whites". Some might, but then again some white skinned people hate black skinned people.

Oh and for your own education. There is no biological differences between humans along race lines. Any two humans are more siminlar genetically then any two fruit flies. Race is a social construct.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56


Yes a minority is still a minority by definition and census data...

But does that mean that such minorities are still being acted against, and are suffering from previous events??

Are today's minorities still suffering from Jim Crow Laws and the civil rights problems that existed in 1964?

[That Guy]

Are today's minorities still suffering from Jim Crow Laws and the civil rights problems that existed in 1964?

I think what he meant is that blacks never had a "foot hold" in this country except as slaves. Yeah laws changed in what the last 100-150 years, whereas whites always had the power and money since they fisrt stepped foot on this continent. Blacks are in an identity crisis. It may seem so much time has passed for themt o gain that foot hold but when you look how long US has been around it's nothing..

TGY

[ZmanCarlvr]

I think what he meant is that blacks never had a "foot hold" in this country except as slaves. Yeah laws changed in what the last 100-150 years, whereas whites always had the power and money since they fisrt stepped foot on this continent. Blacks are in an identity crisis. It may seem so much time has passed for themt o gain that foot hold but when you look how long US has been around it's nothing..

TGY


I will agree that the time that has passed since 1964 is quite minimal as compared to the entire time the US has been in existence, But I think it is safe to say that in the last 41 yrs or so, there has been a HUGE change in how this country views african americans, and women and all other minorities.

I know I share the same bathroom and water fountain with my African American RA on my floor, and with the kid from India next door... I don't believe that would have happened back then like it does today.

[Mraughh]

I will agree that the time that has passed since 1964 is quite minimal as compared to the entire time the US has been in existence, But I think it is safe to say that in the last 41 yrs or so, there has been a HUGE change in how this country views african americans, and women and all other minorities.

I know I share the same bathroom and water fountain with my African American RA on my floor, and with the kid from India next door... I don't believe that would have happened back then like it does today.

Just in your wording of this quote shows how the country has altered its views alone. In addition, there was certainly no black history month, hardly any black actors, politicians, civic leaders, etc. The country has changed, theres no doubt about it.

[NCHawk56]

Amercia, and it's people, have adapted what sociologist have termed "have a nice day racism." What has happened is that in the face of laws that forbid discrimination those in power have taken to simply denying minorities equal access to resources in a way that appears to comply with law. An example that I am aware of is the owner of apartment complexes stating to minorities, I'm sorry the apartment has been rented, then within a short time show that "rented" apartment to a non-minority. In a department store a minority is followed by the staff around the store, while non-minorities are not. These activities are racism. These activities are not issolated incidents, they occur everyday. Some will argue that minorities commit more crime. In a study of Chicago's transient areas researchers monitored the level of crime over more than 50 years. In that time crime increased at a constant rate, while the race of the people in the area changed. From Irish, to black, and most recently latino. It's not the race of the people that made the difference, it was their economic status, they lived in this area because that is all they could afford.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Quopper]

Mr. or Ms. Quopper I must disagree with you on all points.

It is Mrs. Quopper, white female, not only college educated and beyond, but also VERY opinionated! FYI: Worked at the largest international graduate school in the US for 12 years, dealt with 85% international races everyday...learned more from them about how racism and cultures work than any book could ever teach me.

1. Minorities are still minorities, both by dictionary definition and by sociological definition. The larges single "race" of people in the United States are "whites" In terms of power, which is how sociologiest evalutate minorites, 99% of political power is held by "whites."

I guess I will grant you the dictionary definition, however if I lived my life by dictionary definitions it would be very boring indeed.

2. You are essentially stating that you shouldn't have to pay for the mitakes of your father. In that case should "blacks" have to pay for the inslavement of their fathers? Should a heir benefit from the acheivements of his/her father? "Blacks" on average have less family wealth then whites, 1/8 as much. So they are paying for the problems of the past in lost opportunities.

Mistakes of my father - I did not realize you knew him, if you did you would know that there is no slavery in my family tree, I have actually done the research, Thank You. As far as paying for the past generations mistakes, let me ask you a question, should you be allowed to be a police officer if you father was a rapist, or mass murderer? Or should you also have to live a restricted life because of the actions and decisions of anothers?

I agree that terrible things have happened to SOME "blacks", however, for as many white people that do not have ties to slavery there are black people that do not either. If you want to dispute this point - you better do your research before you come back at me...

3. This is without question stupid. Whatever background you come from, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. People with black skin don't hate "whites". Some might, but then again some white skinned people hate black skinned people.

Did you even read what I wrote? "If a child is raised in a family that believes that everyone does owe them something, then that child will grow up having a racist attitude towards everyone else!" How can you dispute this, I didn't mention "color" until I was giving ONE example of how this can AND HAS happened. Ignorance in my opinion - is ignoring the realities that are right in front of your face!

Oh and for your own education. There is no biological differences between humans along race lines. Any two humans are more siminlar genetically then any two fruit flies. Race is a social construct.

I don't recall mentioning anything about biological difference, but please feel free to make it look like I did.

I understand that race is a social construct - one that is now being used against the white people. How is it right to have all "black" colleges, how is it right to have every crime committed by a white person against a black person a crime of race vs. a crime of opportunity like every other crime, how is it right to say that a black person committed a crime becasue they didn't know any better, but a white person committed it becasue they are bad.

ALL of the **** needs to end, if not then the racism that has been seen in the past will be nothing like what we see in the future...

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

SEE THE ABOVE BOLD FOR MY REPLIES!!

[kbclawdog]

Mr. or Ms. Quopper I must disagree with you on all points.

1. Minorities are still minorities, both by dictionary definition and by sociological definition. The larges single "race" of people in the United States are "whites" In terms of power, which is how sociologiest evalutate minorites, 99% of political power is held by "whites."

2. You are essentially stating that you shouldn't have to pay for the mitakes of your father. In that case should "blacks" have to pay for the inslavement of their fathers? Should a heir benefit from the acheivements of his/her father? "Blacks" on average have less family wealth then whites, 1/8 as much. So they are paying for the problems of the past in lost opportunities.

3. This is without question stupid. Whatever background you come from, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. People with black skin don't hate "whites". Some might, but then again some white skinned people hate black skinned people.

Oh and for your own education. There is no biological differences between humans along race lines. Any two humans are more siminlar genetically then any two fruit flies. Race is a social construct.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

I agree 100%



Dave2886: A lot of them did not even pass the entrance exam, let alone score high enough to be called in for the next phase if they weren't a minority.

How did your father-in-law know this?

Dave2886: But, after they saw the results of the exam, the powers that be decided to waive the results of the exam and hire a bunch of them anyway, because someone decided that they had to hire X amount of blacks in the next recruit class.

Again, how did your father-in-law know this? Where I am from they don

[Quopper]

[QUOTE=kbclawdog]Someone in here suggested that black people are lazy and don

[Dave2886]

[QUOTE=kbclawdog]I agree 100%



Dave2886: A lot of them did not even pass the entrance exam, let alone score high enough to be called in for the next phase if they weren't a minority.

How did your father-in-law know this?

Dave2886: But, after they saw the results of the exam, the powers that be decided to waive the results of the exam and hire a bunch of them anyway, because someone decided that they had to hire X amount of blacks in the next recruit class.

Again, how did your father-in-law know this? Where I am from they don

[retired]

I agree 100%
Did you know that black people built this country for free?

I enjoy a good history lesson, so can you elaborate how the blacks "built" this country for free? :confused:

[BrickCop]

[QUOTE=kbclawdog]Let me tell you a true story that I have witnessed first hand. Where I work there is a ratio of about 60 to 40 Whites to Blacks, respectively. When I tried out for the SWAT team and passed, there were four blacks and four whites. From appearances, everyone seemed squared-away except this one white guy who was a little chubby. Needless to say he didn

[kbclawdog]

MY OPINION:

There is racism in today's society because the so-called "minorities" have created it.

Points to my belief system:

1) Minorities are NOT minorities anymore - unless of course it is the 40-year-old white males calling themselves that.
2) At what point do white people stop "owing" everybody else something, I DID NOT use anybody as a slave, or a hitching post to get where I am today, and I was not handed a free ride because of the color of MY skin, so don't try to tell me that I was.
3) If a child is raised in a family that believes that everyone does owe them something, then that child will grow up having a racist attitude towards everyone else! Regardless of color, however if it is a black child, then the chances are good that they will dislike the white people.

I call the current racism in our society, "Self Suppression". Get off of your butt, regardless of race, color, or religion and fight for what you want.


Relax Cowboy, I never said they stated or I was quoting them, I said it was suggested by someone. Maybe you took the statements in red to mean something else, but I took it how I took it. By you and I having different backgrounds, I am sure we are going to see things a little differently.

Also, you are absolutely right about the rumor mil at agencies. Nevertheless, it's still a rumor, granted in most rumors there is a element of truth, but it is still a rumor. If your father-in-law did get his info from one of the people in question then it is still a rumor because that individual was talking about other individuals. I am not saying its not true, but it is a rumor.

I am sure it is very competitive to get in the NYSP, like it is to get in most State Troops or State Police jobs but when I think about it, it's competitive in most LE jobs.

Dave: First of all, it's a documented fact that in the 70s a judge mandated that the NYSP had to hire "X" amount of minorities in a certain time period.

I am sure the judge meant they had to hire an X amount of qualified minorities. That doesn't mean that they went about it the way that you or your father-in-law stated. If they did hire a bunch of unqualified illiterate people over a bunch of qualified people then that was wrong and they should have gotten washed out.

Quopper: They might have built your neck of the woods for free, but the Native Americans built mine - want to talk about a culture and race that got screwed?

Yea, my fault, black people didn't build the Indian reservations. I agreed with you there, they did get screwed the worst, they were slaughtered.

retired: I enjoy a good history lesson, so can you elaborate how the blacks "built" this country for free?

In a word "Slavery"

Even after slavery blacks continued to work the low paying back braking jobs of that day which was farming and construction type jobs during and after they migrated to the big cities. Of course I am not going to forget about the Chinese who were important to the railroad. It is amazing that some of the complaints back then were about the Negro taking the jobs away from the working class white men of that day. That was another issue that fueled the hate of that day. Sounds familiar huh!

[Quopper]

Relax Cowboy, I never said they stated or I was quoting them, I said it was suggested by someone. Maybe you took the statements in red to mean something else, but I took it how I took it.

Clawdog - you took the statement that you put in red and twisted it around to something that I did not say - Where does it say that blacks are lazy and do not want jobs??? Damn it to hell and back it IS people like you that throw fuel on the fire! I don't give a crap if you have freaking blue skin, if you want something get off your butt and work for it - don't expect it to be handed to you because someone else said it should be. Take pride in your wants and desires and use your own ambition to get it. And then have enough pride in yourself that if you are not good enough, you can admit it and strive for personal improvement.

Do you see something wrong with that statement???? :confused: :confused:

[Welpe]

lawdog, don't forget about the Irish immigrants that had a hard time finding work as well. They were indeed discriminated against by other "white" people due to their heritage. "Irish need not apply" was a common sight in places such as New York.

[Batman21]

Has anyone else noticed that talking about AA is like talking about religion, something that we are not supposed to talk about and when we do a whole $h!t storm comes from it?

This will end all the AA talk:

Pick the Right/Most qualified person for the job. That is it; a 5 year old understands that. When a 5 year old says something to the extent of,

[Delta784]

lawdog, don't forget about the Irish immigrants that had a hard time finding work as well. They were indeed discriminated against by other "white" people due to their heritage. "Irish need not apply" was a common sight in places such as New York.

My grandparents were victims of NINA (No Irish Need Apply), and they were Scottish! :eek: Who knew or cared about the difference between a Scottish brogue and an Irish brogue back then?

The worst thing I see about AA is that it has created a stigma that minorities need an unfair advantage in order to compete for jobs. There is a black cop that I work with, and he got the job 100% above-board. He scored a 99%, city resident, and Veteran to boot.

However, he has to listen to the "You stole my job" mantra from people that have been passed-over in order to satisfy some quota set by a rich, liberal, Federal judge that doesn't have to live or work in the places where his decisions affect people the most.

[MP Teamleader]

I have a great Idea!!

Let do a reality show where a black guy and a white guy compete for jobs. First go to a predominatly white area of a major metro city and both apply for the same job. Have the white guy look less qualified and the blak guy look perfect for the job. Even go as far as have the white guy drees not quite approiatly (sp?) for the interview. See who gets the job. Then go to a predominatly black area of a major metro city and reverse the roles.

Who thinks the jobs would go to the white guy?
Who thinks they will go to the black guy?
Who thinks the job will go to the most qualified?

My kingdom for the expertise to pull this off on live T.V.!!

[SWATcop]

I think it's all a bunch of crap. Everyone is supposed to be treated equally, right? Then DO IT. Equal test scores (no handicaps because of your skin color or place of birth), equal physical requirements, no differentiating for male/female - make it truly EQUAL and may the best qualified win.

[Quopper]

I think it's all a bunch of crap. Everyone is supposed to be treated equally, right? Then DO IT. Equal test scores (no handicaps because of your skin color or place of birth), equal physical requirements, no differentiating for male/female - make it truly EQUAL and may the best qualified win.

SWAT - I agree with you, I suppose I should feel left behind or offended, as a female entering the male world of LE, BUT I DON'T! Give me any test you want, if I pass, yeah for me, if I fail, I guess I better try harder. Don't make exceptions for my boobs, that's BS, they will hinder me enough when I am on the street. Then when I get on the street, I can honestly look at everyone out there with me and say - "At least I'm equal in skill!"

[SWATcop]

SWAT - I agree with you, I suppose I should feel left behind or offended, as a female entering the male world of LE, BUT I DON'T! Give me any test you want, if I pass, yeah for me, if I fail, I guess I better try harder. Don't make exceptions for my boobs, that's BS, they will hinder me enough when I am on the street. Then when I get on the street, I can honestly look at everyone out there with me and say - "At least I'm equal in skill!"
Now, if everyone would take that attitude and quit whining and complaining because they don't meet the basic requirements, maybe there really would be some degree of "equality."

[retired]

[QUOTE=Quopper]SWAT - Don't make exceptions for my boobs, QUOTE]


Could you elaborate more on your boobs? :D ;)

[Quopper]

[QUOTE=Quopper]SWAT - Don't make exceptions for my boobs, QUOTE]


Could you elaborate more on your boobs? :D ;)

I thought the theory was if you had see one pair you had seen them all - or was it if you had seen one pair - you wanted to see them all....

LOL - Retired check out the V-day thread - we've got it going on over there!!

[Josey Wales]

retired asked:
retired: I enjoy a good history lesson, so can you elaborate how the blacks "built" this country for free?

To which kbclawdog replied:
In a word "Slavery"

At best, this is classic revisionist history. Slaves were used in agriculture in the South. You have to remember that in the mid-nineteenth century, the USA was in the process of industrializing, which was where the true wealth was. In terms of Southern workforce, slaves amounted to no more than 5 percent. Further, in terms of wealth produced, it would be total speculation; but surely it would be in single digits of what we now refer to GDP. I would venture a guess that their total produced wealth was be less than 1 percent. To even remotely opine that slaves built this country is about as accurate as opining that any single ethnicity did; in reality, it is totally unsupported by facts!

I have scholary essays on slavery that indicate that no more than five percent of all southerners owned slaves.


JW

[Josey Wales]

Titan67,

Speaking as someone who is in charge of admitting students to a college I think there are pros and cons to looking at race in college admissions. As a college you do want people from different states, economic backgrounds, religions, races, and so on. It aids to the learning environment.

I have been exposed to this refrain too many times to count, nearly universally by liberals who desire to promote an agenda. Please tell me about the scientific research supporting the claim that diversity aids the learning environment? If you post is authentic, how can inferior quality students (low test scores) and a compromised learning environment (higher crime rates) improve any environment, let alone a school? Further, if you're able to produce research validating your claim, please post competing research.


Take care,

JW

[SWATcop]

how can inferior quality students (low test scores) and a compromised learning environment (higher crime rates) improve any environment, let alone a school?
IT CAN'T, that's just plain old common sense (for some of us)

[retired]

[QUOTE=retired]

I thought the theory was if you had see one pair you had seen them all - or was it if you had seen one pair - you wanted to see them all....

LOL - Retired check out the V-day thread - we've got it going on over there!!

Forget the first theory that if you've seen one pair you've seen them all. The second theory is the correct one. :) ;)

What is the V-day thread?

[Quopper]

Damn here I was thinking that this thread would get good when NCHawk and Clawdog showed back up - I guess they got scared and ran off with their tails between their legs??

What's the matter boys - don't have any fight left in ya?? :D :D

[kbclawdog]

Quopper,
Clawdog, I kinda like and I might even change my name to Clawdog. :D

Josey, I see you are up to your old tricks. I did respond with the word "Slavery" but of course you left out the rest.

Welpe: don't forget about the Irish immigrants that had a hard time finding work as well. They were indeed discriminated against by other "white" people due to their heritage. "Irish need not apply" was a common sight in places such as New York.

Absolutely and also the Irish worked jobs where they were consider indentured servants, which they basically worked for nothing.

[USAcop]

Would you really feel comfortable getting a job because of affirmative action?

[SWATcop]

SWAT - Don't make exceptions for my boobs


Could you elaborate more on your boobs? :D ;)
Well Quopper, answer the man - I'm waiting now, too!! (.)(.)

[Quopper]

Well Quopper, answer the man - I'm waiting now, too!! (.)(.)

SWAT - you've already seen them, oh yeah sorry that was in your dreams!! :D

[Quopper]

[QUOTE=kbclawdog]Quopper,
Clawdog, I kinda like and I might even change my name to Clawdog. :D QUOTE]

The BEST comeback you have for me is about your name?? So sorry, I try to pay attention to the bigger issues, rahter than the smaller ones! :D

[SWATcop]

SWAT - you've already seen them, oh yeah sorry that was in your dreams!! :D
So THAT'S why he was up before I was...

[NCHawk56]

Damn here I was thinking that this thread would get good when NCHawk and Clawdog showed back up - I guess they got scared and ran off with their tails between their legs??

What's the matter boys - don't have any fight left in ya?? :D :D


Had to get some real work done for a while sorry.

This notion that our own hardwork results in our own successes and failures, is too simple and doesn't take into account enough factors. We are not born blank slates, equal to our peers. We are born into a family, with unique genetic code, in a certain country, etc. All these factors result in who we are. Ok so I'm hoping that noone is going to dispute this. Now what is happening is that people with black skin are all collected at the bottem of the economic scale, while whites are spread out, and make up 100% of the top 1%, the ruling class. Why is it like this. One explanation is that they are new to this country, like the Irish were. The truth is they aren't new, so that argument doesn't work.

The most practical argument is that there have been barriers to success for these people. What AA was attempting to do is "make up" for the previous injustices. This isn't reperations and it's not lowering standards.

With capitalism there are only so many jobs at any one level. We are all competing for them. I'd venture to argue that by saying AA, or training for prison inmates is wrong, which noone say (not putting words in your mouth, but this rehabilitation is often attacked on the ground that those in prison should be punished not rewarded) is an attempt to ward off competition. And not in a racist way, more in a classist manner.

There is also this "white" idea that whites in power, connect with the working class whites. Like they have any idea what a working class job is like, or what it's like to not be able to pay the bills. Class structure connects us more than the color of our skin. Keeping other working class people for success, or from competing for our jobs won't help anyone. It's be demanding that our government help us all, no one is an island, noone can do all this on their own. We all can use a hand at times.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Quopper]

Ok - I give - you were either a little confusing in your writing, or I am way too damn tired to fight this fight tonight! :D

But what the heck, I have looked like an ***** before, so here goes:

[Quote]Now what is happening is that people with black skin are all collected at the bottem of the economic scale, while whites are spread out, and make up 100% of the top 1%, the ruling class.[Quote]

I have an other idea of why the black are collected at the bottom of the scale - AA taught their parents and grandparents that is was okay to accept something for nothing, and that you should expect that as you grow-up. I was taught to fight tooth and nail to get what I wanted, not to rely upon the color of my skin to "help" me out along the way.

[Quote] (not putting words in your mouth, but this rehabilitation is often attacked on the ground that those in prison should be punished not rewarded) [Quote]

Depending on the crime - I AGREE!!!! What makes it right to commit a crime and then while serving your sentence you are educated better than the guy that has committed no crime, and now you get his job??? Doesn't that mean that committing a crime will lead you to good things??? Is that really what we want to teach people??

[Quote]There is also this "white" idea that whites in power, connect with the working class whites. Like they have any idea what a working class job is like, or what it's like to not be able to pay the bills. [Quote]

WTF?? Do you really think that just because a white person has a good paying job, that they never suffered through a lower level of economic standards?? That they were never unable to pay the bills?? Do you forget that we have people like CondaLizza Rice, (SP?) Colin Powell, Bill Cosby, and the other thousands of great black people that are in positions of power as well? What's their excuse, oh I'm sorry they have none - because they busted their *** to be someone important!

[Quote]Class structure connects us more than the color of our skin. Keeping other working class people for success, or from competing for our jobs won't help anyone. It's be demanding that our government help us all, no one is an island, noone can do all this on their own. We all can use a hand at times.[Quote]

Class structure?? NC - I must ask where the hell you live, here in the good 'ol USofA, their is no class structure. The definition of class structure means that when you are born and your father is a boot maker then you in turn will be a boot maker and nothing else. Hence the relationship between the economic standard of living and where you are in your class.

Now you say that the government should help everyone out evenly, right? Wouldn't that mean that if it is illegal to have an all white college, then it should be illegal to have an all black college?? Wouldn't that mean that the NAACP should be banned, since the white folks can't have one too? Or how about, NOT giving point preference to other races, OR genders for physical or educational type jobs??

I agree that we can all use a hand some time - if that in fact is your opinion then you would be FOR not AGAINST abolishing the AA of the past.

[1sgkelly]

Affirmative action, isn

[NCHawk56]

Let me get right to the point. You seem to be coming from a "conservative working class perspective." You know what liberals and conservatives have in common. They both try to apply their ideology to the world instead of letting the facts stand alone.

For instance, class is not caste. We in the Good all of 229 y.o. country have classes. A class is a broad collection of people with similar access to resourses. We the "middle class" think that all Americas are middle class. First, police officers are not middle class, by sociological definition. They are working class, as most people in this country are. Upper class, not caste don't want to confuse anyone here, don't really give a damn about the working class, that group of people who make enough to get by, work paycheck to paycheck, and will never be a Mason. In a class system mobility is possible, but it is infrequent, in a caste system mobility (increasing or decreasing ones position) is almost impossible. There are some methods involving marriage, but it's very rare.

Good Job? How bout no job? Upper class people didn't earn their money, they didn't pull themselves up by their boot straps. They inherited it. They were born with more money, more connections, more resources. They are the B students who get into Yale. You buy them a library and suprise suprise your less then genious kids get into Duke. And just for your information I live in North Carolina. Hence the NC...

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Quopper]

Okay - NC - did you read the first part of my reply - I was really confused and tired! I am sorry (see I know how to apologize) that I misunderstood what you meant by class system - yes I was thinking caste system. Well now that I have admitted to one mistake - I will be perfect for the rest of the year! You know I only get one unperfect a year! I'm feeling lucky I made it to March! :D

With that said, that was the one thing that you could find to pick on me about :confused: . Does this mean that I win?? :D

PS - not conservative - not liberal - just plain old b!t%hy me! :D

[Mraughh]

Good Job? How bout no job? Upper class people didn't earn their money, they didn't pull themselves up by their boot straps. They inherited it. They were born with more money, more connections, more resources. They are the B students who get into Yale. You buy them a library and suprise suprise your less then genious kids get into Duke. And just for your information I live in North Carolina. Hence the NC...

mm, so you are saying that Bill Gates, JFKs dad, all those folks who worked tooth and nail to make their money didnt earn it? To reach the upper class, someone in their family had to crawl their way up there from the beginning. Thats capitalism at work. At some point in history everyone started at the bottom of the pile. Point in fact, the private club that I work for, The original owners were farmers from Ireland who immigrated to the USA. they're entire family are multi-millionaires now all stemming from the sweat and blood of their ancestors.

[KBeecher]

I am afraid I have to disagree with NCHAWK.

The background I came from put me in the poverty class, govt cheese you know.

I feel that I have made the step up, the bank and I own a home, I have a pension and a full time job, I get to pay taxes and I own my own Harley and truck.

Your background can be poor if you want to leave it that way. Otherwise get off your @$$ and go to work.

And even the Kennedys, Onassis, and Bush's were poor at one time or another. They worked for and got lucky. They then passed on that work ethic money to their descendants. Who knows if they will remain rich or not? Could have a depression just like the late 30's.

[Dave2886]

Let me get right to the point.....I must have missed the part where you made a point... :confused: The only reason why people born into poverty stay poor is a refusal to work hard and/or failing to make good choices to better themselves. The last time I checked, the US military does not have a minimum income requirement prior to enlistment. Once you're in, do your job, get a degree--paid for by Uncle Sam--and from there, you are set. You can try for OCS, make a career out of the military, which is pretty good money if you're an officer; or you can get out and use your military experience/training and your new degree to get a good job. The point is, in this country, you can't say that everyone doesn't have a chance to move up. You show me ANYone who is not living the kind of lifestyle they feel "entitled" to, and I'll show you how they did not work hard enough and/or made some really poor choices in life. It's NOT about skin color, it's about individual, and yes, cultural, values and ideals.

I'd like to point out that there are plenty of non-minorities living in the same economic levels as minorities, and they are no better than anyone else. Everything I said above goes for them too.

If you really want to dig deep, why not address the role pop-culture plays in this? In a culture where some of the music and other "black" media glorify gang violence, drug use/sales, alcohol abuse, lack of respect for women, authority, the government, etc. is it any suprise when the youth who grow up with this media influence behave in accordance with these values, or lack-thereof? Should we be suprised when kids take the "easy" road of gang membership, lots of cash from drug sales, not having to have a job or go to school? I'm not saying that Tupac and Ludacris are solely responsible for this--I think a large chunk of the responsibility falls on the parents of these kids, especially where the father is nowhere to be found--but it's a fact that all kids and teens are heavily influenced by popular music and other forms of pop-culture. So when you've got a very large segment of society listening and emulating a "lifestyle" of "thug life" or whatever, it shouldn't suprise anyone when a lot of these kids start to behave that way, especially when they see their friends and other people in their neighborhood living that way. And please don't tell me that the "old folks" said the same thing about Elvis and the Beatles...it's not even the same thing!

But, to get back to my original point, anyone in this country, regardless of their race, economic status, religion, whatever, anyone can better themselves if they are committed to the steps they need to take, and avoid making choices that they KNOW are going to seriously hinder any aspirations of a better life. That is the way of this country. Hard work and dedication should be rewarded, not brown skin and an outstretched hand demanding something for nothing.

[Quopper]

But, to get back to my original point, anyone in this country, regardless of their race, economic status, religion, whatever, anyone can better themselves if they are committed to the steps they need to take, and avoid making choices that they KNOW are going to seriously hinder any aspirations of a better life. That is the way of this country. Hard work and dedication should be rewarded, not brown skin and an outstretched hand demanding something for nothing.

AMEN to that!

[tk0727]

AMEN to that!

Wow, today was the first time I've read any of these posts.
And I'd have to say that DAVE's last post pretty much sums it up!

[NCHawk56]

Hard work. Bill Gates stole from Apple the framework for this operating system, and JFK's father ran alcohol during prohibition. Hard work? Get some better example then that. Their law breaking asside, these are two people out of billions, that's not a trend.

Why are so many people poor, is it because they sit on their ***? How can a country have the largest more powerful economy in the world, many times more than most other nations, and you claim the people who make that economy run are lazy. Are you lazy, or do you work hard and find that you aren't really getting rich? We can't all be rich in a stratified society, no matter how hard we work.

This hardwork B.S. you are feeding me is nonsense. You can improve your situation, but to transend your class in our system is rare.

Black universities, first of all aren't restricted to only minorities. A "white" individual who applies there can get a full ride because of their race. Why are their black universities, because black students 100 years ago were not allowed to go to state and most private universities owned and operated by whites.

Dave your rap arguement is too narrow. What about punk, rock, heavy metal, Grung, some country. All this music at times talks about ant-government, violence, ant-women, stuff.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Quopper]

Why are so many people poor, is it because they sit on their ***? How can a country have the largest more powerful economy in the world, many times more than most other nations, and you claim the people who make that economy run are lazy. Are you lazy, or do you work hard and find that you aren't really getting rich? We can't all be rich in a stratified society, no matter how hard we work.

I guess it depends on your perception of rich. Yes I am working my tail off to get somewhere, and I live in the "lower - mid middle class". But I AM rich, I have a loving husband, a beautiful daughter, a roof over my head, and the ability to do anything I want because of the freedom of the country I live in!

[KBeecher]

Bill Gates stole from Apple the framework for this operating system, and JFK's father ran alcohol during prohibition. :confused:

Gates stole something and it was never taken to court by Apple to get money for it? Doesn't sound right to me. And by the way this OS is nothing like what Apple has or had, the two aren't even compatible enough to talk with each other or work together to my knowledge. And even if he had stolen the frame, the rest was hard work for someone, who more than likely got richer than most people do.

Kennedy's running alcohol during prohibition? :eek: Now that really comes as a shock, especially since they were not only running alcohol, but cigarettes and anything else they could bring in on a boat that brought money. Sorry, but most big businesses were founded by someone who usually did something illegal or shady.

That sounds to me as if they were working just as much as everyone else during those days. Prohibition was a waste of money and officers, because it was never shown to be a popular law. It still is prohibited, you just have to get a tax stamp for it to make it.

I consider myself rich, especially since my mother never owned a home of her own until I was 15 years old and three of us kids provided her with the downpayment. Funny thing is house was sold after she died and money went to under age sister and to pay bills left from the funeral of our dad.

I still consider myself rich, got roof, got wheels, got food and job. What else can you ask for. Can only drive so many vehicles and can only sleep in one house at a time.

You have to work hard for your kids, and hope they work hard to better themselves. Doen't always work, but if you don't try your just wasting space and breathing air could be used by someone else.

[NCHawk56]

:rolleyes:

When I said rich I meant MONEY!!!

The Kennedys were criminals, but JFK was a good president, and shouldn't be judged by the sins of his father. But he inheritated an a lot of money.

You aren't rich, neither am I. Your middle class pride is wonderful. But never having to work, say like Lawrence Joseph Ellison, Paul Gardner Allen, Warren Edward Buffett, and of course Gates. All are billionaires. How can someone work that hard to "earn" billions of dollars. You can't, you get lucky.

African Americans have been kept from being lucky, first systematically, then socially. AA, was an attempt to restructure society, to allow some african americans to access a higher class. I guess you don't want anyone to be given an unfair advantage. But that's what Kennedy did, he took an unfair advantage by breaking the law.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Dave2886]

:rolleyes:

When I said rich I meant MONEY!!!

The Kennedys were criminals, but JFK was a good president, and shouldn't be judged by the sins of his father. But he inheritated an a lot of money.

You aren't rich, neither am I. Your middle class pride is wonderful. But never having to work, say like Lawrence Joseph Ellison, Paul Gardner Allen, Warren Edward Buffett, and of course Gates. All are billionaires. How can someone work that hard to "earn" billions of dollars. You can't, you get lucky.

African Americans have been kept from being lucky, first systematically, then socially. AA, was an attempt to restructure society, to allow some african americans to access a higher class. I guess you don't want anyone to be given an unfair advantage. But that's what Kennedy did, he took an unfair advantage by breaking the law.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56
Hey pal, NOBODY is "entitled" to be a billionaire. When I talk about moving up, or being "successful" I'm referring to being middle or upper-middle class. In what society can everyone be at the top? It doesn't exist. You can't use people like Gates or the Kennedys for an example, because it's not realistic to think that all you need to do is work hard and you'll magically become a billionaire. What I'm saying is, if you work hard and make good choices in your life, you can have a good, comfortable life, where you can own a house, a nice car or two, take vacations, have nice possessions, go to the movies, etc. without having to worry about how you're going to pay for it. I'm NOT saying that you'll always be able to buy whatever you want, because that's what billionaires do, but you can have a good life. Anyone can. And yes, I realize there are other types of music that are not healthy influences, but the reason I singled out hip-hop/rap music is because it relates directly to the topic this thread was about. Anyway, I've got plenty more to say, but I've got to get ready for work now....to be continued!

[Mraughh]

Hard work. Bill Gates stole from Apple the framework for this operating system, and JFK's father ran alcohol during prohibition. Hard work? Get some better example then that. Their law breaking asside, these are two people out of billions, that's not a trend.

Why are so many people poor, is it because they sit on their ***? How can a country have the largest more powerful economy in the world, many times more than most other nations, and you claim the people who make that economy run are lazy. Are you lazy, or do you work hard and find that you aren't really getting rich? We can't all be rich in a stratified society, no matter how hard we work.

This hardwork B.S. you are feeding me is nonsense. You can improve your situation, but to transend your class in our system is rare.

Black universities, first of all aren't restricted to only minorities. A "white" individual who applies there can get a full ride because of their race. Why are their black universities, because black students 100 years ago were not allowed to go to state and most private universities owned and operated by whites.

Dave your rap arguement is too narrow. What about punk, rock, heavy metal, Grung, some country. All this music at times talks about ant-government, violence, ant-women, stuff.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

So i guess this lady didnt work hard for her money either huh?

[B]Born Sarah Breedlove in 1867 in Delta, Louisiana, the legendary Madame C.J. Walker was the daughter of former slaves. From her beginnings as an uneducated farm laborer and laundress, she transformed her life to become one of the most successful businesswomen of the 20th century. Walker, who made her fortune through a haircare products company targeted to the African American community, is widely reported to be the first self-made African American millionaire. When asked the secret of her success, Walker responded: "[U]There is no royal flower-strewn path to success.

[kbclawdog]

....I must have missed the part where you made a point... :confused: The only reason why people born into poverty stay poor is a refusal to work hard and/or failing to make good choices to better themselves. The last time I checked, the US military does not have a minimum income requirement prior to enlistment. Once you're in, do your job, get a degree--paid for by Uncle Sam--and from there, you are set. You can try for OCS, make a career out of the military, which is pretty good money if you're an officer; or you can get out and use your military experience/training and your new degree to get a good job. The point is, in this country, you can't say that everyone doesn't have a chance to move up. You show me ANYone who is not living the kind of lifestyle they feel "entitled" to, and I'll show you how they did not work hard enough and/or made some really poor choices in life. It's NOT about skin color, it's about individual, and yes, cultural, values and ideals.



Dave, what you have said here for the most part is true; however, did you factor in the up bring of ghetto kids in a rat-infested neighborhood where both parents are on crack or some other type destructive drug or maybe the parents were in jail. YOU cannot possibly understand the mindset they are in or the way they see the world. If you are LE and worked in some of these hoods then you might have a glimpse into their lives because you will see the day-to-day **** they as kids must deal with. I can remember a house we went into on a warrant looking for this guy. The guy had two sons, one nine and the other ten and they were hiding in the house. The suspect wasn

[kbclawdog]

[QUOTE=Mraughh]So i guess this lady didnt work hard for her money either huh?

[B]Born Sarah Breedlove in 1867 in Delta, Louisiana, the legendary Madame C.J. Walker was the daughter of former slaves. From her beginnings as an uneducated farm laborer and laundress, she transformed her life to become one of the most successful businesswomen of the 20th century. Walker, who made her fortune through a haircare products company targeted to the African American community, is widely reported to be the first self-made African American millionaire. When asked the secret of her success, Walker responded: "[U]There is no royal flower-strewn path to success.

[Delta784]

[QUOTE=kbclawdog]Dave, what you have said here for the most part is true; however, did you factor in the up bring of ghetto kids in a rat-infested neighborhood where both parents are on crack or some other type destructive drug or maybe the parents were in jail. YOU cannot possibly understand the mindset they are in or the way they see the world. If you are LE and worked in some of these hoods then you might have a glimpse into their lives because you will see the day-to-day **** they as kids must deal with. I can remember a house we went into on a warrant looking for this guy. The guy had two sons, one nine and the other ten and they were hiding in the house. The suspect wasn

[Delta784]

Example of why the current system isn't working;

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/4260340/detail.html

[Dave2886]

kbclawdog,
Thanks for the description of "The Hood", I've never seen one myself....
:rolleyes: I'm only stuck in the middle of one for 8 hours a night...

Anyway, you might be right about SOME of the kids who grow up in that kind of environment not wanting to join the military, or do anything productive with their lives...but who's fault is that? Not mine, and not anyone else's but their parents (or lack thereof). If you read my post carefully, you'd see that I specificly stated that MOST of the blame lies with the parents. But does any of that mean that we should give every single person with brown skin a better chance at getting into college or getting a good job than a person with white skin? Or should we only give AA to people with brown skin who can prove that they grew up in "The Hood"? What about the whites who grew up in "The Hood"? Do they not also deserve a "helping hand"? Why does one group deserve something for nothing, when another does not, if they are both "disadvantaged"? Where do you draw the line?

Not everyone is destined for success. If you are too lazy and/or stupid to work hard and make good choices, maybe you don't NEED to get into that college you're applying to. Maybe you don't DESERVE that job you're applying for. I don't know about you, but I don't want to see one of these hood rats I deal with every night standing over me 10 years from now with a scalpel in his hand one day...or coming to work wearing the same uniform I do. And that goes for every color rat you can think of, cause they don't just come in one flavor. I'm not saying that everyone who grows up in "The Hood" is worthless, I'm just saying that the people who ARE worth something don't stay in "The Hood" their whole lives. They work hard, make good choices and make something of their lives. And if they meet the minimum requirements for a college or a job, they shouldn't need or want any unearned preferential treatment. If they don't meet the requirements, they should continue to work hard and make good choices until they DO meet the requirements--Just like every other hard-working person has to do. But even if you refuse to admit it, you know as well as I do that SOME people are destined to be dirtbags. If you truly work in a bad area, you see them every night. Regardless of WHY they turned out the way they did, the fact remains that they ARE absolutely worthless to society, and always will be.

When you point to people who have gone on to do great things after "benefiting from AA", I say, if they were good enough to accomplish those great things, they probably would have made it without AA anyway.

Bottom line, if you're qualified, you're qualified. If you're not, you're not, and just having brown skin shouldn't change that. THAT is a "level playing field".

[Mraughh]

That is great; however, Madame C.J. Walker was the exception and not the rule. A million other blacks were poor as hell and another million were getting whipped, intimidated, killed and running for their lives during that time. So lets stay focus.

claw, I see your point, especially about growing up and living in the projects. My beat had 2 housing projects in it. HOWEVER, that is not an excuse. Three officers who I worked with are housing authority cops that grew up in the projects they lived in as children. All of them are stellar police officers and good men. I've known good men in the military who had troubled backgrounds also. Like Ms. Walker said, you have to work hard for what you want.

Ok, I can focus, my ancestors were whipped, crucifed, killed, raped, plundered and sold off as slaves in the Roman empire. I don't hold a grudge against Italians because they are the descendants of my ancestors oppressors. Every society across the globe has had some form of tyranny during history. The most important thing to remember is to focus on what you can change in the present and the future and remember the evils of the past.

I'll ask one more question of you also. Would you prefer to live in America with its past history of the treatment of blacks or would you prefer to live in Nigeria? Or Somalia? The Sudan? Rawanda? I count my lucky stars that my ancestors immigrated to America from Germany.

[FNA209]

I typically shy away from topics like this one. They are usually irresolvable, and everyone on each side is just too set in their views to budge. But, I read all of the posts and several of them made me remember a few of the real issues I have with the subject, so I

[KBeecher]

I give up, my opinion is that I am rich with what I have.

I have nothing against affirmative action as long as it works the same for everyone. If your going to help the Black kid, help the Latino and Asians or whoever, then you better include the White kid in there too.

Otherwise its called discrimination.

If you want to call it by some other name, go ahead, It not being equal is not anything I can do about it.

[NCHawk56]

[QUOTE=FNA209]
My Dad served in WWII. When he got out of the Navy in 1946, he went to school.
QUOTE]

Possible thank the Servicemen's Act of 1944. Why is that related to race. Black servicemen were kept out of suburban towns, Levittown for example because of racial practices by lenders and realtors. While those white servicemen bought property in suburbian, black servicemen bought property in urban areas. What happened, well not suprisingly suburban property values skyrocketed, while the value of urban homes did not. Why does this matter? Well that lead to disproportional wealth. Racism lead to whites being better off then black, men who had faught and died doing the same job, no disparity in amount of "hard work."

Claiming that you should never pay of the sins of your father goes against some practices we currently have. For instance, debt is passed from the father to the children apon the death of the parents, an example of paying for your fathers mismanagements. Inheritance is a way we benefit from the success of our fathers (used figuratively, mother/father).

One day I too believe that we all should be equal. Best man for the job. I just don't believe we are too that point yet, we have to undo some of the messes that were made.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56

[Dave2886]

[QUOTE=FNA209]
My Dad served in WWII. When he got out of the Navy in 1946, he went to school.
QUOTE]

Possible thank the Servicemen's Act of 1944. Why is that related to race. Black servicemen were kept out of suburban towns, Levittown for example because of racial practices by lenders and realtors. While those white servicemen bought property in suburbian, black servicemen bought property in urban areas. What happened, well not suprisingly suburban property values skyrocketed, while the value of urban homes did not. Why does this matter? Well that lead to disproportional wealth. Racism lead to whites being better off then black, men who had faught and died doing the same job, no disparity in amount of "hard work."

Claiming that you should never pay of the sins of your father goes against some practices we currently have. For instance, debt is passed from the father to the children apon the death of the parents, an example of paying for your fathers mismanagements. Inheritance is a way we benefit from the success of our fathers (used figuratively, mother/father).

One day I too believe that we all should be equal. Best man for the job. I just don't believe we are too that point yet, we have to undo some of the messes that were made.

Stay Safe!!!

NCHawk56
I hate to use such an obvious cliche, but here goes: That was Then--This is Now. All of the injustices you're referring to are decades in the past. Is there still such a thing as racism? Sure there is, but I simply don't believe it is keeping anyone out of school or employment anymore. First of all, not everyone is racist. Quite the opposite, it is very un-PC to be racist these days, and nobody (even those few who are) wants to be labeled as such. Therefore, even in places where they don't have an AA policy, I have seen no evidence of any discriminatory hiring or admission practices. People are too afraid of being labeled a racist and being named in a lawsuit.

I believe someone else already brought this up, but I don't believe you ever responded to it, so I'll ask it again. You seem to be implying that you actually DO hold the son responsible for the sins of the father. Like someone else already asked, do you then believe that an otherwise perfectly qualified person should be denied a law enforcement position because their great-grandfather was a convicted murderer? Your example of having to pay your deceased parent's debt is ridiculous. Do you have any LOGICAL reasons why anyone living today owes ANYONE a THING for events that took place hundreds of years ago? There is not a soul alive in this country who was born a slave in this country. That would be like me going to Germany and demanding reparations because I'm half jewish. Nevermind the fact that the only time I've ever even been to Germany was when we stopped at Ramstein AB on the way to Kuwait. Nevermind the fact that neither my father, or his parents were in any way affected by Nazi Germany, other than my grandfather joining the service in WWII. My rather obvious point is that I do NOT deserve any kind of compensation from Germany, because I am not a victim of anything they did. And neither is any black person in this country a victim of slavery. Racism? Maybe, but I've been in that situation too. So have a lot of people who aren't black. But when someone does me wrong, I don't sit there and whine about how I don't deserve it, and the world owes me something now. I shrug it off, chalk it up to experience, and move on. Again, it all boils down to hard work and good choices. Nothing more. Everything else is just BS.

[Mraughh]

20-year-old 'Reallionaire' exhorts students to give their best effort in life

By LAURA LAYDEN, lllayden@naplesnews.com
March 9, 2005

He's as real as they come.

At 20, Farrah Gray has achieved more than most will in a lifetime.

He describes himself as America's Reallionaire and when he shared his rags-to-riches story with Golden Gate High School students Tuesday, he touched them in a way few speakers can.

The teenagers hooted, hollered, clapped, whistled and even stomped their way through his high-energy speech. Afterward they lined up to meet him one-on-one, feeling inspired and looking for help in pursuing their dreams.

Students jammed into the high school's auditorium by the hundreds for his three presentations. Some clamored for front-row seats, maybe in hopes that his success would rub off on them if they just got close enough.

A body guard stood closely behind Gray as he spoke.

Gray grew up in a broken-down apartment in the inner city of Chicago. His mother worked three jobs, but still his family needed public assistance to get by. There were days when there was barely any food in the fridge.

"We had no furniture," he said. "We had rats and roaches running around. We had to sleep on the floor with the rats and the roaches."

A young Farrah started asking himself why he had to live this way, and he became determined to get himself and his family to the "other side of the mountain."

At 6 years old, he sold body lotion for $1.50 door-to-door. He mixed together leftover lotion and baby powder that he found around the house to make "new" bottles. He earned $50. He treated his mother to a buffet dinner at a Chinese restaurant, and the feeling he got inspired him to keep going.

By 7, he carried a business card reading "21st Century CEO," though he didn't even know what CEO meant.

He'd heard someone introduced as a CEO on TV and it sounded important. He toted around a red lunch box as a briefcase, and handed his card out to anyone who would take it.

At 8, he organized a group of his friends to create UNEEC, the Urban Neighborhood Economic Enterprise Club. Ultimately, the club raised $1 million to develop the group's entrepreneurial ideas and start various businesses. The club's success landed him his own radio show called "Backstage Live" in Las Vegas.

"A lot of people did hang up on us," Gray said. "All I heard was dial tones."

By 12, Gray had established himself as a national speaker.

Today, he commands $10,000 per appearance.

At 13, he started his own company called Farr-Out Foods, headquartered in New York. The company sold pancakes based on his grandma's recipe for syrup. It did $1.5 million in sales, making him a millionaire at 14.

Gray later sold the company for $1 million.

After making his first million, his first goal was to retire his mother and grandmother, who worked so hard to make ends meet. He bought homes for them and hired housekeepers and chefs so they don't have to cook or clean.

During the past few years, Gray has racked up a long list of other achievements. He's acquired INNERCITY Magazine, he's financed a comedy show on the Las Vegas strip and last year he published his first book called "Reallionaire: Nine Steps to Becoming Rich from the Inside Out." His book is endorsed by former President Bill Clinton.

Gray defines a Reallionaire as "someone who has discovered that there is more to money than having money. A person who understands that success is not just about being rich in your pocket; you have to be rich on the inside, too."

Gray believes everyone is directly responsible for whom they become, no matter their circumstances. He said three questions should be asked when determining what to do with your life: What comes easy to you, what would you do and not get paid for, and how can you be of service?

"So many people don't use their gifts," he said. "I think the richest place is the cemetery. A lot of people die without using their gifts."

He told students they have to work on themselves from the inside out. It worked for him. He pursued his dreams, though he heard many times that he would fail.

As an African-American, he said, the statistics say he should either be dead or in jail. But, he said, through "hard work, a prayer, a goal and a vision" he beat the odds. He said he owes a lot of his success to his mother, who taught him that he could do anything he put his mind to.

He said it's important to have a sense or urgency and to hustle.

"Comfort is the enemy of achievement," he said. "So many people get comfortable with their money, their credit cards and what they have today."

He challenges himself to do better every day. And he encouraged students to do the same.

"I believe that average is really the bottom of the top and the top of the bottom," he said.

To that, he heard cheers from the students.

He encouraged students not to give in to peer pressure and not to do drugs. And he had a special message for women in the crowd.

Respect yourself, he said.

"Show us your mind and stop showing us your behind," he said to rousing applause.

After the first session, one student came out chanting "Respect your moms," while others lined up to get his autograph and personal advice.

Alexis Urquizo, a junior, asked him how to pursue creating a new video game technology that she's dreamed up. She jotted down his phone number and e-mail address so she could talk to him some more.

"I thought he was awesome," she said. "It inspired me. I have an idea and I think I can do something with it."

Kyle Sprague, a fellow classmate, also left inspired.

He dreams of becoming an Air Force fighter pilot or going into the U.S. Special Forces, though his friends have told him he can't do it.

"I want to see combat either way," he told Gray. "Then I want to go into marine biology."

He's been studying Gray's book in his English class, and he said he likes it because it's so straightforward.

Jeremy Kelly, also a junior, said he was surprised that Gray was so down-to-earth and that the millionaire agreed to come to the school. Gray didn't charge the school for his speech.

"It's the new school and it has the reputation of being in the bad part of town, which really isn't true," Kelly said. "I never thought he would have come here."

[Quopper]

Mraughh - Thank you for posting this article!! Well worth the time it takes to read - it is proof that it does not matter where you come from, or what color your skin is, if you have the will and the drive to succeed - YOU WILL!!

Dave - the post above was also very well said! Thank you!! I was surprised that I never got an answer on paying for your father's sins!