Todays world...

[Deniz]

I went to a Christening yesterday. The Pastor was saying some nice stuff but when I looked around, people weren't listening, so many faces tuned out, no one cares anymore.

I saw the movie "The Passion of the Christ" and here at work when I mentioned it, people said it was pretty gruesome. But I think the movie was a shock people need to see. People are already desensitised to violence, of course it had to be a bit more realistic to get attention.

I'm just confused how can we be so ignorant. Maybe that is just what "they" want.. So many forces so desperately trying to make us into ignorant unhappy depressed atheists. And the Churches, so many of them, all claiming they are the only way, who do you beleive?

How did the world come to this? How has being good become "dorky and stupid" and being bad become "cool and smart"...

Pardon the rant but I'm confused and want to hear other peoples opinions...

:confused:

[retired]

Originally posted by Deniz


I'm just confused how can we be so ignorant. Maybe that is just what "they" want.. So many forces so desperately trying to make us into ignorant unhappy depressed atheists. And the Churches, so many of them, all claiming they are the only way, who do you beleive?



:confused:

What makes you think that Atheists are ignorant and unhappy? Quite frankly I think that is an ignorant statement on your part.:rolleyes:

[Deniz]

Originally posted by retired
What makes you think that Atheists are ignorant and unhappy? Quite frankly I think that is an ignorant statement on your part.:rolleyes:

Everyone has a void they need to fill somehow in them. If you say your an atheist who has everything figured out, I'd like to know your secret. What filled that void for you? (ie alcohol?)

[SomeGuy]

How did the world come to this? How has being good become "dorky and stupid" and being bad become "cool and smart"...


What defines good and bad? So many of the rules in society are arbitrary, confusing, paternalistic and just flat out wrong. Now, I'm not advocating going out and robbing people or something, but so much of what is defined as "good" just seems illogical. If good involves swallowing lies with a big grin on your face, which it often does, I think alot of people would rather not.


And the Churches, so many of them, all claiming they are the only way, who do you beleive?


Whichever one you want. All of them. Or none of them. I don't think it really matters. No one has a monopoly on truth, and when you're standing at the pearly gates, I don't think St. Peter really cares what you called yourself, so long as you lead a good life.


Everyone has a void they need to fill somehow in them. If you say your an atheist who has everything figured out, I'd like to know your secret. What filled that void for you? (ie alcohol?)


Ever heard the saying, "There's more than one way to skin a cat"? We might all have a void in us, and have a need for some meaning in life, but religion is only one of many ways to fill it.

[Frank Booth]

But I think the movie was a shock people need to see. People are already desensitised to violence, of course it had to be a bit more realistic to get attention.

Why? Peoples' imaginations aren't good enough to reflect on what it means to have the crap beat out of you and then be nailed to a tree to die? You must not be a very good Christian if you have to see an actor acting like he's in pain to understand tha basis of your faith.

[nickg]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Why? Peoples' imaginations aren't good enough to reflect on what it means to have the crap beat out of you and then be nailed to a tree to die? You must not be a very good Christian if you have to see an actor acting like he's in pain to understand tha basis of your faith.

maybe the fact is some people don't really realize the sacrifice Christ made because it's been sanitized in many movies. apparently the message has gotten thru to a lot of people who HAVE seen "The Passion..".

my faith was strong BEFORE i saw it and and remains strong BECAUSE i saw it.

if anyone objects to what is shown in the movie then don't go see or don't squawk about it if you HAVEN'T seen it. by now most people know what this movie is about so they shouldn't come out shaking their heads in amazement of what was portrayed on the screen anymore than you should be surprised that the boat sank in "titanic".

[Frank Booth]

my faith was strong BEFORE i saw it and and remains strong BECAUSE i saw it.

Your faith wouldn't have been strong anymore had you not seen this piece of Hollywoodism? Like I said......

[Deniz]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Why? Peoples' imaginations aren't good enough to reflect on what it means to have the crap beat out of you and then be nailed to a tree to die? You must not be a very good Christian if you have to see an actor acting like he's in pain to understand tha basis of your faith.

I didnt mean that from my point of view, I'm talking about the general youth population here in Australia who seem to think it is more important to have a good looking body than to have a strong spiritual connection with God.

And for the record, I had faith before I saw the movie and I still have faith after I've seen the movie. But it is a little more 'in your face' to see an actor portray what it might have been like, rather than reading it from a book. But it is, as you'd agree, interpretation. You might be able to visualise it better than I may have but at least the movie gives us both something common to talk about.

[SomeGuy]

I didnt mean that from my point of view, I'm talking about the general youth population here in Australia who seem to think it is more important to have a good looking body than to have a strong spiritual connection with God.


So? Not everyone has the same priorities that you do, don't worry about it. There are plenty of people who don't care much about religion who are great people.

[Frank Booth]

I didnt mean that from my point of view, I'm talking about the general youth population here in Australia who seem to think it is more important to have a good looking body than to have a strong spiritual connection with God.

Who's a better Christian, the young person who takes good care of what God entrusted him or her with, or the fat slob with poor self-esteem who goes to church every day and treats his body like a garbage disposal? If I were God, I'd rather have my product in the gym than in church eating Twinkies....(What do they call Twinkies down under?)

[Deniz]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Who's a better Christian, the young person who takes good care of what God entrusted him or her with, or the fat slob with poor self-esteem who goes to church every day and treats his body like a garbage disposal? If I were God, I'd rather have my product in the gym than in church eating Twinkies....(What do they call Twinkies down under?)

What I meant was the ones who choose to go to parties drinking and taking designer drugs who want to go to the gym just to look sexy so they can go to more parties etc etc you know the type. The ones who end up flipping burgers for a living at the age of 30.

[SomeGuy]

Originally posted by Deniz
What I meant was the ones who choose to go to parties drinking and taking designer drugs who want to go to the gym just to look sexy so they can go to more parties etc etc you know the type. The ones who end up flipping burgers for a living at the age of 30.

I did alot of drinking and drugs in high school, and I'm currently in college. Don't worry man, the kids who do that sort of thing will eventually mature and gain perspective on life. They may not become the exact sort of people you want them to, but only a small minority of them will end up flipping burgers at 30.

PS: Designer drugs aren't even popular. The only popular one is E, and very, very few people do that ****-again, don't worry.

[britishcopper69]

Dear Deniz

Take your head out of the clouds for a second and check out the statistics for the last two thousand years. More human beings have been murdered in the name of Christ during that time than any other single religion. Christians have forgotten more about mass murder than the nazis and communists could ever hope to learn, if you look at the stats.

Murder, larceny on an epic scale, the cleptomanic impulses of the Catholic Church over the last fifteen hundred years. The enslavement of millions of human beings by no doubt devout christians.

Which part of this catalogue would you like me to examine to find christian goodness?

This is the reality of religious interpretation. God will, indeed, find the good man out. The good man, Deniz. Goodness and piety, which is what you're talking about, are two different breeds which are often confused as being the same thing.

[britishcopper69]

...and another thing. Just to respond directly to the topic of this thread, I happen to think that we've never had it so damned good! There is more freedom of thought than there has ever been, more people have the vote than ever, more people are earning a decent wage without having to contract some industrial illness as a trade off, there is more closure on child abuse and rape cases - don't tell me you're one of the idiots that buys that **** about the Good Ol' Days, when people could leave their back door open without fear of intrusion, and everyone was nice to everyone else.

Ever heard of Vietnam, or Korea? World War One and Two? The Boer War? The various British adventures around the world? American depridations in the Philippines at the beginning of the twentieth century...the list is endless.

As one British veteran burglar, a relic from the 1940s, put it," You could leave your door open in them days cos most people had nothing worth stealing, anyway." Our time might not be perfect, but for the average joe, it's the best yet.

[Deniz]

Dear Brittish Copper

Again, I failed to get my message through clearly, I apologise. In relation to your statement that in the old days you could leave your door open etc etc and that it may have been better is not what I meant. What I meant is nothing has changed in 2000 years. People dont seem to learn from their ancestors mistakes. Thats my worry.

And as for your comments about the church, I somewhat agree with you but all religions are guilty of such crimes of massive proportions. When I was watching the movie "The Passion" what was going through my head was:

It all started with one guy, ONE man. How did it come to this? So many denominations, so many 'versions' of the good book, so many fanatics blinded by their hatred for the non-beleiver so much pain and suffering caused by all this. I'm not surprised people who had to go to the Christening that day (ref my first post above) tuned out, they have probably learnt and been conditioned from childhood to do that. This is, in my opinion, wrong. Like I said, if the churches fight one another, where did the primary purpose of spreading the good news go?

But you are right, at the end of the day I can only endevour to be a good man which is what I do anyway. I just dont want to be ignorant as well.

[nickg]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Your faith wouldn't have been strong anymore had you not seen this piece of Hollywoodism? Like I said......

my faith would still be strong even if this movie was never made or i never saw it. a movie shouldn't make or break your faith. to me it just serves to reinforce HOW Christ died for us. simple as that. if you don't get it fine with me.

[Frank Booth]

if you don't get it fine with me.

I get it just fine. You said that your faith remains strong you saw a Hollywood movie. Here it is, right here your own words:

my faith was strong BEFORE i saw it and and remains strong BECAUSE i saw it.

Incidentally...name one book that Hollywood got right in the movie version....

[ProWriter]

Originally posted by Deniz
Everyone has a void they need to fill somehow in them. If you say your an atheist who has everything figured out, I'd like to know your secret. What filled that void for you? (ie alcohol?)

Congratulations. You win the O.com long jump competition for your leap in logic there. YOU (apparently) experience a void in your being that YOU fill with your religious beliefs. Therefore EVERYBODY must experience the same void. YOU (pehaps?) filled your "void" with other things (ie alcohol?) until finding religion, therefore anybody who hasn't found (your?) religion must necessarily fill his void that way.

What about the notion that some of us believe there's no "god", but we're not "depressed" or "worried" about that, and we don't experience any "void" that you felt, much less one that needs to be "filled" by something destructive like alcohol?

Also curious how you respond to the point that differing beliefs in "god" and attempts at forcibly "converting" others to one's own beliefs accounts for more death and destruction in all of recorded human history than everything else combined? If any atheists experience depression, it's related to that, more than anything else.

Finally, how does not believing that there's any god necessarily mean atheists claim to have "figured it all out" any better than anybody else? You're pretty certain that YOU have it all figured out along the lines of your religious beliefs, right? If you're afraid of things you don't know (like where we came from or how it is that there's a universe, etc) and your religion gives you comfort, that's fine. Atheists don't claim they "have it figured out" more than you do, we're just not afraid about not necessarily knowing the answer.

[Deniz]

Ok, maybe I'm the one who got it wrong, sure, maybe nothing has any meaning in the world, maybe we die and become nothing more than maggot food. Still no reason to feel depressed... Sure...

I wouldn't want to live in a world without faith, but it doesnt mean everyone has to convert to 'MY' beleifes, it just means I have to have my faith.

If you dont agree with my views, thats fine, just dont make your point by personally attacking me please.

:)

[ProWriter]

Nobody's "attacking" you. Some of us just think it's presumptuous for you to suggest that we must be "depressed" if we don't share your beliefs. You can think a godless universe and a very brief period of life sandwiched between eons of nonexistence is "depressing". Others might find it more "depressing" to imagine that there are actually people who find consolation in the belief that a lifetime of good deeds and kindness amount to nothing in the eyes of some "creator" who subjects you to eternal torment and burning just because you may have followed a different belief system (or none). I'm not one bit more depressed that I won't exist for the rest of eternity after my death than I was worried about not existing for roughly 12 billion years before I was born. To each his own belief, just don't ridicule or sarcastically (mis)represent other peoples' beliefs if you want yours respected.

[EireHalo82]

Originally posted by Deniz
And as for your comments about the church, I somewhat agree with you but all religions are guilty of such crimes of massive proportions. When I was watching the movie "The Passion" what was going through my head was:

It all started with one guy, ONE man. How did it come to this? So many denominations, so many 'versions' of the good book, so many fanatics blinded by their hatred for the non-beleiver so much pain and suffering caused by all this.

Maybe i could be of some service here, i spent 2 years as a missionary for my church in Ireland and Northern Ireland. It is a very good question to ask yourself, "how did all this start with one man?" "why are there so many churches?" "why so many versions of the Bible?" I'll try not to make this a run-on 10 page type of post, but there is so much information on it that many books have been written on the subject. here is my simple, yet very researched explanation, the best place to start is the beginning:


The Old Testament was written by Prophets, men who were appointed by God to be a witness of Him and to teach his word. Prophets learned from first hand experience that God was real, they spoke with him Face to Face, they heard his voice. These Prophets recorded these teachings and instructions from God, as well as history of the events and dealings of their People.

Throughout the Old Testament God called many Prophets, but many times they were rejected by the people. During the time of Moses the people of Israel had become very stubborn and wicked in the eyes of the Lord, to help them a "lesser law" was given, it became known as the Law of Moses, as Moses was the Prophet and head of the Church at the time. This law was designed as sort of a stepping stone to the higher law, It's laws and regulations, while many seem crude or mundane to the person today, were fitting for the times and were meant to Point towards the Messiah (Heb) or Christ (Grk) who would one day come and bring a fulfillment of the Law through a great and Atoning sacrifice, also bringing redemption from sin and death.

while there are many others who claimed to be the Messiah, Jesus is clearly the most recognized, as his life fulfilled every "jot and tittle" of the prophecies concerning the Messiah.

The last Prophet before Jesus was John The Baptist, who "prepared the way" for him, by baptizing those in the name of the messiah who was to come. Jesus Christ while on earth chose 12 Disciples which later, when his Atonement was completed and the Law of Moses fulfilled, he Ordained Apostles. Telling them "Ye have not chosen me, but i have chosen thee and have ordained you that ye should go and bring forth fruit."

These Apostles were Prophets by definition, true the structure of the Church had changed After Christ, but it was still the same orginazation God had always used, now living a higher law and enviting not just those of born of Israel, but Jew and Gentile alike, that all may be partakers of the Abrahamic Covenant, that all may receive salvation.

So if Christ established one Church why are there many today? and why so many accounts of the Bible?

After Christ, the church was heavily persecuted, and while other Apostles were ordained after the original 12 (Paul being one example)
many of the Apostles were killed, and Eventually there were none left holding the God-given authority to lead the church as Apostles. God had stopped giving revelation and had stopped calling Prophets and Apostles, due to the wickedness not only of the people persecuting the church but of many of those within. (why do you think Paul wrote so many epistles to the churches established in different areas, there was much turmoil within the church at the time)

without leadership the church was left on its own for a time, the members receiving differing information from their different local leaders, and having to rely on their own interpretations of the teachings of the apostles and prophets.

Emperer of Rome, Constantine saw the division among the church and decided for political reasons to make a "universal" church or "Catholic" church. he united the the bishops of different areas, in a meeting at Nicene to come together on the churches official belief system.


skip ahead and you have the reformers, who started the Protestant movement, believing that the Catholic Church was not divinely inspired therefor could not be Christ's true church and recognizing differences in practice of what they believed was taught in the Bible, they broke away and started their own churches. None really claiming to be the "one true church" as none had apostles and prophets, but trying to live the knowledge they had in conformity with what they believed to be true.

Because of difference of opinions over the Bible and it's teachings, thousands of denominations emerged, each taking a unique slant on what they felt true and important.

So that's why there are so many churches.

As for the bible, the word "Bible" comes from the Greek "Biblia" or "Collection"

there are actually 3 versions of the Old Testament, the Hebrew, The Greek known as the "septuigent" and the version used by the Samaritans (as they rejected certain parts of the writings of the Hebrew)

The King James Translation of the Bible, (the source of most english translations) mainly uses the Hebrew Version of the Old Testament, citing the septuigent on certain occasions.

The New Testament is a collection of 3 types of writings, and if you look at how it is arranged you can see this very clearly. the first books of the new testament are what is called "narratives" these include the 4 gospels and the book of acts, these are accounts of the teachings and ministry of Christ and His Apostles. After these books are the "epistles" or letters written by the apostles to different church leaders and congregations throughout the land. and After the Epistles is the "revelatory" writings, there being only one of this type of book in the New Testament, aptly being named "Revelation" this type of writing contains prophecy and revelation as its main purpose.

During the Time of Christ and The Apostles the Bible did not exhist as we know it today. We have the Jews to thank for the Old Testament and the Catholic church to thank for arranging the New Testament. This arrangement of the New Testament happened a couple hundred years after Christ.

Throughout the reform, The Bible, went through many translations into different languages, and multiple translations into the same language, each translation boasting to be "more complete" or "more accurate" than the next. today well over 1000 versions of the Bible exist in circulation, and in virtually every language.

Accuracy of Translation and Language Crossover have a large effect on what is interpereted in the meaning of it's verses by the reader. This as well has led to differences in belief and seperation among the churches.


well, i hope i didn't bore any of you, but that's the best way i could answer the question and while being informative enough for it to really make sense. I personally don't subscribe to protestant or catholic belief, i do believe in a restoration of divine authority of Prophets and Apostles, as prophecied throughout the Bible.

But the most important thing i can leave with anyone, with any belief, in anything, is this:

live what you believe. there is no greater mark of integrity than somoene who lives their individual beliefs the best they know how.

[Deniz]

Which was sort of my point.. We need someone like Constantine to give the message of: 'cut the crap, you're all scaring away people rather than uniting them, start by uniting yourselves'

:(