Tasers for civilian use? OMG...

[maplemac283]

As a police officer, this scares the crap out of me. When I go to do an arrest attempt I am ALSO going to have to worry about being tazed and having my weapon stripped? They have got to be kidding. The FOP is already talking boycotting all Taser products... This is going to be bad bad PR for their company. Stay tuned. I can tell you its gonna be deadly force if someone pulls a taser out on me.



Taken directly from Taser.com:


TASER International, Inc. Announces New TASER(R)
X26C Citizen's Defense System At Consumer Electronics Show, Available to Citizens July 2004
New Product Scheduled to Begin Shipping in Third Quarter

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz., Jan. 8 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- TASER International, Inc. (Nasdaq: TASR; TASRW), a market leader in advanced less-lethal weapons, today announced it will launch a private citizen's defense version of it's flagship TASER X26 conducted energy weapon in July, 2004.

The TASER X26C will use the same form factor as the law enforcement X26. It is the first self-defense system using patented Shaped Pulse(TM) technology available for personal use. The X26C has several design modifications optimized for private self-defense. Whereas the standard law enforcement X26 discharges 19 shaped pulse discharges per second for a period of 5 seconds at a time, the X26C will deliver 15 pulses per second, but for an extended period of up to 60 seconds.

"The new citizen's defense version is designed for maximum time of incapacitation -- using slightly less energy, but delivered for a significantly longer time period allowing the user to get away to safety," said Rick Smith, CEO of TASER International, Inc. "If a registered owner of a TASER X26C uses the device in self-defense and the device is not recovered, we will send the owner a free replacement unit based upon a police report verification of the incident.

"The TASER X26C will also include a discrete, concealable holster system which will allow the user to conveniently carry the X26C. Much like it's larger cousin, the TASER M18, the X26C is a non-firearm and can be carried without permits in 43 states," continued Smith.

The MSRP for the TASER X26C is $999, and final distribution channels will be announced later this year. "I should point out that the TASER X26C is not a mass-market item, but rather a high performance non-lethal self-defense system designed for private citizens who want to defend themselves with the same core technology used by over 4,000 law enforcement agencies," said Smith.

"The law enforcement and professional security markets are still our primary focus, which is one reason why the TASER X26C will not ship until the second half of 2004, allowing our production time to catch up with the overwhelming law enforcement demand. The TASER X26C will not ship until we have met the needs of the professional markets. Further, the first shipments of the TASER X26C will be reserved for law enforcement officers and their families, who are eligible to purchase the TASER X26C at a special, discounted rate," concluded Smith.

About TASER International, Inc.

TASER International, Inc. provides advanced less-lethal weapons for use in the law enforcement, private security, and personal defense markets. Its flagship ADVANCED TASER(R) M26 product uses proprietary technology to incapacitate dangerous, combative, or high-risk subjects that may be impervious to other less-lethal means. Its latest product, the TASER X26 is 60% smaller and lighter than the ADVANCED TASER M26 and reduces injury rates to suspects and officers, thereby lowering liability risk and improving officer safety. TASER(R) technology is currently in testing or deployment at over 4,000 law enforcement and correctional agencies in the U.S. and Canada. For more information go to www.TASER.com .

For further information contact Steve Tuttle, Director of Communications at Steve@TASER.com or call 800-978-2737 ext. 2006

[Contact]

Originally posted by Frogman

I do see your point, but I think you're worrying too much over this.;)

+1, I think that at a Grand a pop, you dont have to worry about your average low-life carrying one, if anything, guns are cheaper to buy, I would be more concerned with a firearm than a tazer.

[swatpup]

I'm thinking, even if they (Tasers) were not available to the public, some scumbags would still have them. Plenty of firearms are not available to the public, but they still find a way to get them.

I agree with the other post, don't stress too much.

[ChesCopPodz]

As a warning to any civilians who read this and think that carrying a tazer is a good idea, As a police officer, if someone pulls a tazer out on me, I'm blazing. One: Tazers look a lot like mini-Glocks, and two:tazers totally incapacitate a person, and I'm NOT going to let someone get that much control over me without fighting back, and from that distance, there's only way to fight back.

[Invisiblecop]

The Taser if available to the general Public will probably go the way of Stun Guns under State Laws. In New York it's illegal to possess a Stun Gun in New York City under the Firearms & Weapons Law.

[GCPD0171]

I think that would pose an interesting discussion on whether the use of a taser against an officer is deadly force. I was shocked by an M26 in a demonstration. I think I would have to consider deadly force if faced with a taser. There is no way I could fight through the shock and defend myself. All I could manage to do was make myself into a ball and scream like a girl:)

[Invisiblecop]

GCPDO171

If you're normal you'd react to the Taser in that manner. LOL! I've seen a subject hit with a Taser and he pulled the probes out and ran! The subject was mentally ill but it was shocking to say the least!

You made an interesting point point concerning the use of the Taser and Deadly Force. I'd have to agree hands down that it would be proper to use Deadly Force in that situation. I don't think many Department Heads would argue against officers who'd use Deadly Force in those situations.

[GCPD0171]

Where it would get interesting is an officer who had never been exposed to the taser using deadly force. I have been exposed and know how my body reacts to it. I could articulate why I used deadly force. An officer who has not is just relying on what they have heard. I would hate to see a good cop hung out over something like this. You guys know how lawyers can twist stuff around.

I forgot to answer the original post. I'm for civilians having them. If a civilian can legally carry a handgun why not a taser? It would reduce the threat of harm to others (civilian shooting at bad guy and hitting someone innocent) while allowing the person to protect themselves. My wife wouldnt carry a gun but I bet she would carry a taser (small one).

[Invisiblecop]

GCPDO171

I've been down that road many times. Attorneys rely on the courtroom as their "territory/turf" -- woe to the "unsuspecting" officer until they are "baptized" into the fire. Mas Ayoob gave an excellent lecture regarding the "Cute Tricks" used by Attorneys in the Court Room.

I've experienced the effects of the Taser, Stun Shield, Shock Belt, etc. It's extremely unpleasant and renders the majority of individuals helpless. There's alway that "exception."

State Laws vary concerning firearms, weapons and self defense. What may be legal in your home state may not be acceptable here in New York.

The only point I'd be wary of when it comes to carrying an item whether it's a firearm, Taser, etc., is the ability of the individual to use the desired method of protection. If the person hesitates it can be wrestled from them and used against them. I'm all for teaching the person how to defend themselves with a firearm or whatever as well as teaching them proper techniques in retaining the weapon. New York is one of those "stringent" States when it comes to permitting civilians to arms themselves or carry defensive tools. If one isn't familiar with the Weapons and Firearms Laws it can be a serious problem.

[GCPD0171]

Your right. When I say citizens should be allowed to carry, I mean citizens who are capable of defending themselves.

[Invisiblecop]

My sentimennts exactly!

[daviscmp]

Does anyone know how effective a Taser is through body armor? I would think that if the electrodes can't penetrate to the skin, the current would be ineffective or at least significantly reduced. Any comments?

[IPDBrad]

Originally posted by Contact
+1, I think that at a Grand a pop, you dont have to worry about your average low-life carrying one, if anything, guns are cheaper to buy, I would be more concerned with a firearm than a tazer.

I have to agreee with this.

Maybe in states where the Taser is legal but carrying a firearm isn't, you may see Taser carry. However, Indiana is a shall issue state. I think folks around here would be more inclined to buy a quality handgun for half the price and with 10 more shots than a Taser.

I can't see any mopes carrying one of these for any reason whatsoever.

First, the cost, second the capacity (so to speak), third the "maintenance". Most mopes don't even clean there firearms, think they are gonna keep the batteries charged on a Taser.

For those who would shoot when one of these are pulled on them. Can't say I would blame you. Not sure what the 15 pulses per sec would feel like for 60, but I was incapacitated by the 19 for 5, and I would find this to be a deadly force situation as well.

This device is used for disarming and incapacitating a subject so as to be able to control them. If this is used as an offensive weapon against an LEO, one can only presume that the next step is disarming the officer or worse.

[Invisiblecop]

Davis Camp

To answerbyour question : For the Taser to be effective the "probbes" must be in direct contact with the subjects' skin. A vest would nullify the "shock value" and interfere with accomplishing the overall task at hand : bringing your intended subject under control.

[GCPD0171]

When I was shocked the probes were attached to my clothes. I think they can work through some clothing but I doubt it would work thru a vest. They don't have to touch the skin, trust me. They taped one probe to my chest and the other in my shoe laces, WOW!

[Delta_V]

Invisiblecop,

Are you sure about that? Depending on the conductivity of the fibers in the vest, it can be possible possible for the charge to pass through the vest and into the wearer. I know that tasers are advertised to be effective when the subject is wearing several layers of heavy clothing, so it would seem like the same principle would apply with a vest.

[Cockney Corner]

Scary - I'm a Police officer and even I am not allowed one over here. Though at some point in the distant future, we may get one for each car. Possibly.

[chaser266]

While the prospect of getting hit by a taser is an unpleasant one, I don't think this is anything new. How is this different from OC, really? Both are "non-lethal" weapons, both can incapacitate a person temporarily. I think the most significant difference is that OC is more readily available, and more affordable. Therefore, OC presents a greater threat.

[thirdgod]

Personally, I think I would react to a Taser as I would any other Deadly Force threat. When I see a handgun-shaped thing pointed at me, and the little red dot appears on me, I'm not going to spend too much time figuring out whether it's a Taser or a firearm, I'd react with the assumption that it's a gun.

[ChesCopPodz]

There is a HUGE difference in being hit with a taser and being sprayed with OC. With OC, you can still fight, you can still run, you can still retain your weapon, you can still use your radio,you can still function, you're just in really bad pain and can't see too well. I've been hit with the taser. Every muscle in your body tightens and you everything goes black (because your eyelids also tighten and close). You are completely paralyzed during the time that the current is applied. Anyone could do anything they wanted to and there isn't a thing you can do about it. The only good thing about the taser is that as soon as the current is stopped, everything returns to normal. However, as long as those electrodes are still attached, all the person has to do is pull the trigger again and it starts all over.

[jliebbe]

Originally posted by Invisiblecop
Davis Camp

To answerbyour question : For the Taser to be effective the "probbes" must be in direct contact with the subjects' skin. A vest would nullify the "shock value" and interfere with accomplishing the overall task at hand : bringing your intended subject under control.

I'm the Taser instructor for our academy and I can tell you first-hand that the probes do not have to be in contact with your skin for the Taser to be effective. The reason the 50,000 volts are so important is that the voltage is the primary factor in determining the distance the electricity can arc through air, clothing, etc. and still close a circuit. At 50,000 volts, the Taser's juice can jump through two inches of clothing and other material so long as it isn't completely blocked by non-conductive material.

How a Taser reacts to a vest is totally dependent on the vest. The nice, thin breathable vests won't do much to slow down the electrical arc while our older, heavier, more solid vests will prevent the arc from reaching our bodies.

[jliebbe]

As far as which non-lethal device has the greatest threat to us, I'd definitely say the Taser. I've been hit with OC, CN, CS, control sticks, electrified riot shields and a host of other non-lethal units and I have to say the Taser takes the cake. My "ride" on the Taser when I became a certified instructor was the most incapacitated feeling I've had in my entire life -- for those few seconds every ounce of fight and resistance was totally eliminated from me.

Even with that though, I'm not overly concerned about a civilian model for the Taser. They're already out there and they're not that popular due to their size and expense. I'm still more conscienscious of the civilian with a handgun. ;)

[rebbryan]

tasers are made to look like guns for a reason, if someone pulled an airsoft gun of you then they'd still be shot, same goes for tasers. whoever made this thread can't think right, i'd be more worried about someone whipping out a gun than a taser :confused:

[jliebbe]

It would be better said that Tasers were made to "feel" like our firearms than "look" like them. The feel was implemented so that all of our training in firearms handling could be applied to the Taser use. The original Air Taser (predecessor to the M26) was more wand shaped and the complaints were that officers using them had to learn how to aim and manipulate the device, thus the design of the M26 which, to me, looks like a slightly oversized Glock 22.

Taser has actually put some effort in to make sure that by appearance you can get the "less lethal" idea. Black Taser models have bright yellow side panels and you can order your M26 in a solid yellow body. The blast doors on the front of the unit are stripped yellow/black as well for the same reason. They want to make sure that when one officer deploys his or her Taser that other officers don't jump the gun, as it is, and draw and fire their sidearms.

[maplemac283]

whoever made this thread can't think right,


Is it possible for you to offer your opinion without being insulting?

[TPM]

The new X26 Taser cost around $800.00. They do not have the range or as powerful as the LE Taser models www.taser.com.

This is the same concern there was about pepper spray when it first came out. Most cans of pepper spray cost around $5.00 to $10.00. They are now selling pepper spray which have a SHU rating of 5 million.

[glencannon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GCPD0171
[B]Where it would get interesting is an officer who had never been exposed to the taser using deadly force. I have been exposed and know how my body reacts to it. I could articulate why I used deadly force. An officer who has not is just relying on what they have heard. I would hate to see a good cop hung out over something like this. You guys know how lawyers can twist stuff around.

You know, they gave me a gun and didn't shoot me with it first. Having seen the videos and talked to cops who were voluntarily tased I'm pretty sure that I could justify my use of deadly force without getting zapped....cause there's no way in hell I'm gonna let anyone tase me!!!!

[jliebbe]

Originally posted by glencannon
You know, they gave me a gun and didn't shoot me with it first. Having seen the videos and talked to cops who were voluntarily tased I'm pretty sure that I could justify my use of deadly force without getting zapped....cause there's no way in hell I'm gonna let anyone tase me!!!!

I think the concern here is only where we're talking about a cop who is carrying a Taser and has not "taken a ride" himself/herself. To get qualified to carry any less-lethal weapon most departments and training academies require you to take a hit or a ride. In OC it's so you know how much fight you can still have and so you can deal with the bit of spray you'll prolly get on yourself when you or another officer sprays a suspect. In baton it's learning strike zones and how to stay in the fight even if you're getting a bit of pain yourself. In Taser it's so when that news anchor or defense attorney down the road says, "How can you claim it's less-lethal and has no after effects?" "I was shot with the Taser myself before I started carrying it, I know what it does and doesn't do because I've felt it first-hand."

For the cop who hasn't dealt with Taser before, justifying deadly force isn't too difficult. We're taught that if it looks like a gun and it's pointed at us then it's a gun -- move to deadly force. For those who have heard about it they probably know that it can and will totally incapacitate them, so, if the badguy shoots them with a Taser it very likely could be so he could get to the officer's sidearm without a fight (definite justification there).

For you, you don't want to take a ride on the Taser and that's valid so long as your department doesn't decide to issue the units to all of the troops. If you don't want to take a ride, don't carry the tool -- leave it in the toolbox of those who are willing to train with and fully understand what they're dealing with.

[rebbryan]

Taser has actually put some effort in to make sure that by appearance you can get the "less lethal" idea. Black Taser models have bright yellow side panels and you can order your M26 in a solid yellow body. The blast doors on the front of the unit are stripped yellow/black as well for the same reason

if someone still pulled one out on me they'd still get shot, less than lethal can always turn lethal in unexpected circumstances

Is it possible for you to offer your opinion without being insulting?

not if the person's overreacting with an "OMG" to people carrying tazers when people carry guns everyday