Mother England

[co911]

I'd be interested to read views from the Aussies and Kiwis about why their police services so closely resemble those in the UK? Apart from throwing on an akubra, Australian and NZ police services seem to be a carbon copy of the Brits. The uniforms remain very similar, the blue and white checkered police signs everywhere, the rank structure, custody procedures, huge depts over large geographical areas etc. It's not as if the UK has the most effective community policing strategies, or law enforcement technology and equipment, so why the reluctancy to strike out on your own?

[JohnKelly]

911 - Your comparison between the British Police and the Australian Police Forces (I'll let the Kiwis speak for themselves) and your observations of the similarities could also be applied to many other aspects of Australian society. Our system of Government is based on the British system, we have the same Head of State as Britain and our Military Command and Rank structure is based on the British system, but we have taken the best of both worlds and adopted them to suit our own unique and enviable lifestyle Down Under.

Our National Flag comprises both the Stars of the Southern Cross and the Union Jack and as the saying goes, "We've the Stars to show us where we are going and the Old Flag to show us where we've been"

The short answer is that Australia was originally a British Colony and even to this day, most of the settlers come from an Anglo Celtic background and it is their heritage that has developed Australia into the Independent Commonwealth Nation that she is today.

So, its not just the Police Forces that have similarities, there are many other apects of Australian society that could be said to have similarities to Britain; we drive on the same side of the road, we also use a knife and fork, we have biscuits instead of cookies, we have shops instead of stores and we spell colour and neighbourhood the correct way. We also love Cricket and love to beat Mother England at any game of sport and we usually do.

;)

Cheers,

JohnKelly
Australia

[Sleuth]

The reverse of your question is, "Why is American polciing so different?" I'll take a shot at that. OZ and the Kiwi's negotiated their way from colony to commonwealth. We fought our way to freedom. We have kept some things (Sheriff, Common Law), but as 'the melting pot' we absorbed and adopted from all over the globe, as well as inventing some of our own! Not saying it is better, just different.
We "Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome".

[JohnKelly]

Originally posted by Sleuth
The reverse of your question is, "Why is American polciing so different?" I'll take a shot at that. OZ and the Kiwi's negotiated their way from colony to commonwealth. We fought our way to freedom. We have kept some things (Sheriff, Common Law), but as 'the melting pot' we absorbed and adopted from all over the globe, as well as inventing some of our own! Not saying it is better, just different.
We "Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome".

Sleuth, with respect, I think that you are way off topic. The question posed by co911 makes no reference to the American System of Policing

JohnKelly
Australia

[KL]

Here in Canada we also have a lot of similarities to the British structure. I think it is a pretty good way to operate.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough knowledge of any other systems but the American one. One superficial but obvious difference is the use of military ranks such as lieutenant and captain versus inspector and superintendent. The other is that the competetive nature of American society is demonstrated in their plethora of agencies with overlapping jurisdictions. I doubt that is a better way to go about it.

Does anyone know anything about other policing models that are significantly different from the British one?

[PC August]

I disagree. I'm not so sure that Canada has that much in common with the British system. Sure the rank titles are different, sometimes (many American dept's have inspectors and superintendants), but Canadian police agencies probably have more in common with American ones than British, nowadays. The uniforms and cruisers for example are virtually the same for US and Canada. Canadian cop uniforms don't look like Brits and they sure don't drive cars like ours. Bobby hats? No guns?! Those crazy sirens? The judges wearing ridiculous wigs?

Lots of differences, thankfully. We have had US and British officers do exchanges where I work, and the Brits have a lot tougher time adjusting.

As for the whole Mother England thing, I have my own strong thoughts on all that, but that is for another forum...

[co911]

I'd have to agree with PC August, I see very little in Canadian policing which suggests it is "English", rather it seems very North American. This is not true of the Australian and particularly the NZ cops. The kiwis don't carry firearms, nor do they want to as a group, like their British counterparts, and until recently the NZers were even wearing the traditional bobby hats.

Australian depts seem to have made some small moves away from the English influence. Still, with operations such as "safer streets" being named after the London Met ones, and the hiring by the NSWP of an English Commisioner, even Oz's largest depts seem reluctant to establish their identity. I have to wonder why?

[JohnKelly]

Sorry folks but you have lost me. I just can't figure out how you can take the subject of this Thread, which was a request posed by co911 for the views of Aussies and Kiwis about why in his opinion their Police Services so closely resemble those in the UK and turn it into a subject on how America fought its way to freedom and a comparison between the North American Policing and Judicial system to that of the British.

:confused:

P/S - co911 - I've just read your latest Post as above and me now thinks that you are the Bait Layer from way back - me old mate.;)

Why don't you ask the question at AussieCops?

You direct you question to Aussies and Kiwis and then ignore the only Australian reply that you have received and then offer your opinions on the subject to a Canadian.

Bait - (The Australian Modern Oxford Dictionary) - "To Torment by Jeering"

Cheers,

JohnKelly
Australia

[PC August]

Originally posted by JohnKelly
Sorry folks but you have lost me. I just can't figure out how you can take the subject of this Thread, which was a request posed by co911 for the views of Aussies and Kiwis about why in his opinion their Police Services so closely resemble those in the UK and turn it into a subject on how America fought its way to freedom and a comparison between the North American Policing and Judicial system to that of the British.

:confused:


So what, mate? It's a forum, if this is the first time you've ever noticed that things got slightly off the original post then you haven't been here as long as your profile would indicate. The topic posed a question which could reasonably be addressed towards any nation in the Commonwealth. I don't see how it got so off topic to you.

Confused as to why you're confused.

[NSWCop]

Originally posted by co911
[Australian depts seem to have made some small moves away from the English influence. Still, with operations such as "safer streets" being named after the London Met ones, and the hiring by the NSWP of an English Commisioner, even Oz's largest depts seem reluctant to establish their identity. I have to wonder why? [/B]

What a load of absolute cr*p!!!

The New South Wales Police is one of the largest in the world, comprising of almost 14000 sworn officers.

It covers a geographical area larger than a lot of European countries and polices an ethnically diverse population.

As earlier stated by JohnKelly, Australia was originally a British colony. To be exact we were originally 6 British Colonies, prior to Federation in 1901.

The Westminster system of government is used by not only Australia, but by a vast majority of the countries of the Commonwealth, including Canada.

The New South Wales Police is responsible for providing a policing service to all settlements, towns, cities, shires, etc in the State Of New South Wales. There are no independent city/town/county policing services in any of the Australian States.
Some local councils employ Rangers or Ordinance officers. These are mainly responsible for enforcing The Companion Animal Act (i.e. dog catcher) and some parking enforcement.

I believe that the reason the Australian model of Police Force more closely resembles the British is due to a number of factors,
(1) Our British andecedents..
(2) Our remoteness from American influences during our formative years as a nation. Unlike our Canadian cousins.
(3) Our ability to assess the pros and cons of various other systems and come up with a system that suits us.

co911 - to you it may seem that our system is inferior and a pale imitation of the British. Bullsh*t!
We are a nation of limited resourses and must marshal what we have the best we can.
Our system works.. for us. Probably won't work for you or the Canadians, ..but so far..it works for us!

Oh, as an aside, the Australian Federal Police is one department going against the grain. They no longer have Constables, etc (except in the ACT Uniformed Branch).
They are now "Agents" a'la the FBI.
(Personally I think this is a stupid move, to model yourself on the FBI. If you have to have an American Model, I would have thought the ATF or US Marshalls a much better example.)

Yes, the NSW Police have their own identity, as do the other departments in Australia.

:D

They have an AUSTRALIAN identity, not an American!!!:cool:

[co911]

NSWCop, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt even though you started off your reply by making a statement which is stretching reality. If the NSWP are one of the largest police depts in the world, how do you account for the the NYPD, SAPS, Japanese Police Force, RCMP, or Chinese National Police? If your comment was intended to establish the "Australianess" of NSWP due to size alone, I guess it doesn't help that the London Metro Police number around 28,000 members.

Your argument is hard to follow as you state on one hand that NSWP have their own identity, but conversely you list a number of English influences Australia inherited, and which still exist. I never made a comment that your, "system is inferior and a pale imitation of the British". Your words, not mine. If your system works so well why is it that your comrades in arms are CONSTANTLY complaining about it? When I correspond with Australian officers, especially those in NSW, they speak repetitively of the lack of resources, manpower, Internal Affairs problems, political correctness, promotional debacles, corruption, lack of judicial/political/public support, media biase, low pay, inappropriate uniforms, unfair transfer policies, recruiting problems, political interference, etc etc.

Your argument falls even further with the statement that the AFP have no uniformed constables? Who provides general policing services to the citizens of Canberra? And perhaps you can explain how the AFP can possibly model themselves on either the USMS or the BATFE, two federal agencies which not only have limited areas of investigation, but are charged with a totally different role to the AFP?

Finally, lets have a look at this "Australian Identity" your police services have. Community Safety Officers, Commisioned Officers are ranked Inspector through Commissioner, Youth Liaison Officers, Prosecutors, Police Colleges, Custody Managers, or...have I accidently named aspects of an English police dept? Which was the purpose of the post. I'm interested in how your depts differ from the English ones, not replicate them.

[NSWCop]

Dear co911:

I suggest you read your original post and then please go back and read mine.

You asked for reasons why the Australian Police Forces/Services were so alike the British. I believe I (and JohnKelly) adequately answered your question.

I then went on to express my opinion as to why we were not like the American Forces and to define our differences.

Sure, we have the same ranks etc, as British forces. In your American forces you have captains, lieutenants, etc. These were British military ranks long before they were American. Also, I believe that San Fransisco has Inspectors, Louisiana is a Commonwealth, and has Constables? Or am I mistaken?

And what is the boss of the NYPD called "Commissioner" or what?

I suggest that your main bone of contention is that Australian Forces/Services are not American enough for you.

Too bad.

:p

Yeah, we have a British tradition. But we are an Australian Force.

As to your rather off beat assertion that, because we bitch about the job, it is because of the British influence, then I suggest that all police forces must then be British.

Why don't you surf the varied internet forums and see how many American Leo's complain about the same thing their Australian counterparts do.

I don't recall ever saying our system is good, just different!

You, obviously, live in LEO heaven where no-one ever bitches about their bosses, the political influence, the lack of resourses, cars that burst into flame after an MVA, etc.

Sh*t, how do I get a job on your Job?

co911, I am begining to see that you are indeed, as JohnKelly stated, a bait-layer!

Oh, by the way, I DID mention the AFP's uniformed branch (See the 3rd paragraph from the bottom of my last Post).

But hey, never let the truth stop the vitriol eh??

And strangely enough I do realise the difference between the FBI, ATF and US Marshalls. What I was refering to was the cultural aspects which differentiate these organs from each other. My point being that I would rather the AFP be more like the Marshalls or the ATF then the FBI, culturally. Next time I'll type a bit slower!

And, the reason I mentioned the size of the New South Wales Police is to indicate that we are not some penne-ante three officer rural squad, that is all. I meant no denigration of any other force.

But, enough from me.

I'll leave it to you to twist my words and meanings and ignore vital portions of this post in your reply.

love and kisses..

NSWCop (and loving it!)

:D :D

[co911]

NSWcop ("and loving it"), I'm assuming you are not then stationed at Bankstown, Auburn, Redfern or Mt Druitt?

It was a little difficult to take seriously a post which starts off
"What a load of absolute cr*p!!!", even if you did some some relevant points. I'm still trying to work out some of your latest post. Yes, the US has depts with captains and Lts. But neither the Brits nor the Aussies do. And while SFPD may have inspectors this rank is the exception rather than the rule. Louisiana is Commonwealth, so are many US states, but they are part of the United States of America, a federalist republic.

Your suggestion that Aussie depts are not "American" enough for me, misses the point of my post. I've been there, I've ridden with them, but am interested in why after hundreds or years they are slow to move away from the UK model. Your dept may be an "Australian Force", but is not the Queen of England also the Queen of Australia? Do you not swear allegiance to her when you take your oath of office? Does your patch not have the English Monarch's crown on it?

I'd be interested in why you would prefer the cultural aspects of the AFP to be more like the USMS or ATF, rather than the FBI.

[Beowulf]

co911 - I suppose the Aussies think if it aint broken dont fix it. If the UK version works for them why not use it?

The US split from the empire prior to the formation of our first Police Force the Met in 1824m which is why your model is different.

You do have one or two hangovers from Colonial days, one of which would be the jury system.

I would add that here in England the oath no longer contains any reference to the Queen. I would be surprised if it did in Oz.

[gazza]

Yeah...................but what about Tasmania????????????;)

[NSWCop]

Dear co911:

Thank you for your last post. It certainly placed things in perspective for me.

As you say, JohnKelly and I make the same points. The facts are immutable. Our Police Forces/Services are based on the British model. But "based" only. We are our own people, have our own systems, that work for us. As I have maintained all along.

As to why we haven't moved forther along, that presupposes that your model is better than ours. I am certainly not prepared to assert that, any more than I am prepared to assert ours is the "better" model, or is the British.

What you fail to see is, as an outsider (no matter what you'ver seen nor how many ride-alongs you may have had, you're still an outsider)our system, as all other policing models, has evolved to meet our specific and different needs.

As I have said before (I'm getting RSI typing this, maybe you'll be able to read it now), our system works for us.

That is all I am going to say on the subject. If you still haven't got it by now, too bad.

Now, on a personal note, as you seem to want to bring it to that level:

(1) I have noted in previous posts of yours that you don't consider any person to be a LEO unless they work in what YOU define to be a busy area.

This is a puerile yardstick which is totally subjective.

(2) For your infomation I not only have worked in a Single Unit Station for quite a few years, I have also worked as a Lock-up Keeper in a Far Western Station. If you actually know as much about the NSWPS as you claim, you will know what that means! Not that it is any of your business!!

(3) Yes, I am in a "beach" LAC. So F*cking what? After over 10 years in the "scrub" I'm damn well entitled, and don't need you sneering at me!

As to me being unsuitable to join your Job. If you're there, I quit!!
(BTW, what actually IS your Job?. You never said.)

Are you actually a Cop, or does the "co" in co911 stand for "communications officer?"


:D

[Sgt Lobster]

To my mind it is hardly a surprise that countries with close historical links have similarities in their policing systems.
The UK has adopted numerous American ideas such as Neighbourhood Watches and Problem Oriented Policing. Officers also enjoy visits to Australia, Canada, NZ, and numerous other countries to study their policing systems. Our force currently has a road safety project based on the one used in Victoria, and I am sure that numerous other ideas have been borrowed from our colleagues abroad.

Policing in the UK is constantly evolving, and has certainly changed markedly in the 20+ years I have been in the job. No doubt this is the case too in Australia and NZ, which perhaps speaks volumes for the adaptability of our policing systems.

Lobster.

[6233108]

Topic...yawn....boring :o :o and unless you work there who cares. The other countries police services seem very uniform compared to our system of policing. Maybe because they work for the national government or state.

[gazza]

Go hard NSW...lmaooooooo..your right who gives a s*&t a cop is a cop no matter where he is you catch em and we will keep em;)

[co911]

Yeah gazza, a cop in the Whitsundays totally compares to a cop in Jo'burg or Detroit, sure they do.

[Sgt Lobster]

What exactly is a 'British' Police Force? The largely unarmed locally organized forces you find in Mainland UK, or a nationally organized para-military colonial force?

Until the late 1960s, there were 121 forces covering England & Wales an area the size of Florida. We still have 43 plus a further 8 in Scotland and the PSNI in Northern Ireland. In addition there are other police forces maintained by various Government and Statutory bodies e.g Ministry of Defence Police & British Transport Police. So I'm not so sure how closely the policing structure in Australia & NZ actually mirrors that in the UK?


Lobster.

[Beowulf]

I dont think they are interested Lobster, they seem to be in their own private ****ing contest.

[Sgt Lobster]

Beowulf I think you're right.

[NSWCop]

Originally posted by Beowulf
I dont think they are interested Lobster, they seem to be in their own private ****ing contest.

:(
Sorry folks. I am now shaking it and putting it away!!

:eek:

I've said all I'm going to on this subject!!

:p

See youse all later!!

:cool:

[krj]

Well - Damn! :( :mad: :p Does it REALLY have to end here??

I've been having BIG FUN following this thread. :D

[KL]

This thread has certainly taken some heated turns since I last looked in! As I recall, this started as a suble put-down of the Aussies and New Zealanders for not having their own unique policing style.

I think we all have more similarities than differences. The UK and NZ guys don't carry guns, but they don't face them much either. The US guys have lots of guns and come up against them all the time. I guess us in Canada and Australia are somewhere in the middle. American ranks are more military than those of us in the Commonwealth. We all deal with bad guys who are presumed innocent until proven guilty and have strong legislative protection of their rights.

Can someone give me a significant difference between the Aussies and the Americans, the English or the Canadians, et cetera...

Please don't say Bobby hats versus Stetsons! :)

[krj]

Well - if you want to go "pseudo law enforcement" I seem to recall "Meter Maids" way-back-when on the Gold Coast wearing gold bikinis, sashas and high heeled shoes as they were dishing out parking tickets :D

Don't recall ever seeing any of THOSE in London England (or London Ontario for that matter!).

[gazza]

Naaaaaaaa,,,krj the meter maids used to put money in the meters before the grey ghost came along and lumbered you for not having put some $$in the meters the girls would get there before em and make sure your car was paid up.........some times the meters were clogged up with drool :D

[co911]

Damn you krj, one mention of "bikinis" and I lost my train of thought. KL the thread wasn't intended to be a put down, and if it came across that way, I apologize to whoever it offended. I didn't post that US law enforcment was better, in fact in some areas I think we are way behind, but I was interested in why after so many yrs cops in the UK and Oz and NZ are still so similar. You asked for a difference, what about the role of the Sheriff? In many parts of the US they are a full service law enforcement agency. This is not the case in the other nations, one of many examples.

Mr Kelly had some good responses, as did Sgt Lobster, thank you Sirs, but NSWCop took it all a little TOO personally, and has now sulked off. VERY Un-Australian, and I notice he didn't bother to answer the questions I asked.

[krj]

Originally posted by gazza
Naaaaaaaa,,,krj the meter maids used to put money in the meters - the girls would get there before em and make sure your car was paid up.........some times the meters were clogged up with drool :D

OK - gotta ask - where'd the girls keep their change for the meters? :p

That's it - I obviously have nothing useful to add to this conversation. I'm shutting up now. :D

[Sgt Lobster]

co911,

We still have Sheriffs in England & Wales, the attached link gives some insight into the setup:

http://www.priory.lancaster.ac.uk/duchy.html

I've actually given evidence in the court in the link. It is in Lancaster castle, and was intended for civil proceedings and is very grand. The adjoining assize or criminal court is much smaller and nowhere near as grand. Lancaster is stepped in history and well worth a visit.

Not sure about Sheriffs in Northen Ireland; but in Scotland they are judges who hear the bulk of cases, where they sit with our without a jury depending on the severity of the case.



Lobster.:)

[Sgt Lobster]

I can remember seeing photographs of the Australian 'meter maids' and I'm pretty certain they also made the TV news. Weren't they employed by the local shopkeepers?


Lobster.

[NSWCop]

The Gold Coast Meter Maids were employed by the local chamber of commerce. HOWEVER, there were as I recall 2 rival organisations. (Only on the Gold Coast).

One were the girls in the gold lame bikinis, the others I believe wore blue (though I'm not too sure about that). At one point it came to violence, with civil suits, restraining orders, the whole box and dice!:eek:

And don't forget the beer wenches of the one-day international cricket!

Unfortunately now banned as the fun police decided that they were not assisting the responsible service of alcohol.:mad:

[Ex-plod]

I may have joined this one a little late but I was pleased to see the officers from the Antipdes standing up for our ways and I must agree that co911 seemed to be stirring it up a tad! I did 18 years in London but would never insult an officer from a smaller or quieter force with an insinuation that I was better than them because I came from a big city.Small towns may have fewer people but when the wheel comes off theres a lot less help around to get it put back on, getting your head kicked in hurts wherever it takes place but at least in a city you know helps nearby.

[PhilipCal]

We do seem to have gotten off the original topic or thread. As an American officer,I can only say that each of the jurisdictions mentioned has it's own unique problems and methods of addressing them.
I will not for one moment say that American methods are better than those of Canada,Great Britain,Australia,or elsewhere. I will submit to each of you that we are members of a unique profession,and that we can all learn much from one another.
I can state that one aspect of American law enforcement,that of the small town,is largely the desire of a community to exercise local control of it's police dept.In many instances,such a local entity is better served by a regional or district agency as is the case in many UK and Commonwealth jurisdictions.The local governing body simply will not accept the loss of control that would result.Should a major crime occur in such an entity,it would be investigated by county or state police in any event,as the local force would be without the required resources.

[PhilipCal]

The title "Constable" is very much a part of American law enforcement for better or worse.In some jurisdictions they are very well trained,very professional,and a welcome part of the law enforcement community.In other areas,they are elected,often unpaid,not trained,and pose a danger to the public at large.In Great Britain,Canada,and the Commonwealth,the term Constable is a rank equivilant to that of trooper,officer,or deputy in American usage.
On the San Francisco Police Dept,I believe the term "Inspector" denotes a detective.On other agencies it is a rank,and probably a fair equal to it's British ,Canadian,Australian,NZ counterparts.
A Commonwealth is a state in the American Union,and we do have several.Hope this hasn't caused more confusion.

[JohnKelly]

Yes PhilipCal you have caused confusion but who cares, in the end we all do the same job, ie same sh1t, different places.;)

I have heard the term Constable mentioned in the US but I don't think that it means the same as in Australia, Canada or the UK.

Just to add to the confusion, I think that your Constable is equivalent to our Sheriff. A Sheriff in our system is an 'Officer of the Court' and is basically responsible for the issue and process of Civil Warrants. In the past they were called Bailiffs.

Constable is a Rank of a Police Officer, there is a bit more to it than that, but that is basically what it is.

Our Ranks are as follows - Constable, Senior Constable, Sergeant, Senior Sergeant, Inspector, Superintendent, Commander, Asst Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner and Commissioner.

I have also heard the term Inspector mentioned in US Police Forces and I am not sure if it is equivalent to the Rank of Lieutenant that is also used in US Police Forces!

The Rank of Inspector in traditional British style Police Forces is equivalent to the military Rank of Captain.

So, there you go, more confusion. :D

Cheers,

JohnKelly
Australia

[Sgt Lobster]

The current rank structure in Provincial UK forces (those outside London) is as follows: constable; sergeant; inspector; chief inspector; superintendent; chief superintendent; assistant chief constable; deputy chief constable and chief constable. In the 2 'Home Office'forces responsible for policng London, the rank structure changes above chief superintendent. In the City of London Police you have: commander; assistant commissioner and commissioner. In the Metropolitan Police you have: commander, deputy assistant commissioner, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner and commissioner.

Other large forces such as the Ministry of Defence Police and British Transport Police follow the Provincial rank structure. I'm not sure what ranks you get in small forces such as Port of Dover or Mersey Tunnel Police.




Lobster. :)

[PhilipCal]

Cheers back to you John,
Sorry about the confusion.You're right though,same job,different place. Best to you and all the folks in your agency!! Great talking with you.