To cite or not to cite, that is the question.

[kirch]

Here's the situation, I would appreciate any insights, suggestions, comments.

This morning I was driving into work. I was stopped at a light before taking a left turn to get onto the major thoroughfare. The light turned green just as I was taking a drink of coffee and, before I could set the coffee down and go, the guy behind me started laying on his horn.

When we got onto the 4-lane divided highway, he started tailgating me and trying to pass me in the left lane. But he was blocked by another vehicle. So he got back behind me and then passed me on the right, using an exit lane.

Upon passing me, he pulled in front of me and immediately hit his brakes -- almost like he was trying to get me to hit him or back off. After this, he accelerated away, zipping in and out of traffic (most of the time without use of a directional, I might add).

This whole exchange got me a bit ticked off and I started following the guy at a safe distance, fully intending to confront him when he reached his destination. I figured I would identify myself as a police officer and ask for his ID so I could later cite for various traffic offenses. I was out of uniform, unarmed and driving my POV.

Luckily, he had quite a ways to go and I started thinking better of my plan. Or I should say, I started thinking with my head rather than my heart. So I wrote down the guy's plate and broke off.

This didn't occur in the municipality where I work, but I'm deputized in the county. So I technically COULD write him a citation (or more) the next time I'm at the PD and mail it to him. The question is, SHOULD I write him a citation.

I've never written an off-duty citation, so I'm curious how others feel about the situation.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by kirch

This didn't occur in the municipality where I work, but I'm deputized in the county. So I technically COULD write him a citation (or more) the next time I'm at the PD and mail it to him. The question is, SHOULD I write him a citation.

I've never written an off-duty citation, so I'm curious how others feel about the situation.

You did the right thing, I think. I don't know how many times I've had jerks pull that stuff on me on my way to work... An out of uniform and unarmed confrontation over a traffic incident like that is asking for problems. Personally, I'd rather pull them out of the car and beat them with a tire iron, but that's something I'm working on. ;)

The problem with sending a citation to the registered owner is proving he was driving the car. Would you be able to ID this guy 4 months down the road in court?

People like that will get caught by somebody on duty, eventually.

[placa105]

If it were me, I would not write a citation.

Rather, I'd grab a deputy over his jurisdiction, and the two of us would make a house call. No ticket, just a courtesy call.

"remember me? No? Well, I remember you!"

Its a reminder to that adam-henry that he just does not know who he might be road-raging with.

[Mike G from NC]

I agree with placa105

[sflcop]

I agree with what has been said. I have had things like that happen many times. It is easier to get away, rather than get involved off duty. I have a take home car, and people are just as stupid around those when they see you are in jeans and a T shirt. I have yet to cite somebody off duty in my take home. I have however cited/stopped people on the way to and from work while in uniform.

[shooter1201]

I was out of uniform, unarmed and driving my POV.



First mistake. I am ALWAYS armed, on duty and off.

When we got onto the 4-lane divided highway, he started tailgating( Cite #1: Following too closely. ) me and trying to pass me in the left lane. But he was blocked by another vehicle. So he got back behind me and then passed me on the right, using an exit lane. ( Cite #2: Improper lane usage. )

Upon passing me, he pulled in front of me and immediately hit his brakes -- almost like he was trying to get me to hit him or back off. ( Cite #3: Reckless driving. ) After this, he accelerated away, zipping in and out of traffic (most of the time without use of a directional, I might add). ( Cite #4: Speeding )

I've written tickets when off-duty and in my POV, but ONLY when I couldn't get the assistance of an ON-duty officer. I've also MAILED tickets to people I've observed committing traffic offenses/ordinance violations while off-duty. :D

[swatpup]

You did the right thing in not contacting him at the time. But, it all depends on how bad do you want to tag this guy. If you saw his face good, run the vehicle's plate, get the R/O info and get a DL for him. Then (if you have the capability), check DMV photos, booking photos. Match 'em up and cite away.

I know that's a wee bit complicated, but if he ticked me off like that, I would make him a PRIORITY PROJECT. That guy is going to get himself or someone else killed. Sounds like he needs some sort of wake-up call....or a forearm shiver to the chest.

[6233108]

Call the on duty guys thats what they're for.

[Bart]

you did the right thing man. sometimes, you just gotta let them go and forget about them. i drive an unmarked car. i was driving home one day and some jack off did something similar to me. when we got on i-95 he started to cut me off and brake on purpose. i was in my jusrisdiction so i decided to stop him and give him a piece of my mind. things got ugly, we exchanged words, we fought, and i locked him up. i had to put in 3 hours of overtime, had to explain to my bosses what happened, and i was late picking up a friend at the airport. needless to say, it wasnt worth it. i didnt start the fight but i couldve avoided it. i was off duty. i didnt stop him because i was doing my job. i stopped him because he made me angry. i learned that i cant act out of anger anymore. this was like 3 or 4 years ago. im alot more tame now than i was a few years back.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Bart
i was off duty. i didnt stop him because i was doing my job. i stopped him because he made me angry. i learned that i cant act out of anger anymore. this was like 3 or 4 years ago. im alot more tame now than i was a few years back.

Bingo! Very well spoken, Bart! I have never had nor have I heard of a call to assist an off duty officer that wasn't something like that. When I was young, I thought I was John Frigging Wayne. I learned that it's easier to let it go. This guy's life will catch up to him. It always does in the long run. Going to his house with another deputy isn't going to accomplish a damn thing except stir you up again. Especially if he looks at the two of you, says "F*** off" and slams the door. And they ain't a thing you can do about it.

Life's too short to let someone like that get under your skin.

[Frank Booth]

If you got a look at him, I'd mail a ticket to the registered owner and decide if that was him or not in court.

[K9 Police]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
If you got a look at him, I'd mail a ticket to the registered owner and decide if that was him or not in court.

LOL!

First mistake. I am ALWAYS armed, on duty and off

I don't see how that is a mistake. Some officers don't want a gun on their hip ALL THE TIME.

K9

[Bart]

Originally posted by K9 Police
LOL!



I don't see how that is a mistake. Some officers don't want a gun on their hip ALL THE TIME.

K9

i hear that, 10 hours a day, 4 days a week is enough for me. any more than that and i'll be walking crooked. lol

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Bart
i hear that, 10 hours a day, 4 days a week is enough for me. any more than that and i'll be walking crooked. lol

I carry a pocket knife. I've never stabbed anybody though.... But I might:mad:

[squad51]

hes got a knife!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[SW4747]

How about you just forget about it. That happens to everyone. People are just jack asses.

As for you guys that don't carry off-duty. I think you are silly not to, but that is just my opinion.

I for 1 would not want to be the *** hole cop inside a store when it gets robbed and someone gets shot, and I'm standing there with my cock in my hand.

[shooter1201]

I don't see how that is a mistake. Some officers don't want a gun on their hip ALL THE TIME.

I don't PLAN on having a flat or an accident, but I carry a spare tire, a First Aid kit AND a cellphone.

[sflcop]

I have to agree. Sometimes you just have to let it go. Stopped someone in your POV and wrote them. That to me is nonsense. What authority do you have at that point. I cannot imagine my supervisors, or anyone's for that matter being too happy about that. As far as mailing citations, we cannot do that in Florida. The citation must be signed for by the operator of the vehicle. Now you can always run the plate and sit in front of his house, and wait for him to leave :D :mad: :D :mad:

[Bart]

Originally posted by SW4747

I for 1 would not want to be the *** hole cop inside a store when it gets robbed and someone gets shot, and I'm standing there with my cock in my hand.

the thing is i wouldnt be the ********* cop in the store while its getting held up. when im off the clock, im not a cop. if im not getting paid, im not going to work. besides, if a dude has the drop on the joint, why would i endanger everybody in the store by pulling a piece and trading shots with a scumbag who has no regard for the people in the background? the object is to eliminate the danger not create more danger by shooting it out with innocent bystanders in the middle. give the guy what he wants so he can leave quicker. once he leaves, you can follow and provide a good description to the responding cops.

[SW4747]

Originally posted by Bart
the thing is i wouldnt be the ********* cop in the store while its getting held up. when im off the clock, im not a cop. if im not getting paid, im not going to work. besides, if a dude has the drop on the joint, why would i endanger everybody in the store by pulling a piece and trading shots with a scumbag who has no regard for the people in the background? the object is to eliminate the danger not create more danger by shooting it out with innocent bystanders in the middle. give the guy what he wants so he can leave quicker. once he leaves, you can follow and provide a good description to the responding cops.

And how may times do perps come in and shoot the clerk, just for ****s and giggles. Enough. How about if you are getting robbed.

Sorry to tell you this, but you are a cop 24/7, that's just the way it works. I'm sure if something happened, you would get OT anyway.

[Bart]

Originally posted by SW4747
And how may times do perps come in and shoot the clerk, just for ****s and giggles. Enough. How about if you are getting robbed.

Sorry to tell you this, but you are a cop 24/7, that's just the way it works. I'm sure if something happened, you would get OT anyway.

i agree that im a cop 24/7. with that in mind, its my duty to make the sound tactical decision to not trade shots with a perp in a store occupied by store clerks and shoppers. i cant act and risk lives on the assumption that even if we give the perp what he wants, we're getting shot anyway. the cost of innocent people getting hurt if i take action in that particular scenario isnt worth the risk in my opinion.

trying to hard to be a hero at the wrong times can either get you killed or an innocent bystander killed. sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

i dont need the OT anyway. maybe a few years ago i wouldnt mind it but i have my own business on the side now. i dont have the time for OT anymore.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by SW4747

Sorry to tell you this, but you are a cop 24/7, that's just the way it works.

Wanna bet? It was a job, not a lifestyle. Nobody said I was a cop 24-7. If you choose that route, that's fine, but I never signed anything to that effect.

When I was on the clock, I worked my butt off and I like to think I did a damn good job. I was respected by my peers and that was important. But when quiting time came, the gun went in the gun locker and I went home. If you want to be on 24-7, that's your choice, not your or my obligation.

[Frank Booth]

As for you guys that don't carry off-duty. I think you are silly not to, but that is just my opinion.

I don't PLAN on having a flat or an accident, but I carry a spare tire, a First Aid kit AND a cellphone.

I'm assuming you guys also wear your bullet resistant vests off-duty too?

And how may times do perps come in and shoot the clerk, just for ****s and giggles. Enough. How about if you are getting robbed.

Not enough to justify the idea that you should make the decision for a room full of people that there are going to be bullets flying because hold-up men SOMETIME shoot victims for no reason. And I don't think it happens all that often. It probably seems like it happens more than it does because many hold-ups don't even make the news. A hold-up where victims are shot "just because" is sure to make the new though. If I were trying to make myself inconspicuous in a bank while there was a hold-up going on, and you were in there off-duty, yelled "police" and started shooting, I'd probably feel the same way you would if you were in there off-duty and I yelled to the hold-up man: "Hey, you guys better surrender because THAT guy's (pointing at you) is a cop!" On the other hand, if you didn't yell "police" before you started shooting, and I had a gun off-duty, I might just shoot YOU by mistake. All in all, you'd better have a really good reason to open fire inside a business during a hold-up when there are other innocent people inside. Keep the heroics to a minimum until they're outside and away from me....

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by SW4747


I for 1 would not want to be the *** hole cop inside a store when it gets robbed and someone gets shot, and I'm standing there with my cock in my hand.

It's more likely you'll be laying in bed with it in your hand dreaming about it.:)

I can't speak for NYC, I've never been there. But my old jurisdiction has about a million people in the area and we used to have 10 to 20 armed robberies a day when I was working.

The majority are one scared doper staking out a stop and rob. They invaribly wait until it's empty or there is only one or two people in it and they are usually kids or old folks. They run in, get 50-60 bucks and are out of there in less than a minute. You can bet if some macho looking guy is in it, they're gonna wait. Look at the reports in your precinct and look at the witnesses and see if I'm right.

The more rare is multiple robbers. These guys come in and take over a place just like we do. Usually they put people on the floor. One guy searches while the other(s) stand guard. If an armed cop is in there, he'll lose his gun. Once we had 5, I mean five armed detectives in a bar after work when two guys came in with shotguns and robbed the place. They did exactly what I said. Everybody was proned out. There was zero chance for any of them to go for a gun. They all lost their guns and badges, but stayed alive. Yeah, they took some ribbing, but the reality was we were all glad they survived. Had any tried to be a hero, they probably all would have been killed. One dead cop isn't worth the price of any bad guy.

These guys plan what they'e going to do just like us. Everybody talks about the times cops did something heroic, but I would bet that more times, they're guns are taken away just like these guys. But people don't want to talk about those instances.

Also, you talked about robbers shooting for giggles. Once shooting starts, usually it's a blood bath. If there are more than one robber and the first shoots, the other will start shooting. What is more likely to happen if you do pull your gun is that you will get other people killed in the process along with yourself. Yeah, once in a great while, they shoot the clerk, but it ain't gonna happen if you're standing there. These guys are cowards and you know it. They only do that stuff when they KNOW they have the upper hand.

It's been posted about the Texas cop who got shot in a resturant. Okay, it sounds like an urban legend, but let's say it's true. There were at least two robbers according to the story. Do you really think they were standing side by side during this time? I seriously doubt it. Victims always describe multiple robbers as standing apart at least 20' or better, usually better. If this guy had pulled a weapon, he MIGHT have gotten one of them, but the other would have blown him and his family away.

When I was a young cop, I bought a nickel plated Colt .38 spl. One of the old guys said, "That's nice, when some guy shoves it up your ***, it'll slide in easier". Back then I had the fantasy of whipping out my piece and saving women and children, getting parade, etc. And I've known a few who keep that fantasy going. The cold truth is that the chances of that are miniscule. My dept. has no policy on off duty carry. It's up to the individual. But they do encourage us to be good witnesses and not get silly.

I honestly don't care one way or the other if you carry off duty or not. It's none of my business, but don't admonish the rest of us with that cop 24-7 crap. That's an attitude, not a reality. Back in 1970, I walked in and applied, took a bunch of tests, passed and was given a job. When I was on the clock, I did my level best to give them their moneys worth. But 24-7? Naw... If being a cop is the most important thing in your life, cool. But it wasn't mine nor was it most of my friends. It's what we did for a living not who we were. If any time you asked my kids to describe me when they were growing up, probably one of the last things they would have said was, "Oh yeah, he was a cop". I liked it like that. I was their dad who happened to be a cop, not a cop that happened to be their dad.

Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of my career. A couple of programs I thought up and got going are still running, one state wide. When I retired, I left a couple of guys on death row and more than a handful doing life w/o parole. But at the end of the day, that doesn't mean anything compared to my granddaughter running up to me when she sees me and giving me a hug and telling me she loves me. You guys wanna be cops 24-7, that's great. But I know a few of my peers who thought that was necessary too and were the macho types. Most are lonely old men now who's kids have little to do with them. They were too busy being cops when they were growing up. I'm glad I wasn't because I have a great relationship with my grown children.

[shooter1201]

Wanna bet? It was a job, not a lifestyle. Nobody said I was a cop 24-7. If you choose that route, that's fine, but I never signed anything to that effect.

My SGT used to think like that, until one day he was shopping...in a DIFFERENT CITY...and came face to face with a guy he'd busted a few years earlier. At the time, this guy SWORE he would 'kill my SGT if he saw him again'. My SGT was UNarmed at the time. No more.....

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by shooter1201
My SGT used to think like that, until one day he was shopping...in a DIFFERENT CITY...and came face to face with a guy he'd busted a few years earlier. At the time, this guy SWORE he would 'kill my SGT if he saw him again'. My SGT was UNarmed at the time. No more.....

Did he kill him? I bet not. I've come across a few who've threatened me in the past. When I was working meth labs, I was taking down about 40-50 a year personally. I was threatened all the time. They were more scared of seeing me in a store than I was them. The only time I was really concerned was when I was investigating other cops who were involved with dope. It turned out they were afraid of me too.

How many times have you heard of somebody walking up to a cop and killing him because he arrested the guy before? Makes for good drama, not much more.

[K9 Police]

RDS,

I didn't want to quote your entire post to say: DITTO!!!!! (In regards to the lengthy post.)

Excellent post, I agree with you 100%.

K9

[Frank Booth]

It's more likely you'll be laying in bed with it in your hand dreaming about it.

Hee hee....

Victims always describe multiple robbers as standing apart at least 20' or better, usually better. If this guy had pulled a weapon, he MIGHT have gotten one of them, but the other would have blown him and his family away.

And that's assuming the customers even KNOW who the back-up man is. I posted a while ago about a cop in Detroit who pulled a gun off-duty in a bank that was being held-up. The "customer" behind him was the back-up man, and he popped the cop in the back of the head right in front of his young son.

[shooter1201]

How many times have you heard of somebody walking up to a cop and killing him because he arrested the guy before? Makes for good drama, not much more.

And how many off-duty cops are DEAD because they weren't armed when they SHOULD have been? IMO, ONE is too many.

To each his own, but when I'm out with my family, I figure I OWE IT TO THEM to be able to PROTECT myself AND them IF NEEDED.

[Bart]

Originally posted by shooter1201
And how many off-duty cops are DEAD because they weren't armed when they SHOULD have been? IMO, ONE is too many.

To each his own, but when I'm out with my family, I figure I OWE IT TO THEM to be able to PROTECT myself AND them IF NEEDED.

this thread went from whether an officer should ticket somebody off duty to whether an officer should carry off duty. i wouldnt tell anybody not to carry. but if you do carry, you have to me smart when it comes to deciding when to use the damn thing.

when we approach an armed suspect, we do it guns drawn. if that suspect decides he would rather take his chances and shoot it out with us, he'll probably lose because we had the drop on him. but now lets turn the tables... if somebody comes up to you at an atm and demands your money at gunpoint, dont try to pull your gun thinking youre john wayne. the robber has the edge and you'll probably take a few shots before you can get that gun out of the holster. the smart thing to do is give him the wallet. from there, you can decide if you want to follow at a safe distance until you can get some help. shooting him in the back probably wouldnt be a good idea unless you can articulate that others were in imminent danger of some sort.

in any event, if that scenario actually happened to me, whether i was armed or disarmed wouldnt make a difference. i wouldve lost my wallet all the same and i probably wouldnt have been able to shoot the fleeing bastard.

[Frank Booth]

And how many off-duty cops are DEAD because they weren't armed when they SHOULD have been? IMO, ONE is too many.

You can't assume that because an unarmed cop is killed off duty that he was killed because he wasn't armed. That's basing your premise on the assumption that he would have been able to disable the bad guy before he or his family were killed while he was busy "saving them to death" if he HAD been armed, and you can't assume that.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by shooter1201
And how many off-duty cops are DEAD because they weren't armed when they SHOULD have been? IMO, ONE is too many.


Then everybody should be armed? Most people that are killed aren't armed. Should it be mandatory that everyone carry guns? Tell me why a cop's life is more important than some of your fellow school teachers. If you feel that way, that's fine. But I resent others telling me I should be armed. I don't care to spend my life paranoid. If others do, I really don't care, but again, don't tell me that I'm a cop 24-7 just because some of you choose to be.

I was just counting up the number of cops I've known that've been shot. In my career span, 6 cops in my dept. were shot on duty. The exact same number were shot off duty. The off duty were not by other people though. They were self inflicted accidental woundngs while playing or cleaning their guns. They were all gun nuts by the way, not amateurs. Who's the most dangerous to who?

[flatbadge]

There are SO many AH drivers. Just stay away when off duty.

[Frank Booth]

Here's one off-duty cop who wouldn't have been shot if he HADN'T been armed.......



Jury holds patrolman responsible in slaying of off-duty officer


By Jack Hagel / Associated Press

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PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- A jury held a white patrolman responsible Friday for civil rights violations in the slaying of a black officer who was shot outside a diner while off duty and out of uniform.

The other white officer involved in the shooting was cleared of civil rights violations by the all-white jury.

The verdict in the federal lawsuit could open the city and the police department to millions of dollars in damages.

The case now moves into a second phase to determine whether negligence in training and hiring at the police department led to the shooting.

The mother of Sgt. Cornel Young Jr., 29, sued for $20 million after he was killed in 2000 by two white patrolmen responding to a report of a disturbance outside a diner.

Young came out of the diner with his gun drawn to help break up the disturbance. The officers -- Michael Solitro and Carlos Saraiva -- said they mistook him for a suspect.

The jury deliberated for less than eight hours before concluding that Solitro violated Young's civil rights, but Saraiva did not.

Young's mother, Leisa Young, cried after the verdict was read. She left the courthouse without comment.

Spokesmen for the police department and the mayor's office had no comment. Lawyers for both sides left the courtroom without comment.

Young was the son of the highest-ranking black officer in the department, a major.

Cliff Montiero, president of the Providence chapter of the NAACP, said he wished the jury had found both officers in violation of Young's rights. But the verdict, he said, relieves the Youngs from the "smear that their son was responsible for his own death."

[Frank Booth]

I bet this off-duty cop WISHES he hadn't been armed....

South Rockwood police chief pleads no contest in Web sex case


By Associated Press

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The South Rockwood police chief, who prosecutors say agreed to pay a teen-ager $20 for a sex act and later tried to mislead 911 operators about shooting the teen's friend, pleaded no contest Monday to a lesser charge of willful neglect of duty.

In exchange for the plea to the misdemeanor, the other charges were dropped. Willful neglect of duty carries a maximum penalty of one year in jail and a $1,000 fine, but Kevin Walters' deal with prosecutors allows him to avoid jail time.

Also as part of the deal, Walters was to resign as police chief immediately. A no contest plea is not an admission of guilt but is treated as such for sentencing purposes.

Walters said after leaving the courtroom that he would have no comment until after his sentencing, which is scheduled for Nov. 5 in Woodhaven's District Court.

"He would like to have none of this to have occurred," said Michael Vincent, Walters' attorney.

Walters, 41, of Flat Rock, originally was charged with misconduct in office, a five-year felony, and using a computer to solicit a crime, a one-year misdemeanor.

Walters, who was off duty, shot and wounded Keith Hall of Romulus during an encounter early July 25 with Hall and 19-year-old Matthew Schieda of Newport. Investigators say Hall was shot after he hit Walters with a baseball bat during a failed robbery attempt.

Both teens are charged with assault with intent to rob while armed and face up to life in prison if convicted. They are scheduled for a preliminary examination Friday before Monroe District Judge John Braunlich.

Walters plans to testify against the pair, Vincent said.

Prosecutors say Walters met Schieda in an Internet chat room, agreed to the payment for a sex act and set up a meeting in Woodhaven. Walters, who did not know Hall was hiding in Schieda's car, had the teen follow him to an elementary school parking lot near the South Rockwood police station in Monroe County, prosecutors say. The case is being handled in Wayne County because police said the original solicitation was made from Walters' home in Flat Rock.

After Hall was shot, Schieda hid, called 911 and reported his friend had been shot. Prosecutors said Walters first called a police officer at home to discuss how to handle the situation before calling 911 about five minutes later.

[Frank Booth]

I'm guessing this off-duty officer's life would be better right now had she not been armed and decided to just walk away....

Detroit officer is suspect in shooting

Husband critically injured in domestic argument, police say

By David G. Grant / The Detroit News

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DETROIT -- A police officer shot and critically wounded her 25-year-old husband early Monday during a domestic argument in their home, investigators said.

Lionel Morehead was shot in the shoulder and neck about 1:30 a.m. in the bedroom of the couple's home in the 16000 block of Winthrop in northwest Detroit. He was listed in critical condition at Sinai-Grace Hospital in Detroit.

"The domestic argument was possibly over another woman," said Cmdr. Craig Schwartz, head of the department's Major Crimes Division. "The officer was off duty and shot her husband with her service revolver."

There had been allegations of domestic abuse in the home.

According to records at Detroit's 36th District Court, Lionel Morehead was charged on New Year's Eve of 2000 with domestic violence for hitting his wife and was released on a $100 bond.

The domestic violence charge was dismissed March 8, 2001, when his wife, the policewoman, failed to show up for court.

The 26-year-old woman, a five-year member of the police department, is assigned to street patrol in the 11th (Davison) Precinct. The officer, whose name has been withheld, pending the issuance of a warrant, was arrested.

She also was suspended without pay pending the outcome of the criminal investigation.

Detectives said the couple has an infant.

[Frank Booth]

More off-duty cops who would have been better off gunless:

Chief suspends 2 Detroit cops

One accused of firing his weapon from van, other had stolen gun

By David G. Grant / The Detroit News

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DETROIT -- Two Detroit Police officers have been suspended without pay in connection with a shooting incident, Police Chief Jerry Oliver said.

Oliver said he suspended one of the officers for allegedly firing his pistol from a moving van and the other officer was suspended for being in possession of a stolen pistol.

Police said the incident happened about 1 a.m. April 19 when two other off-duty police officers contacted the Michigan State Police and reported seeing shots being fired from a van that was traveling on Interstate 75.

State police troopers pulled the van over just seconds after the driver got off I-75 at the Grand River exit. Inside the van were two off-duty Detroit Police officers and four other men.

Investigators said five of the men, including the two officers, appeared to have been drinking. The van's driver and the three other men were released.

"The two off-duty police officers who spotted the van and reported the incident did not know there were Detroit Police officers inside the van," said Detroit Police Deputy Chief Gary Brown.

One officer, Paul Carmona, assigned to the 6th (Plymouth) Precinct, was suspended for allegedly firing his department-issued 9mm pistol out the window.

Investigators said Officer Carmona only had two rounds in his gun, which holds a 16 round magazine.

The other officer, Nathaniel Weekley, assigned to the 2nd (Schaefer) Precinct, was suspended for being in possession of a semiautomatic handgun that had been reported stolen in 1999 from a home in Sterling Heights, Brown said.

Investigators found shell casings in the street near where the shooting was reported and they are being checked to see if they match Carmona's handgun.

Both officers, who are two-year-veterans, face departmental charges of conduct unbecoming police officers and both may also face criminal charges as well.

[Frank Booth]

Even the chief's gun is more trouble that it's worth for him when he doesn't just leave it in his underwear drawer where it belongs:

Detroit Police Chief Oliver resigns


By David Shepardson and Darci McConnell / The Detroit News



Oliver




Oliver quits

Detroit Police Chief Jerry A. Oliver served 18 months before resigning. Overall, how would you grade his job performance?

Excellent
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DETROIT -- Detroit Police Chief Jerry A. Oliver Sr. announced his resignation this afternoon after 18 months on the job.

At a somber news conference in Detroit Police Department headquarters, Oliver said he decided to leave because the controversy surrounding him, which he called "all the misinformation, all the rumors," had hindered his ability to do his job.

"This is a big job. I'm not going to allow this to become a sideshow," said Oliver, who was flanked by Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. "It's not about any other issues. I'm a public servant."

The latest controversy to hit Oliver is that he may face charges for failing to tell officials that he had his .25-caliber pistol in his luggage before taking a flight Oct. 18 from Detroit Metropolitan Airport to Philadelphia.

The incident presented a dilemma for the mayor, when crime numbers continued to fall on Oliver's watch. At the same time, Oliver has rankled many within the department with a hard-line approach to punishing officers who face their own criminal troubles, often for domestic violence.

Kilpatrick, who appointed Oliver after conducting a national search, said he was saddened by the chief's decision to resign.

"I'm very disappointed, very disappointed that the chief is not going to be the chief anymore," the mayor said.

Kilpatrick praised Oliver, the first chief to come from outside the department since 1968, for doing what he called a "miraculous" job. Oliver got rid of an "antiquated command structure (and) led the Detroit Police Department kicking and screaming into the 21st century," he said.

An acting chief will be appointed next week, said Kilpatrick, who declined to say whether he would conduct a national search for a chief.

City Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel said she is "deeply saddened by Chief Oliver's necessary resignation."

"I believe the chief has been the most significant champion for reform in the Detroit Police Department in the last 40 years," Cockrel said.

Still, Cockrel, who on Friday cosponsored a resolution with Councilwoman JoAnn Watson that called for the mayor to investigate Oliver and the gun controversy, said Oliver's integrity had come into question.

"I think he has done the correct thing for the organization," she said.

A Web site -- firejerryo.com -- created by former Officer John Bennett showed a cartoon of Kilpatrick kicking Oliver. Above it is a headline "Moving the Department forward."

The shake-up comes at a critical moment for the department, which is in the early stages of complying with two federal court orders on the department's policies about using of force and questioning of witnesses.

Lt. Ricardo Moore said he looked forward to"a new beginning with a new chief."

"Whoever it will be, hopefully the dept will go in a new direction," Moore said. "I have had a problem in past with the chief. But, hopefully, now with a new chief all of these problems will be resolved."

The mayor said he doesn't expect Oliver's resignation to affect the reform effort, which is being overseen by an outside monitor.

Oliver, however, noted that "there's monumental work to do" to improve the department.

But he said the department is making changes.

"Real reform is under way that you can see in the streets and the stores and the neighborhood," Oliver said.

As for the possible gun charge against Oliver, Duggan said Thursday that investigators still needed to talk to police officers who were with Oliver and with employees of Northwest Airlines before deciding whether to file any charge.

A federal gun check showed that Oliver bought the pistol in Arizona 30 years ago. Oliver said the gun is licensed in Richmond, Va., where he was chief before coming to Detroit in February 2002.

Duggan declined to discuss what charges are possible in the case.

Oliver, who was fined by federal authorities in the matter, has not discussed it with Duggan's office.

[K9 Police]

Originally posted by retdetsgt
I don't care to spend my life paranoid.

Exactly.

It is sad to say, but once anything goes on my person police related my whole attitude changes. I hate it, and so does everyone around me. During my time off, I am just me. Certain places I go I will carry, but thats it. I enjoy my life away from being a cop, even though its only a couple off days at a time.

K9

[Frank Booth]

Thank God THIS off-duty officer had a gun!!

Freddie Vela: Freddie Vela, age eleven, was shot and killed by off-duty Detroit police officer Glenn Price on July 22, 1995.16 Vela was riding his bicycle near a dispute between Price and another man outside a bar. Price shot twice at the man, but missed and hit Vela, who was riding his bicycle nearby. Price was convicted of second-degree murder charges and sentenced to ten to fifteen years in prison.17 The Vela killing led the city's Latino minority to decry mistreatment by officers and lack of attention by the media and civil rights groups. Vela's family reportedly filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the police department.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
A police officer shot and critically wounded her 25-year-old husband early Monday during a domestic argument in their home, investigators said.

"The domestic argument was possibly over another woman," said Cmdr. Craig Schwartz, head of the department's Major Crimes Division. "The officer was off duty and shot her husband with her service revolver."




Wasn't there a thread recently about cops marrying each other? No thanks! If I ain't carrying a gun, I don't want my wife to be! I'd been shot a long time ago.

[retdetsgt]

One night I got a call to a bar to assist an off duty police detective. I got there and found this drunk detective who was waving his gun around. He'd just arrested about 6 of his drinking buddies and demanded I transport them to jail for him. Why didn't I call in sick that night?!? :confused:

The vice pres of our union suddenly retired when he was busted by the state police for pointing his gun at another motorist who had apparently cut him off and flipped him the finger. The cop pointed his off duty weapon at the guy who took off and called OSP.

I can't remember a single call to assist an off duty policeman that wasn't a can of worms of some kind.

[SW4747]

Good thing she had her gun:

We can swap stores about off duty and on duty all we want. My opinion is that off-duty officers, when possible, should carry for their safety.

I HAVE NEEDED my gun off-duty, so I am glad I carry it all the time.

Off-Duty NYPD Cop Shoots Armed Bandit

............
KIERAN CROWLEY
Courtesy of New York Post

An off-duty NYPD cop returning to her Long Island home just after midnight yesterday came face to face with two ski-masked burglars - one of whom pointed a gun at her.

The unidentified 29-year-old officer quickly drew her own off-duty weapon, shooting the gunman in the abdomen, said Nassau Detective Lt. Karl Schoepp.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by SW4747


Off-Duty NYPD Cop Shoots Armed Bandit

............
KIERAN CROWLEY
Courtesy of New York Post

An off-duty NYPD cop returning to her Long Island home just after midnight yesterday came face to face with two ski-masked burglars - one of whom pointed a gun at her.

The unidentified 29-year-old officer quickly drew her own off-duty weapon, shooting the gunman in the abdomen, said Nassau Detective Lt. Karl Schoepp.

She was really fast and the burglar was really dumb and slow, wasn't he? She was fortunate, if he had the drop on her normally she'd be the dead one. She was more lucky than good.

As I keep saying, if you want to carry, go for it. But don't give other people crap because they don't. As I told Sentinel, I've never been to NYC. I'm not saying you don't need one. But in 27 years of law enforcement in a fairly good sized city, I've personally seen off duty guns get cops in 10X more trouble than it's gotten them out of. I chose neither to be paranoid, nor play Wyatt Earp and possibly get other people killed.

As I said in my other post to you. Look at the robbery reports and find some that you could have been a hero in. There won't be many, I suspect.

[retdetsgt]

SW4747,

You left out a few details, didn't you? Here they are:

************************************************** ****************
NY Times November 18, 2003

An off-duty NYPD cop returning to her Long Island home just after midnight yesterday came face to face with two ski-masked burglars - one of whom pointed a gun at her.

The unidentified 29-year-old officer quickly drew her own off- duty weapon, shooting the gunman in the abdomen, said Nassau Detective Lt. Karl Schoepp.

The other man "charged toward her" and they fought for her weapon. That man grabbed her gun and pistol-whipped her, said Schoepp.

The encounter took place outside the officer's Massapequa Park home, cops said, after the men had burglarized her neighbor's apartment. The two men fled in a vehicle driven by a third accomplice.

Soon after she reported the violence, two Nassau cops stopped a car occupied by three men from Freeport. They discovered two guns inside, including the officer's stolen pistol, officials said. One of the men was bleeding.

Jos Rodriguez, 28, was taken to Nassau University Medical Center in serious condition. He and his companions, Gabriel Galan, 47, and Carlos Espinoza, 23, were charged with robbery, burglary, assault, weapons possession and criminal use of a weapon.

The officer was admitted to the same hospital, suffering from head cuts and bruises and a neck injury.
************************************************** **************

Looks to me like she'd have been better off to have turn and ran. She's indeed lucky to be alive.

[Deputy757]

As to the original question, I agree that following and then confronting the jerk in your POV would have been a bad idea. However, requesting assistance from an on duty unit may have proved to be ok. I've done this only twice in 14 years but both times I was convinced that it was necessary.
As to off duty carry, I'm with SW4747. RDS mentions that he's worked a large city which may explain why he's not encountered too many people that he's locked up. I find his assumption that all of them were too afraid of him to do anything even if they did come face to face a bit speculative, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. In my experience, these idiots make some of their most dangerous moves when they are scared. They may have an outstanding warrant for their arrest and erroneously assume that RDS knows it. Though scared of him, they may overcome this fear in order to eliminate what they perceive as a threat to their freedom. Granted, not a scenario that will happen a lot, but it's a possibility. And just like I carry insurance on my home, car, and life to protect me and my family against the possibilities of fire, collisions, and death...I carry "insurance" against this type of threat as well!
Now, in almost all of the scenarios presented by Frank, the officers in question were doing something either illegal or stupid (or both). We're not talking about this type of activity. Obviously, we all agree that guns have no place in the hands of anyone who's been drinking or committing criminal acts (cop or no cop). We're talking about firearms in the hands of professional officers who simply find themselves in a life and death situation not of their own design! Looking back, I don't ever recall SW4747 advocating that officers interject themselves into an armed confrontation unless there was an immediate threat to their lives or another's. I'm talking about believing that, without immediate intervention, a life is going to be taken. He simply said that he wouldn't want to be powerless to do anything should that type of situation arose.
I will agree with RDS that the decision to carry or not to carry is a personal decision and one that shouldn't be ridiculed no matter which side you come down on. I wouldn't, as he indicated, consider someone who does carry off duty paranoid just as I wouldn't label someone who doesn't as careless or naive.

Looks to me like she'd have been better off to have turn and ran. She's indeed lucky to be alive.
Perhaps. Or perhaps by shooting one she discouraged them from doing anything worse. If they both had been able to have their way with her I can imagine the things they might have done. In addition, I've yet to meet any defensive tactics instructor who advocates turning your back on an armed assailant.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Deputy757


Looks to me like she'd have been better off to have turn and ran. She's indeed lucky to be alive.
Perhaps. Or perhaps by shooting one she discouraged them from doing anything worse. If they both had been able to have their way with her I can imagine the things they might have done. In addition, I've yet to meet any defensive tactics instructor who advocates turning your back on an armed assailant.

Are you kidding? They had her down, took away her gun and pistol whipped her! The only reason they didn't kill her was they chose not to! They could have done anything they wanted to her! All she did when she shot one was **** them off! It wasn't even a good shot, it was a gut shot. It would kill him, but real slow, not drop him. If she had ran, she wouldn't have been a threat to them. They were burglarizing a neighbor's house, not her's. C'mon on, Deputy! What good did her gun do her? It got her *** kicked.

Some of you guys are operating under the premise that bad guys are all looking for off duty cops to screw with. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They don't want to mess with you, they're cowards. Screwing with a cop is suicidal one way or the other. They assume if they know you, you know them, they've lost their anonymity and that's their best weapon. You're scared to death that some guy you popped for DUI two years ago is going to jump you and your family at the shopping mall. Good grief!

Shooter came up with one example of a sgt seeing someone he arrested two years prior in another town. He didn't say what happened, obviously the sgt wasn't killed like the guy had threatened to once. So he saw him, big deal. Yeah, I ran into people I arrested. And I doubt it was because of warrants are anything like that that they didn't do anything. If they wanted to kill me or hurt me, why would an outstanding warrant make a difference? Hurting me is a crime anyway, isn't it? If I'm not walking up to them, how am I a threat to them that would scare them into doing something..... They all pretended not to see me. Most of the stuff I see posted comes from movies, not real life.

Sorry to rant, but some of the rationale I read here is straight out of comic books. If you feel safer carrying a gun, great. But be damned careful with it. If I'm in a store and a robbery goes down, I want the bad guys to get the money and get out. The last thing I want is some off duty cop to pull his gun and think he's Bat Masterson and get half the people in the store shot. That gun's much more likely to get you in a mess like it did this woman.

[SW4747]

Maybe shooting that guy saved her from being raped or worse? It scared them off. Had the 3 guys grabbed her and pulled her into her apartment, who knows that they cold have done with her.

You assume pulling her gun got her hurt, but it could have also saved her. I'm sure if you ask her, she would much rather take an *** whooping from them, than get raped by the 3 mutts.


As far as calling the comments here something out of a comic book, I don't' agree. Some criminals are hard core. I know cops who have run into perps off-duty and had confrontations. I also know cops who have run into perps off-duty and had no problems. But if there is going to be a confrontation, I would rather have that gun with me, just in case.

I'm not irresponsible with it. If I am going to a bar, or out to a ball game or something, it stays home. The articles you posted were all of idiot cops doing illegal or very stupid things. The gun did not get them in trouble, they got themselves in trouble.

I prefer to be armed off-duty. Like I said, I needed it once.

[Frank Booth]

Wasn't there a thread recently about cops marrying each other? No thanks!

I knew one girl who shot her husband.....in the head....WHILE he was sleeping! She had recenly found out he was screwing around on her....

The unidentified 29-year-old officer quickly drew her own off- duty weapon, shooting the gunman in the abdomen, said Nassau Detective Lt. Karl Schoepp.

The other man "charged toward her" and they fought for her weapon. That man grabbed her gun and pistol-whipped her, said Schoepp.

Hmmm, I wonder if one of them was her ex-boyfriend.....As far as pistol whipping her....they've been listening to too much rap music. It promotes and obvios disprespect for women.

As to off duty carry, I'm with SW4747. RDS mentions that he's worked a large city which may explain why he's not encountered too many people that he's locked up.

The only time I remember a cop being shot by a guy he had previously encountered was the one where the cop wrote someone a parking or traffic ticket and the wacko went home, got a shotgun, found the cop sitting in his car, and blasted him. And that was an on-duty, armed cop. If some guy is LOOKING for you to kill you while you're off-duty, chances are, he's going to get you. I'd be interested to see some evidence of off-duty chance encounters with former arrestees where the officer needed his gun, especially relative to the number of off-duty incidents where the gun was nothing but trouble.

[shooter1201]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Thank God THIS off-duty officer had a gun!!

Frank, even from YOU, that was uncalled for. You're ASSuming that ALL off-duty cops are cowboys. Personally, I prefer to think that I'm even MORE 'calm, cool and collected' when off-duty and am apt to have LOVED ONES nearby....:rolleyes:

[Frank Booth]

Frank, even from YOU, that was uncalled for. You're ASSuming that ALL off-duty cops are cowboys.

This guy wasn't a cowboy, he just used bad judgement, fueled by alcohol. He came out of the bar, his car alarm was going off, and there was some wino/bum by his car supposedly tampering with the battery to disconnect it to shuf off the alarm (or trying to steal it..whatever) So the cop, for whatever reason, cranked off a round, it travelled down the block and hit the kid, who was riding his bike. As far as not taking guns to bars...Even if they don't normally take their guns to bars, how many cops make unscheduled or unplanned stops for drinks? Given the time of day, and the types of people who hang out at bars, and all the liquid courage flowing, many people would reasonably think that of all the places you go off-duty, a bar is where you'd need your gun the MOST, and using this logic they carry their gun into the bar, where, in most states, it's illegal for even a cop to have a gun above a certain BAC. And given that most problems occur around closing time, it's a recipe for disaster. Was that a sentence run-on? And I'm not talking about ALL cops, I'm talking about cops in general. Just like the "you should carry off-duty because you might need your gun" camp.

[Frank Booth]

Here's another story I like that makes several points. First, it shows that TN V. Garner was a civil case. In this state, you can still shoot a fleeing felon for even the most minor of property crime felonies and not be prosecuted. You'll lose your job and get sued, since it's against every department policy to shoot a fleeing felon for non-heinous crimes, etc...you all know the drill on that one....But you can't be prosecuted under state law. Secondly, it shows more bad choices made by an off-duty cop who would have been better off leaving his gun at home. Incidentally, this guy is still on the job as far as I know.

Laws, rules keep cops from removal

Charges can't be brought if suspected felon is shot
May 17, 2000
BY DAVID ASHENFELTER
and JOE SWICKARD
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS



Sometimes, laws and regulations thwart officials when they try to get rid of a cop for a questionable shooting.


Detroit police executives and prosecutors agreed in 1995, for instance, that a rookie cop was wrong when he shot an unarmed teenager who was tampering with a car. But they couldn't kick him off the force or put him on trial.


"We fired him," Police Chief Benny Napoleon said. "The arbitrator gave him his job back."


The officer, Archie Arp, declined to comment.


On the night of Aug. 23, 1995, Arp was off duty and dropped in to visit his girlfriend at a bar on Joy Road near West Parkway. Arp, 45, had been a cop for a year.


Arp was in the bar a few minutes, police and court records show, when he was asked to check out the parking lot because a kid was seen messing with a car.


Moments later, gunshots were heard and 14-year-old Charles Clay lay dying on the street. Clay was about 90 feet from Arp, and a screwdriver with a 4-inch blade was near the youth's body.


Arp told investigators the youth ran but suddenly turned on him with a shiny object that Arp believed was a weapon. It was the screwdriver.


The autopsy showed that Clay had been shot in the middle of the back. The bullet's path through his body indicated that he may have been running when hit.


Even so, Sgt. Arlie Lovier of the special assignment squad, who was the officer in charge of the homicide investigation, said it was "a good shooting," with no violations of criminal law or department regulations.


The Wayne County Prosecutor's Office wanted to charge Arp, but couldn't. The office determined that a criminal case was impossible because a Michigan Supreme Court ruling said it was legal for anyone -- civilian or police officer -- to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon. Assistant prosecutor Michael King said he regretted that he could not bring state charges, "but I feel bound" by the Supreme Court ruling.


However, prosecutors issued a news release indicating that the shooting could be a "civil violation of the deceased's federal rights to be free of unreasonable arrest."


In a September 1995 letter to the police department, county prosecutors said Arp's story wasn't supported by facts, and his use of deadly force appeared to violate department policy.


The police department held hearings and fired Arp, but the dismissal was overturned on appeal in 1998. Arp was suspended for six months, and is still with the department.


Clay's family sued in Wayne County Circuit Court in 1995. The city settled the case for $1 million a year later.

[Frank Booth]

Here's one that turned out OK...sorta....Like RDS said, this cop is alive more because of luck than anything else. I heard that this cop had an old car. The bad guy pulled up in a similar car, and the cop thought he just wanted to talk cars. Things went downhill from there....

Off-duty officer kills suspected carjacker

Detroit patrolman hurt in exchange of gunfire; second suspect arrested

By David G. Grant / The Detroit News

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DETROIT --- An off-duty Detroit Police officer shot and killed a suspected carjacker early Wednesday morning during an exchange of gunfire in which the officer also was seriously wounded.

The officer, whom police declined to identify, was shot in the back, foot and thigh and he is listed in good condition at Grace/Sinai Hospital in Detroit.

Investigators said the shooting happened about 12:10 a.m., minutes after the officer and a friend had left the B.M.G. bar on Burt Road, got into the officer's car and drove a short distance down the street. In the 8800 block of Burt Road, just north of Joy, the officer stopped his vehicle.

"The officer stopped his car to change a CD when two men in a car drove up alongside them," said Cmdr. Craig Schwartz, head of the Major Crimes Division.

Schwartz said the passenger in the suspect's car jumped out, pointed a gun at the officer, who is assigned to the 10th (Livernois) Precinct, and his friend and told both men to get out and to take their clothes off.

While the officer and his friend were disrobing, the gunman was distracted and the officer pulled out his pistol and fired several shots at the gunmen, Schwartz said.

Both men exchanged gunfire and the officer was hit three times. The gunman, who has not been identified, died in Grace/Sinai Hospital. The officer's friend was not injured.

The gunman's accomplice, a 22-year-old Center Line man who was driving the car, sped away but was arrested later when the car he was driving was spotted by police in the area.

[Frank Booth]

Also...for the guys who bring up instances of robbery or burglary victims being shot "just because" even when they give it up without resisting, how many of those cases are straight up robberies VS. something else....like a dope 'thang? Family grudge? Murder for hire? I'd say at LEAST 50%, probably more.

[Bart]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
You'll lose your job and get sued, since it's against every department policy to shoot a fleeing felon for non-heinous crimes, etc...

up until recently it wasnt against our policy. we couple of guys shoot a fleeing car thief but the department and the state attorney's office couldnt touch the officers because we had no policy against it. they ended up getting awards for the incident. then, a new administration came in and started rewritting all of our use of force policies.

[Frank Booth]

we couple of guys shoot a fleeing car thief but the department and the state attorney's office couldnt touch the officers because we had no policy against it. they ended up getting awards for the incident.

Haa!! Cool...

[shooter1201]

Wayne County is the next county over from me. Go figure... :rolleyes:

As for 'hotdogs', I know my share of those, too. One USED to be a local deputy. He allegedly had a BAD habit of firing 'warning shots' whenever someone 'ran' on him.

ANYway....I didn't intend for my comments to be judgemental toward any officer that chooses NOT to carry off-duty. My apologies to retdetsgt if I came off that way.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by SW4747
Maybe shooting that guy saved her from being raped or worse? It scared them off. Had the 3 guys grabbed her and pulled her into her apartment, who knows that they cold have done with her.

You assume pulling her gun got her hurt, but it could have also saved her. I'm sure if you ask her, she would much rather take an *** whooping from them, than get raped by the 3 mutts.


Seems to me that the fact they didn't kill her says all they were trying to do was get away in the first place. The had her gun, she was now unarmed, the could have done anything they wanted including drag her in the car and take her if they wanted to. It didn't scare them too bad if they took the time to pistol whip her.

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by shooter1201
[B

ANYway....I didn't intend for my comments to be judgemental toward any officer that chooses NOT to carry off-duty. My apologies to retdetsgt if I came off that way. [/B]

Shooter, I'm not making personal attacks on the guys that carry either. I apologize if I come off that way. As my brother used to tell me, I may not always be right, but I've never in doubt! :D

I'm getting the impression that some people here would be a little too quick to whip that thing out. I can tell you from experience ( blush) that there is nothing harder than to put a gun back in an off duty holster once you pull it out and find out that the gun isn't called for here.

I hear people talking about having it if they're confronted by a BG that once arrested. Unless that guy has a weapon, they better leave the gun where it is.... Just because some idiot is yelling and threatening you in front of your family, ( I stilll maintain that's HIGHLY unlikely), it doesn't call for deadly force. And if the guy is that crazy and bold, he probably isn't going to be impressed by a bluff and then things get real, real bad.

[Frank Booth]

But if you draw your gun, you HAVE to draw blood.....It's Bushido, man!!! What kind of Samurai are you if you just put it back in the holster after unleashing it, only to weild it around impotently..

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
But if you draw your gun, you HAVE to draw blood.....It's Bushido, man!!! What kind of Samurai are you if you just put it back in the holster after unleashing it, only to weild it around impotently..

Sometimes I cut my thumb on the hammer......

[Frank Booth]

Sometimes I cut my thumb on the hammer......

Not your palm when you "fan" it?

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Not your palm when you "fan" it?

No, but the first time I shot my Glock two handed I did a bit of dance around the old range..... I still have a scar from that! Sometimes I think I'd be better of with a flintlock!

[kirch]

But if you draw your gun, you HAVE to draw blood.....It's Bushido, man!!! What kind of Samurai are you if you just put it back in the holster after unleashing it, only to weild it around impotently..Frank Booth and Tom Cruise...The Last Two Samurai

[Frank Booth]

No, but the first time I shot my Glock two handed I did a bit of dance around the old range.....

Nah, you would have burned your cheek...but at least you would have had to reload before you could burn it again...

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Nah, you would have burned your cheek...but at least you would have had to reload before you could burn it again...

It wasn't my cheek that hurt. The slide on a Glock comes down pretty low. Shooting hand over hand hurts.... and bleeds a lot. Take my word, don't try it!

[Frank Booth]

No, but the first time I shot my Glock two handed I did a bit of dance around the old range.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nah, you would have burned your cheek...but at least you would have had to reload before you could burn it again...

Oops, I cut and pasted wrong...my cheeks remark was in response to:

I still have a scar from that! Sometimes I think I'd be better of with a flintlock!

[retdetsgt]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Oops, I cut and pasted wrong...my cheeks remark was in response to:

Oh, I was wondering. Even I'm usually not putting the gun up next to my cheek. Thanks for clarify...

[akman75]

I'd say if you're hell bent on nabbing this guy, call the local PD and advise them you're off duty following a reckless driver. Follow him at a distance. Let the local marked units catch up to you and affect a stop. Otherwise, let it go. I see people like this all the time and want to nab them! Like the others have said, eventually they'll get caught! Stay safe!

[dws_steve]

Oh have I been ****ed off by many Adam Henry's out there, but I have not attempted to stop them. I have called the local police or HP to report a suspected DUI, but not some AH that has their head up their AH.

As far as carrying off-duty. I do. I don't look at it as being a cop 24/7. I look at it as having the survival mind-set 24/7. Just because I am off-dut doesn't mean that all my training and experience has to be hung up with my uniform. Just because an officer decides to carry off-duty doesn't mean s/he is going to be foolish and pull it at the drop of a dime. Do you pull it in every situation when on-duty, I think not, if you do you need some serious help. I would rather be a good witness than have to resort to identifying myself and using or threatening deadly force when off-duty, but I would rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it. Like the old saying, "better safe than sorry." Although I am now living in a small community, I came from living in Phoenix, AZ. It by no means is small, I ran into several people off-duty that I had arrested. All of them ignored me or walked away except one. That one AH decided to run him mouth off and make threats. He got smart quick when my couple of friends and I identified ourselves as officers. We were all packing, but not one of us pulled our weapons.

Whatever your choice is, be safe out there.