Unarmed UK Cop tactics vs. Armed suspect(s)

[BrickCop]

What the tactics are unarmed (firearm) officers taught to deal with a suspect who is armed?

For example if you pull over a car and the driver/passenger pulls out a gun. I know you do have armed units available for such incidents but what do you do until that time? Disengage? Flee?

Has this ever happened to you or someone in your department? If so, what happened?

[Urban Jedi]

I have only a very minimal idea of the tactics armed officers use when stopping subjects/dynamic house entries etc.

From the point of view of an unarmed officer, whenever armed officers have deployed in my presence, they have been utterly superb.

In answer to the question about the armed driver/passenger, I dont know what I would do. Instinctively flee, but who knows? In a text book situation, I would get away from the subject, but attempt to maintain a visual, getting into cover, whilst asking for armed assistance on the radio. Under no circumstances am I to jeopordise myself or mopes.

SWAT1, a poster on this forum, is ex London armed police. He would be the ideal bloke to chat to.

[JohnKelly]

Originally posted by BRICKCOP
What the tactics are unarmed (firearm) officers taught to deal with a suspect who is armed?

For example if you pull over a car and the driver/passenger pulls out a gun. I know you do have armed units available for such incidents but what do you do until that time? Disengage? Flee?

Has this ever happened to you or someone in your department? If so, what happened?

A member of Britains Finest, Disengage!! Flee!! - NEVER!!

The Police Constable would simply prop his bicycle up against the wall and say, "Hello, hello, hello, wot's going on here then, I am an Officer of the Law and I would ask you to accompany me to the Station; now come-a-long sir and put that fecken gun away before you shoot someone"

If the Police Constable requires assistance, he is equipped with a unique sounding Police Whistle which is attached to a chain and is kept in the Tunic Breast Pocket. On continuously blowing on this Police Whistle, other Beat Constables will come to the members assistance.

So, there you go - that's how it's done.

Cheers,

[GlassCow]

Originally posted by Urban Jedi
I have only a very minimal idea of the tactics armed officers use when stopping subjects/dynamic house entries etc.

From the point of view of an unarmed officer, whenever armed officers have deployed in my presence, they have been utterly superb.

In answer to the question about the armed driver/passenger, I dont know what I would do. Instinctively flee, but who knows? In a text book situation, I would get away from the subject, but attempt to maintain a visual, getting into cover, whilst asking for armed assistance on the radio. Under no circumstances am I to jeopordise myself or mopes.

SWAT1, a poster on this forum, is ex London armed police. He would be the ideal bloke to chat to.

First let me tell Urban Jedi that I can't even imagine being an unarmed officer. I don't know if I am in complete awe of you guys (to have the cahones to be a cop and not allowed to carry a firearm), or scared of ya'll (to even consider being a cop and not be allowed to carry a firearm). I chalk it up to differences in our Societies. I'm sure ya'll have a lot of the same problems we do, and just because the bad guy ain't packing, doesn't mean he/she can't hurt you in many other ways.

What is the general feeling among unarmed officers about this? Do you even want to carry a firearm? What weapons are you allowed to carry (baton, pepperspray, knife)?

And what exactly is the job description of armed officers? Do they patrol, or are the just on call in the event they're needed (kinda like our SWAT guys)?

A lot of questions, I know, but I've not had any previous contact with officers from England.

[Sgt Lobster]

GlassCow,

I'm a member of a large provincial force situated in the North West of England. We have 24 hour armed backup in the form of Armed Response Vehicles or ARVs.

Our ARVs patrol in the same manner as any other unit, but of course have the added responsibility of providing an armed response either singly or with other ARVs working in the county.

As far as I am aware this setup applies to all provincial forces in England & Wales. Urban Jedi works for the Metropolitan Police which covers Greater London and will be better placed to comment on the situation in London. I am not sure of the setup in Scotland and the Police Service of Northern Ireland/PSNI formerly the RUC has been armed since it's inception in 1921.

I am a sergeant in charge of a team of 8 constables none of us carries a firearm, nor for that matter do we have access to them.
I have only received very basic training in the safe handling of firearms and firearms tactics. Officers have been shot at in the town I work. In 1971 Superintendent Richardson was shot to death following an armed robbery on a jewellers. To date he is the highest ranking British police officer to be killed in th exection of his duty. Shootings are extremely rare but not unheard of, and we did have somebody murdered in the town with a pistol about 3 years ago.

Not having a firearm is not a worry to me nor I believe for most of my colleagues. In our force we get a good level of personal protective equipment: we have personal issue overt body armour; a choice of batons ASP, PR24 XTS or MX21; rigid handcuffs; slash resistant gloves and CS incapacitant. There is also covert armour available for plain clothes duties. Normally we have a dog unit on patrol and support units that normally patrol in riot vans. The support unit are good for building entry, public disorder, searches etc.

To me the big issue is not the general arming of the police in mainland Britain, but having sufficient bobbies on patrol to provide safe staffing levels and keeps calls for service within manageable proportions.





Lobster.

[9-11]

What a superb philosophy! Send unarmed cops onto the streets then, if they are confronted by armed suspects, have them run away. Brilliant. I guess it must be reassuring to know that in 5-10 mins when the armed officers teams arrive. at least there is a slight chance they can stem the flow of blood from your sucking chest wound.

I find this policy disgraceful and think the UK/NZ officers should band together and demand that their union/association sue the dept under occupational health and safety Acts. It has been proved that officers in these countries DO face, and are murdered, by armed suspects. Why then are the police not equipped to defend themselves and others from these threats? It is a breach of industrial law. Sue em.

[BrickCop]

Excuse the wording of my first post- I obviously did not proofread it.:o

I remember reading that there was a poll conducted among UK officers,(don't know exactly where). I think the results were 2 to 1 that they did NOT want to carry firearms. If that was true I find it shocking, then again I'm applying America's gun/crime picture to the question. I suppose the relative scarcity of guns in the UK accounted for that vote or am I wrong?

I can appreciate the array of equipment you guys are offered for protection but no firarm? Like the saying goes "You can't karate chop a bullet". Maybe that should be changed to "Never bring a baton to a gunfight".

[Sgt Lobster]

BRICKCOP,

It depends on the area you work, but nationwide I believe the majority of officers would prefer to remain unarmed.What most of us want however is more armed support when needed.


Lobster.

[GlassCow]

Originally posted by Sgt Lobster

To me the big issue is not the general arming of the police in mainland Britain, but having sufficient bobbies on patrol to provide safe staffing levels and keeps calls for service within manageable proportions.


I don't think there is an LEO anywhere that does not agree with the 2nd part...as to the 1st part, like I said before, "differences in societies." But then you can remember the last murder you had from 3 years ago...We had a guy robbed and shot in the chest last night...It was just a blurb on the news :(

[Sgt Lobster]

GlassCow,

Unfortunately murders are far from uncommon in the area I work we had one last month. However as far as I can re-call we have only had one person shot to death in the last 20 years.

The vast majority of homicide victims die as a result of bladed weapons or blunt trauma either with or without a weapon.

That said armed crime is on the increase mainly involving replica weapons, and some local criminals do have access to illegal firearms.

Personally I would have no real problem if the Government decided on a general arming of the police service. However I doubt this is something they will rush into because the cost would run into millions. Over the last 20 years or so the number of armed officers in mainland Britain has actually reduced, the big difference is that the remaining officers are much better trained and equipped and many actually patrol with firearms on a permanent basis.

You asked a question about what would happen if the driver/passenger of a car pulled a gun. Well if they shot me not a lot. Hopefully I would be able to disengage and take cover whilst calling for backup. If the offenders then moved off I would follow and give commentary. The ARV would respond as would other resources such as dog units, traffic/response vehicles and the helicopter. At this stage I would imagine we would have as many tactical options as most police forces worldwide. But you are completely right I would not be able to effectively respond to an attack from a firearm. As an aside many armed offenders are arrested in the UK by unarmed officers. If truth be known you never really know how you are going to react until you face the situation yourself.






Lobster.

[Leigh Harrington]

When I joined the Met (London) in 1985 I was issue a wooden baton about 14" long to carry in a pocket in my trousers, the girls didnt get these and were only armed with a handbag/pocketbook. Later they got a small detectives truncheon to it in their bag and now they get the same as us, an ASP and a cannister of CS.
I have been in the situation where we came across an armed robbery but could do nothing as were unarmed, the most practical thing I could do was runaway behind my partner as I had bodyarmour my Mum had bought me and if he fired his shotgun I could take some of it from my partner. Not an ideal situation I can tell you. However our only consolation was he didnt fire at us as he didnt need to, they were later caught after a gun battle with armed officers.
The Commissioner came to our station to talk about arming officers and raised the point that;
Anyone armed would have to be able to shoot to a set standard, as this was not part of our contract when we joined what would he do with anyone who coudnt hit the proverbial barn door? Which is a fair point.
As for being armed now, I wouldnt want it if I had to work anywhere I might come into contact with anyone black because no matter how righteous the shoot they would be clamouring for you to be charged with murder and I wouldnt need the strees of that. Recently in london a black man held a gun to the throat of another blackman in the street.Armed police were called, he refused to put the gun down and so he was shot to protect the other man. Turned out it was a cigarette lighter which looked like a gun to both the officer and the man being held thought it was real. He was cleared after a lengthy enquiry but the usual suspects still clamoured for him to be done for murder and political appeasement being what it is I wouldnt rely on anyone backing me up.Nothing to do with racism before anyone starts just the world we live in.

[BrickCop]

It's interesting in the US and UK the color of the bad guy gets more consideration than his violent criminal actions.:rolleyes:

All US cops have to qualify (at least) once a year at the range so for the most part it's something we've done regularly since the academy. Although some UK officers may be concerend about shooting to a set standard they should realize it's not that difficult with some training. I know when we went from carrying revolvers to semi- autos (Glock)it was a 100% success rate. A beginner can get the hang of it rather quicky under instruction.


Why don't they offer service firearms to all UK officers? The folks who can't qualify at the range can either choose to remain unarmed or put in an assignment less inclined to run into armed criminals, like a desk job.

I remain interested in stories about what tactics unarmed UK officers used when faced with deadly force whether by gun, edged weapon, etc;

Any more out there UK guys?

[Urban Jedi]

All our training in relation to edged weapons/firearms relate to creating distance and calling for backup.

We used to have bizarre anti-knife defence tactics taught in our OST classes, but not any more.

I have been threatened with a knife twice, and syringes several times. Only on one occassion did I have the fortitude to use my baton, the other times was basically a grapple and restrain tactic.

I am sure that if we were eventually armed, which I think is inevitable, we would obvioulsy deal with pedestrian and vehicular stops entirely differently. On innumerable occassions, I have stopped cars with 3 plus occupants. It is impossible to control those occupants without adequate backup (not always forthcoming) or using verbal commands without some underlying tactical option on my side.

I am very proud of my communication skills, and pride myself in a) ability to diffuse potentially violent situations and b) deal with situations without upping the tempo, and have never instigated any violence either wittingly or unwittingly. I would however, like the OPTION of having a sidearm. Just the option. Things are getting fairly hairy out there, and even though I have only 8 years in, I have noticed a marked increase in those willing to argue, assault, fight and attack the police, and an increase in those with a propensity to violence in general.

[Sgt Lobster]

We used to get taught something called 'pat & wrap' at OST which we practiced doing with rubber daggers. They seem to have given up on that this year. Great emphasis is place on edged weapon awareness, they tell you to wear your vest and maintain your re-actionary gap, but above all an attack with a knife is literally a fight for your life and any option is in play.

The last nugget who threatened us with a knife at a domestic got a good spraying with CS. He managed to make it to his kitchen where he washed his face with copious amounts of cold water - a very bad idea, and very painful for the suspect !! I managed to take him to the ground, but a baton strike was needed for him to produce his hands for cuffing. Edged weapons, more than firearms are our biggest threat, at least in my part of this green and pleasant land.




Lobster.

[Leigh Harrington]

We are being a bit remiss here in not mentioning that in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK, officers are all armed there. This is due to the number of officers murdered by terrorists and the amount of violence they face dealing with sectarian troubles.

[deCadena]

always have a baton by your waist. it's a life saver. also approaching a vehicle should be made with extreme caution. i have seen it a lot of times from a lot of officers approaching pretty dangerously if ever the person does pull out a gun.

[6233108]

Leigh, If you know, how many Irish Catholic officers are there deployed in Northern Ireland?

[Wonga]

Hi 6233108 ,

I don't know the exact figures but a rough estimate would be about 10% of the PSNI are currently Catholic. This is going to change over the next couple of years due to the introduction of a 50/50 recruiting quota.i.e. 50% Catholic and 50% non-Catholic.Effectively positive discrimination / affirmative action , whatever you want to call it.

At present the demographics of Northern Ireland are that about 45% of the population are Catholic and 55% are Protestant.Rough figures only , but the % of other religions are very very small.

Have a look at the PSNI 's site , there are loads of links explaining Police Reform in NI and the whole Peace Process,

http://www.psni.police.uk

Wonga

[kenny_mac]

Why is religous belief recorded ? It doesent make any difference to the way you police.............without fear or predjudice.........
I would hate to think that selection of candidates may be influenced by factors which ,under european law,shold NOT influence whether someone gets a job,especially as a police officer! But this is derailing the original thread,Unarmed tactics,which as i see it is a bit of a misnomer,if the other guy has a gun and you dont your in the doggy doo,I cant outrun a bullet and if i hide the bad guy can just walk up to my hiding place and shoot me,that would just ruin my day.........the best tactic is to not let him see you.:p

[hooahmedic]

For all you brother and sister officers across the pond - I give you a big round of applause. You got some real gumption to police as you do.

I guess it dosen't have to be said but here in the States, if you got a knife, shank, or syringe - you will be looking at the business end
of my .45 or having it screwed in your ear!:eek:

STAY VIGILANT!!!!

[Sgt Lobster]

Our ARV performed 2 armed stops on suspect vehicles today, the weapons in both cases proved to be BB guns. Both these stops were as a result of a telephone call from the public complaining of firearms being brandished from vehicles. The level of stupidity displayed by the great British public knows no bounds !!

Out of interest this week's Police Review reports the 3rd use of the M26 taser by one of the 5 trialing forces.




Lobster. :)

[Sleuth]

2 notes to those who rely on OC spray. I am an OC instructor, and as such, had to be sprayed.

1. Always have a plan B! They had to spray me 3 times to get any effect. Had I been "goal oriented", I could have beat the stuffings out of the officer who sprayed me.

2. A study was done several years ago (by the Seattle Police?) that found that the more times someone has been sprayed, the less effective it is. They were encountering more resistance at bar fights from those who had tasted the spray before. (This may have been brand specific.)

In the Middle East they say "Trust your brother, but keep your hand on your wallet." Here we say "Try your OC, but have a plan B."

I was also a firearms instructor for 25 years. Of the 5,000 students who came through our academy, only one (1) failed to qualify and lost her job. With good instruction, learning to shoot is easy. It's harder to learn to drive!

[Sgt Lobster]

Sleuth,

The majority of forces in the UK use CS spray as an incapcitant. Some are trialing PAVA which I understand is a synthetic 'pepper spray', I'm not aware of any forces that actually use OC here.

To be honest at least where I work very few people get sprayed, but it does seem to be pretty effective on most subjects. Mindset, drink and/or drugs or a tolerance to the spray have however all to be borne in mind when you use incapacitant, as does the direction of the wind lol !!



Lobster.

[tacklebry]

In 2001 - 2002 gun crime in the UK went up by 35%.
In the same year the number of authorised firearms offices fell by 809.
As an operational Traffic officer who covers the M25, A1(M) and M1 just north of London, it does concern me that we do not carry a sidearm. I am Ex-military so carrying a firearm would not be a really big thing for me. The problem in the UK is that the social make-up if the country is changing faster than legislation can be implemented. We have a very real and increasing problem with illegal immigrants from all over the world coming here. Just the other day we picked up a few Afghans in the back of an Artic'. No papers etc. For all we know they could be Taliban terrorists sent in as sleepers!
So what do we do..give them shelter and money. The people who are now at the forefront of the serious crime which is mainly wound up with drugs, are mainly from overseas countries where life is cheap and firearms are common place. As a result the fact that they are carrying and using them in this country is and should be no suprise to anyone. But being the typical British, we stick our heads in the sand, pretend it is happening to someone else and it will just go away. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE GUN POWDER! Over the next few years more and more police officers are going to be put in the situation of facing a firearm. WOOPEE DO the government say that carrying a firearm will carry a minimum 5 year sentence. So if you are stopped by a cop and have one, why not use it and kill the cop. You may get away with it. If you do get caught you'll be out of prison in about 8 years anyway. Worth the risk? Some criminals will think so.
I carry a Baton, and CS spray and am equipped with damn good personal issue body armour. If the Force is saying that there is a threat to my life from firearms and are spending hunreds of thousands on protective equipment, where is my equipment to counter the threat. Surely they cannot expect an armed unit to be my counter because they are 9 times out of 10, at HQ some 30 minutes away!
All British Police Officers should be polled on this subject and those who wish to carry a side arm should be given the right to do so. Those who do not can carry on doing the same job.
This needs to be sortted before Britsh Bobbies start be killed in a job that doesn't pay very well anyway. :mad:

[C/O Waterboy]

Sgt Lobster,

You mentioned the M26 was used for the 3rd time. Do many officers in the UK have access to TASERs??
My department has started using them and we are tickled-pink about the non-lethal method of resolving an issue.
Personally, if I couldn't carry a firearm, the TASER would be the next-best thing. At least with the TASER, if you did come upon an armed suspect, it is possible to disarm him.

[Sgt Lobster]

C/O Waterboy,

The M26 Taser is currently on trial in 5 of the 43 geographic forces that police England & Wales. The forces trialing this less than lethal option are: Northamptonshire; Thames Valley: Lincolnshire; North Wales and the Metropolitan Police. My understanding they are only being used by firearms units, and therefore will only be available to a small number of officers. They are not being trialed in my Police Area, the only less lethal we have is the plastic baton round.



Lobster. :)

[Sleuth]

What are you launching the plastic baton round from? (I can just see a 1st quality Boss or Holland and Holland side by side in the hands of the London police, used only for firing plastic rounds, and painted red. Oh, the Horror!)

[Sgt Lobster]

I think all UK forces have now moved onto a H&K baton gun.


Lobster.

[Wonga]

I got this off the police federation's site from a press relaese in May this year.Makes for some frightening reading.FWIW I thik it's only a matter of time before mainland officers are routinely armed.I only hope it's not too late ......

www.polfed.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly half of police officers questioned in a recent poll - the equivalent of 57,000 officers - believe their lives have been placed in serious danger by a member of the public at least once in the last two years.

But despite being threatened with knives, guns and other weapons, 78 per cent still do not wish to be routinely armed although nearly 47 per cent favour the mandatory wearing of body armour for all operational duties and 80 per cent believe there should be more officers trained and issued with firearms.

The figures are today revealed in a Police Federation officer safety and arming survey which questioned a 20 per cent representative sample of police officers from the rank of constable to chief inspector throughout England and Wales.

The integrity of the survey was validated by ERS Market Research which canvassed the views of 26, 476 officers. 12, 114 officers or 45.8 per cent of those questioned replied.

Gun crime and violence rising

The questionnaire was set against a backdrop of rising violence and gun crime and aimed to establish individual views and experiences about officer safety and arming as well as forces' effectiveness in providing officers with the right equipment, training and support.

Jan Berry, Chairman of the Police Federation, said: "Gun crime has risen dramatically in the past few years. In 2001-2002 it spiralled by 35 per cent on the previous year. In 2000-2001 the total number of shots fired in criminal incidents rose 21 per cent on 1999-2000.~

"Violence is increasing too and it is police officers on the ground who are called in to deal with these incidents, often at great personal risk of death or serious injury as the murders of two officers so far this year clearly demonstrates.

"Against this worrying trend we felt the time was right to take another look at the experiences of officers to establish how safe or otherwise they feel, both on the streets and with the protection and support they are given by their forces."

Some key findings show:


43 per cent felt that, in the last two years, their life was in serious danger as a result of a threat by a member of the public on at least one occasion, whilst on duty
30 per cent have been threatened with a knife at least once in the last two years
Nearly 40 per cent (39.7) have been threatened with another weapon at least once in the past two years
7.4 per cent have been threatened with a gun at least once in the last two years
40 per cent have been injured at least once in two years as a result of an assault by a member of the public, including whilst making an arrest

Eight out of ten do not wish to routinely carry guns but want more officers trained and issued with firearms

Despite the rising violence being encountered, the overwhelming majority (78 per cent) of officers still do not wish to routinely carry arms.

Commenting on this, Chairman Jan Berry said: "Once again this result proves that, in spite of the huge risks and dangers police officers face, they acknowledge the vital importance of policing by consent, in partnership with the communities they serve. They recognise that openly carrying guns would fundamentally change their relationship with the public.

"Unfortunately when firearms officers are called to an incident and, on the rare occasion, discharge a weapon, they are often vilified and have their split second decisions pored over for weeks, months and even years by those with the expert benefit of hindsight."

Police use restraint in firearms incidents but have fewer colleagues

Figures over nearly a four year period, from January 1998 to November 2001, show that out of a total of 44,871 times when police officers were issued with firearms, including ARV responses, there were 11 fatal shootings. This means that a fatal shot is discharged in only one of 4,079 firearms operations in England and Wales.

"By anyone's standards, the small number of weapons fired in relation to the total number of armed deployments paints a positive picture of the professionalism and restraint shown by officers policing an increasingly violent society," said Mrs Berry.

While most police officers said they did not wish to routinely carry guns, 80 per cent wanted to see more of their colleagues trained and issued with firearms - a figure which does not surprise Mrs Berry.

"Over a five year period to 2002, the number of firearms officers has reduced by 809 in England and Wales when gun crime and violence has soared. This situation is totally unacceptable and must be reversed now. Tackling the blame culture and the inordinately lengthy investigations which accompany a weapons discharge would be a good starting point. These inquiries are hugely stressful for the officers and their families and put their careers on hold for months on end, even when they have done nothing wrong," she said.

Federation drive raises safety training and equipment standards

Following the last survey in 1995 when the Police Federation uncovered a scandalous lack of personal protective equipment for its members, this one has revealed some marked improvements in safety training and protective equipment issue, largely due to Federation campaigning.

[trooperspud]

Sorry Wonga, but I disagree that it's "a matter of time". Why? As long as the vast majority of your own officers (78%) state that they do not want to be armed they won't be. Why would the Home Office spend millions on equipment and training when most of your guys don't even want to carry a firearm?

Another reason is the extremely low number of incidents where officers actually fired weapons. "A fatal shot is discharged in only one of 4,079 firearms operations in England and Wales". This means, despite thousands of officers reporting that they felt their lives were in "serious danger" within the past 2 yrs, the reality is, they hardly ever had to resort to firearms to resolve a situation. I guess it is what you are used to. If I reported that I felt my life was in "serious danger" every time I took a gun off a suspect, I'd be submitting that report one a week. It seems in the UK officers rarely come up against a firearm. In my US city of 120,000, officers shot and killed an armed suspect yesterday, another one two weeks ago, and another one the week before that.

The report further states that 70% of officers are satisfied with the equipment issued, and nearly 75% are satisfied with training. Therefore they must be receiving appropriate training for the incidents they are facing. This response is hardly going to motivate your politicians or bosses to spend millions of pounds on unwanted gear. If the desire of some English cops is to carry firearms generally, start talking to your buddies as they appear to be the single biggest hurdle. I doubt it will ever happen.

[Sgt Lobster]

This is a difficult subject: what is being discussed is not the police in mainland UK having firearms; but the general routine arming of every patrolling officer. Officers policing Northern Ireland have always been armed, due to the security situation there.

At any time of the day and night hundreds of officers routinely patrol with firearms in Great Britain; at airports, Armed Response Vehicles and numerous other officers especially in London.

I work everyday with officers armed with a wide variety of firearms: pistols, carbines, rifles, shotguns and baton guns.

That said I'm not armed and neither are any of the 8 constables I work with. We do have personal issue body armour, batons, rigid handcuffs and CS incapacitant but no firearms. What is an absolute fact, is that the vast majority of officers working on the mainland do not have firearms nor any access personally to such weapons.

If I worked in London or one of our other major conurbations, then my desire to be routinely armed would no doubt be greater.




Lobster.

[Sleuth]

I have a question for Sgt. Lobster, or any other UK officer: Of all those armed confrontations, what is the arrest rate? That is, while only 11 times were shots fired, does anyone know how many times armed suspects got away, because the unarmed officer was (rightly) unwilling to arrest the suspect? Perhaps a better measure is, of the times officers have been placed in fear of their lives, how many times were the outlaws (again, rightly) allowed to escape because the officer was not equipped to arrest an armed subject?

The underlying question becomes, how many UK residents were robbed, injured, or killed by armed subjects who had previously escaped custody by being better armed than the police?

Just trying to put a different view on the effects of unarmed police. By no means do I think unarmed (or baton/spray armed) officers should have to contend with knife/blunt object/gun armed suspects.

[Sgt Lobster]

Sleuth,

Without doing some research I have no idea where the 11 shots were fired. I would however strongly suspect that most would be in London or one of our other major cities.
The force I am a member of has been in existence in various forms since 1839, and we haven't shot anybody.

Offenders have escaped from the police by firing at us but I cannot say if the outcome would have been any different if we could have returned fire. The UK is about the size of Oregon, with according to the 2001 census some 58,789,194 packed into these green and pleasant islands. London is the largest city in Europe, and is bigger I believe than New York City. So it is not surprising but still very sad that we do have a problem with crime including firearms related offences.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/3178184.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/3177098.stm





Lobster.

[Sleuth]

I just finished reading a book by Economist John Lott, "The Bias Against Guns." He makes the point that there are benefits and costs associated with guns. In the UK, one of the costs could be deaths and injuries to civillians, by those armed with guns and knoves, who had evaded arrest by the police by being armed. Not to mention the robberies and other crimes commited by these criminals

So the cost to the general population may be much greater than the injuries and deaths of police officers. This may be fertile ground for those officers who wish to be armed, or at least see more armed officers on the street.

[kenny_mac]

In July of this year a 32 yr vetran of our force was shot within the uniform reception area of a police station in Glasgow,thankfully he survived but on that night i trawled our crime logging system to see how many firearms calls there had been since 1/1/03..............the machine maxed out on its search at 750...........now i know there werent 750+ arrests,and having been to many incidents as a k9 handler i know the management had a "suck it and see" attitude which meant many offenders scarpered eaven before initial containment was placed.........its just a way to massage the figures,avoid having to deal with serius management issues and basically stick their heads in the sand.

As regards the poll...........figures dont lie but liars can figure.:rolleyes:

[Cockney Corner]

Well, according to the latest "Police Review", ACPO (the Association of Chief Police Officers) has accepted in principle that all officers should have access to Tasers, so they'll be carried in police vehicles. When that will actually happen is anyone's guess. It's taken forever for us to have approval for caps to be stuck on the end of our batons for improved retention and I don't imagine anyone outside the Police will actually notice that particular change.

[kenny_mac]

I wholeheartedly agree that "non-lethal" options should be available to ALL frontline cops in the uk,up to and including baton or bean bag rounds.It would make initial contact and containment so much easier.

[trooperspud]

What stuns me is the reluctance of street cops to be armed with guns. Why? If you need it, the weapon is there, if not, it's another tool in your toolbox. You all have access to less lethal tools now with the baton and oc spray. The problem with issuing beanbag rounds etc is how to deploy them. It seems the average Englishman finds the idea of a cop carrying any sort of gun as unacceptable. All they would see,in the case of beanbag rounds, is a bobbie with a shotgun. As public opinion, and not officer safety concerns, seems paramount in the UK, this places you back at square one.

Tasers, baton rounds and all the other good stuff are not going to help you against a single suspect armed with a gun. Your Home Office needs to concern themselves with arming frontline cops for the worst case scenario, not relying on specialist groups who are 5 miles away. We learned our lessons at North Hollywood, Columbine and a host of other cities during school/workplace/armed robbery calls. Patrol cops cannot sit and wait for SWAT/SRT/SO19 etc, while people are being murdered. That is NOT "protecting and serving". It is a matter of time before this becomes an issue in England.

[NSWCop]

I have been reading with interest the previous posts. What comes across to me is that, despite the horror of my US bretheren, the UK officers seem to be fairly happy with their lot, firearmwise.
Personally, I could not, and have never, worked the streets without my firearm.
That doesn't mean to say that I routinely use it either. Mainly to put the odd kangaroo or other animal out of it's misery after a prang.
The point is, it comes down to training, culture and experience. If you have been trained from your academy days to carry a firearm, and it is expected in your society, you can not conceive of any other way to do business.
Conversely, it would appear that British society as a whole is not ready to accept that they need to arm all of their Police, this attitude being reflected within its own ranks.
In the case of New South Wales (Australia) where I work, the police were by and large unarmed until the 1930's when there was a PUBLIC outcry over the shooting deaths of unarmed police.
Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth..
:)

[ron9572]

I agree with NSWCop, it just depends on the culture of the place they are working. I was in the UK last year and spoke to a few cops who thought the other way round, they felt that having firearms would lead to more problems than they would solve.

still which ever way you look at it, I think they are exceedingly brave for doing their job without firearms (I personally wouldnt dream of hitting the streets without one)

[Sgt Lobster]

I have over 20 years frontline duty, and at no time have I personally had access to firearms. Believe it or not, the lack of a gun does not have any detrimental effect on the way we patrol. There is no great clamour from myself, or any of my 9 constables to be armed, at least at present.



Lobster.

[Sleuth]

While there are vast cultural differences between our countries, one fact remains in all bureaucracies. Nothing will be done until some is hurt or killed. Police managers are rarely pro-active in officer safety issues. I carried a gun every day for 27 years, and never fired a shot. I think it is only a matter of time until enough officers are killed in the UK, and the number armed officers on the streets goes up.

[Sgt Lobster]

I used to shoot regularly at our DHQ before the Government effectively outlawed handgun possession; and I personally wouldn't object too much if there was general arming of the police service.

However the general arming of the British police, would require a massive investment by central government which at this time I don't think they are prepared to make.




Lobster.

[ron9572]

Just out of interest, though it is only distantly related to the topic of carrying firearms on duty, but it does come under the subject of officer safety, I would like to hear any comments from officers on the practice of one man patrols.

Over here in Western Australia, the only people who do one man patrols are traffic officers on day shift (don't ask me why, everyone else always works two up)

Obviously there are safety advantages in having a two officer patrol but there is also the advantange when going to court, at least you have an officer to provide corroborating evidence (We dont have the luxury of car mounted video cameras).

I would be interested in listening to views from other officers on this subject

[Sgt Lobster]

Ron,

In our force we have a single crewing policy, unless an ongoing risk assessment dictates otherwise. What does this mean in practice ? It means if you are a uniformed section/general duties/response officer you will be walking/driving on your own, likewise most traffic officers. Pretty much everybody else seems to have somebody to hold their hand e.g. CID, support unit, armed response, mounted etc.

The rational behind single crewing is greater visibility, and the ability to better meet demand. Many officers especially on nights are not too keen on being on their own for obvious reasons.

Most of our cars don't have video, so lack of corroboration can be a problem especially with traffic cases. Strangly some officers like working on their own, so there is no pleasing everybody !





Lobster.

[Sleuth]

As an Investigator, I always worked alone until it was time for a warrent arrest or a raid. I kind of liked it that way.

Some years ago there was a study in Law & Order Magazine about the safety of one officer/two officer cars. Oddly, the solo patrols had fewer officer injuries and suspect injuries! It was thought solo officers kept more alert, were less reluctant to call for backup (which would be more than 1 more officer), and were more willing to back away from an ugly situation. I dont know if the same thing would hold true today.

Most of the places I worked, backup was 1 hour or more away, from a different agency (can you say remote?). We learned to adapt, improvise, and overcome.

[Sgt Lobster]

Sleuth,

One hour for backup definately sounds remote to me ! One of the most frustrating experiences is finding an officer who has made an assistance call from a dark country lane in the middle of nowhere. Not too clever the other way round either !!

In our more rural areas it can easily take backup 15 - 20 minutes to reach you assuming they can find you. One of the plus points in working a large town is prompt backup.



Lobster.

[Sleuth]

Actually, 1 hour was not bad. When my wife started in Law Enforcement (late 70's), she was with a state police agency in a western state. After being told she 'was taking a man's job", they assigned her to permenent midnights. At 1AM, the Sheriff's Office shut down, and her only back up was to radio the captiol city, and they would call one of the officers at her post to get up, get dressed, and back her up! Of course, she never did.

She had a drunk driver who failed to stop once. She followed the drunk through 3 counties before the (female) stopped and said: "I just wanted to see how far you'd follow me!" Payback hurt: The car was towed to the far end of the 3rd county, the prisoner went back to the 1st county. She bailed out, and then wanted to know how to recover her car - 105 miles away (and no taxi service!)!

BTW, the remote area is another reason we all carried handguns, and either a shotgun or a Steyr AUG rifle. Some carried both!

[Marky-Mark]

An HOUR for back-up -OUCH:eek: The most I ever waited was about 4 minutes, usually it rained cops in 1 min. or less., guess we were spoiled. I friend of mine working on the northernmost villages of Alaska told me that "back up" had to arrive via a Cessna, usually the NEXT DAY...needless to say, the constable had to earn the respect of the villagers from the start. He said most of the community knew he was alone, and bystanders were thankfully eager to asssist him.

As for the statistic on 1 or 2 officer car deaths, one factor to consider is that the type of community that mandates 2 per car, is more likely in the first place to be a more dangerous environ for police.

[Sleuth]

Let us also look at the "fun" side of back up in these remote areas! One night I was 'trying to make the golden hour' to back up an officer. I saw something in the road, and slowed to around 60MPH, when I saw it was a brown cow on the yellow line. No Problem, I just steered (pun intended) around him - and almost hit the back end of the black cow also in the road!

After we got things under control, I had to check my vehicle for hair & hide! It all came out OK in the end!!

{Let's not talk about how fast I was going before I slowed down!!!!!}

[ron9572]

Many thanks for the interesting replies on the subject of one man patrols, I suppose it just depends on how you have been trained and what you are used to. I was just interested since,particularly in central Perth itself, managment have attempted to introduce one man foot beats. However, our union is against this in a big way ie last time they tried there was industrial action.

Now here is another related topic, how do you guys feel about being made to work with security personel ie Transit Guards, city/borough security personnel?

This is another topic that keeps rearing its head down here every so often and I 'd be interested to know what you guys thought of the idea or of any experiences you have had working with a partner who was not a Police officer

[ron9572]

By the way Sleuth, loved the story about your wife getting the car towed, she sounds like a classy lady!!!!!!

[Sleuth]

I married well.
Our honeymoon included stops at the Winchester Gun Museum, the John Browning Museum, and GUNSITE (just the pro shop). You should have seen us when we were dating - I would try to seat her so I could see the door, she would sit so SHE could see the door, we end up sitting side by side so we BOTH can see the door (Most of the people I arrested did not enjoy it, she was with another, very unpopular Federal Agency).

I guess when we are out, it's like a two officer patrol - no matter who is driving, we still slow down when we see an officer on a stop to make sure they are OK. I never need to check my 6 with her along.

[ron9572]

Outstanding Sleuth, you are a lucky man.

and what a honeymoon itinary, next time you plan one, can I come too :)

look after yourselves out there

[Sleuth]

Ron, Sgt. Lobster, we have been to both your countries and enjoyed it. We also noted differences in the cultures with regard to policing. Heck, there were differences when I worked on an Indian (Native American to be PC) Reservation. For example, the Indians would not look at you while talking - they saw it is respecful, while "anglo" officers saw it as evasive.

Ron, the officers I saw in OZ were armed - are you armed, and what with?

Sgt. L., the armed officers in the UK seemed almost ashamed to admit it to a foreigner. Of course, the guns were concealed - can't frighten the sheeple.

The cultural difference was best shown by an incident at Gatwick, as we waited for our return flight. Two officers, with body armor and (Semi-auto) MP5's, walked through the terminal. An English lady with a very "upper crust" accent though it was terrible that the Police could walk around like that! We, on the other hand, were glad to see that someone was around to protect us!

Clearly, what works in the UK will not transfer to the US. I wish all of you a long, safe career. And that none of us, armed or unarmed, would ever have the need to use a gun. But it is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

[ron9572]

Hi Sleuth.

Officers here in Western Australia are armed with Glock 22's. Detectives carry the 23. We also carry OC spray and ASP batons.

We have only just converted to the Glock (I did my conversion course in about April) so you will still see officers here and there carrying the old Smith & Wesson Model 10.

On a station basis we also have Remington 870's on issue but they are not usually carried out on patrol by the suburban vehicles (Though some of the specialist groups like the District Support Groups and Major Incident Group do carry them in the car)

Anything above the shot gun is Tactical Response Group stuff and we leave it to them.

We dont hide our firearms though, we carry them on our belts as per usual.

It must be a cultural thing though, the only people who have ever spoken to me about my gun are English tourists.

[Leigh Harrington]

When I joined the Met in 85 all cars except the area car was single manned and that lasted some time until we had one Sgt stabbed to death and two more PCs nearly die and then we went to double manning/staffing . You possibly learn a lot more a lot quicker if you have to do it all yourself but you need a good basis first and fights are a lot easier to deal with if you have some support!
In Scotland they have a different legal system to England and they are required to work togther for corroboration of evidence. In 85 the women officers, we still differentiated then were only armed with a handbag, it was some years before they got the same equipment as the men.:eek:

[Cockney Corner]

Leigh

Oh dear, oh dear. The term is double "crewing". You'd get booted off your OSPRE's if you used such outrageous language in this day and age.

[JohnKelly]

Leigh, I notice that you call it Double Crewing. In the Force that I belong to, we call it 'Working Two Up' We would never work any other way than Two Up, even on Foot Patrols.

Having said that, would you believe that our Highway Patrol Members which is our Traffic Branch work 'One Up' - don't ask me why.:confused:

Police Women - we ceased issuing handbags to our Police Women around 1985. We still issue them with skirts but most of them prefer to wear slacks these days and keep the skirt for ceremonial parades only.

As part of their Uniform Issue Entitlements, Female Officers get issued with 45 pairs of pantyhose per year but alas, no handbag.

Cheers,

JohnKelly
Australia

[geordiecop II]

As far as I'm aware, single crewing has been pushed here in the U.K.
following a report from the Superintendent's Assosiation that showed
statistically that officers were more likely to injured whilst double
crewed
:confused:
I would suggest the reason for this is that when doubled up, you and
your partner are far more likely to deal with potentially dangerous
situations or make that vehicle stop in the early hours, than when
your on your own.
Of course there are situations when as officers it is more practical
to deal with things by yourself.there are certain individuals who
will only pass information to officers whom they have built up
trust over a period of time and won't entertain other officers
being present.
What really p***** me off though, is as usual,it's the higher
ranking officers who come out with this rubbish.To be told by
someone who spends their working life sitting behind a desk and
who's greatest risk comes from paper cuts,that I and my colleagues
are perfectly safe to patrol the streets on our own, is almost
offensive.
When our Area Commander recently gave a talk on the merits of single
crewing, the question was asked as to " what do we do with violent
prisoners".His reply was that he was giving consideration to putting
cages into the back of the patrol cars,like they aparently have in
some states in the US.
He was unable assist on how we were to get this violent prisoner
into the cage or the fact that US officers have the advantage of
being able to point a gun at the prisoner and ask nicely.

[Sleuth]

Geordie, the saying over here is: "You get a lot further with a kind word and a gun, than you do with a kind word."