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Invisiblecop
07-06-2003, 11:39 PM
Correction Officers are Law Enforcement Officers. Do you make a distinction in that a Police Officer is a Law Enforcement Officer as opposed To A Correction Officer? Do you view Correction Officers as wannabe Police Officers, Just "Guards, etc.,? Like to get your opinions.

Dtrain
07-06-2003, 11:57 PM
Fact of the matter is alot of POs will look down on COs. Its wrong that they do, but alot do regardless of what anyone says here. CO who work in very large metro jails and CO who work in open max prisons have very difficult and dangerous jobs and they do not get the respect their due from PO and society in general.

ofc129
07-06-2003, 11:58 PM
Yes, we make a distinction. Corrections officers are not police officers, and I would go so far as to say they are not law enforcement officers (in my jurisdiction) because they do not have arrest powers and are not required to meet POST certification.

That being said, corrections officers have a difficult and dangerous job to do, and I would not classify them as "wannabes". Some sheriff departments require new hires to spend a certain amount of time working at the detention center before they move out to patrol.

Kristen

Don
07-07-2003, 12:01 AM
Where I worked (in California) there were two distinct catagories at the county level.

A Deputy Sheriff was a sworn peace officer, be it a custody officer, or patrol, or whatever, who was a peace officer 24/7 on or off duty. He was expected to take "appropriate action" upon witnessing a felony whether on or off duty. Before I go any further, let me state that "appropriate action" was most usually being the best witness you could be, and calling for help. You were NOT expected to "front yourself" when not on the job, unless absolutely necessary to preserve life.

A Corrections officer on the other hand, is not considered a "sworn officer," is NOT expected to be a "cop" 24/7 and probably cannot even carry a firearm off duty, unless licensed for concealed carry.

HOWEVER, the corrections officer truely IS a cop. He works in the "roughest neighborhood in town," unarmed inside the facility, with odds that are hugely against him. He may well be doing the exact job that a higher paid deputy sheriff does. While he is on duty, he IS a peace officer, with all the powers and responsibilities that entails. If he is working a court detail, or a transport detail, or babysitting a hospitalized inmate, he certaily will be armed. But at the end of his shift, he can go home and forget about it until time to go to work again.

OK, I know you didn't ask for opinions, but I've never been bashful about saying what I think. I think that having the corrections officer (or detention officer) position in a county jail sucks BIG TIME. All it is, is a way for the county to save money. The C/O (orD/O) is every bit earning the same pay, as his higher paid counter part is. He just is NOT getting it.

As for the state corrections officers, I really can't say what their peace officer powers are. But I CAN tell you that as far as I'm concerned, if you are a C/O (D/O) you certainly ARE law enforcement.

Just Guards? Hell, man we are ALL JUST BABYSITTERS!:D

dannybarnes
07-07-2003, 02:16 AM
The question reminds me of the gentleman who lived in my neighborhood while I was growing up. He was a corrections officer, but a "supercop" of sorts. He even bought a used Kawasaki Police motorcylce when my local dept. started using Harley, and would ride around on it in his uniform. We figured he either really liked wearing his uniform, or worked really strange hours.

:-)

I've heard stories from some local corrections officers though... and from these, I'd say they go through a lot and deserve a lot of respect.

gatekeeper
07-08-2003, 01:46 AM
The following says alot:

Roll Call

Just as the men and women in blue attend roll call before their tour of duty, so do we, but instead of being armed with pistols, we are armed with whistles.
Just as the men and women in blue, we too do not know if we will greet our loved ones at the end of the day.
It takes a correctional officer to deal with society's undesirables, the overcrowding of prisons, the thanklessness of the public and to efficiently carry out the duties of a job that so many criticize and so little want.
During our tour of duty not only are we correctional officers we are also; police officers, firepersons, suicide watch, coroners, nurses, counselors, computer operators, mailpersons, newspaper delivery persons, the united parcel service, and more......
And with all of this in mind at the beginning of our tour...
We will stand tall beneath our hats.
With pride we wear our shields.
And with unity, integrity, and professionalism,
Like soldiers we march side by side into our unpredictable institutions both
Bonafide and qualified to handle any situation that may erupt.

Author Unknown

We all are a team, We all work to protect the public in our own way, if it wasn't for All of Us, what would the world be like?

gatekeeper
07-08-2003, 01:54 AM
"Double tap" deleted.

king310
07-08-2003, 02:06 AM
The distinction is even made in Officer .Com. It is ashame that it does not say Patrol officer.Com or K-9 Officer.com or even Booking Officer .com it has said Officer.com
Anyone can be critical of all the different divisions of law enforcment but what it comes down to is that we all need each other to make it work. With the few that try to promot their job as being the most important look at Law Enforcment with blinders and only think of themselves
Have even recieved a E-mail from one of the moderators of the forums telling me that I was less than a law officer. I have been trying to get my restricted access back which I had when i joined. It was soft soaped alittle but it still reads the same as second class LEO. :rolleyes:
name with held to protect
Under current policies, correctional staff are not eligible for RA clearance, unless they hold a sworn position with powers of arrest. I know there are good arguments for allowing corrections personnel, but that is the current policy.
:mad:
and what is really strange is that all the moderators are not in law enforcment.:eek:

OfficerDotCom
07-08-2003, 02:12 AM
All existing policies related to who gets where will be revisited in the near future. We will ensure security in the various restricted access areas, and also be fair.

Thanks

Sig220Man
07-08-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by king310
Have even recieved a E-mail from one of the moderators of the forums telling me that I was less than a law officer. I have been trying to get my restricted access back which I had when i joined. It was soft soaped alittle but it still reads the same as second class LEO. :rolleyes:

Although I have only been a mod for a few months, I have NEVER heard any of the staff that I worked with refer to, or imply that, CO's being second-class citizens.


Under current policies, correctional staff are not eligible for RA clearance, unless they hold a sworn position with powers of arrest. I know there are good arguments for allowing corrections personnel, but that is the current policy.
:mad:

Again I have never heard that, but I will post this in the Staff Room and get back to you.


and what is really strange is that all the moderators are not in law enforcment.:eek:

With the exception of Cygnus/OfficerDotCom, ALL of the moderators that have been here since the beginning of the year (right before I was promoted to moderator) are either current or retired LEO's.

Cptwolf127
07-08-2003, 02:41 AM
Every jurisdiction is different as it pertains to Peace Officer / LEO status for Detention / Corrections staff. The job is tough, and I know a lot of police officers that wouldn't do the job without a gun. Just like cops, the few bad apples (like the guy riding around on his Harley) give the rest of these professionals a bad name. Would all of NYPD like to be judged by the "buddy boys"? or NOPD for Ms. Franks? Regretfully, the public, and a lot of officers like to paint with a broad brush.

I have worked both sides of the walls, as a street cop, and in jails. The hours are just as bad, the persons you deal with are obviously not the best caliber, and your fellow criminal justice professionals don't give you the respect you deserve, frequently calling you "wannabes".

I wrote a post recently regarding ethics on the Big House board seeking input, and received some interesting ideas. I think that if some officers would really take the time to talk with a CO or DO, they would find that many parts of the job are similar, and that the ethical dilemmas and such are very similar. Yes, there are distinct differences, but that is what makes them unique.

My agency for years started all staff out in the jail division. We now use Detention Staff. My experience has shown that those that started out in the jails / prisons in general dealt better with people, use force more judiciously, think on their feet better, and usually remember EVERYBODY they ever dealt with in the criminal world.

True, I would rather put crooks in jail than babysit them, but the job does have its rewards. Thanks for the opportunity to vent!
:D

Deputy757
07-08-2003, 04:03 AM
Sticking to the original question. Yes, I make a distinction between police officer and corrections officer. Yes, I consider them both to be law enforcement officers. No, I don't view CO's as "wanna-be's". I think CO's have just as tough a job as we do. I don't envy them one bit and would treat them just as I would another LEO out on the street.

MsPiper
07-08-2003, 04:26 AM
I work along side POs and COs in my position in the Identification Bureau.

The COs are Sworn Officers who just got the FOP to represent them in contract negotiations and whanot.

Rider
07-10-2003, 03:22 AM
I think that I could lend a little expertise on this subject. In the last year I went from a non-sworn DO position in one state to a sworn Deputy Sheriff position in Colorado. Before I was considered just a Detention Officer, now everyone says i'm a cop. Right now as a new Deputy I am assigned (gag) to the jail. The only difference that I can see between the two jobs is: 1, more training for a Deputy, more pay for a Deputy, more respect by civilians for a Deputy. It is kind of funny, I am literally doing the same job as before, but when I used to tell people I was a DO, the reaction was kind of "oh", now it is like "instant respect, just add power". People act around you in a different way when they find out your a cop, even though I am doing the exact same job (I guess it is the added power thing). What is the difference between a CO/DO and a cop? certainly not the type of person. Cops who look down on CO/DOs have serious ego problems, they are no better then CO or DOs. In fact, for what I have seen, cops who have started out in a detentions/corrections field make better cops (not in all cases). After all, I deal with hundreds of the worst scum humanity has to offer, in only one 12 hour day. How many street cops can say that?

PINTSZDPI
07-11-2003, 03:37 PM
Define "real law enforcement officer" ?

When a citizen or fellow officer makes ignorant comments like that, their is usually a reason for it.

ignorance or ego? so which is it?
-pint
:rolleyes:

Valor55
07-11-2003, 04:22 PM
The job of a CO is different from the job of a police officers. You are comparing apples and oranges. If they aren't certified and sworn law enforcement officers by state code then they aren't law enforcement officers in that state. In my state all the jails are run by the Sheriff and are staffed by deputies. I trained side by side with the deputies in the academy and they were sworn in with me. They are law enforcement officers. Correctional Technicians are not law enforcement officers in this state.

I have a great deal of respect for what people do in jails in prisons, I know it is dangerous and not easy. But they aren't police officers and I'm not a deputy sheriff in a jail. State code defines what qualifies as law enforcement officer.

PINTSZDPI
07-11-2003, 05:34 PM
as posted:

"Correction Officers are Law Enforcement Officers. Do you make a distinction in that a Police Officer is a Law Enforcement Officer as opposed To A Correction Officer? Do you view Correction Officers as wannabe Police Officers, Just "Guards, etc.,? Like to get your opinions"

I think he's asking if you consider a CO to be a sworn member of the law enforcemnt community or just a "wanna-be". I think he's asking about your personal opinion.

Now VA Code considers "law-enforcement officer" to mean any FT or PT employee of a PD or SO, any Conservation Officer, Game Wardens, Jail officers in local and regional correctional facilities, ALL DEPUTY SHERIFFS, whether assigned to law enforcement duties, court services, or local jail responsibilities, AUX PO's, AUX SO's, etc. etc. in 18.2-57 (E). I guess you would argue that this is a mistake in the code-book since many of these officers are not DCJS-LEO certified.

Criminal Justice community is made up of a wide array of people from your local street cop to your judge, attorney, CO's, Probation/Parole officer, etc. etc. ALL OF THEM play a role in the enforcement of law and order and in my opinion ALL OF THEM are "REAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS". Now i think that addresses the original posters question as it was asked. Not, "my codebook says i'm the only real LEO because i'm DCJS-LEO certified".
-pint
:rolleyes:

retdetsgt
07-11-2003, 06:06 PM
I agree that the two jobs are apples and oranges. I have a lot of respect for corrections officers, they have a difficult job and I wouldn't want any part of it.

Having said that, I don't regard them as law enforcement per se. Difficult as it is, their job is to contain and keep inmates in a certain area. Law enforcement is just that, enforcing laws out on the street. We are all part of the justice system and they perform a valuable and necessary service. But being part of the justice system is not synomous with law enforcement.

I know a number of corrections officers, (years ago dated a female corrections officer) and although most are doing that job because they want to, I have come across a significant number who have tried to pass themselves off as police officers. I have never seen a police officer try to pass him/herself off as a corrections officer.
Jim

JKT
07-11-2003, 07:30 PM
From the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/cqcgi?CQ_SESSION_KEY=QMLKNKMOWJLV&CQ_QUERY_HANDLE=141938&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=1&CQ_TLO_DOC_TEXT=YES)


Art. 2.12. [36] [43] [44] Who are peace officers
The following are peace officers:
(1) sheriffs, their deputies, and those reserve deputies who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(2) constables, deputy constables, and those reserve deputy constables who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(3) marshals or police officers of an incorporated city, town, or village, and those reserve municipal police officers who hold a permanent peace officer license issued under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code;
(4) rangers and officers commissioned by the Public Safety Commission and the Director of the Department of Public Safety;
(5) investigators of the district attorneys', criminal district attorneys', and county attorneys' offices;
(6) law enforcement agents of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission;
(7) each member of an arson investigating unit commissioned by a city, a county, or the state;
(8) officers commissioned under Section 37.081, Education Code, or Subchapter E, Chapter 51, Education Code;
(9) officers commissioned by the General Services Commission;
(10) law enforcement officers commissioned by the Parks and Wildlife Commission; (continuted)

I am a Deputy Sheriff. I hold a Peace Officer License AND a County Jailer License. I worked the street for 5 years or so, then went to work as a Deputy in the Detention Division. Most Sheriff's Departments in Texas have Jails or Detention Facilities, and employ Deputies. The majority of the Deputies working in Jails, etc., are Licensed as County Jailers.

There are, however, some Departments who will have a small contingent of Licensed Peace Officers working in their Detention Division for transports, etc.

My Department does both. Of our Detention Staff, about 35 to 40% are Peace Officers, and quite a few of them will work security jobs in their time off.

So, to answer the intitial question: There are both, here.

A lot depends on the proffessionalism of the individual Officer and the Department as to how they are perceived, and, yes, we have had a few Detention Officers that have tried to pass themselves off as Peace Officers. The good thing is that they didn't last very long.

Don
07-11-2003, 07:32 PM
Having said that, I don't regard them as law enforcement per se. Difficult as it is, their job is to contain and keep inmates in a certain area. Law enforcement is just that, enforcing laws out on the street.

So just who DOES do the LAW ENFORCEMENT in your jails? Laws are broken in a custody setting every day. Who is it that is responsible for investigating those violations, and dealing with them? My guess is, it is those guys who are actually WORKING custody, whether they be called "deputy" "corrections officer" or "detention officer."

ofc129
07-11-2003, 07:57 PM
In our jail, infractions by inmates are investigated by sworn deputy sheriffs or Department of Corrections correctional investigative services officers (also sworn and POST certified, but powers are limited to inmates and DOC employees), not corrections officers.

So now "judges, attorneys, probation officers, et al" are REAL LEOs because they work in the criminal justice system? Should I consider the 400 lb. court clerk, dispatchers, and everyone who ever served on a jury in that broad brush as well? :rolleyes: Here is my state's definition of "law enforcement officer": A policeman, deputy sheriff, deputy constable and other official who has authority as such official to make arrests.

Nobody is bagging on corrections officers. It is a difficult, dangerous job...nobody has called them wannabes or any other slurs, so I don't see where all the anger is coming from. It is a fact, however, that they are not required to meet the same standards as LEOs, and they do not have arrest powers. That is where the "apples and oranges" part comes in. If you want to go out and arrest people and put 'em in jail, become a police officer. If you want to keep 'em line once they get there, become a corrections officer. Right now I work part-time as a civilian investigator at my department and I do EVERYTHING the officers in my unit do except swear out felony warrants. Am I an LEO? NO. I lost that status when I turned in my badge and gun to return to school. If I identified myself to a citizen as a peace officer and did an act in furtherance, I would go to jail for impersonating a peace officer. So would a corrections officer. (In my state, can't speak for others).

Kristen

Don
07-11-2003, 09:12 PM
Kristen, I don't see any anger in this thread. I see an on-going discussion, which is what a forum is for.

PINTSZDPI
07-11-2003, 09:21 PM
as posted:

So now "judges, attorneys, probation officers, et al" are REAL LEOs because they work in the criminal justice system? Should I consider the 400 lb. court clerk, dispatchers, and everyone who ever served on a jury in that broad brush as well?

ok i get it now. I am a real LEO since i am a patrol deputy. However, CO's, probation officers, etc. etc. are not real law enforcement officers. Thanks for setting me straight. ;)
-pint

retdetsgt
07-11-2003, 11:25 PM
Don,

Investigations within the jail are done by regular county deputies.. Corrections officers are not deputies.

Jim

Don
07-12-2003, 12:44 AM
Ok Jim, point taken. That was the same in our county, as far as investigations. However the CO's certainly "hung a lot of paper" on things they observed, made arrests in custody, did court testimony. In other words when they were on duty, they were peace officers. But only when they were on duty. There were things they did not do. They could not be shift supervisors, they could not sit on the discipline boards.

But for the most part, they did the same job the deputies did. They did routine searches, prisoner escort, etc. I worked in a small facility, less than 100 inmates (at least usually.) We ususally only had one deputy working per shift (other than weekdays) along with two or three corrections officers, a civilian booking clerk and a civilian dispatcher.

OTOH, I can remember being the ONLY one on duty in the jail before we got the new facility. One deputy, one civilian matron, and one dispatcher. (shudder):(

Anyway, the system of having deputies and co's both working the jail is not one that I agree with. (Not that anyone ever asked me):D But you can wind up with an awful lot of hard feelings because you have folks doing the same work, at different rates of pay. You also do not have the built in coverage for field emergencies. You can't just pull a couple of folks out of the jail to fill in when the excrement hits the oscillator.

retdetsgt
07-12-2003, 12:53 AM
B]OTOH, I can remember being the ONLY one on duty in the jail before we got the new facility. One deputy, one civilian matron, and one dispatcher. (shudder):([/B]

Yikes!

When I first started with Portland, we had a city jail that was little more than a dungeon.... It was manned by city police officers. Fortunately, it had been condemned by so many grand juries over the decades that they finally closed it and turned over all corrections to the county, where it should be.

Jim

JKT
07-12-2003, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Don
....Anyway, the system of having deputies and co's both working the jail is not one that I agree with. (Not that anyone ever asked me):D But you can wind up with an awful lot of hard feelings because you have folks doing the same work, at different rates of pay. You also do not have the built in coverage for field emergencies. You can't just pull a couple of folks out of the jail to fill in when the excrement hits the oscillator.

We have 170 Deputies assigned to the Detention Division, and about 70 assigned to the road. Of the 170 in Detention, about 65-70 are Peace Officers or in the Basic Academy, and of course, all the Road Deputies are PO's.

We have in the past, and will in the future, pull from the Jail when necessary for emergency operations. Several of our Detention Deputies are retired from other agencies, including at least one retired State Trooper! At one point, nearly half of our Firearms Instructors were assigned to Detention!

***

Granted, in a lot of cases, the PO license is not necessary, but there are those of us that prefer to work Detention and have side jobs that require us to be armed, thus requiring us to be PO's.

FWIW, I've had my PO License for 22 years (Master Certificate), and my Jailer License for 21 (Advanced Certificate), so I don't consider myself a "wannabe", because I've been on both sides of the street.

wprebeck
07-12-2003, 05:49 PM
Wow....you all should be glad you don't work the streets around here. There would be a LONG wait inside the sally port to drop off a prisoner.
Just so everyone's clear on my end of things....(and yes, I AM biased): I work at a fairly large jail (over 2000 inmates), and I have all the arrest powers, be they on or off duty, that the po-po has. Policy says that I can't do traffic stops, that's about the biggest difference between us and the police regarding the arrest issues. Now, since a few (OK, more than a few...a lot!) of responses seem to be of the opinion that those of in the jail aren't "real" LE, what are we? Let's see.....we take custody of your drunk, nasty, POS, so that you can leave, and bring back another one. Here's an idea: keep them yourself....take them home, feed them, clothe them, etc. Why not? You expect us to do it for you, but then don't wish to place us on the same level as the "police". Umm...yeah, sure.
I understand that some states may not grant statutory arrest authority to corrections officials, but that does NOT mean that we aren't LE. How many of you are represented by, or a member of, the FOP? See their website for their opinion on corrections....It may surprise you.

Deputy757
07-13-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by wprebeck
Let's see.....we take custody of your drunk, nasty, POS, so that you can leave, and bring back another one. Here's an idea: keep them yourself....take them home, feed them, clothe them, etc. Why not? You expect us to do it for you, but then don't wish to place us on the same level as the "police". Umm...yeah, sure.

You are making it hard for me to maintain my original position! I don't expect you to do anything but the job you signed on for. Like I said before, and many have said since then, being a CO is a job many of us would not ever want to do. My hat is off to those that do choose to do it, and I would in all likelihood (I can think of some exceptions) treat CO's I encounter the same as I would other LE. However, the job's are inherently different. Yes...you deal with the same POS but in entirely different settings. Arrest, search and seizure issues, etc...for those that are lodged in your facility, are all different for you. I'm sure that there are many aspects of your job that we never encounter on the street. It just goes to show that the professions ARE different.

wprebeck
07-13-2003, 01:10 PM
Deputy,
What county are you in? I'm thinking it's not Jefferson, because our deputies don't do too much of what seems to be considered "real" LE, either. They serve papers for the most part...I know there are a few criminal guys on the SO, but the vast majority of them are courthouse security, or civil process servers. Even the criminal guys don't patrol, per se.
You're correct in saying that we deal with them in a different setting. Here's some comparisons I like to make when speaking to this issue:
1) You have to worry about being shot. So do I...I've got hospital runs, funeral details, and the outside chance one of the morons manages to slide in a gun that wasn't found by the arresting officer.
2) You have to worry about being stabbed. Guess what? I remember a shank that was about 15-18 inches long, and nicely sharpened.
3) You have to worry about other people jumping in to help the POS you're trying to arrest. Ummm, our odds are 2:160 or so (1:80, if you prefer), and that's on a good day. We're currently 65 officers short, and that does NOT include the 20 or so we have on active duty military.
4) You have to worry about possible vehicle pursuits, and all the dangers that come with them. I have to worry about being held hostage, and gang-raped by a bunch of HIV positive individuals.

For every type of scenario that "street" LE can come up with, I can envision a situation that has similar dangers inside the jail. Granted, there are morons that work there. I can think of a few that are on the street. If you're local LE (here in Jefferson county), we just lost 2 of our dumber ones to Metro...does the fact that they now work on the street make them any more worthwhile than when they were on the inside? Nah...I've seen both of them bring people in, and I'm embarassed to say they're from the jail. They're not the only ones....Again, if you're from around here, remember the two city guys that got hooked up on Robb 1? How about the county guy a few years back that was selling drugs/guns to felons?

My point is that it's the people, not the job. Our job is JUST as dangerous, and just as LE related as any other "street" position. If you don't feel this way, feel free to drop by for a tour. Spend a shift with us...Listen to the morons talk crap for 8 hours. There's nothing you can do but ignore them. Get poop thrown on you, along with some urine. It's fun....Oh, you did mention search and seizure..Thankfully, we do have a LOT more leeway. It's amazing what you find on people, especially when you take custody of them from the other agency. Care to guess how many officers are called back to add charges on people due to improperly performed searches? It's at least 1 or 2 per night....That's if we even bother to call them back. Most of the time, we do the paperwork ourselves.

So, let's see....the danger involved to both the street officer, and the corrections officer is comparable. We both deal with the same people. We both have the same arrest powers here in Kentucky (one of the fastest ways to jail is to tell a JCCD officer that he can't arrest you), so what's the difference? We're not "real" LE? Tell that to the woman who got locked up at Kentucky Kingdom last week. Or to the guys who get brought back from HIP because they had a beer. Oh, and we have two officers detailed to the DV unit with the Metro PD. They deal with HIP people that have DV charges. The HIP (home incarceration program) officers ride around in pretty cars, with pretty blue lights, just like the PD. THey tend to make runs with the police, if they're near one, and not busy with something of their own. But I guess since they're corrections officers, they're "not realll" LE. I'd bet that the officer they're backing doesn't think the same way.

ASOinFL
07-13-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Invisiblecop
Correction Officers are Law Enforcement Officers. Do you make a distinction in that a Police Officer is a Law Enforcement Officer as opposed To A Correction Officer?

Agreed. In the extent that they are LEO's in title, not neccessarily the same powers of authority. Hel, we have code enforcement and animal control officers who are included by definition in the county ordances as Law Enforcement Officers. Are they same type.....No, but they're still a type of LEO. Same with corrections.


Originally posted by Invisiblecop
Do you view Correction Officers as wannabe Police Officers, Just "Guards, etc.,? Like to get your opinions.

As far being treated the same by me. Sure. If they put on a badge and deal with the same citizens I deal with then I treat them as an equal until they (by actions/deeds) change that. All have a tough job in their own way.....but as long as they're backing me and my team then I treat accordingly. :)

Invisiblecop
07-15-2003, 02:30 AM
I am the author of theis question. I submitted for a multitude of reasons : Feedback, personal opinions (people here are annonymous for the most part) - general attitude - compare different areas of the United States and Abroard regarding duties, titles, status (Peace/Police status), educational reqirements, etc. Kristen : You seem rather angry. I don't know why. Regarding : Correction Officers not being a Peace Officers - I can only speak from my point and position. I'm a N.Y.C. Correction Officer and "WE ARE PEACE OFFICERS!" We have the powers of arrest (on&off duty), we can serve warrants (while on duty), and nearly everything a Police Officer can do we can - with a few minor exceptions. Our "Law Enforcement Powers" have grown over the years. I eventually see us merging with N.Y.P.D. Transit and Housing Police have merged with N.Y.P.D. in recent years. I say this because from a fiscal view point it would be better and more cost effective to have ONE Agency. Aside from this point it would give Officers options and choices. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you know that most Police Officers that are involved with on duty shootings and have 10 or more years are much more likely to be seriously or fatally wounded in a shootout? I didn't pull this out of the air these are Factual Statistics gathered by reliable agencies - the most prominent is National Law Enforcement Center and National Criminal Justice Institute. There are others that are well known they're too numerous to list. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The point that I'm trying to make in pointing out these statistics is twofold : Police agencies that have an "Umbrella Force or a Metroploitan/Municipal Force" often incorporate Corrections into their agencies. These agencies may require rookie/new jack/ probationary Officers to work in the local/county jail before hitting the streets. Here again this can be a Big Plus in favor of the Officer! Why? Officers who do not have "Street Smarts" or who haven't been exposed to inner city life will learn a great deal from being "inside." In my opinion, 99.9% will be better Police Officers, more alert, more street wise, less likely to fall in the of duty. Not all who become Police Officers are from the "Inner City" or city in general. Not to say small towns do not have their share of problems inheirant to their community, but in jail, it's as if the "Streets Are Now Inside." You have the urban community inside a Correctional Facility. More than that you tend to become "Mentally Sharper and Wiser!" I say this because now you don't have a "Weapon" or in some instances a partner or a large back-up of fellow Officers! You survive & thrive by your Wits! You have to learn to make a decision in the bat of an eye - just like in the streets - although this decision -- can have devasting results too! It can end in injury to you - your partner - or a full scale riot! You wear a great many "HATS." In a short period of time you're a "counselor, teacher, role model, referee, paramedic, psychologist, social, worker, Law Enforcer, minister, interpretor, etc. You learn to make a "community" where there was none. Most of these inmates would not intermingle with each other, let alone choose to live near each other! You now have "Mastered" a task that most people couldn't or wouldn't dare! The point is when you hone your skills inside -- you'll be SURPRISED at how you respond outside! You won't be as quick to draw your weapon -- less likely to let the situation escalate - you'll be sharper at "reading a persons" body language - eye movements - vocal tone - you most definitely will be aware of weapons or objects that can be used as a weapon (no matter how inocous or benign looking that object may be) these are the things that will preserve your life! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I fully understand that some jurisdictions have part time Officers including P.D. There are some areas that have a "Privatized Correction Department." These Departments are dangerous. Their hiring methods leave much to be desired as well as their background checks! The largest Private Correction Department is "Wackenhut." The "New Wave In Jails!" These jails are backed by corporations and most often staffed with people who don't have L.E. experience. The few that are retired L.E.'s are usually relegated to Supervisory positions to supplement their retirement. These jails truly have "GUARDS" not Officers! These people do not have any L.E. status! They barely make above minimum wage! ------------------------------------------- I really feel that no matter what position you hold -- if you've taken an Oath - We Are all Brothers and Sisters accomplishing a common goal -- Keeping the bad guys out of the community and away from society! Are we as Correction Officers recognized for it - Not really! No one sees what we do - how we do it -- we are the Lepers/Bastard Child of Law Enforcement. We are not seen or heard! That's what makes our positions a the more difficult. In essence do the dirty work and take the abuse! I'm not crying about it! I've made my bed and sleep very well in it! I made this career choice WORK FOR ME not Against me! As with life -- it's what you make it! I want to Thank all of you who took the time to reply! I sincerly appreciae it!

Deputy757
07-15-2003, 03:10 AM
wprebeck,
No...it's not Jefferson, though I am from Louisville. Our SO does the LE for the county in addition to all the typical SO duties. Your post has several good points. And as to the danger factor, I agree that the potential for violence against CO's is just as great, if not greater than it is for us. However, after reviewing the statistics of officers, including CO's, killed in the line of duty, it's very clear that policing is inherently more deadly, as that is where the overwhelming majority of officers are killed.
I do believe we are all part of the criminal justice system. However, I don't believe the classification of law enforcement officer applies equally to all sworn officers. You mentioned some circumstances where CO's happened to make an arrest but these are exceptions, not the rule. I've known some very competent CO's that went on to become law enforcement officers. I've known some very competent CO's that stayed CO's because that is what they wanted to do. It makes no difference to me..they all have my respect. Like you said, it's not the job..it's the person. If I don't think I can trust someone, I don't want them backing me no matter what their badge says.

wprebeck
07-15-2003, 04:05 AM
http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=1359706&nav=0RZFGt44


Even the news gets it wrong....The guy this happened to is a friend and fellow officer. He almost died the other night...enforcing the law, I might add. Contrary to what Deputy757 thinks, JCCD officers make a number of off-duty arrests. Why? because we're LAW ENFORCEMENT officers. We are charged with upholding the very same laws that he is. Doesn't matter if it's off-duty or on-duty. That's the point I'm trying to make, unsuccessfully it appears.
Back to this incident above. This drunken idiot almost killed a fellow officer because he didn't want to leave the store. A fight ensued, and had it not been for the actions of two civilians, I might be wearing a black ribbon right now, and planning on a funeral. The officer has very young children, one just born less than a year ago. Don't tell him that he's not an LE officer. He almost died doing his job. (Yep, off-duty. Not at jail, but working a second job)
It's funny, you know. The back of my dept ID says that I'm a peace officer. My dept says I can arrest people. What the heck does that make me? If someone out there hasn't gotten it yet, part of law enforcement is ensuring that the morons who get locked up STAY locked up. I cannot stand the smug, self-righteous comments regarding corrections officer not being "real" LE that I have heard. We make arrests on a routine basis, whether it be in, or out, of the facility. By the way Deputy, did you know that the same law that grants YOU to carry your weapon off-duty, does the same for us? Police officers have a statute all their own. And since you're not a "police officer", up until the last KRS revision, you fell under the "peace officer" statute regarding off-duty carry. Hmm, so did I. Says so right on the back of my ID, KRS and everything. Of course, since the last revision, it specifies deputies/sheriffs, as well as jailers/corrections depts. Still, we're in the same statute. Also, you might want to check out KRS 67B..granting metro corrections depts (mine) peace officer status. There is a statutory difference between "peace officer" (you and me) and "police officer". Betcha didn't know that, did ya?
Maybe you feel that since we don't share the same academy, we're not "real" LE..WOuld you say that to the guy from New York? I'd be willing to bet he does more LE work than either one of us. But gosh, just because he wears blue, and gets a badge, gun, and arrest powers, doesn't mean he's "real" LE, after all.

I'm probably going to make this my last post on this thread, because the attitudes of some people posting here are worse than the frickin trolls on this board. I do not wish to end up being banned from this board, so I'll leave with this: I'm going to mention the FOP again. EVeryone should know who they are, but if not, the letters stand for "Fraternal Order of Police". You have to be a SWORN LE officer to be in the FOP. They represent my agency in collective bargaining. That should say something, shouldn't it? After all, if we weren't "real" LE, then we couldn't be in the lodge, let alone represented by it. I don't really believe that I'll change anyone's mind with my little tirade....Those who believe what they will, usually cannot be easily swayed. If that were the case, then they probably wouldn't be effective LE officers. Just remember something I said in one of my original posts...The quickest way to get arrested in Jefferson county is to tell a JCCD (now LMCD, due to merger) officer that he can't arrest you, because they're nothing but a guard. ;)


To all the other "guards" out there, I don't answer to it, and MY badge says "OFFICER":p

Oh, and you might not want to get pulled over by the wifey. SHe gets a little upset when she hears people slamming us, as well. And she IS the po-po.

cyborg009
01-11-2006, 07:55 PM
Entered in Error

cyborg009
01-12-2006, 11:59 AM
I'm a CO at the Clark County Detention Center (CCDC), Las Vegas, NV, (and retired military). Our jail, oops excuse me, our "Detention center" that is, is a home to near 3,000 inmates. Mostly pretrial detainees. Just for the record, COs here are all Nevada POST certified. And the general public cannot distinguish between us & the POs because we wear the exact same uniform as our counter parts on patrol side (only difference is that our badge says "Corrections Officer" on top of the badge, where others may say "Sergeant, or Detective etc.")
I went through the academy along with seventy or so PO recruits, we ran together, learned same academics in the same classrooms, DTs & firearms training for the first 8 weeks or so, then we split up to learn the Corrections side of the house at the jail while the PO recruits continued on to learn the PO stuff. Though PO recruits have much longer academy then ours for obvious reasons, POs & CO salaries are EXACTLY SAME here. We're also authorized to carry off-duty on the Badge because we are... a "Commissioned Officers", a sworn Peace Officer. Many COs volunteer to work outside the jail for OT when there's a major events in town either to provide a paddy wagon support or to assist with crowd control etc.
On Las Vegas' popular New Year's Eve Celebration night, over 200+ COs are tasked to gear-up (baton, gun, vests, riot gears etc.) to work the Vegas strip along side POs as an Arrest Teams etc.
Some COs work outdoors on daily basis in the area of "Field Services, House Arrest, Recruitment or Transport Prisoners to/from Hospitals etc.", and ofcourse you're required to be fully armed.
I've seen few younger COs apply to become a POs, and I also know many prior POs/Troopers who became a CO. If you like the action then you can apply to become a PO, personally I chose to be a CO because I find it very challenging to work with inmates, it's amazing what you can do with your IPC skills (Interpersonal Communication Skills)(a "Verbal Judo" of the jail). And also working inside in a controlled enviroment w/AC is nice too, especially when it's a scorching 120F+ heat outside (140F w/your vest on), why not, PO & CO gets paid the same anyway.
I have a great respect for the POs for the risk they take out on the streets and they respect COs for what we have to put-up in the jail. We shared the sweat & tears at the academy, and learned to become a team. Whether you're a PO or CO recruit it didn't matter, we helped each other get through.
Though I do carry off-duty most of the time, I have no desire to play COP once I'm out of my uniform and off-duty.
HOWEVER, for example, if I happen to come across a bad traffic accident or witness a PO needing assistance, I WILL jump out of my POV to assist them in a heart beat, and yes I'm a CO and not a PO, but I'm still a sworn "Peace Officer", and our tax payers expects me to engage when neccessary.

A very proud member of LVMPD.

Tim Dees
01-12-2006, 08:00 PM
And the general public cannot distinguish between us & POs because we wear the exact same uniform as our counter parts on patrol side (only difference is that our badge says "Corrections Officer" on top of the badge, where others may say "Sergeant, or Detective etc.")COs at LVMPD used to not have the brown stripe on the trouser leg, where the cops did. Is that still the case?

TX Heat
01-13-2006, 08:44 AM
The jobs are very different.
CO's don't "enforce" laws. Their job is very important to society. I'm not knocking them but they are not Law Enforcment Officers.

Edit: After reading some posts above, I realize that not all states do this the same. CO's in Texas are not necessarily certified peace officers. They have different training for CO's and Peace Officers. So no, a two week CO school does not make them the same as the 16 week (or longer) police academy graduates.

Jabrim
01-13-2006, 11:40 AM
The jobs are very different.
CO's don't "enforce" laws. Their job is very important to society. I'm not knocking them but they are not Law Enforcment Officers.

Edit: After reading some posts above, I realize that not all states do this the same. CO's in Texas are not necessarily certified peace officers. They have different training for CO's and Peace Officers. So no, a two week CO school does not make them the same as the 16 week (or longer) police academy graduates.

Well anyone can argue their opinion but CO's as I am are an employee of law enforcement. The academy I went through was 14 weeks and only from what I remember 43 or 53 hours less than the LEO academy that was ran. I look at the "respect" like this, if you respect me then I respect you no matter what your profession. If you don't respect me then that's fine, you can also kiss my *** during the process because we all have hard jobs being in law enforcement.

SgtScott31
01-13-2006, 07:57 PM
This topic can vary sooo much from state to state.

In TN, there is a variation between state corrections, county corrections, and police officers/sheriff's deputies.

State corrections in TN do not have any arrest powers and I do not view them as law enforcement officers at all. They go to a state correctional academy for training and are assigned to various state prisons throughout TN.

Now, county correctional officers can vary. Some county Sheriffs depts in TN deputize all of their deputies, some just deputize their road officers. I know the county agencies surrounding Middle TN usually have their new hires spend 1-2 yrs as a "Jailer" and then allow them to move to the road (or court officer). Usually, while in the jail, they are deputized, but not commissioned, then when they move to the road (or courts), they go to the TN Law Enforcement Academy (TLETA) and have full arrest powers as any officer.

Many Sheriff's depts in TN will deputize all of their officers, and give them badges, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are commissioned officers with powers of arrest. Once they are allowed to go to the road or assigned as a court officer, then they are usually commissioned.

Like I said, it truly varies.

State correctional officers - not a LEO in TN
County corrections/deputies - can depend in TN upon the agency as far as who are commissioned LEO's and who are not
City/State PD's - yes, full LEO's (aside from dispatchers)

SWH
01-13-2006, 08:11 PM
While I respect them and know for a fact that I couldn't do their jobs, they are more 'guards' then they are 'cops'. They will get PC, but they are NOT 'on the job'.

FedLEO83
01-14-2006, 07:27 AM
On the State level, this differs from State to State. For example, we have read here where some Jailers are not sworn personnel. I found this interesting, but I can understand how this happened. When looking at NYS, we see a distinction between a "Police Officer" and "Peace Officer." The authority is what separates the two.
On the Federal level, Correctional Officers are considered primary LE. Interesting enough, all personnel working in a correctional institution are considered primary law enforcement officers, and they have the same retirement as other LEOs in the Fed system. This is interesting as well.
When HR218 was signed into law, the U.S. Attorney General issued a memorandum addressing who were LEOs in regard to HR218, and personnel in the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) were included.
By Fed law (18 U.S.C. 3050), the jurisdiction of BOP personnel is narrow, but they do have powers of arrest. They only have original jurisdiction if requested to assist another Federal Officer or Agent, such as a person in an 1811 (Criminal Investigator) position.
The important thing to remember is that we are all part of the Criminal Justice System, and it takes each one of us working together to keep this system working effectively and smoothly.
I hope this helps. :)

mickmack111
01-14-2006, 08:58 PM
Quick story... I moved into an apartment complex where they wanted me to be the courtesy officer in exchange for free rent. When I moved in, 2 out of the 3 other apartments in the area where lived in by CO's for a federal prison. When they found out I was with the S.O. (ny patrol unit is parked out front), suddenly I was their friend. When I was just some young guy with his hat on backwards, I wasn't sh*t to them.

Then a female friend of mine came over that night, and one of them stepped outside and started talking. My friend asked him how he knew me *I had walked back inside), and he told her, "Oh, me and another cop live next to him, so we all know each other." Just met the guy 4 hours ago!!

Police bumper stickers on all their cars.....TMPA stickers (police union), "Back The Badge" stickers...etc.

Always wearing 5.11 gear...it's kinda funny.

But I'm not hatin'!!

ftlaudcop
01-14-2006, 10:20 PM
lot's of viewpoints

a wealth of information.......!!!


www.schackdaddy.com

SCREWED
01-14-2006, 10:35 PM
I used to be a state co in FL.

I am now a police officer.

My problem is with those COs that claim to be something they're not........a police officer.

Our instructors in the CO academy were very clear.

"When you are inside these gates you are the law. When you go outside these walls you are not the law so obey it just like the rest of the world is supposed to."

I've only dealt with one CO as a police officer in the last department I was working for. I checked him at 70 in a 45............er.......I can overlook that I guess............but his tag is registered to another vehicle..........hmm.............and no insurance. Professional courtesy kind of goes out the window then. ;)

Caoimh
01-15-2006, 01:00 AM
One team. One fight.

Different for each area and state. I have great respect for my Brothers in the jail

hounddog
01-15-2006, 02:50 AM
While I respect them and know for a fact that I couldn't do their jobs, they are more 'guards' then they are 'cops'. They will get PC, but they are NOT 'on the job'.

Good point. I would go on a shooting spree if I had to be stuck with inside with those scmbags. And they are on the job, just not our job.

In Michigan the state DOC guys can go into a bar and drink in uniform(unless that has changed in the last couple of years). They can wear beards, even have extensive ciminal history. Many CO's have felonies on the books. So, they are not cops. Still- I would not do that job for all the money in the world. Well, maybe all the money I would! :rolleyes:

ftlaudcop
01-15-2006, 04:01 PM
correctional officers in michigan with felonies on the books......
highly un-likley...they have to handle, possess fire arms and qualify
every year like police officers.....

in most state's the hiring criteria age and educational requirements,
no domestic violence, no felony convictions.....all the same..
each l.e.o agency then " fine tunes " their critical requirements after that......watch the movie " serpico" and tell me have things changed that much......who has more rotten apples working for them...???

police or corrections ?????


neither one has a halo over their head


www.schackdaddy.com

cyborg009
01-16-2006, 07:34 PM
entered in error

LHPCop
01-16-2006, 08:32 PM
I've done both (PO and CO). This has been my experience (in Florida):

A State Prison/Correctional Institution is a city within a fence. Inmate life is somewhat similiar to that of a citzen's in the free world, minus freedom. Most are required to work 40 hours a week. They do recreational activities. They go to church , the Gym, Libraries, restaraunts (chow hall) and/or canteens, they sleep in their apartments (cells). They keep Doctor appointments. They walk throughout the City (Prison). They "hang" in front of thier apartment buildings (housing units). In doing these things, they also BREAK THE LAW and or/RULES.

When they do this, they may go to Jail (confinement) until they go to court (internal disciplinary hearings). If found guilty, they recieve the appropriate sentence.

The Police Department in which the Prison is located does not patrol that city (prison). They don't investigate the majority of charges/violations that are commited in the Prison. They don't respond to the scene of a fight, medical emergency, unruly citizens (Inmate), fire, disturbances, rapes, domestic/neighbor disputes (they do happen...often), stabbings, etc.
THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS DO.

I'm glad I am on the Road now, but I did the same things inside as I did out. I didn't patrol in a vehicle. I only carried a gun if I was in the tower or when I transported an Inmate out of the facility. ALL of my citizen's inside were FELONS. Only an extremely small percentage of my current citizens are Felons.

By State Code Co's may not be Law Enfrocement Officers. In reality, they truly are.

cyborg009
01-17-2006, 01:21 AM
COs at LVMPD used to not have the brown stripe on the trouser leg, where the cops did. Is that still the case?

You are absolutely correct, until few years ago the LVMPD COs did not have the brown stripes along side of their trousers like the POs do, but we have them now. Therefore, the general public can no longer distinguish between POs & COs unless they're staring straight at your chest and take notice of the "Corrections Officer" written above our metal Metro badge (note: LVMPD are commonly refered to as "Metro" by the local media). And during the cold weather, when we're wearing the green Metro uniform jacket, even the POs can't tell that we're COs because the jackets does not identify us as COs.
Recently, I was shocked to find out that the Metro Officer/Recruiter I spoke to at the local Job Fair 3 years ago was actually a CO and not PO. I now work with this Officer in the jail.

Deputy_Dave
01-17-2006, 03:21 AM
Ok, I want to vent a little here and ad my $.02 worth. I am currently a Deputy in Idaho. I am classified " A Duly Sworn Deputy Sheriff" for the county I work. I have all the arrest powers of my fellow deputies on the road. I work in the Jail! We are all paid the same and considered equal. With the exception of a few, all of us in the department get along very well. We also pull double duty and go on patrol as well as Marine patrol. We must be POST certified and firearms qualified.

Many of the Road Deputies came from the Jail and I respect them for that.

Here is a huge differance between a Jail Deputy and the average Road Deputy or city Police......Who knows what charges can be booked and what is a jailable offense??? I see to many cops bring in people "under arrest" and don't have a clue if is even a jailable offense. We also have to know the law regarding chargable law and court procedures....We expose our bodies to threats on a scale far greater than any guy out on the street and for a period of time you almost can not assign odds to...

Fortunatly I work for an awsome Sheriff who respects his jail staff.

We have to issue citations and write P/C's just as a road guy does, we have to testify in court just as a road guy does.

I came from two other states who's correctional staff, jail deputies were limited in arrest powers. It always burned me up to see the lack of respect shown to us when people think of us as mearly JAILERS.....I think the best cops come from the jail. I apreciate the Couty Sheriff Departments who send their deputies to the jail first.

When it all comes down to it.....We are on the same side, have the same goals and belong to the same walk of life....I realize there are the people, like the guy who rides the old squad bike in uniform, that give us a bad rap! One thing that has come of age in most corrections is the progression of edjucation....we are not a bunch of big, dumb, brawny apes any more!!!!!

I respect both sides of the badge and ask that people who consider them selves L/E and look down on corrections to please take a look at what it really is......And also realize that there are a lot of people working the jails that save you road guys a lot of time and some embarrisment by catchng and or fixing your mistakes! :D We compliment each other and can make both our jobs better with respect and understanding

cyborg009
01-17-2006, 03:27 AM
Just last week on 01/10/2006, our local TV & CNN reported that a felon who was being brought to our jail by a bail bondsman, somehow managed to slip out of his cuffs & wrestled the bondsman's gun away and began shooting as he fled. The media reported that a "Police Officer" intervened.

The fact is, it was actually our brave on-duty LVMPD "Corrections Officer" who heard the shots from within the entrance of the facility then ran out, radioed "officer needs help, shots fired!" as he returned fire with his service weapon to save the bondsman, PO wasn't even there yet. The suspect was soon captured by our LVMPD SWAT Team. This Corrections Officer received an Award.

Watch the News clip:

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?s=4348543

SCREWED
01-17-2006, 01:41 PM
Here is a huge differance between a Jail Deputy and the average Road Deputy or city Police......Who knows what charges can be booked and what is a jailable offense??? I see to many cops bring in people "under arrest" and don't have a clue if is even a jailable offense.Sounds like you have some major training issues in your department then. I mean, it seems opposite of the way it is around here.


...We expose our bodies to threats on a scale far greater than any guy out on the street.. :confused: WTF? Not to say that you aren't in danger in your job but come on. To say one or the other is in more danger than the other is borderline inflamatory wouldn't you say?

...
And also realize that there are a lot of people working the jails that save you road guys a lot of time and some embarrisment by catchng and or fixing your mistakes! :D Again, seems as though if that's the case where you work there are some major training issues that need to be corrected in regards to your road guys. It's not that way at all where I work.

psychoshock
01-17-2006, 02:45 PM
i agree they are not the same

Deputy_Dave
01-17-2006, 10:17 PM
I am not trying to say they are the same, nor am I trying to say one is more important than the other.

What I am saying is they are both important and that a lot of people do not realise what a detention officer does. Most people, including a lot of road officers, do not have a clue what happens in the jail! There is no way you can deny that. In fact the statement that many havve provided here " I would never work in the Jail" goes to prove it. There is a lot of mis conception of detention officers and the job they do. Anyone who has worked both sides of that fence can attest to that.

I have worked in a couple different departments in two different states. All of which I have seen the same thing......Your Jial staff, for the most part, help their road counter parts in great detail. A road officer can not ppossibally remember everything there is to remember about charges and booking. The Jail staff do it on a daily basis and find as well as help with that often with very little thanks. Road officers know the road and what needs to be done there...It is not a lack of training by any one on either side of the gate but more a daily use issue.

I am not trying to pick a fight but rather shed some light that we need each other. I play both sides of the gate where I work now and it works very well. We respect each other and we learn things every day.

It would be like a road officer trying to be a tax accountent, there is no way you can remember the 85,000 different tax codes and laws. Nor does the detention officer. But the detention officer deals with the courts and judges every day and knows things a road officer could not! With and respect given to each party life would be much easier....

gotthblues
01-17-2006, 10:30 PM
well, i am glad that atleast one jail has their confinement officers squared away, back home, it aint the case, jailers have absolutely no arrest powers, they damn sure dont know **** about state statutes * call me after i leave and ask whether my charges are a felony or misdemeanor*, have absolutely no formal training, other than how to type on a keyboard, dont break up fights themselves, they call the pd and ask for officers to come take care of business, so on so on, some have been former misdemeanor customers themselves, and oh yea, i took in two guys that i arrested, one bucked up and the other joined in, only 1 of the 5 jailers helped me. if you work in a squared away jail with squared away jailers, then hell ya, kudos to you guys, but i have never seen such, so for now, till i see otherwise, jailers are not officers,

and no i wouldnt do a jailers job either, for many different reasons.

Deputy_Dave
01-17-2006, 10:43 PM
I can respect that.....It is like any thing, there are road guys that are not worth the shoes they walk in....I will feel fortunate that I have worked in some good departments then ;) We all have our faults but we still need to work together....I would have some serious problems with detention officers like you talk about. I would be ashamed to work there!!!!

We take care of our own here...If we are in the jail or on the raod. We have to write our own citations and p/c's right down the line.

I have only worked in Washington State and Idaho, both of which have pretty decent detention academies and all detention officers regardless of departments must be POST certified.

RLTaylor@dslext
01-21-2006, 02:03 AM
The distinction is even made in Officer .Com. It is ashame that it does not say Patrol officer.Com or K-9 Officer.com or even Booking Officer .com it has said Officer.com
Anyone can be critical of all the different divisions of law enforcment but what it comes down to is that we all need each other to make it work. With the few that try to promot their job as being the most important look at Law Enforcment with blinders and only think of themselves
Have even recieved a E-mail from one of the moderators of the forums telling me that I was less than a law officer. I have been trying to get my restricted access back which I had when i joined. It was soft soaped alittle but it still reads the same as second class LEO. :rolleyes:
name with held to protect
Under current policies, correctional staff are not eligible for RA clearance, unless they hold a sworn position with powers of arrest. I know there are good arguments for allowing corrections personnel, but that is the current policy.
:mad:
and what is really strange is that all the moderators are not in law enforcment.:eek:

Corrections in CA are a different ballgame. We are sworn officers, and can carry weapons off duty. We are also paid more than nearly all law enforcement agencies. We investigate criminal activity that leads to the arrest and enforcement of law both inside and outside the walls. Please realize that not all states are the same in this respect.

Pedro56
01-21-2006, 07:15 AM
Well seeing some of the gang bangers/thugs that work for Crook County, I do not recognize them as LE they are glorified security for a building that houses trash. Unfortuneatly a lot of the people working there are trash as well. Not saying all of them just a good amount of them.

ftlaudcop
01-22-2006, 04:02 PM
not sure how to respond to that , other than chuckle.....

political cronies or the alderman's boy's with their hand out all the time

for bribes, pay off's, and institutional corruption......

my dad in the late 50's for $300 to the alderman had his choice

of city jobs police, fire , sanitation and place ment on the civil service list.

and with the movie serpico being representitive of the way things are

in the big cities....now that it's 2006 how much has changed...?

can't say " good quality " is 100 % in either police or corrections.


www.schackdaddy.com

Pedro56
01-22-2006, 04:44 PM
not sure how to respond to that , other than chuckle.....

political cronies or the alderman's boy's with their hand out all the time

for bribes, pay off's, and institutional corruption......

my dad in the late 50's for $300 to the alderman had his choice

of city jobs police, fire , sanitation and place ment on the civil service list.

and with the movie serpico being representitive of the way things are

in the big cities....now that it's 2006 how much has changed...?

can't say " good quality " is 100 % in either police or corrections.


www.schackdaddy.com


You are correct. But Crook County Deputies are the worst. Unfortuneatley for me that is how I see every CO.

SeVere
01-22-2006, 06:10 PM
You are correct. But Crook County Deputies are the worst. Unfortuneatley for me that is how I see every CO.

I can't agree with you. I worked there and observed just how many good people there are that work at CCDOC. There are some less than desired but they are definitely not in the majority. A lot of people that work for CCDOC would make fine Police Officers and many have done just that.

21blue28
01-23-2006, 12:35 PM
Different jobs descriptions depending on the state and jurisdiction.
Different job titles, classifications and arrest powers depending on state.
Different types of hazards and types of threat.

I, for one, would not like to work in a jail/prison. My hat is off and all of that. I do show PC for CO's. In my town, there is the Police Dept and the Sheriff's Dept with overlapping jurisdictions.

Here, CO's can be sworn or not. CO's first start in the jail and if they stand out, they get to go to an academy to get POST certified as law enforcement/sworn deputy. I beieve that just to be a CO, they still have to get some type of POST training, but get no arrest powers and only can work in the jail.

Having said that, here the street deputies work the jail but can also serve papers, answer calls that come through their dispatch (a non-911 number, why anyone would not call 911 is a mystery to me), work the courts and transport inmates. Lots of different jobs if they are the sworn deputies. If they are not sworn, they don't work outside the jail.

The experiences that I have had with the CO's is varied. Some are professional, some aren't. The deputies on the street are also varied. A LOT will wait by an accident until a police officer shows up to work the wreck. I get very ****ed when a deputy hands me the DL's and insurance papers with a smile like he did SUCH A BIG favor. They are authorized to work wrecks and they are CERTIFIED law enforcement. Why not do the work? Some few deputies do work the wreck and say "I got it." Few, but I do respect it. If you are going to be a law enforcement officer, that also means the mundane boring work also.

There are a lot of street deputies that love to show up to the "good calls" such as someone running/serving a high risk warrant/fight/stolen car/etc. Sure, I want as much back-up as I can get, but law enforcement is not just about the exciting crap ------- it is also about the REAL work: paperwork, boring calls, PR calls, etc. And before anyone flips out, by "real work" I mean work that is not fun. Everyone loves a good chase, but who loves writing a 10 page report?

21blue28
01-23-2006, 12:36 PM
Also, another difference:

CO's KNOW that they are with a bunch of bad guys.
LEO's have to guess.

freem40
02-02-2006, 03:23 AM
Here, read this.... law enforcement officer-definition by reading the language laid forth.... officer who enforces law. anyone who does that is an leo, I don't care who raises their left hand or right hand, at the end of the day , the guy that stopped the actions the actor was acting out whether it be with super citizen power or arrest authority laid forth by a state or federal mandate,law,rule, et al. is a leo. are their going to be arguments about accreditation now? people working for an accredited agency are more of police officers than those in small unrecognized agencies? too much belly aching and need for categorization. categorize those who are encarcerated and or arrested not one another. go by how the nra recognizes law enforcement.

marshaldan
02-02-2006, 08:30 AM
Correction Officers are Law Enforcement Officers. Do you make a distinction in that a Police Officer is a Law Enforcement Officer as opposed To A Correction Officer? Do you view Correction Officers as wannabe Police Officers, Just "Guards, etc.,? Like to get your opinions.

I do. just the way I was brought up.

staticX
02-02-2006, 03:16 PM
Deputy,
What county are you in? I'm thinking it's not Jefferson, because our deputies don't do too much of what seems to be considered "real" LE, either. They serve papers for the most part...I know there are a few criminal guys on the SO, but the vast majority of them are courthouse security, or civil process servers. Even the criminal guys don't patrol, per se.
You're correct in saying that we deal with them in a different setting. Here's some comparisons I like to make when speaking to this issue:
1) You have to worry about being shot. So do I...I've got hospital runs, funeral details, and the outside chance one of the morons manages to slide in a gun that wasn't found by the arresting officer.
2) You have to worry about being stabbed. Guess what? I remember a shank that was about 15-18 inches long, and nicely sharpened.
3) You have to worry about other people jumping in to help the POS you're trying to arrest. Ummm, our odds are 2:160 or so (1:80, if you prefer), and that's on a good day. We're currently 65 officers short, and that does NOT include the 20 or so we have on active duty military.
4) You have to worry about possible vehicle pursuits, and all the dangers that come with them. I have to worry about being held hostage, and gang-raped by a bunch of HIV positive individuals.

For every type of scenario that "street" LE can come up with, I can envision a situation that has similar dangers inside the jail. Granted, there are morons that work there. I can think of a few that are on the street. If you're local LE (here in Jefferson county), we just lost 2 of our dumber ones to Metro...does the fact that they now work on the street make them any more worthwhile than when they were on the inside? Nah...I've seen both of them bring people in, and I'm embarassed to say they're from the jail. They're not the only ones....Again, if you're from around here, remember the two city guys that got hooked up on Robb 1? How about the county guy a few years back that was selling drugs/guns to felons?

My point is that it's the people, not the job. Our job is JUST as dangerous, and just as LE related as any other "street" position. If you don't feel this way, feel free to drop by for a tour. Spend a shift with us...Listen to the morons talk crap for 8 hours. There's nothing you can do but ignore them. Get poop thrown on you, along with some urine. It's fun....Oh, you did mention search and seizure..Thankfully, we do have a LOT more leeway. It's amazing what you find on people, especially when you take custody of them from the other agency. Care to guess how many officers are called back to add charges on people due to improperly performed searches? It's at least 1 or 2 per night....That's if we even bother to call them back. Most of the time, we do the paperwork ourselves.

So, let's see....the danger involved to both the street officer, and the corrections officer is comparable. We both deal with the same people. We both have the same arrest powers here in Kentucky (one of the fastest ways to jail is to tell a JCCD officer that he can't arrest you), so what's the difference? We're not "real" LE? Tell that to the woman who got locked up at Kentucky Kingdom last week. Or to the guys who get brought back from HIP because they had a beer. Oh, and we have two officers detailed to the DV unit with the Metro PD. They deal with HIP people that have DV charges. The HIP (home incarceration program) officers ride around in pretty cars, with pretty blue lights, just like the PD. THey tend to make runs with the police, if they're near one, and not busy with something of their own. But I guess since they're corrections officers, they're "not realll" LE. I'd bet that the officer they're backing doesn't think the same way.

Thank you for responding the way you did. You went into more detail than I would have cared too. Louisville Metro Corrections is cutting edge as far as jails are concerned. The skills I learned at Southfields CJTC made me a better peace officer-and I am greatful to my instructors.
I worked 3rd floor for a short time with some great officers, 1 of them is now an Instructor(former U of L football player).
In short, you guys have it tougher than I did in the state prison. I went back to my Lieutenant position for pay reasons(and job assignment), but I am glad that I was able to walk in your shoes for a while.

Toobs124
02-03-2006, 01:20 PM
There is a weird guy that lives upstairs from me, he is a Corrections Officer. When I told him I wanted to be a police officer, he got all excited and was like "welcome to the club man" and "yeah dude, thats what I do, Im a Peace Officer". He always brags about how much money he makes and how dangerous his job is. This surprised me when he said "welcome to the club, Im a peace officer" because in my CJ classes there is no mention of Correctional officers being peace officers. I always considered CO's to be just prison guards.
So, I asked my instructors and they educated me on the differences between the two. Technically the guy upstairs is right, he is a peace officer, but he does not have jurisdiction outside the prison. That means, according to my instructor, as soon as he leaves the prison he is a civilian.
I have respect for CO's, they have a very dangerous job and they have alot of responsibilities in the prison. BUT, I really don't think it's fair that they equal themselves to police officers. For one thing, the prison guard upstairs only went to a 6-8 week academy compared to POST academies 6-8 months. CO's training academies are considered "Rinky Dink" by most LEO's Ive talked to. Another thing is that although CO's have a dangerous job, they by no means have to deal with such diverse duties as a police officer has. Also, a police officer is a 24/7 responsibility, and CO's aren't. And finally, in this age a cop has to be community oriented and has to deal with more politics.
But, the LA county Sheriff's deputies run the county jail and I don't consider them CO's, so its weird. I think the guy upstairs wishes he was a cop, but he was just too weird to be one. However, I do respect CO's alot, they go to work everyday with people that want to kill them. And I don't think its cool for a cop to look down on CO's because its all part of the same system. But, when a C.O tells me he is a peace officer just because it sounds better than "Prison Guard", I can't help but get kinda wound up. I went to school for 4 years for a CJ degree, I plan on going to a 6.5 month academy and work and study my butt off in order to be called a peace officer. I don't think its right for an 8 weeker to call themselves it based on a technicality.

Just My opinion i guess...

cyborg009
11-03-2007, 02:37 PM
entered in error

cyborg009
11-03-2007, 03:32 PM
Just for the record; the following statement is printed on the reverse side of my department "CO" I.D. Card:

THIS IS TO CERTIFY THAT THE PERSON DESCRIBED HERE ON IS A DULY APPOINTED AND REGULARLY COMPENSATED PEACE OFFICER ENPOWERED TO CONDUCT INVESTIGATIONS AND MAKE ARRESTS UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF THE STATUTES OF THE STATE OF NEVADA. ORDINANCES OF THE CITIES OF THE LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE COUNTY OF CLARK. AUTHORIZED BY THE SHERIFF OF CLARK COUNTY

LVMPD CO Academy is 4 months long (POST certified).


Here's an interesting fact:

LVMPD 2007 Police and Corrections Officers' annual salary after our probation is $54,350 (not including the frequent almost-mandatory OTs for Corrections Officers):

COMPARED TO;

(example) Dallas-Texas Police Officers' 2007 salary is $43,754 after their probation.

Some LVMPD COs (I mean regular COs, not sergeants) have already cleared 200K! ...legally:) with OTs this year so far.

I don't get to drive those cooool patrol-cars (honestly, I wish I did). But believe me, I'm soooooo glad (especially my nagging wife) that I've chosen the career of a CO, Jail guard, Jailer, or whatever some like to call me, that's ok.

If fighting crime on the streets is your thing, that's cool and I probably would have pursued that career path if I was single. Now, I'd rather earn more as a CO to provide a better life for my wife and kids with much lesser risk of injury or liability.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/lv-other/2007/feb/18/566625760.html

JMTX
11-03-2007, 07:25 PM
Are correctional personnel "peace officers" or "police officers"? No.

Are they law enforcement officers? Yes.

At least at my county, peace officers and licensed jailers wear the exact same uniform (different badges though.) Our jailers can be weapon certified and according to the sheriff, we are all "Deputies." Just some of us are deputies with the power of arrest and some are not.

Jailers can't do everything a peace officer does obviously, but we work interchangeably often. For example, we have plenty of jailers who are peace officers and working inside the jail in jailer positions.

I don't see how a jailer is any less an law enforcement officer than the peace officer who's sitting behind a desk in classification all day.

VtCO84
11-03-2007, 07:59 PM
ONE TEAM, ONE FIGHT.

without us, you PO's wouldn't have a job
with you PO's, we wouldn't have a job

jurisdiction, murisdiction, i could care less. I go in, I do my 8/12/16 hours and I leave. I love my job. It's that simple. If some jack@$$ police officer wants to think less of me because I don't have a gun, a taser and sweet looking car, that's his problem. I don't owe him anything and he doesn't owe me anything. Just my $.02.

retired
11-03-2007, 08:53 PM
There are many jobs in the justice system that are classified as a sworn peace officer but their functions and responsibilities are totally different.

Several professions carry the title of doctor, but they have different functions. A doctor of dentistry performs a different function from a doctor of cardiology, who performs a different function from a doctor of history.

Sworn doesn't mean we all perform the same job.:):)

sob153
11-04-2007, 12:31 AM
Jobs are totally different. i for one would not want to be a CO. I can put them away all day, but I don't want to watch them. If I conduct a traffic stop, if he is a co or leo, it doesn't matter to me. There is enough fish in the sea to hook another fish. It takes a special person to be in either job. Some can't be cops and as I stated earlier, some can't be COs. Some states they are Sworn and some are just civilian.

Himso
11-04-2007, 02:58 AM
Well seeing some of the gang bangers/thugs that work for Crook County, I do not recognize them as LE they are glorified security for a building that houses trash. Unfortuneatly a lot of the people working there are trash as well. Not saying all of them just a good amount of them.

Oh, we're the gangbangers. Guess you havent been reading the news lately sport. Check your own house pal.

Read my previous posts, I'm more critical of my own department than anyone but your comments need to be addressed. I have never considered myself the police even though I am deputized by the Sheriff. I know my function. I jail. I jail well. I have seen more action in the last two years than some people may see in a career. Does that make me law enforcement. I don't know and I don't care. Come work the Supermax division Pedro and have your eyes opened. Maybe you have met some Sheriff's that were scumbags, guess what? I have jailed alot of your scumbag Officers also. The last 5 were the SOS idiots but I would not ever insult the CPD or its Officers. CPD always has had my greatest admiration. But you really sound like someone that got chased out of a bar by a Jailguard.

NYCTNT
11-04-2007, 03:01 PM
Some of you guys are just plain rediculous.

"jailers", "guards"... whats with this down talk?

If they are SWORN into L/E, then let it be. Heck, even a security guard will get a break from me for a minor infraction.

PO's,CO's... may not be the same job, they may not be on patrol and respond to a domestic call but damn if I want to be in a jail for 10+hrs on mandantory overtime with stench of urine and feces everywhere. To work in a place where prisoners shank each other, attack you, throw garbage/feces at you, masterbate on the door handles... WOW the list is endless.

True, those of us on patrol do have to guess whats what and who is who in the street, but we can at least go to the local Quicky Mart and get some coffee, talk, relax a little on a slow night.

We may have done the hard part of actually scooping up the bad guy off the street, but they also have a hard part of babysitting this idiot.

Where I am from... if you are a Police Officer, Correction Officer, Probation Officer,Warrant Officer, Customs Officer, FBI, CIA, or a Secret Service agent.. they all get a slide. Get my drift?

And there are bad apples in EVERY SINGLE organization from the White House down to some 10 man police department in la-la land.

jdlong
11-05-2007, 11:39 AM
Some of you guys are just plain rediculous.

"jailers", "guards"... whats with this down talk?

If they are SWORN into L/E, then let it be. Heck, even a security guard will get a break from me for a minor infraction.

PO's,CO's... may not be the same job, they may not be on patrol and respond to a domestic call but damn if I want to be in a jail for 10+hrs on mandantory overtime with stench of urine and feces everywhere. To work in a place where prisoners shank each other, attack you, throw garbage/feces at you, masterbate on the door handles... WOW the list is endless.

True, those of us on patrol do have to guess whats what and who is who in the street, but we can at least go to the local Quicky Mart and get some coffee, talk, relax a little on a slow night.

We may have done the hard part of actually scooping up the bad guy off the street, but they also have a hard part of babysitting this idiot.

Where I am from... if you are a Police Officer, Correction Officer, Probation Officer,Warrant Officer, Customs Officer, FBI, CIA, or a Secret Service agent.. they all get a slide. Get my drift?

And there are bad apples in EVERY SINGLE organization from the White House down to some 10 man police department in la-la land.

Well said! It's ridiculous to argue "who is or isn't a law enforcement officer". I'm a Probation Officer in a rural Nor Cal county. We're armed on and off-duty with full arrest powers. I work side by side with my SO and PD bros everyday. We toss trailers together, serve warrants together, dope hits together, etc. We're on the county NARC Task Force as well (Sheriff's Office, Local PDs, BNE Agents, DA Investigators, CDC Agent, Probation).

So, is a Probation Officer a "law enforcement officer"?? Well, I don't drive a marked unit and make traffic stops...but I do make entry into homes of hard core dirtbag felons with my LE bros at my side everyday (knowing I'm going 10-15 and not knowing what's on the other side)...I do have to conduct searches in the worst neighborhoods and arrest felons that know they are going to prison...every person I contact on the streets and in my office is a convicted felon...100% guaranteed. Is that "real" law enforcement work? Does officer safety risk get any higher? And some in this post would say that Probation Officers aren't? :rolleyes:

We're all in the same brother-sisterhood where I work. County Corrections, State Corrections, Probation Officer, Parole Agent, Deputy Sheriff, Police Officer, DA Investigator, Game Warden, etc. We all play different roles...but we're definitely on the same team...working with the same pool of dirtbags. I highly respect all of my fellow LEOs. They have my back in my county and I have theirs. The way it should be! ;)

DeputySC
11-05-2007, 04:24 PM
In SC, a LEO and corrections officer are totatily different. Two different jobs, different training, different academy and everything. However, they are on the same team. :)

PeteBroccolo
11-06-2007, 12:03 AM
Here in Saskatchewan, guards in our Provincial Correctional Centres, as well as the guards in the Federal Penitentiary and Federal Psychiatric Centre are Peace Officers but are certainly not Law Enforcement Officers nor are they Police. The guards do have a very tough job, but when any offence is committed by an inmate in either a Provincial or Federal institution, the Police are called in to conduct the investigation.

The Provincial or Federal guards might actually carry firearms when transporting prisoners, and certainly the Provincial Sheriffs that now do such escorts are armed, they still do not have full Police powers, nor do they require such powers. So, yes, there is a difference up here.