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View Full Version : HR 218-LEOSA Concealed Carry Permit for retired LEO.



codemanski
12-28-2010, 10:27 AM
I was wondering if anyone had any information on the procedure for applying for a CWP through the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act, (LEOSA), HR-218? I know each state has a different policy on this. To date I have not been able to find out how to obtain one. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks!
Codeman

kc12
12-28-2010, 10:49 AM
I was wondering if anyone had any information on the procedure for applying for a CWP through the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act, (LEOSA), HR-218? I know each state has a different policy on this. To date I have not been able to find out how to obtain one. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks!
Codeman

Actually each state can't have a different policy, it's federal law that was passed to standardize concealed carry for LEOs throughout the states. Essentially the requirements are, your agency has to give you retired LEO creds after serving 15 years (I think the time limit was reduced by the recent amendment) and you have to qualify yearly on the state firearm course. It is not like a CCW the state gives you. The actual law (before the recent amendment) can be found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000926---C000-.html

codemanski
12-28-2010, 11:32 AM
kc12,
What I meant is that I am having a problem with my former agency and getting a copy of my "walking papers". Thanks for the info!
Codeman

Iowa #1603
12-28-2010, 11:36 AM
Actually each state can't have a different policy, it's federal law that was passed to standardize concealed carry for LEOs throughout the states. Essentially the requirements are, your agency has to give you retired LEO creds after serving 15 years (I think the time limit was reduced by the recent amendment) and you have to qualify yearly on the state firearm course. It is not like a CCW the state gives you. The actual law (before the recent amendment) can be found here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000926---C000-.html

BUT if your agency does NOT issue retired credentials, you are out of luck.------and the new amendment makes the length of service 10yrs.

I know a lot of retired LEO's in my area just go get a carry permit (Iowa is now a SHALL ISSUE state) from the county sheriff.

SgtCHP
12-28-2010, 04:03 PM
kc12,
What I meant is that I am having a problem with my former agency and getting a copy of my "walking papers". Thanks for the info!
Codeman

Are you being retired or terminated? If you are retiring with ten or more years of service, you need a retired ID card issued by your agency and a certification that you are permitted to CCW under state law. If you are being terminated, you are ineligible to CCW unless you get a permit from your PD or SO.

deputy x 2
12-28-2010, 04:05 PM
"walking papers" uhh that doesn't sound good. Sgt is correct.

Iowa #1603
12-28-2010, 05:55 PM
Codeman is a honorably retired Correctional Officer from Colorado--------with LEO status.

His "walking papers" are his retirement papers...........................


My department does not issue retired credentials either!------

codemanski
12-28-2010, 07:03 PM
Thanks Iowa...you are correct on my status. I guess it's time to start rattling some "cages"! I think i'll start with HR, the Training Academy and the Inspector General and see where it goes! Thanks for the input all,

Codeman

M1garand
12-28-2010, 07:06 PM
If you have retired ID or proof of retirement/separation after 10 years or longer service, you are eligible. However, you must get certified in firearms at least once a year from the agency that you retired from or if your agency doesn't provide such qualification, then you can get it done through a private instructor who is certified to teach firearms to active police firearms in that state.

deputy x 2
12-28-2010, 08:25 PM
My apologies codeman.

1911user
12-28-2010, 09:16 PM
Are you being retired or terminated? If you are retiring with ten or more years of service, you need a retired ID card issued by your agency and a certification that you are permitted to CCW under state law. If you are being terminated, you are ineligible to CCW unless you get a permit from your PD or SO.

Sarge, there is NO requirement to have a certification from your former dept. All that is REQUIRED for retirees is a photo ID (10yrs seperated honorably) and a recent (within 1 yr) qualification to your dept or state, fed standard. A CCW permit is strongly suggested if your state has one. The CCW protects you outside LEOSA in those states requiring licenses. An example...here in NYS, if you miss a qualification and didn't have a permit you could be a collar. The next example is a doosie. The Feds have a law on the books making it a crime to carry in a school zone...UNLESS you are active LE or a permit holder. The law has not be revised to include a retiree under LEOSA. If it were a state law retirees would be exempt, as FED law would trump state law...not in this case. There are others, too numerous to explain here.

Sorry for the long winded post.

codemanski
12-29-2010, 08:33 AM
My apologies codeman.

No problem x2...I should have worded my post differently. Thanks!

Codeman

kc12
12-29-2010, 10:13 AM
Sarge, there is NO requirement to have a certification from your former dept. All that is REQUIRED for retirees is a photo ID (10yrs seperated honorably) and a recent (within 1 yr) qualification to your dept or state, fed standard. A CCW permit is strongly suggested if your state has one. The CCW protects you outside LEOSA in those states requiring licenses.

LEOSA is your permit. it doesn't matter whether a state requires a permit or not. That was the point of LEOSA to stop each state from coming up with it's own laws for LEOS and making it very difficult to figure out all the nuances.


An example...here in NYS, if you miss a qualification and didn't have a permit you could be a collar.

That's anywhere, not just NY. If the retired officer misses a qualification then they are no longer covered under LEOSA. This is where having a CCW would come in handy.


The next example is a doosie. The Feds have a law on the books making it a crime to carry in a school zone...UNLESS you are active LE or a permit holder. The law has not be revised to include a retiree under LEOSA. If it were a state law retirees would be exempt, as FED law would trump state law...not in this case. There are others, too numerous to explain here.

Yup, the LEOSA didn't not adjust any federal laws only state and local laws. It would be interesting to see the outcome if something like this ever goes to court. Essentially carrying under LEOSA is carrying on a CCW, but I'd like to see the court's decision on it. "Essentially carrying on a CCW" and "carrying on a CCW" are not the same thing.

1911user
12-29-2010, 10:52 AM
LEOSA is your permit. it doesn't matter whether a state requires a permit or not. That was the point of LEOSA to stop each state from coming up with it's own laws for LEOS and making it very difficult to figure out all the nuances.

That's anywhere, not just NY. If the retired officer misses a qualification then they are no longer covered under LEOSA. This is where having a CCW would come in handy.



Yup, the LEOSA didn't not adjust any federal laws only state and local laws. It would be interesting to see the outcome if something like this ever goes to court. Essentially carrying under LEOSA is carrying on a CCW, but I'd like to see the court's decision on it. "Essentially carrying on a CCW" and "carrying on a CCW" are not the same thing.

Getting a CCW from your home state covers you where/when LEOSA doesn't. There are LOOPHOLES in LEOSA, so, although not required for a retiree, it is prudent to get at least one and better if you have a few. It will be a long time before all the kinks are worked out regarding LEOSA. I for one do not want to be a TEST case.

SgtCHP
12-29-2010, 03:24 PM
Sarge, there is NO requirement to have a certification from your former dept. All that is REQUIRED for retirees is a photo ID (10yrs seperated honorably) and a recent (within 1 yr) qualification to your dept or state, fed standard. A CCW permit is strongly suggested if your state has one. The CCW protects you outside LEOSA in those states requiring licenses. An example...here in NYS, if you miss a qualification and didn't have a permit you could be a collar. The next example is a doosie. The Feds have a law on the books making it a crime to carry in a school zone...UNLESS you are active LE or a permit holder. The law has not be revised to include a retiree under LEOSA. If it were a state law retirees would be exempt, as FED law would trump state law...not in this case. There are others, too numerous to explain here.

Sorry for the long winded post.


a certification that you are permitted to CCW under state law.

It is a matter of semantics. We call the qualification document certification. Without it, you will not be covered by your former agency - which is what it is all about. I suggest that any retired peace officer join their state association and obtain the separate insurance that many associations offer. For example, the California Peace Officers Association offers legal services which cover a great many things.

1911user
12-29-2010, 06:37 PM
It is a matter of semantics. We call the qualification document certification. Without it, you will not be covered by your former agency - which is what it is all about. I suggest that any retired peace officer join their state association and obtain the separate insurance that many associations offer. For example, the California Peace Officers Association offers legal services which cover a great many things.

Sarge, with all respect I gotta ask? What is your FORMER agency covering? Once you retire and have the retired ID they hgave nothing to say about it. It is the individual retirees responsibility to get re-qualed. You actually have a year after retirement before you need to get requalified, its in the law.

And yes I agree 100%, you need to get a good insurance policy once you are out and in some cases...while you are still in. NRA, FOP and there are some just for retired FEDs. Not expensive at all.

JonThePollack85
12-29-2010, 07:34 PM
What are the requirements for active LEOs to carry concealed in other states?

Iowa #1603
12-29-2010, 08:27 PM
What are the requirements for active LEOs to carry concealed in other states?

Carry your ID.......................& Badge

eagleI
12-30-2010, 12:44 AM
There are retired offficers who are ineligible to carry off-duty: retired less than 10 years, medical retirement for psychiatric reasons, voluntary retirement prior to firing or filing of criminal charges. Here in Calif. it is up to the Sheriff or Chief of Police to authorize a retiree to have a CCW. We have to pass the Departments course of fire to get the CCW otherwise we are in violation of the law. My retired card states "CCW Authorized". If we want HR218 status our ID card states we meet the HR 218 requirements.
As far as what is "covered". Don't you think our former agency that issues a CCW will be named in a lawsuit some mopes family files after we legitimately 10x him defending ourselves? California PORAC offers LDF coverage. If we are involved in a shooting we get a free lawyer from beginning to end. I think the cost is $48/year.

SgtCHP
12-30-2010, 09:27 AM
Sarge, with all respect I gotta ask? What is your FORMER agency covering? Once you retire and have the retired ID they hgave nothing to say about it. It is the individual retirees responsibility to get re-qualed. You actually have a year after retirement before you need to get requalified, its in the law.

And yes I agree 100%, you need to get a good insurance policy once you are out and in some cases...while you are still in. NRA, FOP and there are some just for retired FEDs. Not expensive at all.

This is the CCW law for CA Peace Officers who have retired.



Excerpt from the California Penal Code, Section 12027:

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

(a) (1) (A) Any peace officer, listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2,
or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, whether active or honorably
retired, other duly appointed peace officers, honorably retired peace
officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, other honorably
retired peace officers who during the course and scope of their
employment as peace officers were authorized to, and did, carry
firearms, full-time paid peace officers of other states and the
federal government who are carrying out official duties while in
California, or any person summoned by any of these officers to assist
in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is
actually engaged in assisting that officer. Any peace officer
described in this paragraph who has been honorably retired shall be
issued an identification certificate by the law enforcement agency
from which the officer has retired. The issuing agency may charge a
fee necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the agency
in issuing certificates pursuant to this subdivision. As used in
this section and Section 12031, the term "honorably retired" includes
all peace officers who have qualified for, and have accepted, a
service or disability retirement. For purposes of this section and
Section 12031, the term "honorably retired" does not include an
officer who has agreed to a service retirement in lieu of
termination.

(B) Any officer, except an officer listed in Section 830.1 or
830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of
Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have an
endorsement on the identification certificate stating that the
issuing agency approves the officer's carrying of a concealed
firearm.

(C) No endorsement or renewal endorsement issued pursuant to
paragraph (2) shall be effective unless it is in the format set forth
in subparagraph (D), except that any peace officer listed in
subdivision (f) of Section 830.2 or in subdivision (c) of Section
830.5, who is retired between January 2, 1981, and on or before
December 31, 1988, and who is authorized to carry a concealed firearm
pursuant to this section, shall not be required to have an
endorsement in the format set forth in subparagraph (D) until the
time of the issuance, on or after January 1, 1989, of a renewal
endorsement pursuant to paragraph (2).

(D) A certificate issued pursuant to this paragraph for persons
who are not listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of
Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 or for persons
retiring after January 1, 1981, shall be in the following format: it
shall be on a 2X3 inch card, bear the photograph of the retiree, the
retiree's name, date of birth, the date that the retiree retired,
name and address of the agency from which the retiree retired, have
stamped on it the endorsement "CCW Approved" and the date the
endorsement is to be renewed. A certificate issued pursuant to this
paragraph shall not be valid as identification for the sale,
purchase, or transfer of a firearm.

(E) For purposes of this section and Section 12031, "CCW" means
"carry concealed weapons."

(2) A retired peace officer, except an officer listed in Section
830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c)
of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall
petition the issuing agency for the renewal of his or her privilege
to carry a concealed firearm every five years. An honorably retired
peace officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of
Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 who retired prior
to January 1, 1981, shall not be required to obtain an endorsement
from the issuing agency to carry a concealed firearm. The agency from
which a peace officer is honorably retired may, upon initial
retirement of that peace officer, or at any time subsequent thereto,
deny or revoke for good cause the retired officer's privilege to
carry a concealed firearm. A peace officer who is listed in Section
830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c)
of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have
his or her privilege to carry a concealed firearm denied or revoked
by having the agency from which the officer retired stamp on the
officer's identification certificate "No CCW privilege."

(3) An honorably retired peace officer who is listed in
subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 and authorized to carry concealed
firearms by this subdivision shall meet the training requirements of
Section 832 and shall qualify with the firearm at least annually. The
individual retired peace officer shall be responsible for
maintaining his or her eligibility to carry a concealed firearm. The
Department of Justice shall provide subsequent arrest notification
pursuant to Section 11105.2 regarding honorably retired peace
officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 to the agency
from which the officer has retired.

(b) The possession or transportation of unloaded pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person as merchandise by a person who is engaged in the business of
manufacturing, importing, wholesaling, repairing, or dealing in
firearms and who is licensed to engage in that business or the
authorized representative or authorized agent of that person while
engaged in the lawful course of the business.

(c) Members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Marine
Corps of the United States, or the National Guard, when on duty, or
organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive
those weapons from the United States or this state.

(d) The carrying of unloaded pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person by duly authorized
military or civil organizations while parading, or the members
thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their
respective organizations.

(e) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.

(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

(h) Transportation of unloaded firearms by a person operating a
licensed common carrier or an authorized agent or employee thereof
when transported in conformance with applicable federal law.

(i) Upon approval of the sheriff of the county in which they
reside, honorably retired federal officers or agents of federal law
enforcement agencies, including, but not limited to, the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, the United States
Customs Service, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
Firearms, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the Drug Enforcement
Administration, the United States Border Patrol, and officers or
agents of the Internal Revenue Service who were authorized to carry
weapons while on duty, who were assigned to duty within the state for
a period of not less than one year, or who retired from active
service in the state.

Retired federal officers or agents shall provide the sheriff with
certification from the agency from which they retired certifying
their service in the state, the nature of their retirement, and
indicating the agency's concurrence that the retired federal officer
or agent should be accorded the privilege of carrying a concealed
firearm.

Upon that approval, the sheriff shall issue a permit to the
retired federal officer or agent indicating that he or she may carry
a concealed firearm in accordance with this subdivision. The permit
shall be valid for a period not exceeding five years, shall be
carried by the retiree while carrying a concealed firearm, and may be
revoked for good cause.

The sheriff of the county in which the retired federal officer or
agent resides may require recertification prior to a permit renewal,
and may suspend the privilege for cause. The sheriff may charge a fee
necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the county.

(j) The carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to
carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3
(commencing with Section 12050).



12027.1. (a) (1) (A) (i) Any peace officer employed by an agency
and listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2 or subdivision (c) of Section
830.5 who retired after January 1, 1981, shall have an endorsement on
the identification certificate stating that the issuing agency
approves the officer's carrying of a concealed and loaded firearm.

(ii) Any peace officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2 or
subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1,
1981, is authorized to carry a concealed and loaded firearm if the
agency issued the officer an identification certificate and the
certificate has not been stamped as specified in paragraph (2) of
subdivision (a) of Section 12027.

(iii) Peace officers not listed in clause (i) or (ii) who were
authorized to, and did, carry firearms during the course and scope of
their employment as peace officers, shall have an endorsement on the
identification certificate stating that the issuing agency approves
the officer's carrying of a concealed and loaded firearm.

(B) An identification certificate authorizing the officer to carry
a concealed and loaded firearm or an endorsement on the certificate
may be permanently revoked or denied by the issuing agency only upon
a showing of good cause. Good cause shall be determined at a hearing,
as specified in subdivision (d).

(C) An identification certificate authorizing the officer to carry
a concealed and loaded firearm or an endorsement on the certificate
may be immediately and temporarily revoked by the issuing agency when
the conduct of a retired peace officer compromises public safety.
Notice of this temporary revocation shall be effective upon personal
service or upon receipt of the notice that was sent by first-class
mail, postage prepaid, return receipt requested, to the retiree's
last known place of residence. The retiree shall have 15 days to
respond to the notification and request a hearing to determine if the
temporary revocation should become permanent. A retired peace
officer who fails to respond to the notice of hearing within the
15-day period shall forfeit his or her right to a hearing and the
authority of the officer to carry a firearm shall be permanently
revoked. The retired officer shall immediately return the
identification certificate to the issuing agency. If a hearing is
requested, good cause for permanent revocation shall be determined at
the hearing, as specified in subdivision (d). The hearing shall be
held no later than 120 days after the request by the retired officer
for a hearing is received. The retiree may waive his or her right to
a hearing and immediately return the identification to the issuing
agency.

(2) A retired peace officer may have his or her privilege to carry
a concealed and loaded firearm revoked or denied by violating any
departmental rule, or state or federal law that, if violated by an
officer on active duty, would result in that officer's arrest,
suspension, or removal from the agency.

(b) (1) An identification certificate authorizing the officer to
carry a concealed and loaded firearm or an endorsement may be
permanently revoked or denied by the issuing agency only upon a
showing of good cause. Good cause shall be determined at a hearing,
as specified in subdivision (d).

(2) An identification certificate authorizing the officer to carry
a concealed and loaded firearm or an endorsement may be permanently
revoked only after a hearing, as specified in subdivision (d). Any
retired peace officer whose identification certificate authorizing
the officer to carry a concealed and loaded firearm or an endorsement
is to be revoked shall have 15 days to respond to the notice of the
hearing. Notice of the hearing shall be served either personally on
the retiree or sent by first-class mail, postage prepaid, return
receipt requested to the retiree's last known place of residence.
From the date the retiree signs for the notice or upon the date the
notice is served personally on the retiree, the retiree shall have 15
days to respond to the notification. A retired peace officer who
fails to respond to the notice of the hearing shall forfeit his or
her right to a hearing and the authority of the officer to carry a
firearm shall be permanently revoked. The retired officer shall
immediately return the identification certificate to the issuing
agency. If a hearing is requested, good cause for permanent
revocation shall be determined at the hearing, as specified in
subdivision (d). The hearing shall be held no later than 120 days
after the request by the retired officer for a hearing is received.
The retiree may waive his or her right to a hearing and immediately
return the identification certificate to the issuing agency.

(3) Issuance of an identification certificate authorizing the
officer to carry a concealed and loaded firearm or an endorsement may
be denied prior to a hearing. If a hearing is not conducted prior to
the denial of an endorsement, a retired peace officer, within 15
days of the denial, shall have the right to request a hearing. A
retired peace officer who fails to request a hearing pursuant to this
paragraph shall forfeit his or her right to the hearing.

(c) A retired peace officer, when notified of the revocation of
his or her privilege to carry a concealed and loaded firearm, after
the hearing, or upon forfeiting his or her right to a hearing, shall
immediately surrender to the issuing agency his or her identification
certificate. The issuing agency shall reissue a new identification
certificate without an endorsement. However, if the peace officer
retired prior to January 1, 1981, and was at the time of his or her
retirement a peace officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2 or
subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, the issuing agency shall stamp on
the identification certificate "No CCW privilege."

(d) Any hearing conducted under this section shall be held before
a three-member hearing board. One member of the board shall be
selected by the agency and one member shall be selected by the
retired peace officer or his or her employee organization. The third
member shall be selected jointly by the agency and the retired peace
officer or his or her employee organization.

Any decision by the board shall be binding on the agency and the
retired peace officer.

(e) No peace officer who is retired after January 1, 1989, because
of a psychological disability shall be issued an endorsement to
carry a concealed and loaded firearm pursuant to this section.


Additionally, I point out that this information as published in the FOP bulletin dated: 3 Nov 2010, concerning CCW under LEOSA by retired peace officers:



In addition to carrying the photographic identification issued by the agency for which they were
employed or were separated, the qualified retired law enforcement officer must also carry documentation which certifies that they have met, within the most recent twelve month period, the active duty law enforcement standards for qualification for a firearm of the same type as the
one they intend to carry.

The standard the qualified retired law enforcement officer must meet is that of his former
agency, that of the State in which he resides, or in the absence of State standards—or the
recognition thereof—the standards of any law enforcement agency in the State in which the
qualified retired law enforcement officer and the certified firearms instructor resides.

This document which certifies that the qualified retired law enforcement officer has met the standards described above must be issued by the retired officer’s former agency, by the State in which he lives, or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms
qualification test for active duty officers within that State.

Retired CA Peace Officers who qualify have an RETIRED identification card that contains a statement that the individual meets the qualifications of Penal Code Section 12027 and is authorized to carry a concealed weapon.

1911user
12-30-2010, 08:33 PM
Carry your ID.......................& Badge

Badge not required under LEOSA only PHOTO ID, but I'd never carry my firearm without my shield (we don't call em badges in NY).

1911user
12-30-2010, 08:43 PM
There are retired offficers who are ineligible to carry off-duty: retired less than 10 years, medical retirement for psychiatric reasons, voluntary retirement prior to firing or filing of criminal charges. Here in Calif. it is up to the Sheriff or Chief of Police to authorize a retiree to have a CCW. We have to pass the Departments course of fire to get the CCW otherwise we are in violation of the law. My retired card states "CCW Authorized". If we want HR218 status our ID card states we meet the HR 218 requirements.
As far as what is "covered". Don't you think our former agency that issues a CCW will be named in a lawsuit some mopes family files after we legitimately 10x him defending ourselves? California PORAC offers LDF coverage. If we are involved in a shooting we get a free lawyer from beginning to end. I think the cost is $48/year.
This is ripe for litigation. FEDERAL LAW trumps STATE law in this regard...EVEN IN CALIFORNIA. So, if any of you are looking for a nice payday (most of us aren't) and only have a retired photo ID and get caught carrying concealed...been qualified to your states standard by a certified instructor and have proof AND they arrest you...Prepare for the lawsuit and your move to Bel-Aire afterwards.

Like I said in earlier posts, this is (Understanding LEOSA by agency's) gonna take time. I think this last amendment to LEOSA won't be the last one we see.

1911user
12-30-2010, 08:51 PM
"Retired CA Peace Officers who qualify have an RETIRED identification card that contains a statement that the individual meets the qualifications of Penal Code Section 12027 and is authorized to carry a concealed weapon"

Yes, please see my other post. That is all well and good, but it is not required. WHY, because the FED statue only requires a PHOTO ID. All the nice state stuff is nice, BUT NOT REQUIRED. If it didn't have it YOU WOULD STILL BE LEGAL as long as you had a current qualification as outlined in your post. Either by the agency or a QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, to your states standard.

Iowa #1603
12-30-2010, 09:06 PM
Badge not required under LEOSA only PHOTO ID, but I'd never carry my firearm without my shield (we don't call em badges in NY).

Which is exactly why I wrote my answer the way I did.

SgtCHP
12-31-2010, 12:31 AM
"Retired CA Peace Officers who qualify have an RETIRED identification card that contains a statement that the individual meets the qualifications of Penal Code Section 12027 and is authorized to carry a concealed weapon"

Yes, please see my other post. That is all well and good, but it is not required. WHY, because the FED statue only requires a PHOTO ID. All the nice state stuff is nice, BUT NOT REQUIRED. If it didn't have it YOU WOULD STILL BE LEGAL as long as you had a current qualification as outlined in your post. Either by the agency or a QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, to your states standard.

1911user......without the endorsement for a retired CA LEO on the ID card, no agency in CA will issue a current firearms qualification card! You should understand, I am addressing CA LEOs who have retired from service with the minimum 10 years and are authorized CCW under the section posted above. No amount of your arguement will supercede CA law because the requirements must meet the standards of LEOSA which stipulates the individual must meet the requirements of his previous agency.



The standard the qualified retired law enforcement officer must meet is that of his former
agency, that of the State in which he resides, or in the absence of State standards—or the
recognition thereof—the standards of any law enforcement agency in the State in which the
qualified retired law enforcement officer and the certified firearms instructor resides.


All other options are available if the agency DOES NOT set standards. All agencies in CA do set standards under CA P.O.S.T. and the penal code.

1911user
12-31-2010, 09:33 AM
Sarge, I understand. What I'm trying to get across is..putting it another way...If you retired and didn't get the super dupa retired Cali only LE CCW sign ID for whatever reason, had only a retired ID (no firearms) and did not have any of the disqualifiers...You would be good to go, with proper certification from an outside QUALIFIED instructor. So, if a dept wanted to screw you around by not giving you the signoff (for whatever reason) you still have a mechanisum to carry leagally under LEOSA.

In NYS we get pistol permits when we retire (not needed while active), seperate from our retired ID card. In NYS the permit allows you to own (purchase and dispose) of handguns. Technically under LEOSA you wouldn't need to have it, but I have not heard of one retiree yet refusing to get one anywhere in NYS. It would be cause for an immediate test case. So, NY is similar to Cali in this regard.

vincelli
12-31-2010, 11:57 AM
This is ripe for litigation. FEDERAL LAW trumps STATE law in this regard...EVEN IN CALIFORNIA. So, if any of you are looking for a nice payday (most of us aren't) and only have a retired photo ID and get caught carrying concealed...been qualified to your states standard by a certified instructor and have proof AND they arrest you...Prepare for the lawsuit and your move to Bel-Aire afterwards.

Like I said in earlier posts, this is (Understanding LEOSA by agency's) gonna take time. I think this last amendment to LEOSA won't be the last one we see.

Unfortunately, the lawsuit won't fly. It's already been legally established that LEOSA is an Affirmative Defense, but not a bar to being charged.

Don't get me wrong, wish it were a complete bar.

-V

DAL
12-31-2010, 12:31 PM
I also would not expect an enormous damage award for a police officer who was wrongly arrested for carrying a weapon. Courts and juries would be unlikely to think that someone who was gone through the police academy and arrested hundreds of people would be all that traumatized by being arrested.

SgtCHP
12-31-2010, 04:44 PM
Sarge, I understand. What I'm trying to get across is..putting it another way...If you retired and didn't get the super dupa retired Cali only LE CCW sign ID for whatever reason, had only a retired ID (no firearms) and did not have any of the disqualifiers...You would be good to go, with proper certification from an outside QUALIFIED instructor. So, if a dept wanted to screw you around by not giving you the signoff (for whatever reason) you still have a mechanisum to carry leagally under LEOSA.

In NYS we get pistol permits when we retire (not needed while active), seperate from our retired ID card. In NYS the permit allows you to own (purchase and dispose) of handguns. Technically under LEOSA you wouldn't need to have it, but I have not heard of one retiree yet refusing to get one anywhere in NYS. It would be cause for an immediate test case. So, NY is similar to Cali in this regard.

Unfortunately, you are mistaken. Let me put it this way: If you retire from the California Highway Patrol and wish to obtain a LEOSA firearms certificate to CCW out of state you must have the endorsement on your ID card from the CHP. Additionally, your firearms qualification certificate MUST be issued by the CHP. You cannot use an outside source, period. All other agencies, to my knowledge, in CA are the same. Some may authorize their retirees to utilize an outside source, but their retirees are restricted to those sources only. I reiterate: You cannot go to any firing range in CA, shoot for qualification, and receive the proper certificate from your former agency. The certification MUST be issued by your former agency in CA.

All of that aside, I know of no officer in CA who is going to be concerned that much about whether or not you have the certificate as long as you are carrying your department issued, retired, ID card. That applies to CA or out of state retirees.

kc12
12-31-2010, 06:10 PM
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. Let me put it this way: If you retire from the California Highway Patrol and wish to obtain a LEOSA firearms certificate to CCW out of state you must have the endorsement on your ID card from the CHP. Additionally, your firearms qualification certificate MUST be issued by the CHP. You cannot use an outside source, period. All other agencies, to my knowledge, in CA are the same. Some may authorize their retirees to utilize an outside source, but their retirees are restricted to those sources only. I reiterate: You cannot go to any firing range in CA, shoot for qualification, and receive the proper certificate from your former agency. The certification MUST be issued by your former agency in CA.

I think this is again where the agencies attempt to restrict what officers do off duty. LEOSA only requires the carriage of the retired ID and the yearly firearm qualification. LEOSA does not stipulate that the person conducting the qualification be employed by your former agency or that your former agency perform the qualification. I have no doubt that your agency does this, after all you would know what they do. Just a stupid question. What if you moved to Nevada after you retired? You would be retired CHP but you would have to be qualified in Nevada to carry your firearm. If you go back into Kalifornia, for vacation you would not qualify to carry according to their policies, because you would be unable to obtain the appropriate certifications from CHP because you failed to qualify using on e of their instructors.

1911user
12-31-2010, 06:22 PM
I think this is again where the agencies attempt to restrict what officers do off duty. LEOSA only requires the carriage of the retired ID and the yearly firearm qualification. LEOSA does not stipulate that the person conducting the qualification be employed by your former agency or that your former agency perform the qualification. I have no doubt that your agency does this, after all you would know what they do. Just a stupid question. What if you moved to Nevada after you retired? You would be retired CHP but you would have to be qualified in Nevada to carry your firearm. If you go back into Kalifornia, for vacation you would not qualify to carry according to their policies, because you would be unable to obtain the appropriate certifications from CHP because you failed to qualify using on e of their instructors.

+1000 Great Example kc12.

1911user
12-31-2010, 06:28 PM
Unfortunately, the lawsuit won't fly. It's already been legally established that LEOSA is an Affirmative Defense, but not a bar to being charged.

Don't get me wrong, wish it were a complete bar.

-V

Not saying it is a complete bar or that you wouldn't be arrested. Whether they handle it administratively by taking you firearms or arrest you, there will be a lawsuit...and the odds are with you. There is already some case law on this. To date there have been 26 LEOSA cases. All have been in our (LEOs) favor.

SgtCHP
12-31-2010, 07:55 PM
What if you moved to Nevada after you retired? You would be retired CHP but you would have to be qualified in Nevada to carry your firearm. If you go back into Kalifornia, for vacation you would not qualify to carry according to their policies, because you would be unable to obtain the appropriate certifications from CHP because you failed to qualify using on e of their instructors.

Good question! And, you may continue with varying scenarios as much as you wish, so to address your query, the answer lies within the prescribed LEOSA rules:



The standard the qualified retired law enforcement officer must meet is that of his former
agency, that of the State in which he resides, or in the absence of State standards—or the recognition thereof—the standards of any law enforcement agency in the State in which the
qualified retired law enforcement officer and the certified firearms instructor resides.

The second requirement applies; or, perhaps, the third. However, if one remains within CA and is retired from the CHP, one must obtain their permit from the agency as required under the first requirement. If I were to move to NE, then I would have to apply to the local agency, local SO or State Patrol for the certificate and qualify under their specific standards. That verification would then be forwarded to my former agency.

RoadKingTrooper
12-31-2010, 08:24 PM
My latest ID card states
"THIS COLORADO STATE TROOPER POSSESSES STATUTORY POWERS OF ARREST AND MAY CARRY CONCEALED FIREARMS PURSUANT TO DEPARTMENT POLICY. COLORADO STATE AND FEDERAL LAW (16-2.5-101,CRS 18USC926B) THIS TROOPER IS PROPERLY QUALIFIED IN THE USE OF FIREARMS AND IS CURRENTLY NOT SUBJECT TO ANY DISCIPLINARY ACTION BY THE COLORADO STATE PATROL"

There is no expiration date on it, and contains an old photo of me LOL and Retired Technician on the face

Yearly qualification is mandatory, but I can shoot at any of the ranges our guys use. Once qualified, I am issued a card which states "This card identifies the bearer as a qualifying former Peace Officer and complying with requirements of the U.S. Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004"


CCW courses are through the Sheriff's office, where I am fingerprinted and mandated to attend a training course. The fees associated with this usually run $100 for fingerprinting and background check and $75 for the class.

What gets my goat about the latter is that I was once an NRA certified Police Firearms Instructor:confused:

Also DOW requires me to sit through one of their classes on gun safety prior to issuing me a hunter safety card:rolleyes:

kc12
01-01-2011, 08:25 AM
The second requirement applies; or, perhaps, the third. However, if one remains within CA and is retired from the CHP, one must obtain their permit from the agency as required under the first requirement. If I were to move to NE, then I would have to apply to the local agency, local SO or State Patrol for the certificate and qualify under their specific standards. That verification would then be forwarded to my former agency.

I see. Where did that rule come from? It's not written in the law. Did a case go to court and that is what they ruled? The law only stipulates that the person must be certified to state standards.

Something I found interesting for the retired feds, is they must go to a local agency to get certified. They can not be certified by a firearms instructor working for the feds.


EDITED to ADD: Never mind. I found it in the amendments recently passed. The change also makes feds able to certify retired feds.