Martial Arts

[Stryfe]

I just started this topic cause Monty was talking about Chinese Martial Arts in another topic, and I wanted to hear more about it. If anyone else wanted to comment on their favourite, what works well pertaining to law enforcement, etc. please do.

What exactly do you practice Monty? Tai Chi? Kung Fu?

[Stryfe]

Or you could just ignore me.

I tried some of the more aggresive styles of Tai Chi, but I still found it a little too lacking in power, and couldn't keep interested. I've never tried Kung Fu, but am interested to try it.

Just generally, as an officer, you learn a basic form of self-defense don't you?

[CaptSchmooze]

Stryfe,
Sorry, I missed your first posting. I have dabbled in several arts, the best for me was a Japanese style. It was basically Shotokan and some Jujitsu.

The best thing to do is to find an art that fits you best. Different body types are better suited for certain arts.
When I was young I could kick to the sky, now I can kick to the thigh. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif
Often times it is more important that the instructor is a skilled instructor than what the art is.

The dept teaches some stuff, but to really use it effectively requires training outside of the confines of the dept.

When I say martial arts, I include wrestling, boxing and anything else that is a fighting art.
Most fights in law enforcement end up on the ground, ok about 90% of them, so ground fighting is a very important skill.

Hope this makes some sense,
Mikey


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Tights and a cape, the true uniform of a crime fighter.

[Niteshift]

Actually, Monty has not posted for several days and probably has not been here since you asked the question.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Stryfe]

Yeh, I've found that in order to be effective, its best to learn several styles. I learned some jujitsu and judo for highschool wrestling. I was pretty good, but in a terrible weight class. I learned how to box for hockey. I am not flexible, but I take Tae Kwon Do to increase my kicking ability, I'm trying to get into kickboxing, so I'm learning about Savate. I also know some Krav Maga, and Silat, but not with great skill.

[Stryfe]

Oh, thanks Niteshift, I didn't really take offense, I jsut thought a few more posts might his/general attention.

[KenM]

My dept teaches basic movements and empty hand defenses in the art of Kempo to go along with the PPCT system's principles. After our semi-annual training days you're bruised, battered and sore but it's worth it. I guess we're pretty lucky to have it. After our instructors retire I'm not sure what direction the dept will take. You can bet money they won't PAY to send us to their schools!

Here's a link to one of our instructor's school.
http://www.kungfu.cc/mask/

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"Trust me. I'm from the government, I'm here to help."

[Susan McQuay]

BOLO*BOLO*BOLO: Monty, Stryfe is looking for ya.

[awf]

I have been in Shotokan and some Jujitsu and Golden Gloves. But in my job in law enforcement I would have to agree that 90% of the time fights end up on the ground. So I would say that almost any martial art you should decide on should include a lot of ground fighting and control tequniques if you want to learn it for a Law Enforcement application. In 7 yrs. of being a Police Officer on the street I could probably count on one hand how many fights did not end up on the ground. Also any style that teaches the art of fighting with Tonfa weapons would be good as you could apply that to PR 24 or side handle baton use. Hope this helps. I'm not trying to put down anybody elses styles. Good instructors are a must as they will adapt their style to your strengths and weaknesses. I am a small person, not a weightlifter so I have to be fast and have the ability to endure long struggles if I don't get an upperhand fast. Good Luck.

[CaptSchmooze]

Oh and my favorite stand-up fighting style is Mui Thai. I just love holding people and using knee strikes. hehe http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Mikey

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Tights and a cape, the true uniform of a crime fighter.

[Monty Ealerman]

Stryfe:

First, I'm not a police officer; just a volunteer.

Second, Niteshift is right that I had not seen your post on this topic yet.

On to your inquiries:

I am not a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan, although I have worked with practitioners of the Yang, Wu, and Sun family versions.

The principles involved are similar in some ways to those of other Chinese martial arts; however, there are readily observable differences between the arts of the Wu-Dong Mountain region, and the Shao-Lin arts, both of which are contributors to Tai Chi.

I practice primarily Northern Shaolin arts, in particular the Seven Star Praying Mantis Style, which is characterized by very low stances, extremely close range hand techniques, and strong kicks. The style has many traditional forms incorporating various martial techniques, and as we have encountered it in the 20th century US, a heritage that not only includes the ancient Shaolin monastic fighting practices, but also is informed by the street combat experiences of the Hong Kong triads.

Some of its kicking techniques are similar to the fouettes of Boxe Francaise Savate, which you mentioned. Seven Star Praying Mantis Boxing has high kicks that are practiced for training purposes, and appear in some of the forms, but are rarely used in actual combat.

I agree with those who stressed the importance of ground based fighting skills and grappling. Percussive techniques are usually not the best for getting a person into handcuffs, although strikes are often the best techniques available to overcome resistance.

Even though ground fighting is important, it is necessary for a complete martial art to include more than that. Especially if you are alone, you can't afford to choke someone out for 5 or 10 minutes while his buddy is rocking the back of your head. The stand up martial techniques are often necessary if there are multiple opponents.

I'm sure you'll see that the next time you and 4 of your buddies have to tangle with 25 kids. http://www.officer.com/ubb/wink.gif

Also, if there are knives involved, many ground fighting techniques will not work. To recognize this, you can consider the mount and guard positions that typically occur in
grappling competitions. Neither of these is effective against an opponent with a knife.

A person in the guard position can easily stab the flank and leg of his opponent, and with a little maneuvering, can reach the head and neck, or the femoral artery. A person in the mount position armed with a knife can easily stab through the subclavian artery of his opponent, for example, or attack his head and neck.

I do not advocate fighting at all against a person armed with a knife, especially when you are not armed even with a baton. Empty hand knife defense techniques should not be relied upon unless there is no other choice. It's almost always better to run away, allow a robbery, or use a weapon yourself, than to risk the extremely serious injuries that can so easily be inflicted even by an unskilled person armed with a knife.

Only a person with extreme skill in excess of that of his opponent should be confident in using a baton agains a knife. For most police officers confronted by a person aremed with a knife, the best recourse is to take the firearm in hand.

The knife wielder is still dangerous to the gun wielder even at 10 yards or more, because those distances can be covered so quickly. If the person is a skilled knife thrower, the knife can be dangerous at even greater distances.

As for baton skills, I think the best instruction in that are is available from the practitioners of the fighting arts of the Phillipines.

Some of those arts are similar in some respects to those of Indonesia, such as Pentjak Silat, which you mentioned, and to other martial arts of the Pacific Rim.

The fighting arts of the Phillipines are variously known as Eskrima, Kali, or Arnis, or by more obscure names.

I have a great deal of respect for the Shotokan school, and for the traditional Okinawan Karate Styles. Among the Japanes Karate Style, I especailly like Kyokushinkai, which was introduced to the US by Mas Oyama, who was one of the pioneers in the effort to spread Asian martial arts to the rest of the world. Another such pioneer is Jhoon Rhee, who spread Korean fighting arts, and can still do a thousand pushups daily, despite being around 70 years old.

I like the deceptively harmless appearance of the Muay Thai fighters, who practice bone conditioning that makes their strikes seem as if they were inflicted by heavy sticks.

One thing all these martial arts have in common is discipline.

I agree with Nikon and others regarding the idea that self discipline is the first thing taught by competent and responsible teachers of martial art. To some extent, like the rest of what we learn, we have to build it into ourselves rather than simply absorb it from the teacher. But martial art instructors continually emphasize the importance of mental and physical self discipline. If you're having trouble with that, then you know which part of your martial art development should get the most attention from you right now.

Regards,

Monty

[Stryfe]

I practiced a lot of the ground fighting in wrestling. The Tai Kwon Do I'm learning is a bastardized version, combining aekido(sp?), submission moves, and elements of tonfu, escrima, bo, and katana. I also took fencing for a few years, so I'm a fairly well rounded fighter.

I've only been in one fight were the opponent had a knife, he tried to mug me. Luckily he was intoxicated, and wasn't much of a threat.

I've never learned the Japanese fighting styles, my friend keeps bugging me to let him teach me Okinawan, but I don't have time.

I think the best martial art for realistic fighting is hockey http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif You can train all you want, but nothing trains you for the real thing like 50 punches to the head in a two minute fight. Not much ground fighting involved though, but thats what wrestling is for.

[CaptSchmooze]

Hockey is a martial art, sorry I forgot to mention that before. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Schmooze

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Tights and a cape, the true uniform of a crime fighter.

[Monty Ealerman]

Stryfe:

The fighting techniques of hockey players are wonderfully ineffective, apparently intentionally. It's sport fighting. If they were seriously fighting, they would make more effective use of their sticks, and of the blades on their feet. As it is, they usually just grab the clothing of the opposing player, and then they use relatively isolated arm motion punches in rapid succession.

Tae Kwon Do is a Korean martial art term, referring to a kicking and punching art.

Of the other terms you listed, only 2 are martial arts. Aikido is a martial art founded by Morihei Uyeshiba (known affectionately as "O-Sensei"), who had formerly been a practitioner of various styles of Japanese empty hand and sword fighting arts, and eskrima is, as I mentioned before, a stick, hand, and knife fighting martial art system of the Phillipines.

The terms tonfa, bo, and katana refer not to martial arts themseleves, but to martial art weapons: a mallet, a staff, and a sword. The tonfa is a thick, short stick with a handle sticking sideways about a third of the way up.

I'm glad you weren't injured by the person with the knife, but I urgently suggest that you not underestimate the formidability of a knife wielder, no matter how intoxicated he might be.

I think it is usually best for persons who are learning martial art to become proficient in a single style before branching out into other styles, and to allow the teacher to set the standard of proficiency. Doing it any other way risks learning things poorly.

Regarding your few years of fencing, a few questions: which weapons did you practice, which do you prefer, and why, and what can you say about the applicability of the terminology and techniques to martial art in general?

Regards,

Monty

[Niteshift]

"The terms tonfa, bo, and katana refer not to martial arts themseleves, but to martial art weapons: a mallet, a staff, and a sword."

However, there are seperate martial arts dedicated to the bo and the katana. Maybe that's what he meant.

He did mention Tae Kwon Do, which is a seperate art.
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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna



[This message has been edited by Niteshift (edited 11-14-2000).]

[Stryfe]

Hockey fighting is highly effective, but it is limited. The idea is not to kill the oppenent, merely humiliate him. The reason they grab clothing is to attempt to hinder the others movements. The limited arm movements is strategy, you want to keep the oppenent in close to prevent them from throwing the knockout punch.

Aikido is my second favourite, I like Krav Maga more, but its a close second. Its basic idea is using the oppenents strength against him, and can be devastating when used correctly. It is particularily effective when used against a boxer or wrestler who doesn't see it coming.

I learned tonfa, bo, katana, and some other weapons, they have a style all to themselves, but I learned it combining the moves with the punches and kicks of Tae Kwon Do.

As for fencing, I learned foil, epee, and sabre. I far prefer Sabre, it is a slashing weapon as well as stabbing. It is faster, and far more aggresive. The movement is the same, basically an extremely low side stance, but is drilled into you far more effectively than in the martial arts. I would spend a three hour practice jsut moving back and forth. Soemtimes I would not even touch the weapon, and it makes movement in most martial arts simplistic in comparison. Its faster, the sabre can move far faster than any punch or kick, so it trains the reflexes as well.

[PPB8881]

I've messed around with a little kungfu
and some pancrate here and there but my favorite is the good ole american chokeslam.

But that's just my style. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


PPB

[Wannabe2000]

**I must always preface this by saying I am 18 years old and not a cop yet**

I highly recommend studying Jeet Kune Do. It was invented originally by Bruce Lee. It combines all martial arts including wrestling. I have a book on the basic trapping and grappling techniques used in it. It uses punching, kicking, and upper body throws to allow you to get your opponent into a position where you can use a pain compliance technique on him or a chokehold.

[C_RAT]

Currently I pratice Kenpo, but have trained in TKD, Shotokan and Bujinkan Taijutsu. I've found my taijutsu training woould most apply to law enforcement (I would like to point out that I'm not a cop, although I've worked in the security business). Kenpo tends to rely too much on what I call 'violent overkill' in subdueing an attacker. Which in this day and age results in lawsuits.

[GDenman]

I studied in the House of Pudgy. He is a cousin who learned some style of martial arts while stationed in Japan & the Phillipines. When he returned home & married, I mowed his lawn in exchange for lessons.

They don't teach any "martial arts" in our academy, just "self-defense" techniques. Ground fighting is a big part of it.

I have used a few techniques on the street but usually wind up just street fighting or using whatever is handy when all hell breaks loose.

[Don]

I studied in the house of street fighting. Got my AHBK Degree (*** Has Been Kicked) several times! http://www.officer.com/ubb/frown.gif

IMHO the academy teaches you just enough to get you killed when you come up against some of the better trained individuals.
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"Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". . . Judge Judy
6P1 (retired)

[This message has been edited by Don (edited 11-16-2000).]

[Stryfe]

Thats why I like Krav Maga, the entire idea is to take out the oppenent quickly and fatally, using whatever means necessary. People don't like this one, complaining that things like eye-gougeing or groin kicking are "cheap" I fight to win.

One of the main parts of Silat is the ability to use anything as a weapon, from the obvious like a stool, to the not so obvious, like a coat. This is a good trick, but it can also help to prepare you for an attacker advancing on you with a beer bottle, or a pool cue, because you know what the attacker is likely to try.

[MacLeod]

I've been at Judo since I was 5 years old and I find that it is handy for Police work, you can take somebody down without hitting them and restrain them long enough to get the cuffs on. Great as long as they are not armed.

I also fence, I am the Sabre coach at the local Uni. It's great but I don't see that it has much bearing on police work.

For a short time I studied Toka Guri Ryu Ninjitsu ( not sure of the spelling)

It was great, a lot a strikes, kicks locks and throws. It also provides weapons training, Katana, bo, etc.

Above all they keep you fit. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Monty Ealerman]

Stryfe:

Thanks for the answers about fencing. A little more about the self-control issue:
it's not the formidability of a person that makes him someone to be feared; it's the harmful intent, or lack of self-control, either of which can result in harm to others, especially if the person has martial skill. That's why some persons who are world class martial art experts are not feared by anyone who is not himself intent on harming someone, while others who are mere dilletantes are feared by almost everyone, including experts. And that's why the experts teach, exemplify, and insist that a person must diligently develop and ardently maintain self control, all the time, every time.

Regards,

Monty

[Stryfe]

I think the fear thing is a direct result of the kids mentioned in the other topic witness me fighting in hockey. I went undefeated for most of the season, I shattered an oppenents face at a home game, and gave several concussions. I have a reputation for being tough, not for being a maniac, and not for being a master at any martial art.

[Niteshift]

I found your last post very interesting stryfe.

"I went undefeated for most of the season..."

Last time I checked, hockey was a team sport, so I have to assume that you are talking about being undefeated in fights? Funny, I watch a little hockey on TV and go to a game a couple of times a year. None of those fights ever seem to have a "winner".

"I shattered an oppenents face at a home game, and gave several concussions."

Bragging? The more you talk stryfe, the more concerned I am about you. Have you ever considered anger management courses or professional counseling?

"...I have a reputation for being tough, not for being a maniac."

A "shattered face" and "several" concussions, but you're not a maniac?


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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Stryfe]

Yeah, I'm talking about fights. I am/was an enforcer, I stopped playing junior, and i'm in a non-contact industrial league now. i went 22-2 last season, I only lost 2 at the very end of playoffs. I wasn't bragging, it was a brutal fight, one of my first punches broke his jaw, and a latter one broke his cheekbone. Yeah, over the entire season, I gave 7 concussions, but not all were from fighting.

NHL Fights are a little more subdued, they break the fights up after a few minutes. A fight almost always only involves two people. And its almost always one enforcer versus another. The fighters aren't trying to kill each other, and they aren't gonna end each others careers. That can happen, but more often from body contact or when grudges develop. But you have to earn being able to take it easy like that.

You can tell who won by # of punches thrown, whos blood is on the ice, and the penalty given to the combatants. In the NHL its even, but in my league if you won, you paid for it with an "aggresor" penalty.

I don't need counselling. I'm not a great scorer, I don't skate like the wind. My job was to protect the valuable assets on the team.

[phuzz01]

I just want to add a few words about wrestling and ground fighting/grappling in karate..I practiced shotokan karate for eight years, although I only focused on ground fighting and grappling for the last 3. I am now in my eighth year of wrestling (2nd year of intercollegiate wrestling).
I personally found that wrestling and ground fighting are vastly different, and in many ways compete with each other. One of the very first things you learn in ground fighting is that if you get knocked to the ground, you do not want to go to your stomach (you'll get choked in about half a second). Obviously, in wrestling, you want to avoid going to your back at all costs. Wrestling moves are meant to compel your opponent to the ground or to his back. While technique is the most important aspect of wrestling, brute strength and endurance are also necessities. Ground fighting moves are much more focused on inflicting pain and controlling particular parts of the body rather than the entire body. Anyway, im having a hard time describing exactly what I mean, but I think anybody that has both wrestled and learned ground fighting techniques will at least know what I'm talking about, even if they disagree with me.
Actually, I got so mixed up going back and forth between wrestling and karate, I eventually quit learning karate.

[Niteshift]

Actually, the games I attend aren't NHL. Some are minor league, some amatuer. Maybe since I'm not a big hockey fan, I just don't understand, but it sounds to me like breaking a guys jaw (then continuing to punch him) is not what they had in mind when they invented rules for the game. I could be wrong, but it sounds to me that you enjoy the idea of causing real injury to people a little too much.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Stryfe]

If you are still being punched, you keep punching. Impossible to know how much damage is done until after. No I actually don't enjoy fighting. I like to spar and practice, but I find the thought of hurting another person distasteful.

I agree with you phuzz, obviously in a real fight lying on your stomach is not a brilliant move. But wrestling takedowns, throws and escapes work well. The trick is to blend it. Unfourtunatly, not many instructors appreciate a student bastardizing their art.

[Niteshift]

Now I'm confused Stryfe. How can you say:
"one of my first punches broke his jaw, and a latter one broke his cheekbone."

and then say:

"Impossible to know how much damage is done until after." http://www.officer.com/ubb/confused.gif

"No I actually don't enjoy fighting."

For a guy that doesn't enjoy it, you sure spend a lot of time telling about how good you are at it and how often you do it. http://www.officer.com/ubb/confused.gif

"I find the thought of hurting another person distasteful."

For a guy that doesn't enjoy it, you sure spend a lot of time telling about how good you are at it and how often you do it. http://www.officer.com/ubb/confused.gif



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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Stryfe]

Where is the confusion? I punched him in the jaw first, that was the only real haymaker. After the fight I learned he had a broken jaw and a broken cheekbone. Jaw must have broken first, as that was the only uppercut thrown. It is almost imposibble to tell what is broken during the fight, even if it is yourself. You worry about damage when its over. Kind of hard to call a timeout to check and see how the other guys doing you know?

No, I really don't like hurting people. I'm not a sadist. Yes, I have been in a lot of fights. I was a fat little kid, and I got picked on for a long time till I learned to fight back. You guys asked why the kids were afraid, so I tell. You ask me to elaborate, so I do. I'm not bragging, I'm being honest, and if I sound proud, I'm not. I quit that league specifically because I was being sent out to fight and I didn't like it.

[Monty Ealerman]

Stryfe:

From what you've posted, it's clear that you are at best too complacent about doing damgage to others. Perhaps you don't like it, as you've said, but you're not at all sufficiently reluctant to do it, as far as I and others here can tell.

Smashing someone's face is a horrible thing to do. If you do it because it's necessary, I don't think you should feel guilty about it, but it's still important to recognize the magnitude of what you're doing.

It's possible to punch someone 40 or 50 times, without stopping him from continuing to attack you, and it's also possible to punch someone once, and knock him down so that he hits his head, breaks his skull, and dies immediately.

We don't know what's going to happen in a fight. That's why it's so important to ensure that we've exhausted all the safer means of handling a conflict before getting into a fight.

A concussion means that the brain was jarred so hard that it collided with the skull, displacing the layer of fluid that normally is between the brain and the skull. Such an impact can cause brain damage or death.

You've said that not all the concussions you've inflicted were from fighting, but how it was inflicted doesn't necessarily mean the injury was not your fault.

If you inflict 7 concussions in a season, you're taking a fairly serious risk that some serious damage will result, and that you will be held responsible for it. The fact that you were playing hockey may not be a sufficient defense in a prosecution.

If you smash someone's face during a hockey match, you may be viewed as defending yourself using reasonable force, but you may instead be viewed as having committed an aggravated battery.

If you don't follow the advice of Niteshift to get some counselling, which advice I heartily second, you are at risk of becoming a violent criminal, and doing time for it.

You also risk getting injured or killed yourself. No-one is invincible or invulnerable.

Also, you might do a severe damage to someone else, which you've indicated you would rather not do.

Learning effective ways to handle conflict may help you to avoid inflicting injury.

Sincerely,

Monty

[dkiefner]

Nicely put, Monty. Minimum necessary force is something Stryfe needs to learn.

[Stryfe]

I don't need counselling! You make me sound like the guy from Con Air, or Hannbial Lecter or something. 7 concussions, some were from fighting, some of them were from body contact, and one or two was from roughing penalties. I see your point about the aggravated battery, with McSorley setting the precedent. However, I know no matter how badly I might have been hurt, I'm not going to press charges for a hockey incident. I might look for an opening next game for the big open ice hit, but you keep it amongst your self. Hockey Sub-culture.

If you are trying to knock out your oppenent, and you only have two minutes to do it in, whats minimum force? Hes not going to shake hands amd go the other way. He wants to get drafted, and he has a job to do too. Should a boxer use minimum force? Same thing, the fights bring in the crowds.

Most concussions I've seen are caused by a punch that knocks the oppenent backwards, or an open ice hit that sends him up in the air. The result of both is the head impacting hard upon the ice. Guess the ice should learn to use minimum force.

[dkiefner]

Stryfe writes
>>>If you are trying to knock out your oppenent, and you only have two minutes to do it in, whats minimum force?<<<

QED

[Niteshift]

I don;t think it's the fact that you gave the concussions that indicate a need for counseling.

I think it's how you keep track of them and roll them out like a resume that indicates it.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Monty Ealerman]

Dave:

Thanks. You put things so much more succinctly than I do.

Stryfe:

Blaming the ice? http://www.officer.com/ubb/confused.gif Wasn't a human being responsible for causing someone's head to hit the ice?

Maybe you're right about not needing counselling. Maybe only incarceration or losing a fight would help you to learn. Still, incarceration or being beat up is even less fun than counselling, and you can be forced to attend counselling sessions by a judge as a condition of probabtion anyway, so I still think you should give the voluntary counselling a try.

Getting counselling doesn't mean you're weak or sick; it just means you're learning how to better handle some things you're not handling very well yet. What you've said here here indicates clearly that you don't handle violent impulses very well, and the consequences of you not doing so could be severe, for you and for others.

As for boxing, I assume you have heard of the Marquis of Queensbury rules governing boxing? We have more boxing rules today than before, all designed to make boxing a reasonably safe way to find out which person is the better boxer.

There are other contests with fewer rules, but all sports, even hockey, have rules designed to minimize injury.

In my opinion, you need to cultivate in yourself an internal attitude of non-injuriousness. I think you will need help to get started on that, and I think getting some counselling might give you some of the help you'll need. I think your blind spots in this area are large enough that professional counselling would be in order, but even talking the issues over with a coach or martial art instructor would be better than nothing. Why not give it a try.

Sincerely,

Monty

[FinCop]

Hi

I recommend instead of martial arts olympic style boxing. I was a teacher (trainer) and a referree in Finland in a boxing scool for children from 10 to 16 years old. This kind of "free work" is very good for an officer.

[JIBB]

This is an interesting subject. I am a police officer in the U.K. During our training we learn compliance techniques that are approved by the home office, we learn only a small set of empty hand techniques used for restraining an offender. It is not martial art based. UK police training used to teach Taijutsu and expect officers to continue learning once training school had finished however many officers did not bother and other found it a difficult system to learn and so it was dropped in favour of the UDT (unarmed defensive tactics)which is taught now.

I have trained in a number of martial arts and have an instructor status in Wing chun kung -fu, and Brithai concepts, i have also dabbled with boxing, Kali/Silat, aikido and jiu jutsu and Wado ryu karate.

In the u.k we use the minimum force necessary idea, using the force continuum concept. ie escalation of force in response to threat.

I have found the techniques taught in training school to be useless in reality and have had to rely on my martial arts background more often to stop an attack.

I think the main problem in the u.k police self defence is that it is not taught or trained realistically and many officers have a belief that the techniques they are taught will work on everyone and anyone regardless of their size, psychology or other factors.

I have seen many of my colleagues waltz straight into a large fight and get a kicking because of an unfounded belief that the 6 or 7 techniques they learnt in training school will save their backsides.

My advice to anyone is learn what you learn at training school and understand the constraints laid on us by minimum force legislation but try to learn new techniques and practice to stay sharp.


Martial arts are my main interest outside of my job and i am interested in peoples real life experiences applying systems and techniques whether martial arts or police systems or hybrid systems.

I am also interested in U.S policy to minimum force and force continuum.

[FinCop]

I am also interested in U.S policy to minimum force and force continuum.

Hi,
I am from Finland and it seems to me, that we have very similar policies to use force. What is your oppinion concerning the whole Europe. This should be about similar in every country. How is is?

[KenM]

FinCop, Here's a link to the system my dept uses. It's very popular and many agencies use it.
http://www.ppct.com/

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"Trust me. I'm from the government, I'm here to help."

[Dana]

I take Go Ju Ru (the hard soft style) and there are some great grappling techniques that we learn that are perfect for Law Enforcement. Holds, arm bars, take downs, non-lethal,temperorary ways of detaining a subject. Using these techniques leaves enough time to handcuff someone. We also learned how to safely take a gun and knife away from suspects.

[Monty Ealerman]

Dana:

Here's a link to an article about Goju-Ryu:

http://www.nserver.com/shobukan/gojuhist.html

The article explains the history of Miyagi, the founder of this Okinawan martial art.

I once met a teacher who had been taught by Gogen Yamaguchi, one of the most famous karateka of Japan, who is mentioned in the article as the founder of the Japanese school of Goju-Ryu.

The teacher told me that Yamaguchi on his deathbed was seen to be striking the air very slowly with a straight forward punch.
One of his senior students was puzzled by this, and Yamaguchi said words to the effect of "I'm finally beginning to understand front punch".

This story was told as an illustration of the concept of "beginner's mind", which basically means taking a fresh outlook, not letting the mind be clouded by the prejudices that can be built up by depth of expertise. The most learned scientists often ridicule a new idea that later turns out to have been more accurate than ridiculous.

Among the ideas that are currently popular is the notion that martial art learning can enable a person to defeat someone armed with a knife or gun.

This is not entirely untrue, in that there are world-class experts who can safely enough disarm a moderately skilled knife wielder, or gun wielder, if he's close enough.

But even a world-class knife fighting expert would probably not in a real situation use any of the disarm tactics, and would probably use an incapacitation tactic instead, because it would be much less risky.

Because of the risk issue, I am concerned
about your statement regarding disarming persons armed with guns and knives. Even an expert martial artist is at a serious disadvantage if he tries without weapons to subdue an armed attacker.

If you try some of your knife defenses at full speed against a person armed with a watercolor marker, you'll probably get marks on your arms and or shirt, which should convince you of how dangerous knives can be.

That test is not completely realistic either, so even if you can get past the marker, you still shouldn't be too confident about knives. They're just too dangerous.

Guns are dangerous from much further away. If a person armed with a gun thinks you're going to try to take the gun away from him, he can shoot at you while retreating from your reach.

It was proven definitively during the Boxer Rebellion that Asian martial arts, formidable though they may be, are no match for Springfield repeating rifles.

I am also concerned, although somewhat less so, about your remarks regarding the use of holds, locks, and similar techniques to subdue dangerous aggressors. These often do not work as well in "real life" as they do in the school. Assuming you're learning valid versions of the techniques, they're fine if the person has little or no skill; however, they can be risky to attempt, in that if you try them on a skilled fighter, they could put you at a disadvantage compared to a person without a specific agenda to subdue, and only a clear intention to not lose the fight.

I think the holds and locks are valuable to learn; however, they are often best applied after someone is is subdued, rather than in order to subdue someone.

All those techniques should be integrated into your martial art with due regard for their place in achieving the objective of self defense.

So should handcuff technique. Just as locks aren't always best applied before a strike or takedown, application of handcuffs is not always best delayed until after the opponent is subdued.

Sometimes you might get one cuff on him, and then use the other one to apply pressure to his wrist, enough to maneuver him into position for you to put the other one on him.

If the person is resisting when handcuffs are being applied, you might in some instances use them as an impact weapon. In general, however, handcuffs are best applied to the non-resisting, or to the mostly subdued.

I think martial art training is indispensable for police work, and a wonderful activity for the promotion of life and health. Even so, its efficacy for self defense should not be overestimated, and the ability of your enemy to counter your techniques should not be underestimated. If you keep in mind that it's only part of the whole picture, I think you'll benefit greatly from learning martial art while you're considering police work.

Regards,

Monty

[David Mudd]

Originally posted by Monty Ealerman:

I am also concerned, although somewhat less so, about your remarks regarding the use of holds, locks, and similar techniques to subdue dangerous aggressors. These often do not work as well in "real life" as they do in the school. Assuming you're learning valid versions of the techniques, they're fine if the person has little or no skill; however, they can be risky to attempt, in that if you try them on a skilled fighter, they could put you at a disadvantage compared to a person without a specific agenda to subdue, and only a clear intention to not lose the fight.

I think the holds and locks are valuable to learn; however, they are often best applied after someone is is subdued, rather than in order to subdue someone.

Though I understand what you are saying here Monty, I have found that the most common reason holds and locks do not work is that most officers never practice using them once they have an initial class. This holds true for PR-24 or baton use as well.
And as for applying them once the subject is subdued, this is usually when I reaching for my cuffs. Once those are on, odds are (again, ODDS are) I won't need to use any more holds or locks.
I'm just returning from some travel so I have tried to catch up on what has been discussed. I'm afraid I'm in the same boat as Don. I have seldom come up against anyone with enough serious training in martial arts that they were dangerous to anyone with some street smarts. If I ever do, well...then I guess we'll see how well they catch bullets in their teeth!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Stryfe]

I can see the point, no martial art can take a shotgun at 30 feet. But thats not the point. You practice firing your weapon right? You fight more than you shoot, so you should practice that too. And they help to maintain your physical conditioning as well.

[Don]

Originally posted by Dana:
We also learned how to safely take a gun and knife away from suspects.

I sincerely hope with all my heart and soul that you don't really believe this. Because if you do, and if you go on to become a street cop, we will likely see your name in the officer down forum. I pray that does not happen.

Yes there may come a time when your life depends on being able to do this, if you let yourself get into a position where a BG gets the drop on you. But if you are smart, you will not let that happen.

It is wonderful to have this type of training, but remember that OVER confidence is as big a killer of LE officers as there is. The "John Wayne Syndrome" has lead to way too many deaths of cops. Don't be one of them!



------------------
"Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". . . Judge Judy
6P1 (retired)

[David Mudd]

Originally posted by Stryfe:
I can see the point, no martial art can take a shotgun at 30 feet. But thats not the point. You practice firing your weapon right? You fight more than you shoot, so you should practice that too. And they help to maintain your physical conditioning as well.
That's generally what I'm saying, however..I doubt I'd ever fire at an unarmed subject from thirty feet. Also, of course there are many more physical altercations with subjects than deadly force situations. However, using martial arts is still not a great way to go. First of all, there's liability. Since my academy does not teach "martial arts" (I have quoted that as I'm aware that many of our strikes and takedowns are BASED on martial art techniques) as a way to subdue suspects or take them into custody, were I to use them and seriously injure someone, I'm on my own when it comes time for a civil trial. I may also be in trouble with the department for not following the force continuum.
Second, I make as much time as possible to practice PR-24 swings, chops, blocks, and holds, as well as other come-alongs, common peroneal leg strikes, etc, etc. Add that to firearm practice, OC certification, weight training, cardiovascular training...blah, blah, blah. You see where I'm going??
You are 100% correct when you say that they (martial arts) will improve physical conditioning. The problem is that so will many other things, things that I can (and do)use on a more routine basis.



[This message has been edited by David Mudd (edited 11-25-2000).]

[dkiefner]

David Mudd writes:
>>>Since my academy does not teach "marital arts" <<<

Well, I should hope not.

Sorry David, I am weak. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[David Mudd]

Rebecca....oh, Rebbbbbeeecccaaaaa!! Can you get that knife out of my back for me?? Just return it to Dave when you see him!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Blue23]

>>Yeah, I'm talking about fights. I am/was an enforcer, I stopped playing junior, and I

[Nikon]

Originally posted by Blue23:
We are all embarrassed for you my friend. http://www.officer.com/ubb/redface.gif


He embarrassed the hockey players too? I thought it was just the martial artists. But then again, I never played hockey.

[Stryfe]

I was refering to hockey fights, not hockey as a sport. And I'm not a friggin PR Rep, I call it like I see it. I've played hockey for 14 years. Where should I be embarassed? "goon"? whatever, I've been called worse. Somebody has to do it, or else reform the entire sport. I came pretty close to getting drafted, I jsut wasn't fast enough. I haven't watched Slapshot in years... that is a classic though.

Nikon, you ever have anything constructive to say? You don't seem to defend an issue, you just hop on the bandwagon to trash me.

[boomer21]

I've played hockey for 14 years.

Wow dude, I'm impressed! You started playing hockey when you were 4 years old. What was the penalty for slugging another kindergartener? Loss of recess? No twinkies?

Then you are not a great scorer and don't skate fast, but you almost got drafted. Horseshoes and hand grenades Walter.

In your short lifetime, you've studied all these cool martial arts and train daily in them. You do it alone or with your brother, but everyone has seen you and knows you are proficient.

You also got this expensive car and a girlfriend and you support those on a high school student's wages.

Then again maybe you just graduated this year, so with all this stuff keeping you busy just when do you find time for work or classes?

***searching for calculator and shovel............

[Nikon]

Stryfe, no, I have nothing constructive for you. I've been reading your posts, and I have seen the way you respond to constructive criticism.
Disipline is the FIRST thing taught in any decent dojo. I feel, after reading your posts, that any decent dojo would ask you to leave in a couple days. You have shown that you have NO disipline, and feel that you should not be held accountable for your actions.

[This message has been edited by Nikon (edited 11-25-2000).]

[Blue23]

>>I was refering to hockey fights, not hockey as a sport.<<

Stryfe, I came out of the metro league in the New York area in the late 70

[Stryfe]

Yeh, I started when I was four. Yeh, I know a couple martial arts, some better than others.

I finished highschool in June, I'm a security consultant for now, I start school again next fall.

Nikon, what are you talking about the way I respond to criticism? By trying to address the issue and clear up misunderstandings? Did you want me to attack you personally?

I like responding to blue, atleast he injects a little bit of personality into his comments. I play defense blue, stay at home mostly. I own the corners http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif I played for easily the cheapest roughest team in the league. I'm not embarassed by the fighting, cause I didn't pick fights. If I had to I had to. It was a rough league, and it got to be a challenge for players on other teams to fight me. Sorry if you feel I'm maligning the sport, I do feel that you would probably be disgusted to watch my team play. Thats why I don't play for them anymore. The coaching was terrible, rather than try and discipline us they encouraged the fighting, but you can't blame the coaches. The players have to take responsibilty.

[Rebecca]

Originally posted by David Mudd:
Rebecca....oh, Rebbbbbeeecccaaaaa!! Can you get that knife out of my back for me?? Just return it to Dave when you see him!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Return it to Dave? Not 'till I clean it up, sharpen it, put it in a box with the other knives, wrap some pretty paper around it... and call it a Christmas present. I'm cheap like that... and Dave's so easy after drinking the holiday brew... he'll never know. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Now, about that hole you've got there, I learned some marital arts a couple of husbands ago.. come to Rebecca darlin' ... I can make you feel all better. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Nikon]

Originally posted by Stryfe:
Nikon, what are you talking about the way I respond to criticism?

I really feel like this a 25-1 confrontation right here, only no way I can win this one. I said I probably shouldn't have tossed him, what more do you want?

Oh, i'm sooo sorry you don't believe me, but why would I lie?
I was looking for a commentary on the moral dilemna of wanting to take action for oneself instead I get a moral diatribe on my own negative character aspects. Very enlightened. I especially like the bandwagon posts bashing me, they are my favourite.
I caught it, I just chose to ignore it.
Nikon, are you a saint? Hows your patience and self-control? Must be limitless eh?
I don't like to be judged.
I asked for opinion, not judgement.
I don't need counselling.
....That's what I meant.
As far as you personally attacking me, you have no ammo. I wasn't on this board boasting that I threw a kid. I wasn't boasting about giving people concussions. I wasn't claiming to be "proficient in martial arts". I wasn't bragging that all the kids in the neighborhood are afraid of me, but fearless of the cops. I didn't say that I spar with my brother in my front yard for all to see. All I said was that I have around 25 years of martial arts experience, and you do not act like someone who is proficient in martial arts. In order to get to the point were you are proficient you must learn disipline, and you have none.
If you want to know the truth, I think you have VERY LITTLE if ANY martial arts experience. You probably know enough to scare the neighbor kids, and that's it. I'm guessing that you have friends that have taken some martial arts, and they showed you some moves, and the rest you learned from watching Van Dame and Segal movies, with maybe some Saturday afternoon UHF kung fu theatre thrown in.
I don't know these things for sure, but that is the impression I get. Go ahead and personally attack me.

*Moderators, I'm sorry if I overstepped any rules, and I'll understand if this gets editted or deleted.*

[boomer21]

I finished highschool in June, I'm a security consultant for now...

A security consultant??? Just what does a 'security consultant' do? Does that mean you cruise the K mart looking for kids stealing penny candy, or is it more hockeyspeak for enforcer?

[Stryfe]

Nikon, your right, so far I have no ammo. You don't seem to have much personality, and I don't want to bother looking up all your past posts for something to slam. I don't have as much experience as you in the martial arts. Some I've only recently started to learn, others, I started when I was little and have kept it up. I don't show off what I can do. I don't need to. Van Damme is alright, I don't like Seagal.
Don't worry about it being deleted, didn't hurt my feelings, I would have repeated it myself if you'd asked. I don't like negative unconstructive personal criticism, so sue me.

boomer, I do security. Corporate (patrol, gate, supervisory) Alarm Response, Bodyguard, K-9, PI, Event, Surveillance (cctv etc) . Wherever my company sends me I go. Its pretty funny, but I'm actually pretty good with people, so I get sent to liase with difficult customers. Its jsut easier to say "consultant" than to list all the stuff I do.

[boomer21]

bodyguard, PI, K9, supervisory.......

Wow, 5 months on the job and you do all that stuff??? I bet they do send you to deal with the difficult ones. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Just don't forget you're on the job and not at a hockey game - see how quick you become a liability then.

Christmas goose, Walter, Christmas goose

[Niteshift]

I'm getting my boots out http://www.officer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Monty Ealerman]

David M:

I agree with you that if you don't practice the techniques you learn, you won't be able to use them in a real situation, and that not practicing accounts for some of the nonuseability of certain techniques.

I don't think that accounts for all of it, however. I think that the locking and trapping techniques have a slight added complexity compared to percussive techniques that makes them slightly slower. Once a hold is correctly and fully obtained, it can be extremely difficult or impossible to escape from; however, most of the holds can be escaped from during the attempt to apply them.

In general, with appropriate supporting bodily movement, straight-arm locks can be released by bending the arm, and bent arm locks can be released by straightening the arm. If a person is using 2 hands to apply a lock to one of the opponent's hands, the opponent usually can rescue his jepoardized hand by grabbing it with his other hand and than drawing his hands and body together.

This is much more easily demonstrated than explained, and it may be difficult to visualize the situations from these few words.

My main concern in the post you responded to was to express concern about the possibility of a complacent attitude engendered by a modicum of martial art training.

Enthusiasm is a good thing in that helps to keep a person practicing, but sometimes a new practitioner gets the idea that the newly learned techniques do more to impart a level of safety in a tight spot than they really can impart.

A person who has practiced as long as you have is not likely to make that kind of mistake; however, many persons newer to the martial arts do at times mis-estimate, sometimes at their peril.

I hope all those learning martial art techniques will refrain from overestimating their useability, and will nevertheless practice them assiduously, as it may be inferred from your post that you would recommend.

Regards,

Monty

[David Mudd]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Monty Ealerman:

This is much more easily demonstrated than explained, and it may be difficult to visualize the situations from these few words.

No, I know exactly what you are saying. The long and short of it is that for every technique there is a counter and applying these types of holds/locks is an option, not the end all, be all. Also, I am once again reminded that "few" is a very subjective term!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

My main concern in the post you responded to was to express concern about the possibility of a complacent attitude engendered by a modicum of martial art training.

After my brain came out of hyperdrive, I reread this and was able to decode it. Yes, you are right...I think it's akin to the feeling you have walking out of a Segal/Norris/Van Damme movie and wanting to take on the whole world!!

A person who has practiced as long as you have is not likely to make that kind of mistake; however, many persons newer to the martial arts do at times mis-estimate, sometimes at their peril.

No,no...I have never studied any martial art (double checking spelling.... http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif). I've always relied on doing what just felt right at the time (though it certainly didn't always work!!), and then later..what I learned in the military and then police academy. One of the things I have learned is that the fancier the move is, the bigger the chance that it won't work. I like to use simple chops/blocks/strikes/holds...whatever. The fewer the better!!

[Monty Ealerman]

David:

You're right about the subjectivity of what "few" means. If it takes less than 30 minutes to read aloud, I think I'm being brief. I view all fighting practice as martial art practice, even if the person practicing it thinks of it as simple. Most valid martial art is simple. When simple moves are chained together, complexity can result, but if the moves start out complex, they in many instances can take too long.

Regards,

Monty

[This message has been edited by Monty Ealerman (edited 11-28-2000).]