Cops CCW out of state?

[Highpockets]

Whoa, I just read thread upon thread at a forum under apbnews.com about whether or not LEO's should be able to CCW in states other than their own.

I say a big YES to this for LEO's but I also think if I have a CCW permit in my state it should also count for other states as well.

After all, if I might need to protect myself and family in my own state - would we be danger free in any other states???

I know how some states say you can carry if your weapon is in one place unloaded and ammo in another - what if a car jacker endangers me and\or my family - "Just a minute while I recover my handgun and ammo and load up to protect myself from you.." Pretty much ridiculous I think.

Anyway, as an LEO, if you ran across an LEO from another state that was CCW would you give professional courtesy or go by the letter of the law? How about a civilian with a CCW permit from their home state??

(Keep in mind that neither the LEO or civilian have violated any laws, other than perhaps being CCW in your state...)

[Topdog]

A LEO always gets a courtesy from me. But, I've seen other LEOs who would ticket their own mother.

We need to get a standardized Federal law that allows all LEOs to legally be armed while they are ANYWHERE in the United States.

I'm not very knowledgeable about CCW licenses for civilians and the reciprocity laws between the various states.

[David Mudd]

There is such a bill pending in congress Top. If passed, it would allow all active, sworn, law enforcement officers and officers that have retired in good standing, to carry concealed across the nation. You can find out more about it by visiting the website www.leaa.org (http://www.leaa.org)
http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Don]

Originally posted by Highpockets:
(Keep in mind that neither the LEO or civilian have violated any laws, other than perhaps being CCW in your state...)

In reality, if no other laws were violated there is very little chance that an officer would have reason to contact the person and thereby discover that they are carrying.

However, in the unlikely event that this did occur, there is a likelihood that another officer would "get by with it", but that is not a certainty. There is also a greater likelihood that a civilian with a CCW would not.

Of course both instances would depend on the individual officer. There are those of us who would have little or no problem with

[retired]

Well,
I'll take a different view on this. First, I don't believe that the federal government should be telling any state who they have to allow to carry a concealed weapon. That is a state's right, not a federal right or responsibility.

Secondlly, I believe that the majority of most states permit LEO's to carry in their states. If they don't allow it, live with it, you are not on duty in that state.

I just object to more and more federal encroachment into state's rights.

Just my opinion.

Retired

[Don]

Retired your point is well made. I also do not like to see federal interference in the states, but in my opinion this is something that needs to be done in this case. You see Retired, I can remember when the police department in Denver Colorado was arresting officers from other jurisdictions for carrying concealed within the Denver City Limits. Some of these officers actually lived in Denver and had to carry to and from work. But Denver had this city ordinance that did not recognize any LE except for Denver officers.

Hopefully this no longer happens in Denver, I have been gone from there for so many years it has surely changed by now. But it is this type of bullcrap that brings on federal interference.

I have spent too many years working in agencies where the top command felt that any other agency was at best

[retired]

Don,
In this day and age I would guess that most if not all LEO'S derive their peace officer status from state law. If not, it is an issue that the IACP and FOP and other LE organizations could and should address without bringing in the feds.

I am just too uncomfortable with the feds!

retired

[Topdog]

DON:
The police department in Denver Colorado was arresting officers from other jurisdictions for carrying concealed within the Denver City Limits. Some of these officers actually lived in Denver and had to carry to and from work. But Denver had this city ordinance that did not recognize any LE except for Denver officers.

TOPDOG:
A retired major from the Pennsylvania state police (SP) told an in-service training class the following story: Some New Jersey bootleggers were brewing their illegal booze in New Jersey and were then bringing it across the state lines to distribute it in Pennsylvania. The Pennsylvania SP were investigating the case, so they sent some of their undercover SP officers across the state lines and into New Jersey to "observe" the bootleggers. The Pennsylvania SP officers kept their concealed firearms when they went into New Jersey. We'll, the New Jersey SP got wind of what was going on, and there had been previous bad blood between the agencies (tit for tat stuff), so the New Jersey SP sent their officers out to arrest (yes, arrest) the Pennsylvania undercover SP officers for unlawfully carrying concealed weapons in the state of New Jersey.

I have heard of many such incidents in the area of New York also. A Federal law would do away with such nonsense (like arresting an officer for being in possession of his issued firearm).

.


[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 11-11-2000).]

[radar]

Unless things have changed guys do not get caught in Mass or NY with a concealed weapon no matter what type of LEO you are. Mass will take you straight to jail, or so they claim.

[Topdog]

RADAR:
Do not get caught in Mass or NY with a concealed weapon, no matter what type of LEO you are. Mass will take you straight to jail they claim.

TOPDOG:
The ONE nice thing about being a Federal officer: They don't have to worry about being in the wrong jurisdiction with their issued sidearm.

This jurisdictional crap is nuts. We need a blanket-Federal law to protect us.

[retired]

Topdog,
A federal law to protect us from what? Arrest by cops from one or two states in the union who don't want you to carry a gun? Hey, if thoses states don't or won't regonize your peace officer authority, don't carry a gun in that state, it's that simple. But to suggest that the feds do it for us is unacceptable to me.

In case anyone is interested, this is a site I found for out of state officers carrying. I'm sure there are others, but this may be interesting.
http://www.rupd.rice.edu/txnm/gunlaws.html

retired

[Topdog]

RETIRED WRITES:
A federal law to protect us from what? Arrest by cops from one or two states in the union who don't want you to carry a gun?

TOPDOG REPLIES:
Yes!!! You hit the nail on the head!!! I could not have said it better.

I don't know of any other country in the world where the local police can be arrested for moving from one jurisdiction to another for carrying their issued sidearm, WHILE THEY ARE STILL WITHIN THEIR OWN COUNTRY'S BORDER. America is very unique in that regard and I find it to be silly.

Geeze, we've already got a million unnecessary Federal laws. Why do you object to one NECESSARY Federal law? Is it the straw that will break the camels back????

[Highpockets]

TopDog, I totally agree with you. I saw one reply where a law to that effect has been proposed. Do you think that law would also include MP's??

[Topdog]

Hi Highpockets,

Active-duty MPs are considered to be Federal LEOs while they are "on duty" and they may carry their issued sidearms anywhere in the United States, as long as they have authorization from their commander. MPs can legally pass through city, county and state lines. Police officers and deputy sheriffs do not have this kind of nationwide, blanket-coverage.

Federal laws authorize Federal officers to carry their sidearms anywhere in the Union and the states cannot demand that Federal officers disarm themselves just because they are passing through their state!!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

The law that you were referring to probably would not apply to MPs because they are already protected by Federal laws.

.




[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Highpockets]

Thanks for the quick reply TopDog. I was more interested in "off duty" carry accross state lines for MP's.
http://www.leaa.org

Has info on allowing LEO's carry on or off duty even for retired LEO's. I was hoping this would include MP's.

I live in Mobile Alabama & sometimes cross over to FL, MS, LA & TX and would like to know I could carry (not in trunk) and be able to protect self and family from carjackers and etc...
PS: I do have an AL Concealed Carry Permit.

Again, Thanks for your reply's.

[Topdog]

HIGHPOCKETS WRITES
I was more interested in "off duty" carry accross state lines for MP's.

TOPDOG REPLIES
A military policeman does not have "police authority" when he is "off duty." The only authority that he has is in his rank, according to the UCMJ. Additionally, when an MP gets off duty, he is required to return his sidearm to the armory for safekeeping. An MP is not even allowed to carry an issued firearm when he is off duty, unless he is on a special assignment.

Lets review the above:
1) An MP does not have LEO authority when he is off-duty which means, technically, he is NOT a cop when he is off-duty (even on a military reservation).
2) MPs are not allowed to carry "issued" sidearms when they're off-duty.

Consequently, if an MP wants to carry a firearm while he is off-duty, he will have to apply for a state-issued concealed firearms permit.

HIGHPOCKETS WRITES:
I do have an AL Concealed Carry Permit. Does this authorize me to carry my firearm into FL, MS, LA & TX?

TOPDOG REPLIES:
Many of the states "reciprocate" the concealed firearms permits of other states. For example, Florida is a reciprocal state. What does that mean? It means that if Alabama honors Florida's concealed permits, then Florida will honor Alabama's concealed permits. The states "reciprocate eachother."

I am not sure which states are reciprocal (when it comes to concealed carry). I do know that Florida will reciprocate any state that is willing to reciprocate Florida.

[retired]

Topdog,
I really don't want to get into a prolonged heated debate about this, but no, I don't think we don't another federal law, and in my opinion, this is one more unecessary federal law.

How many times in your career have you had to go into another state while on duty? I don't think it happens very often. And when cops have gone into other states for official investigations, how many have been arrested for carrying their gun?

No, I can't support another federal law for that.

retired

[Topdog]

RETIRED WRITES
I really don't want to get into a prolonged heated debate about this.

TOPDOG REPLIES
Roger that!!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

RETIRED
How many times in your career have you had to go into another state while on duty?

TOPDOG
Never! But when I go to visit my family in a crime ridden big city in a nearby state, it would be nice if I could legally carry a sidearm.

RETIRED
And when cops have gone into other states for official investigations, how many have been arrested for carrying their gun?

TOPDOG
Very few, I'm sure. None in the last few years (that I can think of).

[JKT]

You might also look here:
http://www.cowtown.net/Cop_Shop/peace_officer_carrying_of_hand.html

The info is basically the same but there are some differences. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Good luck and be safe

Jack

[retired]

Topdog,
I can only say that if you or any other LEO had been in California carrying a gun while I was on duty, you were home free partner!!

And I don't know of anyone I worked with that had a different attitude.

But you have to remember, I am from the old school where other cops were treated like they were from our department.

I think times have changed.

retired

[Don]

Originally posted by retired:
How many times in your career have you had to go into another state while on duty?

Retired,

In my case, and the case of many officers who work counties that border adjacent states, the answer to that is "hundreds". Not to mention the hundreds more when you go there off duty.

The unofficial breaks that most officers give to other officers are great. But then you run into the joker who thinks he can make rank a little quicker by busting another cop.

The fact is, that if you work in an area such as Winterhaven, you are going to be busting people from Yuma who screw up on your beat.

Since many of the deputies live in Yuma, it is rather unpractical for them to not be able to carry to and from home. Also the deputies who live in Winterhaven wind up going to Yuma to do all their shopping or even to go someplace decent for dinner or a movie.

This scenario is repeated in every state that has a resident post or small town near a state line and where the closest town of any size is across that line.

Now I don't know about you, but when I was on the job, I didn't go ANYWERE without packing, (except the swimming pool).

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"Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining". . . Judge Judy
6P1 (retired)

[This message has been edited by Don (edited 11-13-2000).]

[cpierson1]

Just a question:

Does the right to keep and bear arms end at the state line? Or does that right go with a person anywhere they might travel?

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13th Rule Of Combat: When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is NOT our friend.

[Highpockets]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cpierson1:
[B]Just a question:

Does the right to keep and bear arms end at the state line? Or does that right go with a person anywhere they might travel?

Thank You Cpierson1, I believe when the 2nd was written the folks in charge didn't mean for the right to end at each state line. On or Off duty MP, LEO or John\Jane Citizen should have the right to protect themselves and family where ever they have to go....

[Boss Hog]

When the 2nd amendment was first written, an American citizen could carry his firearm anywhere in the Union.

And thats a fact!!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/eek.gif

[sam6]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Highpockets:
I say a big YES to this for LEO's but I also think if I have a CCW permit in my state it should also count for other states as well.

Nothing in the Constitution forbids anyone (including LEO's) from carrying concealed. The States have taken the right from us. A new Federal Law (sorry "Retired") would help us not hurt us. I carry 24/7, I shouldn't have to stop just to because I cross a state line!

Actually I have heard of two bills in Congress, the one for LEO's and another the so called "Resiprosity" law. So maybe there is hope.



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[David Mudd]

Don and TopDog...I am 100% behind what you are saying. Retired, it's really not a question of whether or not I'm going to get a break from the officer in whose jurisdiction I'm carrying (presumably illegally). As someone else pointed out, I really shouldn't be doing anything that brings attention to the fact that I am carrying concealed. The real problem arises when I end up having to defend my life or that of someone elses by using deadly force. At this point, EVERYONE is in the trick bag. The cop that responds will almost have to arrest me. The prosecuting attorney will have to press for a conviction, and my own department will have to suspend me pending the outcome. So let's presume I get jammed on the CDW charge but get aquitted of manslaughter or some such nonsense. I'm still TOAST in the civil trial that will follow because I shouldn't have been carrying!
I carry whenever I travel and rely on the good graces of the officer that may have to make that call. I would feel much safer (career wise) if I were covered by the national CDW law for active/retired LEO.