Supplements

[jeeper]

I was wondering how many people use nutritional supplements. Currently what I'm wondering about is the creatine/hydroxycut/xenadrine type stuff. I know numerous people at my department who use items such as these and NO ONE has had any negative effects. I have a friend who worked for GNC for a while and swears by many of the products (combined of course with hard work and determination). Anyone have good/bad experiences?

[ateamer]

Creatine and xenadrine are not the same thing. Xenadrine is basically legal crank; it's a stimulant which speeds up the metabolism, causing more calories to be burned. It also makes the user bounce off the walls, be nervous and can lead to sleeping problems.

Creatine is a mass builder. Creatine works by replenishing adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which is the substance whose presence causes muscle cells to contract. Creatine supplementation leads to faster ATP regeneration, which allows the muscles to sustain a contraction under load for a longer period (more reps per set or have enough reserve to complete that one heavy rep). The side effect is that creatine's presence in the muscle cells draws water through the cell walls, swelling the muscle. This effect is called volumizing. The side effect of gaining lean mass is why most people take creatine. It is essential that a creatine user greatly increase water intake to prevent cramping, since water normally used for other functions is not available when in the muscle cells.

I have used creatine steadily for six and a half years and have noticed no ill effects, nor have any been documented by any studies.

I don't really have much information about fat loss products, since I am always trying to get bigger.

[ProWriter]

Jeeper, I covered a few related supplement issues in the "ONLY those wanting honest training/nutrition help..." thread, but I have a more general response to supplements and GNC:

First, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with AT about Creatin because I know there are some advanced power lifter types who use it and seem to like it. From what I've seen, guys most concerned with strength and sheer body mass are more likely to benefit from it than anybody more concerned with being lean and muscular. Creatin seems to help with strength because muscles tend to retain more water. Powerlifters know that a little extra "substance" (whether water or interstitial fat cells) helps increase strength by filling out the microscopic spaces between the individual muscle fibers that slide together during contraction. Body builders who are desperately underweight use it too, but for physique concerns, Creatin can result in a puffy, bloated look rather than a muscular look. Ectomorphic types might appreciate it, but guys already fighting extra weight and trying to keep a lean look will probably find it somewhat counterproductive.

OTOH, I've watched the sports supplement industry for two decades and there's a few patterns to be very mindful about, especially if you're relatively new to this whole thing.

If you go back through 20 years of Weider Muscle & Fitness issues, you'll see a never ending list of "revolutionary", "new" natural supplements that are supposed to rival steroids in their results. Some of these products (like Metabolol, etc) even have names that purposely make them sound like the more familiar steroids. They also throw in words like "stacking" which is what steroid users call combining more than one drug at a time, all as a form of "subliminal suggestion" or advertising.

If you go back a few years, you'll find the exact same claims for things like "yohimbe", zinc picolonate, "designer aminos", etc, etc, that are all presented as the "solution" to steroid-free muscle building. In my view, Creatin is just another product in that very long line of products (over)marketed to beginning fitness enthusiasts (Not referring to AT here) to suck money from your wallets.

Androstenedione or "Andro" is only different in that it happened by accident rather than by a designed ad campaign, although no time was wasted capitalizing on the accident after someone noticed a bottle in the locker of one famous power hitter. Chances are a new advertising blitz and subsequent fitness craze would have developed around WHATEVER bottle happened to be in his locker that day.

I have nothing particular against GNC either, and I have a GNC gold card and that's where I get some of my protein bars or whatever every month.

OTOH, health food stores are the last place one should ever go for nutritional advice. The people who run them usually know absolutely nothing about health OR fitness, and they've just memorized whatever catch phrases and buzz words currently floating around the supplement industry and everything they say comes right out of their promotional literature from their sales catalogs.

Every once in a while consumer product watchdog groups (and the FDA) send someone into health food chain stores with questions purposely introduced as "medical questions" about very serious ailments like cancer, heart disease and diabetes, etc to see what "advice" they get.
The subject will ask soemthing like: "I have colon cancer and my doctor wants to operate, but I want to try something natural first."

They never respond appropriately by saying: "Sir, I am prohibited by law from dispensing medical advice and you have to ask your doctor or get a second medical opinion from another doctor for that." Virtually 100% of the time the sales person (whose education is usually limited to a high school diploma) gives people advice about what stupid, over the counter pill or herb will "help" their cancer or heart disease, instead of telling them that these are questions ONLY for a medical doctor to answer, as required by law. GNC sales people get no training beyond "sales" training and GNC product familiarity training, and are usually hired because they have prior "sales" experience (like car sales), or because they look fit, themselves, or both.

GNC is a good place to find products after you've decided from some OTHER, independant information which supplement (if any) you need for your purposes, just like a used car lot might be a good place to find a specific model you've already researched elsewhere...but you don't go to GNC asking for advice on which product you need for the same reason you don't ask used car salesmen to help you "decide" what kind of car you want to buy with the exact amount of money in your car budget. The only difference is used car salesmen probably know a lot more about cars than GNC sales counterpeople know about nutrition and health.

<small>[ 06-14-2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: ProWritingServices4LEOs ]</small>

[FLLawdog]

I did Xenadrine EFX about a month ago. It gave me some extra pep, but I wasn't bouncing off the walls. It helped to have an outlet for the energy, though. My workout duration went up and my run time went down.

My wife tried it briefly. She got a serious boost, but a hard "crash". Needless to say, she stopped taking it.

On the weight loss side, I lost some serious weight by taking that AND working out. More than just a workout alone and I've kept it off.

[jeeper]

I'm familiar with the differences in the sups I mentioned. I had used Hydroxycut for just a litle bit, but quit after reading an article. The article basically talked about how a study done by UW which said how little accuracy was used in the making of the stuff. There was such a HUGE discrepancy between each pill or bottle that it was scary.

Is there a respectable supplement manufacturer out there?

[ateamer]

Optimum Nutrition has an excellent reputation and has scored well on tests of their products. I have heard Beverly International is good, too.

[jellybean40]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ateamer:
<strong>Xenadrine is basically legal crank; it's a stimulant which speeds up the metabolism, causing more calories to be burned. It also makes the user bounce off the walls, be nervous and can lead to sleeping problems.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arent all the supplements that contain stimulants dangerous? I know even the ones without ephedra have tons of caffeine...if it speeds up your metabolism, doesnt it also speed up your heartrate and affect your b/p?

[ProWriter]

Generally speaking, caffeine is considered pretty safe for most people and even "overdose" symptoms are still relatively benign, even if mildly unpleasant. I'm sure there are some people whose particular health concerns make ANY stimulant a bad idea, but ephedra is specifically contraindicated by MANY conditions such as HBP, hypertension, cardiac problems, prostate problems, pregnancy, diabetes, thyroid problems, circulatory problems, glaucoma, to mention only a few conditions, and MAOI antidepressants, some migraine medications, Lanoxin, to mention only a few of the known (or suspected) dangerous drug interactions.

By far, the most dangerous combo is caffeine combined with ephedra, taken before or during strenuous exercise. Ephedra supplements almost always are "supposed" to be used in conjunction with exercise, and MOST of them also combine caffeine in the same products. If the same relative percentage of people died from caffeine "doses" as have already died from ephedra doses, the toll would be in the many many millions and caffeine would have probably accounted for more deaths than just about all other causes combined, except maybe warfare, by virtue of all the coffee consumed worldwide since its first use...so on a per dose basis, I don't think you can really compare the two, safety-wise, you know?

<small>[ 06-16-2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: ProWritingServices4LEOs ]</small>

[ProWriter]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is there a respectable supplement manufacturer out there?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it's so much the manufacturers' degree of respectability as it is the nature of the entire industry that has evolved within the parameters allowed by current FDA regulations.

There are plenty of supplements that have their place in a nutritional program, but if any of the large manufacturers limited its production to JUST those products, there wouldn't be billions to be made in the industry, and they'd be overwhelmed by the competition.

The problem is that the FDA only regulates "drugs", which leaves a tremendous loophole for practically any product as long as it doesn't purport to "cure" any ailment or disease. Any reading of a typical supplement label on the back of a bottle will reveal extensive "legalese", saying in microscopic print "No medical claims are made for this product and it is not intended to cure any disease", etc. MEANWHILE, the huge block letters on the front of the bottle spell out "PROSTATE FORMULA" or whatever and the literature says something like "This product MAY assist prostate functioning". :(

The FDA is in the process of cracking down and redefining what constitutes a "health claim" and such, but right now, it's still up to the consumer to know which products are considered helpful (or at least SAFE) by medical experts, and which products are just totally untested for effectiveness (at best), and potentially harmful (at worst), until the FDA clamps down. Unfortunately, it's the majority of the stuff on health food store shelves that are a total waste of money. If you know what you're looking for from independent advice you can find some useful things in health food stores, but I would not go into ANY health food store with questions about what product you "should" take for anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The article basically talked about how a study done by UW which said how little accuracy was used in the making of the stuff. There was such a HUGE discrepancy between each pill or bottle that it was scary.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another huge problem. These things aren't regulated at all and as you mentioned, even "helpful" products can vary ridiculously from bottle to bottle, and from pill to pill, and between what the label says the amount of "active ingredient" is in relation to what's actually in the product. And that's for "traditional" health food products. The situation with so called "homeopathic" junk is even worse...as often as not, tested samples contain not even a single MOLECULE of the purported "active ingredients". I don't want any more problems with the moderators, so PLEASE don't get me started on "Homeopathy" ok? I promise to stay clear from any threads supporting homeopathic products :)

<small>[ 06-16-2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: ProWritingServices4LEOs ]</small>