View Full Version : ASP vs. PR-24
My dept had carried the PR-24. Most of us don't carry a baton at the moment. Various reasons for it- lapsed certifications, "it's too heavy", "it's too cumbersome", etc. Anyway, we were talking and most of the newer guys want to switch to the ASP. Having never worked with one, here's the question. What, if any, are the advantages of an ASP over a PR-24, if any? (Other than size and ease of carry)
Watchman
08-14-2002, 10:06 PM
The main thing is you will carry the ASP on you all the time and never know its there till ya need it.
Snapping it out will get attention, in fact I know of a couple of cases where just breaking one out was all it took to handle the situation.
Its just another tool to use. A tool in the car usaully isnt much good for anything.
PeteBroccolo
08-14-2002, 10:42 PM
When I started in the fall of 1975, we had NO batons of any kind available for patrol duties. We received riot squad training with the long oak batons, and some Detachments had them available, but they were only stored in the buildings, not the cars.
Sometime after 1981 we were trained in the use of short batons made of solid plastic, and were issued carrying rings for our Sam Brownes, but again we were not personally issued batons, although each vehicle had 2 batons and a baton carrier mounted on each of the 2 front doors. The mounts were bent over rad hoses screwed at one end to a square aluminum bar with a leather strap screwed to the other end. The baton was inserted into the tube and held down by the strap, which had a single snap to undue to release the baton. The straps, snap, hose or the bolts holding the bar to the door panel, or all 4, would break or otherwise fail, and the baton would fall out, or get kicked off, as you went in and out of the door. The baton was impossible to carry in the ring while sitting in the car, and a pain when walking around. Eventually, the batons were abandoned in the office.
We were trained in the use of, and personally issued, ASPs about 1995. I still use the unswivelled, black plastic basketweave-look scabbard, with split front and bottom hole, that I was first issued. The current issue scabbard is a smooth gloss black plastic model that can swivel. Some guys buy out of their own pocket a black basket-weave leather scabbard that does not swivel and is solid-sided, but has a flap over the bottom hole that is secured by a snap and an upper snap-secured strap to hold back the top of the handle of the baton.
I never did use an oak or plastic baton, and won't go into my use of my 4 D cell aluminum flashlight, but I have used my ASP once to control the threats of a mentally-deranged "client". I like the idea that the ASP is always there, even if it does dig into my ribs. I carry mine on my weak-hand side.
The PR-24 looked neat, but again, if you haven't got it with you when you need it, what good is it?
LeeRoy
08-15-2002, 02:00 AM
It's very rare my area to see an agency authorize its officers to run around without batons on the belt when out of the patrol car. The rationale is that if you get into an fight that eventually goes lethal and you don't have the option of the baton you (more likely the department) will face greater civil liability than if a baton was available.
Like the previous posts say the beauty of the ASP is that its always with you. We aren't authorized the ASP but we can carry the collapsable Monadnock straight and PR-24 sticks.
Our
Both have good and bad points.
A study by the Police Complaints Authority here in the UK shows consistantly that the most baton related complaints go to officers carrying the PR-24. The Asp is second and the lowest amount of complaints go to officers carrying the APB (Acrylic Patrol Baton)
They reckon that the high PR-24 complaint figure is down to the lack of training given to officers carrying it (We don't use it in my force)
All officers in the UK carry a baton. It is our only defensive weapon along with CS.
The Asp has been proved to be problematical in public disorder / riot situations. A few years ago my Asp kept retracting after making a number of clearance strikes.
When I'm deployed in public order kit I now carry the old APB. It's big, hard and there are no moving parts to go wrong. If I'm working as a PO medic then I carry my Asp for the sake of ease. I think you have to consider role etc before putting one over the other.
CopInNY
08-16-2002, 02:19 PM
Watchman has summed it up nicely.
It takes up much less room then the PR24, weighs less, and just snapping it out will often times get the control from a person or crowd you're looking for.
Well, I obviously posted my question too soon. It appears the chief has decided to go with a "new" PR-24 confiquration. Evidently, it's smaller, like an ASP, but still has the side handle. I'm looking for info on it now.
As of yet, there is no written policy on carrying a baton in my PD. As I said, none of the officers carry one. The officers seem to concur that baton use will almost always result in some type of negative response from our adminitration. Most of us, at one time or another, have gone thru the necessary training with the PR-24 and were fairly proficent with it. However, as certifications ran out, the higher-ups showed little interest is keeping us current.
It appeared they were glad we wouldn't be carrying them. And since our certifications were expired, no one wanted to be the first kid on the block to have to test whether continuing to use one opened up any liability issue.
I had almost been ready to chat with the chief about the lack of baton eliminating an important step in the Continuum, and try to push him towards the ASP. Like most of you stated, a baton the officer won't carry does little good. But it appears he had been giving it some thought. Once I fiqure out what he's talking about, I'll post again for information on this new tool.
Bill R
08-17-2002, 11:46 AM
How much training/practice is necessary to be proficient with the PR-24? I had a very limited session with one and proper use did not seem to come "naturally". I was too concerned with the thing coming back and hitting myself and strikes did not come out very powerful. The straight baton seemed much more comfortable and my strikes had a lot more power.
Seems to me the basic course was 8, maybe 10, hours long. I think the recert course was maybe 4. Like a lot of LE training, a bit of practice is required by the LEO, probably on their own.
Thinking way back to the academy, the PR-24 class was a total of 16- 20 hours, given at night, and alledged to be optional. Though we really didn't have a lot of choice whether we went or not. (We had to stay at the academy from Monday morning to Friday afternoon) That instructor used a lot of repetitive drills to fine tune the skills being taught.
Sparky
08-17-2002, 04:46 PM
I prefer the good old wooden straight baton.
It's a pain to put it on the belt everytime you get out of the car, but it's reflexive after a time.
I've seen officers fail to be able to get the ASP to lock out. I've seen it collapse in the midle of a situation. And like the above poster said, there are certain things that you can't do with an ASP baton.
You can't use it as a bar in certain control situations. You can't tuck it under your arm and do little "end strikes" in crown situations.
And you can't twirl an ASP while you work a foot beat.
People like to talk about getting the ASP out getting people to back down... Guess what... getting your baton out of the ring will often do the exact same thing.
Yep. The good old wooden straight baton.
I never did like the idea of the collapsible baton. I carried the Koga for many years, then went to the PR 24.
Personal preference: In close in situations such as a bar, with a lot of onlookers in the way, but not creating other problems I really preferred my beaver tail sap.
I definitely liked the PR 24 better than the Koga (or straight stick). I was taught to carry the Koga in the ring, even when in the car. Made getting out quickly a little slower, but not much after you got used to it.
I did this with the PR 24 as well, but it was more cumbersome. If you know how to use the PR24 it gives you tremendous striking power. I think it is one of the best defensive tools that we can carry! But - it takes practice to get really proficient with. And if you are NOT proficient with it, you will either kill somebody, or get it taken away from you and used as a popsicle stick, with YOU being the popsicle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
209, it could be the PR-24S (I think that the name) which is a 2 part retractable baton. There is a push button on the handle. Baton is half as short as normal, carry on the belt as you would a normal PR-24. Remove from ring, press button - bling - full length baton. A couple of forces over here have them
Darkwulfe
08-20-2002, 03:53 AM
Just get an OPN and call it good.
rugbyman
08-21-2002, 08:51 PM
We have recently "moved" from the PR24 to the ASP baton with the major rationale being staff were not skilled enough to adequately use the PR24, it being predominately a martial arts weapon.
Also the ASP is a lot easier to carry so you dont get cops running out of the station without their baton.
Having said that the admin are now bringing back the PR24 as we have been caught with our pants down at a few mob violence situations. :rolleyes:
Just curious- when you have a mob violence incident, do you use helmets and shields? If, so-is a PR-24 better than a riot baton?
rugbyman
08-22-2002, 03:33 AM
Hi 209.....we use helmets and shields if we have time but the admin here sometimes think that "tooling up" too much incites disorder as much as represses it. That view is changing though.
Thankfully large scale violence is rare. Mostly a couple of demonstrations that turned nasty and we werent prepared for it. Regs say we are not allowed to carry OC spray at demos.
We have only had the PR24, unknown re riot batons.
Cant beat a good scrap to get the espirit de corps going <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
PeteBroccolo
08-22-2002, 08:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rugbyman:
<strong>Having said that the admin are now bringing back the PR24 as we have been caught with our pants down at a few mob violence situations. :rolleyes: </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was it the pants-down that started the riots? If so, hopefully it WAS the admin types that did it?
Sorry, I had to ask!
rugbyman
08-22-2002, 08:57 PM
Understood Pete...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Mack811
08-22-2002, 10:00 PM
"I prefer the good old wooden straight baton."
10-4 Sparky! I have an heirloom baton that I can not carry.
Personal opinion...the PR -24 is the product of some geek that never had to fight people for real. Anyone that has gone hands on knows that some of the cool stuff you learn in training goes out the window on the street. No one stands still while you apply some come along technique. Batons are meant to strike. Rodney King got hit how many times by PR-24's? The side handle made those blows ineffective.
I go OC first, if that does not work...bad guy will know he has been hit. I am not a great ASP fan either (too many parts, I like my tools simple) but policy says I carry it. I wear mine on the left side, canted forward where it is visible. Think about it, the old batons hung low and could be seen.I see guys wearing the ASP behind their back. I want the "customers" to know I have options. I prefer to deter violence if possible.
I have carried both and prefer the PR24 even though it requires more training. To remain proficient my previous dept used to train us on them for 2 hrs every month. I now carry the ASP and if I had my choice ( I don't), I would carry a PR24 expandable, as shown below. It has the best of both worlds, it sits on your belt but is designed to defend against three attackers. There is just so much more you can do with the PR24. I'm not surprised that people make complaints against their use, they are very effective as an intermediate impact tool.
<a href="http://www.batons.com/pr/fun.htm" target="_blank">http://www.batons.com/pr/fun.htm</a>
<small>[ 08-24-2002, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: skippy ]</small>
Chimi_WS6
08-28-2002, 03:49 PM
I'm in the Academy right now and all of the agencies here use the PR-24. That's also what they are training us with in the Academy. I still haven't got the hang of it completely, but the more I use it the better I get. It's a good weapon. The instructor is amazing with it. He twirls that around like nothing. I practice in my free time and the more you practice with it, the better you'll get. We've used an ASP a few times also, but I prefer the PR-24. Then again, that may be because that's what we use the most often and what I've come accustomed to using.
<small>[ 09-26-2002, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: klar ]</small>
manny78
08-30-2002, 04:30 PM
Here we have the ASP but since I was trained (private lessons years before) with the expandable PR-24 I would say the last one offers more possibilities. Way easier to choke someone with a PR-24. But as you guys mentionned it all depends on your training and personal prefenrences.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mack811:
<strong>
Personal opinion...the PR -24 is the product of some geek that never had to fight people for real. Anyone that has gone hands on knows that some of the cool stuff you learn in training goes out the window on the street.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee Mack, I guess I was wrong. I thought I'd been in a tussle or two. :rolleyes: :p <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
If you know how to use the PR24 it is one fantastic tool. If you don't, you just might become a popsicle with the PR24 as the stick. :D
Watchman
08-30-2002, 10:47 PM
I love the PR24.
Years ago in my quest for a blackbelt we had to do several weapons katas to achieve rank. I picked the bo, the katana and the PR24.
I used to do weapons katas with 2 of them and they were awesome. They do take a bit of training, one can hurt himself if he is not careful.
We would train by hitting a rubber post. Many of the techniques are different when you actually hit something as it changes the balance and rebound somewhat.
As for hooking, with practice they can be tough, very tough and a vey effective CQB weapon. One thing that I think is not stressed enough in training is the end hits to pressure points.
I think the biggest drawback to the PR24 is that most people do not train adequatley with it. Lots of people train for a few hours and then they might not even use the thing for a few years. If it fails them they blame it on the weapon itself instead of the technique. Unfortuunatley, many depts.,mine included, have pretty much put them up in favor of the ASP.
If it were up to me and I had to go break up a baroom brawl, I'd take the PR24 .
Sig220Man
08-31-2002, 01:25 AM
As an LASD academy graduate, I was originally trained in the PR-24, since that's their impact weapon of choice for academy recruits (deputies can later upgrade to the ASP if they wish).
My department allows either the PR or the traditional straight stick. At first, I thought the straight stick guys were simply "old fashioned" and weren't willing to upgrade to something better.
However, when the opportunity came up a couple years later to transition to the straight stick, I decided to give it a try. I'd only be out 3 days (on department time) and a few sore muscles if I decided the PR was better.
Well, I was surprised. I found myself much more proficient with the straight stick after the first 8 hours, than I was with the PR-24 at the end of my academy training. I could hear that my hits were that much harder.
I guess the department dinosaurs were right all long...newer isn't necessarily better.
I have used the PR-24 and the ASP and the newer AUTOLOCK batons. I agree the PR-24 is fine if you get loads of training, the take downs look the business when a trainer does it but end up a complete mess when you try it.
The ASP is basic and easy to use its fine, but retracts when you dont want it to and is a pain to retract when you do want it too.
By far the best I have used is the AUTOLOCK, its a basic straight collapsable baton like the ASP, so its simple but it has a handy button on the top to press in to retract. It has a nice thick tip on the "hitting end" too for more impact too.
Regarding public order work with helmets and sheilds, forget the PR-24, its a complete waste of time, since most of the moves are two handed and you have a shield in one hand, you are left with a stick in your hand you cant use.
Check out the AUTOLOCK.
KJT
Mack811
09-05-2002, 09:36 PM
Ok Don (and others) I did not mean to offend anyone. Please accept my sincere apology. I'm sorry that you like the PR-24 :p
Hey this is one of those personal prefrence issues. I like this, you like that.
My thinking is this: a baton is an IMPACT weapon. What is the most effective and efficent way to deliver that impact?
I am sure that those of you who like the 24 and are trained in its use can do wonderful things with it.
I had the training. I don't think much of the weapon. I like to keep my tools simple. That's just me.
Lot of people here with more experience that like them. I will defer to them in the interest of respecting my elders and maintaining peace.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mack811:
<strong>Lot of people here with more experience that like them. I will defer to them in the interest of respecting my elders and maintaining peace.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's better ya young whippersnapper you! :p <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D
No offence taken, I was just ribbing you a little. And you ARE right, it's a matter of personal choice. :)
Zamboni
09-07-2002, 02:54 PM
I've never used the PR-24 but I have the used the ASP one time. And that is the last time I will ever use it for any reason other than breaking out windows or digging through trash which is the only good uses it has. Hitting someone with an ASP (in a allowed area) is literally like hitting an elephant with a flyswatter. It annoys the person and ****es them off and just escalates the situation.
The one time I used my ASP I got in several very good shots to the guys common peronial. Pictures taken just hours later showed massive bruising. Unfortunately the guy just looked at me with an OW look on his face and proceeded to try to kill me. It hurt him but it has no stopping power. Its not big enough to do that unless your hitting a small person.
The "pucker factor" goes up considerably when they look at you and smile and say "Was that your BEST shot?" I've never had that happen with the PR24. I have had that happen with the Koga.
Mack811
09-09-2002, 03:51 PM
Truth of the matter is I don't really like the ASP either, moving parts and all.
I would carry my Daddy's hardwood baton if the brass would let me.
ateamer
09-10-2002, 03:19 AM
Get rid of that little ASP and get a real baton. The Winchester is heavy, thick and has most of the weight in the top half, so it hits waaay harder than the ASPtoy.
I still miss "Old Hickory" and keep it in my locker. Some of the best batons were the custom cocobola or ironwood models, but they cost a pretty penny. Like my Winchester didn't.
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