Polygraph Problems?

[KarlBerry]

Hello Im trying to get on a local department here and I took the polygraph recently however I got a call a few days later to take another one what does this mean?

The lady said I showed reactions to the Drug use and Theft. I took one for another local department and the guy examiner said the same thing but I passed that one so I figure it was just a scare tactic. I only tried weed once at 15 which was 9 years ago and the biggest thing Ive stolen was a stapler from an employer so some of my cop friends say that I maybe look too "clean" does anybody have any advice?

[Thek9]

The polygraph is an investigative tool. Relax, relax then relax. Be honest. Don't get rattled.Say the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

T-

[beachcop05]

The polygraph is garbage in my opinion. I've taken three of them and passed all three, however I know there have good applicants with my dept who have been disqualified by the polygraph. It is an investigative tool, but there is a reason why it is not allowed in court.

[ifineed2]

That thing only tests your physiological responses to certain stimuli, if you're a naturally nervous person you've got a significantly higher probability of failing.

[Code Seven]

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[ifineed2]

You really don't know what the polygraph is about, huh? Hint: As others have mentioned, it's an "investigative tool."

REALLY!?!? I thought if I read it on wiki it had to be true!!!

Ok, in all honesty I know enough about the poly to know what it does and doesn't do...I'm no subject matter expert, but I did spend some time in college studying the psychology of the polygraph giving me just enough insight to understand the process. I'm not going to argue over it's applicability for LE purposes, that's like arguing politics or religion...you're always wrong in someone's eyes.

The polygraph test is based on the premise that when a lie is told, there is a measurable biological stress level associated with the act. These reactions are believed to be an alteration in the blood pressure, heart rate, respiration and skin conductivity. These changes are also related to anxiety, stress and excitement, which is where the fallibility of the poly comes into play.

You're right in that I have not administered one, you're wrong in thinking I know nothing about them...but thanks for trying.

[k91376]

Hello Im trying to get on a local department here and I took the polygraph recently however I got a call a few days later to take another one what does this mean?

The lady said I showed reactions to the Drug use and Theft. I took one for another local department and the guy examiner said the same thing but I passed that one so I figure it was just a scare tactic. I only tried weed once at 15 which was 9 years ago and the biggest thing Ive stolen was a stapler from an employer so some of my cop friends say that I maybe look too "clean" does anybody have any advice?

I had the same thing happen to me on the poly portion of teseting with some agencies. It is nothing more then an investigative tool / interview technique to determine what type of person you are. With that said it weighs heavily within the hiring process and if you show signs of stress and or have inconclusive results is does not bode well. I did not get some LE jobs I had applied to in the past for that reason. Nothing I lied about just was not able to relax druing the thing. But, like someone said if your naturally nervous during stuff like that your already at a disadvatnge. Just be honest and try and relax. You'll get pass it everyone does. Or just become a really good liar.... :eek: :D

[Code Seven]

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[Up_On_Base]

You really don't know what the polygraph is about, huh? Hint: As others have mentioned, it's an "investigative tool."

+1 IMO

I passed a few poly's and never had an issue. I chatted with the person who gave my poly about a year later once I was OTJ, he laughed and said sorry about that, I tried to make you break.

Another guy in my class had the same guy, he was still pis$ed at him, its all a mind game.

[PeeOwed]

I don't think the original poster was really hoping to spark a debate on the merits of the polygraph. We all know there's at least one site dedicated to its suitability as an "investigative tool" within LE and Nat. Security personnel screening processes as well as the very notion of biometric lie detection. My two cents, polygraphs are about as useful an "investigative tool" in the hiring process as phrenology would have been in the early 1900s. Examiners would have even used the same langugage (i.e. "this bump is telling me you're deceptive"). And given how the scientific debate around biometric lie detection has evolved well past the polygraph machine, I think phrenology is a more apt tool comparison than say wheel guns to semis.

To the original poster's point, I agree that the healthy approach or way to remain "sane" during this process is to treat the whole process as an attempt to rattle your cage. You go in there, tell them the truth and if you're challenged on anything, keep your cool. Despite some of the drama allegedly staged in a lot of interviews, keep in mind, the whole process is supposed to be impersonal, so keep it that way on your end. Keep in mind your polygraph investigator knows nothing about you. I'm not sure how your local PD does it, but generally across the fed, polygraphs are conducted before your background investigation paperwork has gone anywhere. To repeat, it's nothing personal, so just stick with the truth in a calm, professional manner.

If your resulting data does wind up being read in a manner that suggests your unsuitable for that department, and you're confident you conducted yourself through the process with integrity, I'd walk away from the experience with a "it's not you, it's them" attitude. After all, you indicated you've passed a polygraph before for another dept.

Now more generally to this thread, I don't know how common it is, but we all know polygraph failure does happen and people's candidacies are terminated
as a result. I think telling the OP not to worry about it, just be straight up, etc., and he'll do fine is all well and good; but if he (or she) is the so-called "nervous" personality put ill at ease at the very process and simply can't pass this one, peace of mind about the larger repercussions of a failure may be in order. If someone has a polygraph failure with one department, will that hurt his or her chances at other departments? My guess it would depend on the departments, but if anyone with experience in this area could clarify, it'd probably be more valuable to the thread than a census of which poster likes, which don't like, and which don't care about polygraphs.

[ifineed2]

You really don't know what the polygraph is about, huh? Hint: As others have mentioned, it's an "investigative tool."

Did you just copy and paste your original reply to my message? You obviously didn't respond to what I wrote back.


Peeowned I completely agree with you, that's a very good question and one I've often wondered myself.

[INTHEAIRCOP]

Poly was always a problem for me. I failed a few in the past because I am high stressed. But I got a job after a while. I hate those polys and never will take one agiin for a LE job.

[Code Seven]

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[ops]

Picture your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband naked during every question asked, and bite your tongue after answering the question. It removes any anxiety over the question asked because it distracts your brain from the other stimuli. Just kidding......Just be honest and you'll be GTG

[shortcop]

Polygraphs are based on the premise that you BELIEVE that they actually work. On most pre-employment polygraph exams, there are two types of questions: relevant questions (the ones that matter) and known lie-control questions. The known lie-control questions are the questions that the examiner expects you to have a reaction to, so that he can compare the result from that question to the results from the relevant questions. The examiner will often go to great lengths to "psych you out" in order to make sure that you will react to the lie-control questions.

For example, the examiner will say something like "Every one of our agents/officers/whatever could honestly answer NO to every single one of the questions I'm about to ask you on this test!!". Then, on the test, he might ask: "Have you ever hurt someone that you care about?". Well, of course the answer to that question is going to be "yes". But, regardless of whether or not you lie, the question is still going to worry you and cause a reaction. Then, when the examiner asks you a relevant question: (i.e. Have you lied about anything on your application?) if your reaction to that questions equals or exceeds your reaction to the control question, then he assumes that you are lying. Its a little more complicated than that, but that is the jist of how it works.

[Code Seven]

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[shortcop]

Some people here are focusing too much on the physiological and mechanical aspects of the polygraph...viewing the polygraph too much as some sort of mechanical device...

That is exactly what it is, though. The main thing that I think people need to understand is how the test is administered. There tend to be a lot of questions on here about polygraphs along the lines of "why did the examiner say this? does it mean that I failed?" or "Why did he keep harping on this one issue?!"

The main purpose of the polygraph is to scare you into divulging every little detail about your past. You could make the argument that you should do that anyway, but the Feds obviously don't expect you to of your own choosing so most agencies require a polygraph. Often times, they will also tell you not to research anything about the polygraph because they realize that your belief in its accuracy is what makes you susceptible to it. In other words, if you don't think that polygraph actually detects lies, then you're not going to show a reaction on the test when you lie. Unfortunately, this means that you won't show a reaction on the lie-control questions either which completely throws off the test. Remember, these are the questions that the examiner EXPECTS you to have a reaction to. This is why many honest people (as much as 50%, in fact) actually "fail" the polygraph test. Its also why many times they will require one or more "retests" or why the examiner often nags you about one particular subject. If there are no reactions at all, then he won't have enough data to determine whether or not you are being "truthful."

[Code Seven]

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[johnsta]

I am going on my fourth in a week....I am clean as well, and answering honestly, but have been told I keep showing deception towards narcotics use...I don't understand it, especially when I truly am being honest.

[Code Seven]

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[montin]

Yeah, sounds weird, and I think the poly also isn't too accurate because a person can be totally honest and be a bit anxious to get it over with and that come off as a peak in the chart, and you could be developing some anxiety when the questions about narcotics are being asked.

[the constant]

Was told by someone who has taken it that the goal is to rattle you in to an admission.

Any signs of deception found on the poly can't be used against you (per se), but they could get you back in the chair for another round of poly or could cause the BI to go back and dig some more about you.

[shortcop]

Was told by someone who has taken it that the goal is to rattle you in to an admission.

Any signs of deception found on the poly can't be used against you (per se), but they could get you back in the chair for another round of poly or could cause the BI to go back and dig some more about you.

Oh they can definitely be used against you. Not criminally, no, but if you fail the test you are removed from consideration for the position. You are right, though, in the fact that the point is to scare you into admitting everything you've ever done wrong. Anything you confess to during a pre-employment polygraph is also admissible in court, so you CAN be charged.

[ri1980sp]

Oh they can definitely be used against you. Not criminally, no, but if you fail the test you are removed from consideration for the position. You are right, though, in the fact that the point is to scare you into admitting everything you've ever done wrong. Anything you confess to during a pre-employment polygraph is also admissible in court, so you CAN be charged.

[ifineed2]

Well if you're going to go there, at some point everyone will admit to anything...whether they did or did not do something...but now we're talking about a different level of interrogation.

[sco0437]

Polygraphs are a joke.. they just want to see how much info they can get out of you.

Overeact to the control questions on purpose.. like is the room green, are we in the month of June, etc... do this by holding your breath or breathing faster..

Then relax on the relevant questions.

The examiner just compares the "control" response to the responses on the important questions.. Obviously, you are going to show more of a response when you are trying hard to do so...

There you go=== Pass

[sco0437]

My dad is a retired state police detective and he said give him 2 hours with certain people and they will admit to things they didn't do.

Wow, he must be very proud....

Nothing gets me more excited than hearing others violating individuals civil rights. Thats why I was a cop, went to law school, and soon to be criminal defense atty. :)

[sjhogs3333]

This thread is interesting to me simply because I studied the polygraph (technically, the physiograph) in my vertebrate physiology class. I have no opinion on whether or not they should/not be used in pre-employment. At that point you have accepted a temporary offer of employment and legally are at the mercy of the department, so there really isn't anything wrong with using it in supplement to a BI. However, from a strictly objective point of view (not my opinion), the basis for the polygraph is a pseudo science and the results are inconclusive at best. Everyone reacts to lying differently and some have been lying through their teeth their whole lives and don't react at all. One would be hard pressed to find a scientist worth his weight in gold who would agree that an investigator could conclude falsehood or deception in answers just based on HR, perspiration, voice fluctuation, etc. Moreover, the sheer shock of hearing the rather intrusive questions may be what is physiologically affecting an individual, not the truthfulness of the response. As my professor put it, the physiograph is based on the premise of "suspected" links to lying "that have never been proven".

[PeeOwed]

My dad is a retired state police detective and he said give him 2 hours with certain people and they will admit to things they didn't do.

Wow, he must be very proud....

Nothing gets me more excited than hearing others violating individuals civil rights. Thats why I was a cop, went to law school, and soon to be criminal defense atty. :)

Is this thread really devolving into "My Dad (or my self-righteousness) can beat up your Dad?"

[Green_Latern21]

Earlier this year I failed a poly test for the FBI. I was then emliminated from their application process.

They asked 5 questions and they said I had a reaction to the question regarding narcotics. I told the examiner I told the truth and said I can't explain why I spiked. I divulged all my drug use on my security application (marijuana). He interrogated me for awhile and then I basically told him that if I failed the test, then I failed the test...it is what it is, and I had nothing else to say about it.

I didn't admit to anything (like I said, I admitted my drug use prior to the exam), and didn't change my story...yet I had to go home and tell my home that I didn't get the job because the FBI says I'm a liar.

It was the single most humiliating experience of my life. I felt completely embarressed and ashamed, it took awhile to get over it...I'm still a bit nervous about taking another one.

The problem is now is that I'm so gunshy over the polygraph, I'm afraid I'm going to keep failing them.

I've heard from a few people that the FBI poly standards and requirements are a bit different from other agencies/departments. Right now I'm just focusing on getting into a State/Local department, but poly's will still be a requirement.

Hopefully they will be understanding and not eliminate me as soon as I tell them I failed a previous poly, or just assume I'm lying.

I'm really worried this ruined my career hopes.

[Green_Latern21]

Here is the kicker.

They told me I had a reaction to the narcotics question. However, I didn't have a reaction to the questions "Have you lied on your application". Obviously, if I lied about my drug use (on the poly), I would be lying on my application...because thats where I admitted my usage.

Well, it doesn't take a rockert scientist to see that the test was flawed.

Question 1) Did you lie or conceal any previous drug use on your application.

Answer: No

Question 2) Have you lied on your application

Answer: No

Well, they say I'm lying on question 1, but not question 2. OBVIOUSLY, that can't be true.

The poly is a joke. I've obsessed over this for months and I honestly think the examiner just didn't like me. I was 5 minutes later because of a snowstorm that turned the 15 minute drive to the field office into a 1 hr 15 drive. I was all shook up when I went in because I was so rushed and worried about being late. I told him the reason why, seemed cool at the time.

I think he just was ****ed and decided to fail me.

[BigWill2876]

Like any tool if used poorly (like a hammar striking a nail at an angle) it will not work or give you a "bent" nail.
There are too many factors that go into a "test" that can give an improper conclusion from the operator to make them accurate. The operator can be poorly trained, have racial/gender prejudices, been out the night prior, etc.

Not the least factor is that a true pathological person that can lie without a reaction will pass !
Add in drugs that any person being tested can take prior to the test that mask the physical actions that the "machine" alleges to find and you have;

G I G O

Garbage In Garbage Out.

[sco0437]

Like I have already said, if you are very good at using countermeasures, very very few examiners will even notice anything.. trust me its not rocket science...

thats why most examiners will use NYPD Blue style tactics to scare the hell out of you and try to obtain more info from you... this is even AFTER you are telling the truth...

[johnsta]

Perhaps he meant with a couple of agencies...I doubt one agency would reschedule and have him tested an addition 3 times in a week.

Nope, All with the same agency...I don't understand it. Whether you guys believe me or not, I am being completely honest...this the weird thing.

[Code Seven]

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[sco0437]

yeah he was probably telling you that you failed just to see your reaction-- basically lying to you that you failed the test... then he probably asked you to come clean with the "truth".

Do you really want to work for a department that employs people like that?

Dont give up your integrity to kiss their A$%$

[sjhogs3333]

Here's a story from a very good of friend of mine who was just hired by a department. This story, however, stems from a different department he was also applying to. During his poly the examiner was really hammering him with all honor/integrity questions ("have you ever lied to ____ " type questions). At the end of the exam the investigator told my friend that there were huge problems with his reaction/results to the integrity questions and was grilling him, hoping that he would divulge more information. My friend stood by his guns and maintained everything he said during the examination. After this post-exam interrogation by the examiner, he turned off the audio/visual recording equipment in the room, smiled at my friend and said "Don't worry, you'll pass just fine."

Just thought it would be a reassuring story for all those out there who are a little worried about the poly. Be true to yourself and all will fall into place.

[Applesauce]

I had a poly test a while ago but i failed it because according to the examiner, I was lying about my previous criminal history and drug questions...

I have never touched a drug in my life and i believe the reason for not passing 'criminal history' was because i downloaded music and i forgot to tell them (Making me nervous during the test)

I had two interviews, the first one was with two assistant chiefs. I expected the first interview to have questions like "So...why do you want to be a police officer?", etc, when in reality, it was more like a police interrogation. Thinking of everything i've done in my past 21 years is extremely hard to do on the spot...So in the second interview which was with the BI and the polygraph, they gave me a hard time about why i didn't tell the interviewers in the first interview about this past situation with my friend where i was in the prescence of him using MJ. I honestly forgot to mention it in the first interview...which is exactly what i told them in the second interview, but they did not believe that at all. My mind was going at 1000/mph in both interviews.

Anyways ive been thinking about this way too much and im worrying if this will hurt my chances when applying to other departments..any advice?

[Code Seven]

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[Applesauce]

How should "they" distinguish between you, and someone who dishonestly says that he "honestly forget to mention it"?

It's easier to just disqualify you, especially when there are tons of other applicants who did not forget. Plus, when you're working in the field, you will be expected to remember details in the midst of very stressful situations. If you can't do that in a controlled interview within the four walls of a room and two of the "good guys," do you think you'd be able to do it in a real-life situation with life and death consequences?

Well I am definitely able to deal with stressful situations. I've worked in a restaurant for a few years now with people yelling at me left and right etc etc (obviously not a life-threatening situation) but it helps me deal with people in general. Its that experience that prepares me to take on much more stressful situations. I want this job more than anything and I can't picture myself in any other career. I was discouraged by failing the polygraph but I really don't have anything to hide.

What approach should i take for the future PD interviews? They will obviously ask me about the previous interviews and polygraph...

[sco0437]

I would say NEVER disclose info that is not in your personal history statement. If you do, most likely that either intentional or non-intentionally withheld info, will fail you.

Once you have answered questions when hooked up-- NEVER admit to anything once the examiner comes back and says or tells you are withholding info... that would be an almost auto-failure in my opinion

[maybeFBIatfDEA]

I had a poly test a while ago but i failed it because according to the examiner, I was lying about my previous criminal history and drug questions...

I have never touched a drug in my life and i believe the reason for not passing 'criminal history' was because i downloaded music and i forgot to tell them (Making me nervous during the test)

I had two interviews, the first one was with two assistant chiefs. I expected the first interview to have questions like "So...why do you want to be a police officer?", etc, when in reality, it was more like a police interrogation. Thinking of everything i've done in my past 21 years is extremely hard to do on the spot...So in the second interview which was with the BI and the polygraph, they gave me a hard time about why i didn't tell the interviewers in the first interview about this past situation with my friend where i was in the prescence of him using MJ. I honestly forgot to mention it in the first interview...which is exactly what i told them in the second interview, but they did not believe that at all. My mind was going at 1000/mph in both interviews.

Anyways ive been thinking about this way too much and im worrying if this will hurt my chances when applying to other departments..any advice?


Downloaded music? Seriously, is that a question on the poly? It seems that would disqualify everyone under the age of 35 years old.

[Code Seven]

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[lemmein71]

I've taken two polygraphs for the same department in different years. The first year I "failed". The second year I "passed". The second time I was considerably more relaxed. I ansewered all questions truthfully.