Body Armour Trama Packs

[Red5]

Which is better soft or hard trama inserts for ballistic vests?

Scott

[unhappycop]

I've used a level IIa undershirt vest for several years and with the you-bewt fabric carrier it is really good (a bit hot with the velcro type carrier and a t-shirt underneath.

As for the tactical vests with the ceramic insert - TOO HEAVY for operational use. NSW Police have 2 of these tac (military style) vests on issue to each police car, but they are no good for day to day stuff.

The reality is that sn N.I.J rated IIa or III vest should stop most if not all handgun rounds and if the P is popping at you with a military rifle, don't stick around and rely on your vest to stop it. http://www.officer.com/ubb/frown.gif Chances are the vests have been incorrectly stored http://www.officer.com/ubb/mad.gif, lying flat in the car and the ceramic plate is going to be cracked/warped/buggered anyway...

[SWAT1]

I'd have to say soft. We did a lot of trials over here and settled on a Company called 'Armourshield' The team vests are 25 layers of Kevlar with the soft trauma insert and as unhappy said a ceramic plate insert. The Plain Clothes vests are 17 layers with the same Trauma pack built in. I've seen one guy hit with a lightweight vest on and the Yrauma pack did a good job of dispersing the 'Blunt Trauma'. Hope this helps?
Be Safe!


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'British by Birth, English by the grace of God!'

[Red5]

This helped a little, I wear a level IIA vest by SafariLand with a soft trauma pack insert on the front panel. I have seen both hard steel, hard ceramic, and soft style trauma packs. I was actually looking to see if there trauma packs are rated simialiar to vests or what can a soft, hard, ceramic inserts supposed to stop.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Red5 (edited 02-12-2001).]

[SWAT1]

The heavy cermamic plate I only ever wore on extremely high risk operations. It will stop 7.62 Nato rounds and even rifled slug. But it weighed about 12 pounds! Hope that helps.The actual soft trauma pack was an integral part of the armour not a detachable extra it consisted of a soft foam sheet and a soft perspex type panel which disipated the energy when the round impacted the armour,obviously the trauma pack was worn next to the body http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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'British by Birth, English by the grace of God!'

[DMS 525]

Hard trauma plates have a tendency to make a bullet hitting it "splatter." It can riccochet off and hit someone else, or hit you in the throat or chin.

No matter what kind of vest you are wearing, at the first sign of a gunfight, get behind some cover! They don't make any armor for your head.

[John from Maryland]

A neighboring county did some of the research that resulted in the trend toward soft trauma plates. The question that I asked then, and still ask today, is if anyone has a documented incident of a hard trauma plate resulting in injury to an officer.

The Prince George's County PD tests seemed designed to find fault with hard plates. There seemed to be some risk if a suspect fired at you from an extreme angle (most probably a proned out suspect firing almost directly up at you as you approached).

Flip side of this question is what protection a soft trauma plate offers against blunt or edged trauma. Secondly, what is the difference in protection from rifle fire?

[Don]

John,

It seems to me that an officer died in the mid to late eighties from a bullet hitting the hard plate, then either splitting or ricocheting into his jugular vein. My memory being what it is however, I am unable to tell you where, when or who.

I do remember my department bringing out a memo on this and advising us that it would be our own decision on whether or not to put the plate in. I'm sorry that I can't get more specific here.

Apparently the soft trauma plate is something that has been marketed since my retirement. I would be interested in knowing a little more about it.

One of the advertised benefits of the hard plate was protection for edged/pointed instruments. Does the soft plate have this same capability?



[This message has been edited by Don (edited 02-18-2001).]

[SWAT1]

Don
I don't know if we've all been talking at cross purposes here but my own experience of trauma packs is as follows:
The ceramic plate insert is an optional extra that can be inserted to 'upgrade' the ballistic properties of your armour.
Whereas a soft trauma pack is an integral part of the body armour worn next to the body. This simply soaks up the impact of the round hitting the armour and dissipates the effect of 'Blunt Trauma' on the body. It doesn't actually have any ballistic properties.
Whether their is now a soft version of the ceramic plate as an additional extra is also a new one on me.
Stay Safe!

[Sparky]

In NO WAY am I to be considered an authority on this subject, but...from my understanding:

for concealable body armor (or armour for you SWAT1 http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif )

the "soft" insert is basically a wad of extra kevlar layers that add a little protection over your heart area. This was intended (I believe) for officers who wear a low level of armor day to day to be able to have increased protection over their most vital organs.

The "trauma pack", as I know it, is a thin piece of steel or aluminum sheet usually covered in plastic or rubber. It is intended to stop knives and help with impact reduction if shot. It is not intended really to STOP a bullet, but would theoretically give it something extra to penetrate before getting to the kevlar panels, thus, reducing velocity and momentum and reducing trauma somewhat. These thin inserts are usually very lightweight and were intended to help more with knife attacks and elbows to the chest than they were for "golden BB's".

A true "upgrade plate" can be the same small size as the above, or a little larger. They are usually a thicker piece of hardened steel covered by a few layers of kevlar. They usually have a "stand alone" rating, menaing that even without being used in conjunction with a vest, they will defeat certain rounds. Used with a vest, they increased the protected area protection to include some rifle rounds.

Most concealable vests do not accomodate the 12"x12" ceramic panels. Lvl III and IV inserts are HEAVY and very cumbersome. I do not like them for any application where the wearer will have to move much. They are great for helcopter crews, tank crews, squad weapons crews and the like, but (IMNSHO) for even entry team use, they have serious drawbacks...they are big and heavy!! I think they are great to have in case you find yourself in a position to need them, BUT, practically speaking, I prefer no to be wearing so much equipment that I need help getting up if I fall down!!

For anyone really wwanting the real skinny on plates, armor, etc. etc. I would HIGHLY suggest that you contact Armor Holdings and ask for info. Tell themm you have to prepare some information for your agency and they will likely send you a BUNCH of stuff.

IMNSHO, you can take this armor thing too far! Body armor was intended to give you a leg up if you get shot...only meant to prtoect your vital organs (other than your head)...body armor was never meant to be a wearable tank!!!

The best way to avoid getting shot in this business is the time tested method of shooting the baddie FIRST!!

SPEED, SHOCK, AND SUPRISE ACTION
SHOOT, MOVE, AND COMMUNICATE

As for me...I take basic precautions, but in the end....I'm not going to worry too much about getting shot....I'm going to make the other guy worry about me shooting HIM!



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-Sparky

[Don]

Sparky,

Glad you made it back!

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Confession may be good for your soul but it may be bad for your career.
6P1 (retired)

[Red5]

Since I began tis thread... lol http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

I just wanted to know the pros and cons of hard Vs. Soft trauma pack inserts in standard concealable vests.

I personally wear a safariland leve IIA vest with a safariland 12x12 soft trauma pack insert.

I found literature on vests, threat levels, and ratings easily enough. However, I could not find any true ratings or classifications for hard and soft inserts.

One of the officers I work with uses a hard insert but his vest is a military spec. issue. My vest is intended for L.E. use. I find that although my insert seems as if it is less armour than a metal plate it is far superiour comfort wise.

The theory of a bullet glazing of the vest and hard insert does make sense.

Scott

[Sparky]

http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif And glad to be back, Don. Although I can't seem to make it in to the forum as much as I'd like.

As to the matter at hand...

Yes, I am sure that the soft insert is more comfortable than the hard one. That is sort of a gimmie, though.

All of this depends on what type of threat you are likely to come across. Body armor wasn't meant to make you bullett proof, but only to protect your vitals from the most likely threats to increase your chances. You want to be able to stop the round that you carry (many officers are shot with their own weap.) and you want at least front and back coverage. If it's not to uncomfortable, you can get wrap around.

If, in your area or duty, you are likely to run into other threats such as rifles, or knives, then you may want to consider hard plates to help defeat these threats.

Personnaly, when I was a FNG, I was debating the use of the armor plate that came with my vest. Sometimes I wore it, but it was heavy (and it was just the little one for the middle, not a big one). One day I happened to have it on and me and my partner are trying to tie the cuffs on this guy when he decides to break bad on us. He tries the twisty elbow thing and gives me a hard elbow right on the middle of my gut. Now this was a fairly big guy, and even with my vest that elbow woulda hurt...but he hit my plate! We all know how unfunny it is to really smack your funny bone right? Well, this guy let out a yelp like a girl and all the fight went out of him like a fleeing felon out of his tennis shoes....

All because he smacked that plate...now up until that point i had never considered that tyupe of protection from my plate...but from then on my mind was made up and i always wore my plate. Not for rifle bullets and knives so much (although the knife protection did come in handy once)...but mainly for the protection from people socking me in the gut.

Just my two-cents worth. In the end...whatever you feel comfortable with...

As far as the ricochet thing....that would be about impossible. I've never worried about it. It's like saying you don't want to wear a seatbelt in a car because you don't want to burn up. The chances are much higher that the belt will save yor life from keeping you from going through the windshield than the possiblilty that you'll be trapped in a burning car.

hope this helped....

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-Sparky