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View Full Version : Pat Down/Person Search Technique?



ExSDSO
05-31-2009, 03:08 AM
So I was watching another officer pat down/search a guy at work the other night and I saw that he had his foot right under and between the guys legs?

Anyone do that? If so is it safe? My opinion is: No I dont think thats a safe way to pat someone down.

I honestly dont remember if that was taught to me or not, but I dont do it.

tko51
05-31-2009, 03:12 AM
when we learned this technique in detac, we were taught not to have our foot between the legs of the subject. it becomes a safety issue because the subject would be able to take down the officer by sweeping/hooking the leg of the officer. i am not sure what the exact term of the prisoner/subject's technique.

at least i think this is where you are going by pointing this out.

Blizzination
05-31-2009, 05:29 PM
I was taught not to do that. LASO Sergeant got his knee removed from the socket, and medically retired, I was told.

I use koga...standing modified 99% of the time. But that's just me.

madchiken
05-31-2009, 06:04 PM
The thinking behind it is you have the subject in a position of disadvantage (legs spread wide, off balance, etc) and if the subject tries to pull away or tighten up your foot is right there to sweep their leg for a takedown. I haven't seen it taught in a few years though.

I guess if someone knows what they are doing (BJJ, MMA, etc) they would be able to use that against you, but have never heard of it happening.

KataKlysmic
05-31-2009, 11:11 PM
when we learned this technique in detac, we were taught not to have our foot between the legs of the subject. it becomes a safety issue because the subject would be able to take down the officer by sweeping/hooking the leg of the officer. i am not sure what the exact term of the prisoner/subject's technique.

at least i think this is where you are going by pointing this out.I believe it's called the Folsom roll.

KataKlysmic
05-31-2009, 11:13 PM
When I search out inmates at my facility I always go into the interview stance/boxing stance.

Left foot forward, right back.

I then grab them by their elbows as taught in my academy then I go to lock up their hands.

eagleI
06-01-2009, 12:00 AM
Isn't part of the old modified FBI style? If they start to resist you unlock their knee & take them down.?? Sounds familiar from the academy but that was a long time ago. (And my department DT intructors told us to forget everything we learned at the academy.)

KataKlysmic
06-01-2009, 12:19 AM
Isn't part of the old modified FBI style? If they start to resist you unlock their knee & take them down.?? Sounds familiar from the academy but that was a long time ago. (And my department DT intructors told us to forget everything we learned at the academy.)lol.

"Forget what you learned in the Academy"

That's why I brought Defensive Tactics with Flashlights by John G. Peters.

Defensive Tactics: Modern Arrest & Control techniques for today's Police Warrior.

Two Grossman books: On killing and On Combat.

Great books especially the first two, those two books contained techniques that weren't taught in my academy.

Jrdeputy
06-01-2009, 11:11 PM
what he might have seen is what's called the Koga Method of defensive tactics. FBI method has many faults. I've been thru both LASD and LAPD ACT and can tell you that Koga is a very efficient way to control suspects. THe concept is to always have the suspect's body in contact with yours so you could feel him "move" or try to "roll" away from you. When the person's foot is between the legs, you maintain control of the suspects hands behind their head, and keep them canted backwards towards you so you can perform and takedown if necessary. Yes your gun side will be next to the suspect, but they can't grab your gun without the use of their hands. For those who are unfamiliar with the style will criticize, but i assure you its a legit form of ACT(arrest control tacts)

They teach this method at Rio HOndo academy by the way...

hbliam
06-02-2009, 03:13 AM
They teach this method at Rio HOndo academy by the way...

And Long Beach

Jrdeputy
06-02-2009, 08:58 AM
Hey bro...its actually "hap ki do"...its w/ a "p" :p
just lettin you know...cuz i read korean
Im comfortable w/ koga..but just don't practice it cuz im on probation and don't wanna attract attention to myself. But when im free n clear, i'll go back to koga :p

Blizzination
06-02-2009, 03:14 PM
what he might have seen is what's called the Koga Method of defensive tactics. FBI method has many faults. I've been thru both LASD and LAPD ACT and can tell you that Koga is a very efficient way to control suspects. THe concept is to always have the suspect's body in contact with yours so you could feel him "move" or try to "roll" away from you. When the person's foot is between the legs, you maintain control of the suspects hands behind their head, and keep them canted backwards towards you so you can perform and takedown if necessary. Yes your gun side will be next to the suspect, but they can't grab your gun without the use of their hands. For those who are unfamiliar with the style will criticize, but i assure you its a legit form of ACT(arrest control tacts)

They teach this method at Rio HOndo academy by the way...

When did you go to the Hondo?

Mike Adrid tore me a new a-hole for putting my foot on the inside of someone's leg. I respectfully disagree that this is the correct application of koga.

Jrdeputy
06-02-2009, 10:58 PM
you put your foot in between susps legs after you hold onto their hands behind their head, push their lower back to cant them back...then you sorta horse stance and go thru your search.

Adrid's a good dude. Your foot doesnt need to break the plane of the suspects feet...but your foot is indeed between. :rolleyes:

Garbage Man
06-03-2009, 10:01 AM
The heads on the back of your head technique is supposed to end with the guy being pushed way off balance with your week hand then you quickly step in with your strong side to keep him off balance. Problem has always been that to do it safely (To avoid the Folsom roll and other nastiness) you have to do it quickly, forcefully and really tweak the guy up. Many officer find that just impractical for most search situations especially consent searches. If you have enough PC to jack the guy all around you might as well just hand cuff him.

So instead they do a modified version where they stand back and bend the guy just a little, but that has all kinds of problems too. As a general rule I like to have someone else with me when I go hands on with people because there really is no perfect technique. With a partner as son as he gets froggy shove him forward, back up and let you partner go stick time.

As a quick funny I once had a partner shove a guy onto the ground cuz he was geting squirmy, the suspect laid on the ground and pleaded to me "Hey, she shoved me onto the ground." I had to laugh and yell "Well whose side do you think I'm on? Do you notice anything similar about the way we are dressed?"

Blizzination
06-03-2009, 01:13 PM
you put your foot in between susps legs after you hold onto their hands behind their head, push their lower back to cant them back...then you sorta horse stance and go thru your search.

Adrid's a good dude. Your foot doesnt need to break the plane of the suspects feet...but your foot is indeed between. :rolleyes:

Mmmmm... I see what you're saying now. I had a different "foot in between the feet" picture in my head... I concede...I get what you're saying now. What you described is exactly how I do my searches... I also do the other...which of course I can't remember now. Where the susp has one arm on the head, and the other arm is bowed out...the "lazy c?" I dont remember the exact term for the hold... have to go back through my ACT book and check...

Adrid's one of the only things I miss about the Hondo...he was a great ACT instructor. I had the opportunity to roll with him in between instruction....I still haven't recovered :cool:

Garbage Man
06-03-2009, 04:43 PM
I also do the other...which of course I can't remember now. Where the susp has one arm on the head, and the other arm is bowed out...the "lazy c?" I dont remember the exact term for the hold... have to go back through my ACT book and check...

:

c grip postition of advantage

McGruff
06-03-2009, 06:17 PM
And Long Beach

Rio has two of their LB instructors teaching Koga.

Blizzination
06-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Rio has two of their LB instructors teaching Koga.

Is that the male and female asian duo?

Copp'rPenny
06-03-2009, 06:30 PM
Rio has two of their LB instructors teaching Koga.

I guess they gotta keep busy as there is no academy scheduled for LBPD. :(

McGruff
06-04-2009, 12:07 PM
Is that the male and female asian duo?

You know it! As sweet and innocent she may look, I know she could kick some major a-double-s.

Blizzination
06-04-2009, 02:07 PM
You know it! As sweet and innocent she may look, I know she could kick some major a-double-s.

They look like it... to be honest... I wasn't that thrilled with how they graded.... my buddy and I were doing our ACT test (Redman)

which, side story..sucked in and of itself. I'm a fairly slender guy. I mean, I can hold my own. But I got partnered up with the 6'3 250lb redman boxer...which was awesome. The guy told me "You must be Irish, you take lot of punches and stay up." At least, I think that's what he said... I don't really remember, as I had a brain hemmorage.. methinks.

But I digress. My partner was wailing on that redman with his silly foam baton. Well, redman didn't want to go down, so he threw his baton and just started...well, wailing on him. Just beating the living **** out of the redman. Well, redman picked up the baton and my buddy shot him. They failed him because "he create his own deadly force situation."

Needless to say I, and pretty much everyone else disagreed and thought that was total BS... he did it again and passed with no problems..graduated flying colors with the rest of us.

So that's my story of why I'm not big fans of the two LBPD instructors at Rio Hondo.

moparfan
06-05-2009, 12:12 AM
adrid is a cool dude. I like watts and the davis, those two guys would show me and my partners stuff that they didnt show the rest of the class, it help to pay attention and practice cause i learned some cool moves. the only search that i have not and probably will not do is the cursory search. i have the subject either hands on head or behind back like praying, grabbing the fingers but still pushing hips of balance and search. but the long beach officers are still there "teaching" i didnt learn a whole lot when they were there.

McGruff
06-05-2009, 12:36 PM
My partner was wailing on that redman with his silly foam baton. Well, redman didn't want to go down, so he threw his baton and just started...well, wailing on him.

Damn those foam "batons". At some point I said F' the baton and tucked it in my pants because I knew they'd DQ' me if I threw it on the ground. I bummed rushed my guy and took him on the ground. :D

My buddy had the asian male as Redman. Got a couple good whacks until Redman got pis*ed and fought back. My buddy got punched so hard that his nose ended up breaking. Drew his weapon and automatic DQ. Hey we were taught that bones breaking equals great bodily injury which authorizes the use of deadly force, no?

nicky83
06-06-2009, 02:30 AM
I just had some "stick time" with Adrid last night. He's an AWSOME instructor!!
:)

Blizzination
06-09-2009, 07:18 PM
I just had some "stick time" with Adrid last night. He's an AWSOME instructor!!
:)

I bought a dymondwood straight baton from Adrid. I carry it everyday.

Adrid is a wealth of knowledge. As is Davis..if he is still teaching there. I believe Adrid is retired LASO..Davis is Irvine PD.