Sig P229 failure to extract?

[OrlandoExp103]

Hey guys. I got a brand new P229 about two months ago, and been having problems with it extracting the spent case after firing. It happened about 5 times the first hundred rounds or so, but figured it was just needing to break in. I've since used 4 types of ammo, including Speer gold dot, and shot about 1500 rounds and it still jams up.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas to try befre sending it off to sig and waiting weeks for them to send it back. I tried taking it to the range I use and asked for a weaponsmith to inspect it, but being the cocky know it all *** hats they are :mad: wouldn't even tell me when the weaponsmith was in and just told me it had to be because I was using winchester white box, even though the same box of ammo shot through my step dads P239 with no problem...

I know there's probably nothing I can do, but figured couldn't hurt to ask. Any ideas? I'd just hate to send my only handgun off, not knowing when I'd get it back.

Thanks.

[David Hineline]

Is it leaving the empty brass in the chamber? If so then your chamber is dirty/rough or shot a bunch of laqured Wolf ammo and laqure transferred to the chamber from the heat and is not sticking cases. What caliber if your gun? If the slide is extracting but not ejecting and trapping the fired empty while trying to reload the next round, then it could be as simple as you not holding the grip tight enough, might need try a reduced power recoil spring.

A trip back to Sig might be in order. Check your fired brass for any deep scratches where a burr in the chamber might be sticking the brass.

[David Hineline]

Also a trip to the Sig forums might get you some help.

http://sigforum.com/eve

[pulicords]

I'd send it back to SIG for repair. As a LEO, you have every right to expect it back within a week. Make the call and they'll probably be able to accommodate you.

[HEDP]

.
A friend of mine had the same problem with his Sig.


The gunsmiths at the range found out that the extractor was too tight I believe and was causing the problem.


They fixed it somehow and he was back to shooting great. The gun was brand new.


.

[OrlandoExp103]

Is it leaving the empty brass in the chamber? Yes. The brass stays in the chamber, with the new round trying to load in pressing in behind it, basically like a double feed. If so then your chamber is dirty/rough or shot a bunch of laqured Wolf ammo and laqure transferred to the chamber from the heat and is not sticking cases. I've only used just a few Wolf rounds, less than 30 (either that or throw them away...probably should have thrown them away....:rolleyes:)but it was doing this even before that using Winchester White box and Blazer. As far as being dirty, I clean it pretty anally, and make it as clean as I humanly know how to, but still doing it. What caliber if your gun? 9mm. If the slide is extracting but not ejecting and trapping the fired empty while trying to reload the next round, then it could be as simple as you not holding the grip tight enough, might need try a reduced power recoil spring. I hope its not that, and pretty sure it isn't. I never had a problem with the other kinds of handguns Ive tried, including 2 other models of Sigs.

A trip back to Sig might be in order. Check your fired brass for any deep scratches where a burr in the chamber might be sticking the brass. Ill definately look for that.

I'd send it back to SIG for repair. As a LEO, you have every right to expect it back within a week. Make the call and they'll probably be able to accommodate you.
Actually I'm just a dispatcher, but thanks for the promotion. :) If I do have to send it back, hopefully Ill get speedy service either way.

[COBRA90GT]

As others have mentioned, get in touch with SIG - call the company up and have it corrected. A problematic pistol is never good, especially so if it's a duty (???) pistol or you use it as a carry piece.

[David Hineline]

Brass in the chamber, well the Sig is a blowback gun so if the cartridge was sticking in the chamber than the slide would not move trying to load a new round as it takes the blowback of the brass moving backwards to move the slide. I would check the extractor for proper shape, not broken or chipped and tension, the extractor has to be droping the case before it goes back far enough to hit the ejector then when it tries to load a new round the empty has to be pushed back into the chamber. Cycle some rounds by hand and make sure the case is not getting knocked off the face of the slide by the tip of a bullet being too high in a magazine knocking the empty off before it gets knocked out of the gun by the ejector. I suspect your problem is weak extractor spring or chipped extractor, or non factory magazines or factory magazines with spread feedlips letting the nose of the ammo rise to high in the magazine.

[OrlandoExp103]

Well I sent it off finally. I called today and they said its been looked at and shipped back already with the note attached:
"Inpected, lubed, and shipped back. Could not replicate the malfunction."

Talked to one of the guys on the phone who basically said it could either be the mags or my fault... Theyre all factory mags, and unless theres some special or different way to hold a 229 than any other handgun I (or anyone else I let try) used then I dont know...

Might trade it in or something. The P239 my step-dad has works perfectly, might get one of those...

[Gunhand]

I just returned from the Veterans Affairs Police Training Center. We are in the process of adopting the P229 DAK for a gradual replacement for the 92D we currently carry.
My P229 was a friggin jam master! atleast twice a magazine it failed to extract. Cleaned it and it did it on the first round in the chamber, changed ammo and still did it. Finally took a barrel from a gun that functioned properly and did not experince a problem...gotta be a chamber problem.

Now I'm back at the agency and I will video tape the issue and send that and the gun to Sig.

Question? I forget which response I read it in...if the blow back operation of the fired round forces the slide back and the brass would not remain in the chamber because the blowback also forces the brass out...then why the need for an extractor? I'm not being a smart ***, I am curious. I would like to learn about this.

[sap123]

Question? I forget which response I read it in...if the blow back operation of the fired round forces the slide back and the brass would not remain in the chamber because the blowback also forces the brass out...then why the need for an extractor? I'm not being a smart ***, I am curious. I would like to learn about this.

Your question is confusing, are you asking what the point of an extractor is? Because if a weapon had no extractor then the casing would remain in the bore and wouldn't go anywhere. The slide would go back and try to load another round and obviously FTE. Every single time.

[OrlandoExp103]

Well, if I'm not the only one having this issue with the same model gun, then maybe its a quality control issue? SIG is supposed to be top-notch... I wonder if with the huge jump in people buying guns they opted to start spitting them out at a lower quality??

Unfortunately I havent been able to take my gun out to test fire since I had it returned. Its been a horribly long time since I've been shooting, but I've been avoiding all the ranges recently due to the sudden popularity in gun range suicide attempts....

Honestly, I really like the gun. It fits like a glove. I shoot well with it. I just dont think I could trust it with my life. And whats worse is that is specifically why I went with Sig, because I thought I could trust it "To hell and back..." as they claim. :mad:

Anyway....maybe if once I get it out and it still does this I'll do the same as you and take a video of it, then send it back with that. If they still send it back with the same note attached I just might have to try Glock :eek:

[David Hineline]

In a blowback weapon the slide can not move unless the cartridge is blowing out of the barrel. The extractor controls the ejection, also allows the slide to be cycled and to eject loaded cartridges. Not all guns have extractors but most do. In a gas operated gun the slide will cycle and leave an empty in the chamber, this can not happen in a blowback gun.

Sig is a combat weapon and designed for combat ammo. Winchester White box 115gr ammo and Remingtion 115gr fmj ammo is weak *** cheap as you can get crap. While it would cycle most of my guns some it will not.

I would suggest some 124grain NATO spec ammo, once you pound 1000 rnds of that through the gun perhaps it will loosen up enough to operate on budget stuff.

[Gunhand]

I see what you are saying David, but I was on a firing line with 15 other Sig P229 DAK's and only mine was operating this way. It would cycle and leave me with an empty brass in the chamber and a new round jammed in behind it, double feed. Once the barrel was changed the issue stopped.

I do not limp wrist the gun, I am a Sig Armorer and did a complete break down and inspection of the gun, including matching the position of the ejector to the one on the gun that I got the donor barrel from. After all of this I replaced the barrel wiith the original one and again, empty brass in the chamber and a new round behind it. I do not dispute your explaination of the blow back operation but the gun cycles without the brass leaving the chamber. Extractor and ejector are fine, it must be the chamber being out of round or bulged. It happened to a wheel gun I had, why cant it happen to an auto loader? If you have another idea on what to check, please let me know. I am friggin confused and I have to continue to carry the 92D until I get this fixed.

[rauchman]

In a blowback weapon the slide can not move unless the cartridge is blowing out of the barrel. The extractor controls the ejection, also allows the slide to be cycled and to eject loaded cartridges. Not all guns have extractors but most do. In a gas operated gun the slide will cycle and leave an empty in the chamber, this can not happen in a blowback gun.

Sig is a combat weapon and designed for combat ammo. Winchester White box 115gr ammo and Remingtion 115gr fmj ammo is weak *** cheap as you can get crap. While it would cycle most of my guns some it will not.

I would suggest some 124grain NATO spec ammo, once you pound 1000 rnds of that through the gun perhaps it will loosen up enough to operate on budget stuff.

Not to disparage your comments, but I have a hard time believing that WWB would be the problem. I have a P226, my buddy has numerous Sigs (2x P226, 2x P220, 2x P229, P228, P239) and my cousin has a P229 in 9mm. We all put WWB through our pistols with no problems at all. They are older pistols and function flawlessly. I have to believe either the chamber is not dimensioned correctly/not polished correctly, or there is not enough tension on the extractor.

Overall, this doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies about modern Sigs. I seem to hear more complaints about their QC lately than any other manufacturer. Sad, Sig was once one of the shining spots in the handgun world. Now, I don't know.

[Nessmuk]

Brass in the chamber, well the Sig is a blowback gun so if the cartridge was sticking in the chamber than the slide would not move trying to load a new round as it takes the blowback of the brass moving backwards to move the slide. I would check the extractor for proper shape, not broken or chipped and tension, the extractor has to be droping the case before it goes back far enough to hit the ejector then when it tries to load a new round the empty has to be pushed back into the chamber. .

No, the SIG classic frame pistol is not blowback operated. It is a recoil operated firearm. The barrel stays locked for the first fews fractions of an inch as the slide/barrel unit recoils, then the barrel tilts a bit to unlock as the slide continues to move rearward. The impetus for the movement is the force of the bullet moving forward and the mechanical reaction to that effort; it is not the brass pushing against the slide. Think about it: the empty brass case has very little mass; a bullet moving with greater mass forward at hundreds of feet per second has overall much greater total energy thatn the empty cartridge case, which at the time of firing (bullet starting forward) is actually stationary for a few microseconds. Remember basics: "for every action (bullet moving forward) there is an equal and opposite reaction (slide/barrel moving rearward)"

The blowback operated firearms in the SIG pistol line are the 230/232 series and some of the various .22s. In a blowback firearm, the barrel remains fixed and does not move as the slide moves rearward. In this case the initial force is still the bullet moving forward, not the brass moving rearward.

There is a distinct mechanical difference between blowback operated firearms and recoil operated firearms, and furthermore there are long recoil operated firearms - like the Browning Auto 5 shotgun - and short recoil operated firearms like most automatic pistols.

[Gunhand]

Thank You Nessmuk for clearing that up.

[cclawdog]

Overall, this doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies about modern Sigs. I seem to hear more complaints about their QC lately than any other manufacturer. Sad, Sig was once one of the shining spots in the handgun world. Now, I don't know.[/QUOTE]

The issue with the QC may have a lot to do with filling Government contracts. I remember a time when you could not get a P226 or 229 cuz the FBI (i believe) was issuing them. Even when I picked up my P226 for the academy 4 yrs ago I was looking for the nickel two tone and couldn't find one. Glock is currently going thru same thing. There is such a high demand I can't even order what i want from my shop, and they do a TON of business. They have to settle for what ever Glock sends them

[sap123]

The issue with the QC may have a lot to do with filling Government contracts. I remember a time when you could not get a P226 or 229 cuz the FBI (i believe) was issuing them. Even when I picked up my P226 for the academy 4 yrs ago I was looking for the nickel two tone and couldn't find one. Glock is currently going thru same thing. There is such a high demand I can't even order what i want from my shop, and they do a TON of business. They have to settle for what ever Glock sends them

What are you trying to order? Both GLOCK and Sig have pistol contracts with various local/state/federal agencies, but I have plenty of friends that have done business on a purely commercial and civilian level without serious hiccups.

[jb5722]

I can tell you that my academy class fired a cumulative total of approximately 138,000 rounds through sig p229's and we only had one malfunction similar to what your describing and that was when the extractor on that particular weapon was sheared off. so personally, I don't think sig is having widespread QC issues. I can't really offer any advice as to what could be causing your FTE though.

[zeplin]

I see what you are saying David, but I was on a firing line with 15 other Sig P229 DAK's and only mine was operating this way. It would cycle and leave me with an empty brass in the chamber and a new round jammed in behind it, double feed. Once the barrel was changed the issue stopped.

Gunhand, did you or anyone mic the chamber? or any of the spent cases? Is the chamber chrome lined? Any unusual marking on spent cases? Have you felt the inside of the chamber with a dental pick(plaque scraper) for bumps? From what you said it sounds to me like a tolerance issue with the chamber.

[Gunhand]

Gunhand, did you or anyone mic the chamber? or any of the spent cases? Is the chamber chrome lined? Any unusual marking on spent cases? Have you felt the inside of the chamber with a dental pick(plaque scraper) for bumps? From what you said it sounds to me like a tolerance issue with the chamber.

I dont have a mic, nothing was visible to the eye and a magnifying glass. I didnt think to look for the shape of the brass, I'll have it at the range tomorrow and will make a point of it. I'm sure its a tolerance issue, the other barrel worked fine.

[David Hineline]

I will have to do an experiment to make sure I an not wrong. Results to follow.

[David Hineline]

Experiment completed, I was totally all wet, no one listen to anything I said in the above thread. Nessmuck is spot on the difference between blowback and recoil operated gun. While I knew the terminology difference as he pointed out calling the gun recoil operated, I still thought the push back of the empty case was what operated the slide, it is not. In my experiment empty cases were never extracted left completly in the chamber the the slide locked open on an empty magazine. Feel free to call me stupid on this.

In my day job I trouble shoot mechanical/electrical equipment for a living, in my off hours gun job I think I troubleshoot well but a person must first understand how something works to really troubleshoot it well and I was off base on this one.

Ok now to the original problem since I know the truth. If your Sig is trying to load a new round while an empty is in the chamber, you could have an overly tight or rough cut chamber, which causes a case to stick in the chamber, the case does not blow out, when the slide retracts the extractor hops off the rim of the cartridge, and tries to cycle in a new round. Could be a damaged extractor or weak spring. Can you manually cycle a magazine of ammo out of the gun by hand cycling? With the gun no magazine empty case in chamber slowly cycle the slide, it should extact the empty and hold onto/control the empty case by the extactor not untill the case hits the ejector should it loose control of the empty case.

So in the case of your Sig I would say bad extactor or spring, tight chamber cut or rough cut, weak main recoil spring which is trying to extract the round while brass is still expanded too tight to the chamber because of the slide moving too soon in the pressure curve time, needs longer lockup.

Thanks for the learning folks, this explains a lot and proves I am not too old to learn something new.