reliability for patrol rifle

[SigSauerfirst]

I am an avid shooter. I have shot alot of rounds through pistols. How many rounds would a person have to shoot before you would carry a rifle(M4) for patrol duty. I have the Bushmaster Gas-piston operated model and I am wondering how many rounds should I shoot through it before carrying it to protect my life and others? I will pay for the ammo but with the current times its not easy to find 223. I could use the practice anyway. Thanks for the advice.

[C0d3 thr33]

I'm not an officer, but I would shoot at least several hundred rounds before trusting it 100%. I've heard great things about the gas-piston system's reliability, but you want to be confident that your specific rifle is reliable.

I know some others can recommend magazines, I use the Bushmaster 30-round ones but I have one that doesn't work all the time. Use quality mags and make sure they all function reliably in your rifle.

[AzPilot]

Ideally, if one can, it's a good idea to attend the patrol rifle class with the rifle you're issued (or the personally-owned one you plan to use). There are a couple of reasons for this:

-A good patrol rifle class will have you shoot somewhere around 1,000-1,500 rounds. This will expose any mechanical weakness in your rifle (either in the rifle itself, or in the HSLD doo-dads you've added to it.

-Different rifles have different tendencies and zeros with different shooters. Nothing like lots of rounds to really dial in your rifle

-Shooting free ammo is fun

The folks who teach at places such as Gunsite can tell you which rifles/shotguns/handguns/subguns run well, and which ones are break-o-matics. They can also tell you which mags, ammo, and accessories work well, and which ones are junk. Mainly, it's because they see lots of government-sponsored (or wealthy private) parties come though there each week, toting their neato-snazzy tacticool gear. At the end of the week, some of the gear is laying in pieces after a few thousand rounds, and some just keeps on truckin'.

[11b101abn]

At least 1000 like the poster above stated. I just returned from a patrol rifle class, and really beat the s**t out of my smoke pole.

I trusted my life with it before, but now I would trust your life with it.

[AzPilot]

really beat the s**t out of my smoke pole.

I'm putting that on the list of things that sound dirty, but aren't. :D

Incidentally, the same applies with pretty much any gear setup. If you can put your stuff through a class that's going to give it some intensive use over a period of time, it gives you a chance to really wring it out, and to develop some confidence in the equipment and/or how you've set it up.

I remember helping out with a tactical course one time, years ago (before I was sworn), and watching each officer go through it. Most were OK...but some...total soup-sandwich. One guy managed to lose a piece of gear off his duty belt at each station, and by the end of the course, I think he only had his gun in hand, and a pretty much empty belt. The range looked like someone had thrown a cop-gear yard-sale.

Time to re-think that belt setup, I'd say.

[shastadude16]

I would say 1000, but ammo is expensive and can be hard to come by now...If it eats 500 Wolf .223 I'd say it's good =]

My papi's Bushmaster XM15 (regular direct-impingement system, not your fancy one that makes me jealous) eats Wolf .223 no problem. The only jams I've ever had with it were from crappy magazines, and that wasn't very many. Wolf has a bad rep though, I think it's because the casings are steel or something instead of brass and it's cheaply manufactured, so I would just say put 500 Wolf through it and see how it performs then maybe 250 duty ammo or something...but that's if you're on a budget.

Your Bushy should eat Wolf just fine, but if it doesn't, I wouldn't fret either because of its rep.

[DaisyCutter]

I'd say the number of rounds is highly variable based on the number of mags you have for your rifle. I've found magazines are the biggest reliability issue in many magazine fed rifles. If you have 3-30 round mags, then three "stoppage-free" cycles through each mag (270 rounds total) could be enough. If you have six mags, then the quantity of rounds would double.

[Surf]

It is always good to validate all of your weapons systems and gear before deploying them. As mentioned it also includes the mags, sling, any weapon accessories, and ammo that you will be using. Some things may work individually but you need to verify everything that you may be deploying, weapons, gear etc, as a complete system, and how they function together as a whole.

[SigSauerfirst]

Thanks for all the replies. I really don't want to use my personal rifle for duty but I may have to with the long wait and being low man at the department. I don't want to be outgunned or have this attitude that its my departments job to outfit me. I have a few magazines. I will use P-magazines for the break-in. I have have a good amount of experience with pistols but not a ton of training with a rifle. I am going to a 5 day urban class for my next vacation.

What about shotguns how many shells?

Thanks

[Blackdog F4i]

If my rifle runs 500 rounds of Wolf without choking, I consider it OK for duty. If it chokes once, it's deadlined until I find out why.

Shotguns are going to depend on the shotgun. If it's a wingmaster or police Remington, by the time you train and qualify with it, you will be good to go. Most Remington 870 malfunctions are user induced. You can buy the cheapest shells you can find and run 100 rounds through it. It doesn't matter if it's birdshot or slugs since you don't have a gas system to deal with. When you qualify, make sure it's with yout duty rounds to ensure that they feed correctly and don't have any problems hanging up in the tube or the feed system.

[SigSauerfirst]

I went shooting today and ran about 320 rounds of 223 through it without any problems. I used 6 P-mags for the test. I fired slow and fast trying to see if the rate of fire caused any issues. I have over 500 rounds through it. I was very happy that it went bang every time. Ripping through some magazines was so much fun. I have a month or less until I am solo. I am still not sure if I am going to use my personal rifle on duty. With all the crap on it its over 2000 grand..

Would you give it a pass with shooting 7 full magazines with no jams or problems? Thanks...

[Blackdog F4i]

I am still not sure if I am going to use my personal rifle on duty. With all the crap on it its over 2000 grand..

Who cares how much money it costs? Not having the right tool for the job may cost you all you have, and all you ever will have.

My expensive patrol rifle is a hell of a lot more disposable than my life.

[Mstangfk]

my life is worth banging up my 2500 dollar M-4

[Fëanor]

Don't you want to put that $2,000 to good use? What better use is there than protecting the lives of yourself and others?

[SigSauerfirst]

Its not a money issue for me. I understand that my life is worth way more that my rifle. If I didn't take my career seriously I would carry 450.00 $ worth of flashlights. I wasn't issued any lights and lot of other gear. My department is suppose to give me a choice between a rifle and a shotgun. I was told that I could carry both which is what I want to do. I have a Mossberg 590 and and my bushy but I expect them to give me the choice. If I carry my own guns they should at least give me some ammo to shoot. Its a big savings for them plus the ammo I have already shot.

After shooting the 330 rounds through my rifle without a jam or malfunction is it good to go? I used P-magazines. I have over 500 rounds through it.

[jwise]

Yeah, probably. The best test is to take it to a carbine course, and run it hard.

Clean and re-lube after every 500 rounds, as an AR will burn off its lubrication after 500 rounds and will need at LEAST a re-lube to keep going.

[M-11]

Loosk like you might not be able to do what most think, namely attend a high round count course.

If you want to carry after a few mags worth of rounds through it, more power to you.

I would practice your SPORTS drills, as well as transition to Sidearm.

If there is a malfunction, let it be your equipment, not your training and preperation.

M-11

[SigSauerfirst]

I grew up shooting pellet guns, rifles,pistols and shotguns. I have shot more that a few magazines in my life. Most all the same princples apply to shooting. I will go to a urban rifle course soon if I can find one open in my area. Just because I am not shooting rounds doesn't mean I can't practice reloads, clearing jams, and know how it functions. My firearms instructor is a marine so I think he could give me some stuff to work on..:D Not all departments give their officers all the training that they need.

If I were king all my officers would be going to an urban rifle course or invite a team of instructors out to teach to the department. I don't see that happening anytime soon so I will have to find my own training and relie on the experienced officers to teach me more about my M4.

With the current times that law enforcement is facing do you want me showing up to a gunfight with a rifle or pistol if I am your backup? I am going to keep on practicing and look to some video tapes and books to further my knowledge in how to shoot and deploy a rifle. My goal is to attend a rifle class this year.

I clean all my guns after I use them no matter how many rounds I shoot. Thanks Jwise for the information.

[Sleuth]

1. Sounds like you have enough rounds through your rifle , BUT (big BUT), run at least one full load through each of your mags WITH YOUR DUTY AMMO! Not practice stuff, but the rounds you will put your life behind.
2. RE your shotgun - 3/4 boxes of the cheap stuff, then several mags of duty ammo - same reason.
If, for any reason your depart switches ammo, run a full load from each mag with the new stuff. A shootout is no place to find the new rounds are too long, or mag #2 will not feed them, etc.
Remember, your ammo is tax deductible.

(And don't push too hard until you are off probation - you don't want to be "that guy"!)

[SigSauerfirst]

I know not to push it too hard. I wouldn't even ask until my year is up. I am going to do it on my own dime. I am not going to wait for my department to send me to training to learn skills that I need to do my job better and save my life. I was doing a search of a junk yard type area and all i could think about was man I wish I had my rifle with the light. I don't like being outgunned:eek: while I am looking for suspects.