Oh...here's something I'd like to hear from you.

[Blue_Chameleon]

Okay...as some of you may know, I just went through scenario testing at my Academy. I guess I did a good job since I am graduating tomorrow http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I was sitting here, thinking about my big day tomorrow morning, and thinking about my experiences at the Academy. Things like the people I met, the firearms training, PT training, defensive tactics, and scenario testing.

Anyway, one scenario actually bugged me a little bit. Now, every instructor emphasizes officer safety and to go home every night. Not that I'm arguing that point but it brings me to this scenario that I had. My partner and I respond to a misd. traffic accident. We get to the scene and the violator drives off. My partner drives after this person. The violator suddenly stops and bails out of the truck and runs away. We get out of the patrol car and go after him. It was nighttime and dark. The only lights we had were our flashlights. I felt like my safety was compromised with the darkness and the surrounding 6' tall shrubs and bushes so I drew out my firearm while my partner did not. Later on, we catch the guy...blah, blah.

The point was that I took my weapon out and my partner did not. The instructor who was evaluating dinged me for drawing my firearm out because he said it was just a misd. offense and did not justify the use of my firearm. I tried to tell him that it was nighttime, dark, and it was through some shrubbery that was too thick to see through. But I guess it didn't work for him.

What I'm confused is that they teach you officer safety and to "go home" that night. But when I did that in this scenario, I got dinged.

I don't get it...can someone enlighten me on this with your vast sea of knowledge? Of course, I might know the answer to this later on but right now, it's just rattling in my mind. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Blue_Chameleon (edited 08-18-2000).]

[Niteshift]

Do what you need to in order to pass the course, then go forth into the real world and draw that damn gun if you need to.

Although you're new at this cop thing, you had enough common sense to get as far as you did. If that common sense tells you it's time to grab your gat, then grab it.

In the real world, your instructor is wrong. It's not "only" a misdemeanor crash. It might be for you, but you have no idea what it is from the bad guys point of view. For all you know, he crashed while fleeing an armed robbery where he killed 3 people. You know that you are there for the crash. In his mind, you are there for the murders. The same holds true for traffic stops. They are ALL dangerous. You are stoppin the guy for a piece of cloth hanging out of the trunk and obscuring his tag. He knows you're stopping him because that piece of cloth belongs to clothing being worn by the corpse in his trunk. And that corpse is the mother of the cheerleader tied up in his backseat! You get the idea.

You NEVER know that it's "only" a misd. crash until you're home and off-duty. The guy ran for a reason. People do assault and kill cops over misdemeanors. Domestics are a likely place to get killed, but domestic battery is "only" a misdemeanor in most places. There are nut cases.

As an instructor, I have had some strong disagreements with the academy director some of the training, traffic stops in particular. You were right, he was wrong, IMO.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[dkiefner]

Wait till after you cross the stage to tell him so, BC. http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Don]

Hey Blue,

While we all think your instructor was a "little off" on this, keep in mind:

During your career, you will make many decisions, some right some wrong. But you will always have a supervisor, and he will have his opinion. Many times, you will do something that you feel is fully justified, but you will still get your backside in a sling over it. It's just a part of life. Don't let it throw you.

As has been pointed out, do what you need to do to get through your training. But when you hit the street, do what you need to do to go home at the end of your shift.

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Stay safe out there,
6P1 (retired)

[FLLawdog]

Hey, Blue, yet another good one.

I tend to go for the gun in hand thing, too. It may have started out as a misdemeanor, but it can turn to s*** real quick. Lots of hiding places in the bushes. Just make sure you practice good gunretention skills and keep your eyes and ears open.

Sounds like you have the common sense to get you through the rest.

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FLLawdog
"Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

[David]

Blue,

As the others have told you, don't let something in a classroom tie you down because your "gut feelings" tell you to do something. As anyone with experience can verify, that 'gut' feeling will save your life! Don't forget it.

Instinct will kick in at the damnest times...follow it, if at all possible. You never have to 'follow thru' in a given situaton, just as you didn't fire in the test. But 'covering your *** and your partners' is (as you know) a very good idea.

Needless to say don't set yourself up for excessive force charges or worst still, manslaughter. Use common sense, protect yourself first and foremost. Go home that evening.

Most supervisors 'have been there'. If you have good reason to do something, such as you did in the 'test'. If it was wrong in his mind, he won't chew...but explain why. Believe me that person knows about gut feelings and will, most of the time, tell you the same as we have. Follow it. Gut feeling, not fear. Learn to tell the difference.

Another thing, you did real good...ask questions. The dumbest question in the world is the one that wasn't asked. That's the ground work of a fine Officer.

I'm lost... I've gone to look for me. If I should get back before I return, would you please ask me to wait? Thanks

[This message has been edited by David (edited 08-18-2000).]

[Sparky]

You're gonna have to go with your instincts on this type stuff....and get used to being second guessed. Welcome to the club.

In the situation that you describe, I think that I probably would not have drawn my weapon. Having mine out already is not going to keep him from getting the drop on me. If he jumps out or we find him and it's a scuffel, then that gun is just taking up space in my hands and I can't grab him and fight. I could even drop the gun or lose it to the perp.

However, since there were TWO of you, I would say that it was a good idea for at least one of you to have your gun drawn.

I may not have even chased the guy at all. Foot pursuits are a great way to get hurt and if all I got is a misdemeanor traffic charge, then screw it. Things that would factor in would be..Do I have an Id so I can get the guy later? Is the car stolen? Does it macth the description of a recent robbery or something?

Most of this is not text book stuff, but in my experience, at an accident scene folks will run and run and fight and fight only to find out it was just a suspended license!! Second to that would be stolen vehicle.

Not right or wrong, just my two cents worth.

What it all comes down to, if you feel like you need your gun and you can articulate your reasons for doing so, then do it.

The academy is good, but the street is another matter. Graduation Certificate looks good on the wall, but it's your Street Degree that gets the job done.

Now go forth young man, and burneth up the street.....we got our radio on if you need us!

http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

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-Sparky
Fiat justina.

[Glockarmorer]

All cops know there is the academy way, and there is the real world way. Do what you gotta do to graduate from the academy. Then keep what works, discard what doesn't, and do what you gotta do to stay alive.

I agree 100% with the follow-your-instinct theory. If you feel like you need your gun in your hand, then whup it out! If you don't need it, then put it away. Just cause you draw it doesn't mean you gotta fire it.

Stories about so called "veteran cops" who went their entire careers without drawing their guns outside of the pistol range are a bunch of B.S. If its true, then those deadweight lardasses never did a day of real police work in their lives.

There have been several times when I've been on calls and the pucker factor got cranked up a notch or two. During these incidents, I sometimes don't even remember drawing my gun. Its just like, "poof" and its in my hand.

I've arrested dozens of people at gunpoint. Luckily I've never had to shoot anyone. I've come close on several occasions and would have been completely justified. Its a part of everyday police work in this day and age. Sometimes academy instructors lose touch of what's really going on outside of their "tactical problems village".

Good luck and welcome aboard.

G.A.

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No cops, know anarchy.

[Sparky]

What I always hated was when I would be trying to arrest someone at gunpoint and they'd just look at me pointing my gun at them like, "So?".

I thought, "Okay. I can't actually just shoot the guy and he is not following my verbal commands, he is bad ***** enough to not care that a cop is pointing a gun at him. Now I am left with: a) Call for help and try to look tough while I wait. b) Keep telling him to lay down until it annoys him so much that he does it. c) Throw my flashlight at him. or d) Re-holster and lay hands on him.

When we got the spray though...guys would look at your gun and go, "yeah whatever." but when you re-holstered and went for your spray, they were like, "WHOA WHOA WHOA! I'm cool!" and they'd prone right out for me. Kinda strange when folks would rather get shot than sprayed. Some of these guys knew what they were talking about too, having previously been shot by other thugs and sprayed by other cops.



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-Sparky
Fiat justina.

[alexzan99]

blue_chameleon,

first off congradulations on completing the academy.Second I'm not sure if I should post here or not b/c I am the spouse of an LEO not an LEO myself, but in my opinion what ever my husband does to stay alive and come home to me and our daughter is the right choice after all a lecture for drawing to early is a small price to pay for your safety. Its easy to sit in a training room under an ideal situation and say what is right or wrong but in the real world some body fleeing like that could be b/c of a range of violations and unless you can read minds you don't know what that might be. Who knows that car he just wrecked could have been stolen, he could be DUI and on probation the list is endless not everything is what it seems to be,take nothing for granted,trust your gut and go home at the end of shift.

Stay Safe
Traci

[Blue_Chameleon]

Thanks everyone for your responses. It seems like a majority of you "favor" my actions by following my gut feeling.

On another note though, is it paranoia when it comes to having your hand near your gun at a car stop? Or is that just "playing it safe?" How can you tell? I just get that feeling that everyone out there is going to stick me with something just because I'm wearing a badge.

I've heard about a guy who has a little Derringer in his metal clipbooks before. That, to me, is a little on the paranoid side...or is it?

[This message has been edited by Blue_Chameleon (edited 08-20-2000).]

[Glockarmorer]

When I was in uniform, I carried a S&W 642 Airweight Centennial .38 in an ankle holster as a backup weapon. During cold weather, I would often carry it in my jacket pocket. Every now and then on one of those traffic stops that "didn't seem quite right", I would simply slip my hand into my pocket, while talking to the driver. To him, I was just casually standing with my hand in my pocket. Little did he know that there were 5 rounds of .38+P ready to be launched at him right through my pocket if necessary. I even practiced this at the range with an old jacket. Worked like a charm.

Paranoid?? Hell no. Prepared? Hell yes!

I've also drawn my duty weapon and kept it down by my side while making the approach on a traffic stop. Not every time of course, but we all know the kinds of stops I mean.

I'm going home. Whatever it takes.

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No cops, know anarchy.

[Tank]

The guy with the derringer was elaborated on in a book called "Shoot To Kill," by retired officer Chuck Sasser. An excellent book about cops who have had to use deadly force - should be required reading at police academies.


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http://www.geocities.com/lawenforcementjob/marines.gif

[This message has been edited by Tank (edited 08-20-2000).]

[John from Maryland]

I'm joining in late here, but I would like to offer my perspectives. (Congratulations, by the way, blue).

Based upon the scenario you describe, I would have had my pistol in hand during the search for the culprit. A subject has left the scene of an accident and then bailed out of foot? No doubt that my weapon would be in hand. Misdemeanor v. felony is not the issue (especially in Maryland, if you've ever read our Annotated Code). The issue is the threat to you or the public, not the specific charge you plan to place against him or her.

Despite those tales of cops who retire without ever drawing their weapon, most police unholster the burner as a contingent force option. In the old days officers were taught to never pull a gun unless one intends to shoot someone. That was then; this is now. You should certainly have the weapon in hand when you believe there is a significant possibility of using it. If you decide to draw your pistol, however, you should be using cover and distance to your advantage.

That being said, I do disagree with the philosophy of covering the suspect through one's coat pocket. While I have spoken to people with a gun behind my leg, I generally eschew thia practice as well. If you really think the guy's so dangerous that you're going tohave to shoot him, you really should be behind cover with weapons up and pointed. If the culprit's only dangerous enough that you feel you should approach himor her, then an unarmed assault is as likely as anything else. You should be ready to respond with baton, OC spray, psitol,or tactics.

Avoid the foolish tactic of unsnapping your holster upon approach. It reduces the security of your weapon. If you're going into a situation where you believe you will need your wweapon, it should be in your hand and not in the holster. If you unsanp on the perceived dangerous calls and stops, you will,sooner rather than later, need your pistol in a hurry and fumble the draw.

Be safe.

[cdawg16]

Blue, your in a really tuff spot right now. The academy has a set way that they want you to do things. Are they always practical on the street? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Take what your instructors have to tell you to heart for the purposes of getting through school, but you'll find out (as we all have) that the academy teaches you just enough to get yourself killed a lot of times. Your best training, as with any job, will be on the job. I have always felt that good old fashioned "common sense" goes far in this profession. Follow your gut instinct, you'll find that you will be able to sense when something "just isn't right". As far as the scenario with the misdemeanor crash, fleeing suspect, etc. Again, it's nice that you knew it was a "misdemeanor crash", but you won't on the street. And going after a suspect in the woods, after he fled the scene. Let me tell ya, if you and I were the officers searching for a suspect in an unknown area with unknown circumstances (e.g. warrants, etc). I'll bet you any amount of money if you looked over to me, you'd see my weapon drawn.

[Dukeboy01]

This may sound too simplistic, but if your little voice down deep inside tells you that you might need your gun out, TAKE IT OUT. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot somebody.

Works for me.

[Dukeboy01]

Addendum to above:

If your little voice down deep inside tells you that you might need your ying-yang out, IGNORE THE LITTLE VOICE.

And no, this is not personal experience talking here. Bunch of gutter minded perverts. I'm talking about a guy I know. Named... Mukeboy...02.

[jpuck]

Blue_CH,

As for the scenerio, you did the right thing. You obviously felt the need to draw your weapon, and went with your instinct. That is what it's all about, that split-second decision. When you are comfortable enough to make that decision based on your instinct, it becomes less of a "decision" and more of a natural and prudent action--which is where you want to be. It just happens. There will likely be times in which you find yourself holding and maybe pointing your firearm, and you'll be like, "How did that get in my hand?"

This brings me to another point on the instructor saying, "It was only a misdemeanor offense." I just hate that. Departments should really stop teaching that way of thinking. This is a pet-peeve of mine, and I think I will start a new discussion on this sub.

Anyway, good luck with your career!

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jlp

[jpuck]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blue_Chameleon:


The instructor who was evaluating dinged me for drawing my firearm out because he said it was just a misd. offense and did not justify the use of my firearm.


One more thing to keep in mind Blu_CH, he told you that the misdemeanor offense didn't justify the "use" of your firearm. Like Bill Clinton might say, "That depends on what the word 'Use' means." If you are holding your baton or a can of pepper spray in your hand, are you "using" it? Anyway, that was just another thing to keep in mind if you ever get called down by a supervisor in the field for the same thing in a real situation.

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jlp