Jury trial...on a STOP SIGN VIOLATION

[texasjohn123]

You know, I've seen a surge lately of people going to jury trial for traffic tickets. Ive got a court date in a few days where a guy ran a stop sign, and has hired a lawyer and requested a jury trial. I've been to a few court cases in my day, but wow this is a first! I gotta admit, I'm a little nervous. I figure $200 an hour for a lawyer v.s. a $136 ticket is kind of redundant. What do ya'll think? Oh yeah, they also put in a motion for discovery for my in-car video! I have nothing to hide but...WOW!

[Steve in PA]

While it didn't go to a jury trial, I did have a woman contest an expired vehicle inspection citation all the way up to the county Court of Common Pleas. When her case was called the judge looked at the woman and said, "was your inspection expired?" When she said yes, he told her that he was not going to waste the courts time with her case. Guilty.

[L-1]

What do ya'll think?

Rejoice in the fact that, win or lose:

1. You still wrote a good citation.

2. You will (hopefully) collect OT for court.

3. It's still going to cost the violator more for the attorney than the fine will be.

4. Most likely, the violator will wind up paying for both the citation and the attorney.

Either way, its a job well done.

If they got the in car video through discovery, be sure to review it, along with your notes and citation before your court appearance. Go over them with a senior officer or a sergeant you trust. Use their second pair of eyes to pick out anything they think the attorney will challenge you on, so you will be prepared with a response if questioned about it in court.

Remember too, whatever the attorney says or does in court - it's nothing personal. It's his job to do what he does, just like it's your job to do what you do. I used to kid and BS with attorneys in the hall before court, have them try to rip me a new one on the stand, and then we would kid and BS in the hallway again afterwards. It's just a game - all smoke and mirrors for the client, the judge and the jury. Probably the meanest, nastiest attorney I faced in the courtroom on a routine basis was one of the nicest guys I ever dealt with outside of the court. Again, it's just a game.

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

[StudChris]

Wow, I'm glad that's not an option here.

[SgtCHP]

CA did away with jury trials for infractions long ago. Best thing to take place in jurisprudence. Saves money, time and ill informed defendants from being caught in their own idiocy.

[chiefcop]

CA did away with jury trials for infractions long ago. Best thing to take place in jurisprudence. Saves money, time and ill informed defendants from being caught in their own idiocy.

Stated very well!!

[creolecop]

Stop sign tickets are very hard for anyone to beat in court. Just stand firm in your testimony and remember the whole time, that dude is a dumb a55 cause he's the only one who can get screwed either way the outcome. ;)

He's either going to pay the fine, plus court costs, plus attorney fees, plus loss of work, or he's going to win and pay attorney fees, plus loss of work. You get paid extra for going to court :D (provided it's your day off)

Just be confident and never let'em see you sweat, LOL!

[PhilipCal]

In Alabama, in theory, a defendant can ask for a Jury Trial for a traffic violation. Past that, I refer you to the excellent replies you've already recieved. Take particular note of L-1's comments concerning attorneys. That has been my experience as well. Once retained, an Attorney has an obligation to his client. He tries to impeach you on cross, he's just doing his job. Let us know how it comes out.

[btfp]

They are hoping you might plead it down to something. In this particular case, what is the maximum penalty that can be assessed?
I mean if this guy is facing jail time or license suspension, it might be worth trying to go for the gusto. Paying the lawyer and getting the charges dropped to something less and keeping ones license might be a good investment.

[L-1]

btfp brought up a good point. Before you go into court you might pull up this guy's driving history to see how many prior citations he has and whether he may be facing a license suspension or revocation as a result of yout ticket.

Also check to see if he is on probation or parole and whether a conviction on this citation might somehow violate their terms.

If you are going to a jury trial I assume the county will have a prosecuting attorney present. Make sure hs is aware of any negative driving history, licenase suspension/revocation potentials and any probation/parole violation potentials. These may be useful bargaining chips for him.

[stealth600]

It's funny to see those who are caught red handed, hire a lawyer to either still enter a guilty plea or pay a large amount of money to the lawyer when they could have paid the small fine. I recently read an article focusing on a lawyer that has been around forever. The funny part of the article was when the lawyer said he was paid $8,000 to defend a guy for a $500 bond on a possession of marijuana (less than) charge; and the defendant was still found guilty.

[pujolsfan146]

This guy already lost before he steps in the courtroom. Any attorney who would represent this guy in court over a simple non-jailable traffic citation is not looking out for the better interest of the man. He is simply going to show up and take his money.
He will pay the attorney more then the fine will be. He lost.

[t150vsuptpr]

When I transferred here, there was a guy who was the Commonwealth's Attornet here who would very often ask for a jury trial on felonies involving lots of drugs or other especially sensational stuff, as a way of showing the community that he was a strong advocate for them so as to garner favor at election time. If a defendant is found guilty, they pay the cost of the proceeding as you know. For a jury, that includes all cost associated with a jury including compensation or fees they are entitled to.

Few years later, he's no longer CA as he had some problems with a couple ladies in his office, etc and was voted out, another man was voted in. Older CA now is in private practice, earning a living.

Then one night old T150V (me) finds two tankers parked alongside the interstate,both drivers asleep, same company, no triangles or flashers. Driver A is a butt and also boss man, Driver B is employee, and "OK", but before T150V talks to B, he's already decided to write them both "Fail to Obey Highway Sign" cites, and does so over A's protests. It's a mover, but only $30 fine and $30 costs then, prepayable at $60 each, only minimal points.

Got the picture?

Driver B simply prepays his fine and costs. Driver A (Driver B's boss man) hires that attorney who used to be CA but who is in private practice now. Well, they subpeona Driver B and expect him to testify favorably for Driver A, but Driver B quits and takes another job with another company before court date arrives and is mad at being subpeonaed, and doesn't do any favors for his old boss, Driver A. Driver A is convicted, assessed the going rate $30 fine and $30 cost, and he has attorney appeal it to circuit court.

Comes date for circuit court, the attorney decides they want to request a jury trial and does so, Judge says "Sure thing" with a grin. Another new date is set, and then on that date, we all show up and the newer CA and this older ex CA who is representing the Driver A go through the questioning and after a couple hours, we have a jury picked.

Then we try the case, Driver B is there too, still mad at Driver A, and tells jury truth. Driver A is convicted as charged and jury sets fine at $250. Judge reduces fine to $100 as that was maximum for that violation. Driver A and his "attorney" who requested jury trial leave court to go to pay clerk of court, T150V comes down steps a few minutes later and attempts to pass some pleasantry with attorney as Driver A scowls. Then girl in office gives them total.

Over $700 is owed! $600 plus is court cost for picking and seating that jury and the $30 court cost from lower court, plus the $100 fine. Driver A is no longer scowling, he's in mild shock. Attorney wants to argue with girl, and T150V interupts to ask attorney if he didn't know convicted defendants pay the costs of proceedings? Attorney finally admits that even with all the cases he had tried as CA and all those jury trials, he just thought the state paid it. T150V said "Not hardly" and chuckled, and then Driver A who owes both the attorney for representation and over $700 to court which is due starts to curse the attorney ...
... and T150V leaves before it get's too heated with smile on face.

"Justice delayed is justice denied" ... not sue it fits but it sounds cool!

:D Too funny! :D

[katseiye]

Our department limits the in car video discovery only to the particular stop and violation/violator. Records Div maintains the video and the Rec Supv makes sure they get only that portion, I believe using the privacy act to limit it. So far they haven't been challenged.

Kinda like never take your notebook in court and refer to it during testimony. You may have to give it to an attorney who'll probably go through it cover to cover and question you on unrelated entries but they consider it evidence.

If they get all the video, they may try to pick you apart by establishing if you have a pattern of bias or are consistant in the action you take.

Good luck.

[PhilipCal]

When I transferred here, there was a guy who was the Commonwealth's Attornet here who would very often ask for a jury trial on felonies involving lots of drugs or other especially sensational stuff, as a way of showing the community that he was a strong advocate for them so as to garner favor at election time. If a defendant is found guilty, they pay the cost of the proceeding as you know. For a jury, that includes all cost associated with a jury including compensation or fees they are entitled to.

Few years later, he's no longer CA as he had some problems with a couple ladies in his office, etc and was voted out, another man was voted in. Older CA now is in private practice, earning a living.

Then one night old T150V (me) finds two tankers parked alongside the interstate,both drivers asleep, same company, no triangles or flashers. Driver A is a butt and also boss man, Driver B is employee, and "OK", but before T150V talks to B, he's already decided to write them both "Fail to Obey Highway Sign" cites, and does so over A's protests. It's a mover, but only $30 fine and $30 costs then, prepayable at $60 each, only minimal points.

Got the picture?

Driver B simply prepays his fine and costs. Driver A (Driver B's boss man) hires that attorney who used to be CA but who is in private practice now. Well, they subpeona Driver B and expect him to testify favorably for Driver A, but Driver B quits and takes another job with another company before court date arrives and is mad at being subpeonaed, and doesn't do any favors for his old boss, Driver A. Driver A is convicted, assessed the going rate $30 fine and $30 cost, and he has attorney appeal it to circuit court.

Comes date for circuit court, the attorney decides they want to request a jury trial and does so, Judge says "Sure thing" with a grin. Another new date is set, and then on that date, we all show up and the newer CA and this older ex CA who is representing the Driver A go through the questioning and after a couple hours, we have a jury picked.

Then we try the case, Driver B is there too, still mad at Driver A, and tells jury truth. Driver A is convicted as charged and jury sets fine at $250. Judge reduces fine to $100 as that was maximum for that violation. Driver A and his "attorney" who requested jury trial leave court to go to pay clerk of court, T150V comes down steps a few minutes later and attempts to pass some pleasantry with attorney as Driver A scowls. Then girl in office gives them total.

Over $700 is owed! $600 plus is court cost for picking and seating that jury and the $30 court cost from lower court, plus the $100 fine. Driver A is no longer scowling, he's in mild shock. Attorney wants to argue with girl, and T150V interupts to ask attorney if he didn't know convicted defendants pay the costs of proceedings? Attorney finally admits that even with all the cases he had tried as CA and all those jury trials, he just thought the state paid it. T150V said "Not hardly" and chuckled, and then Driver A who owes both the attorney for representation and over $700 to court which is due starts to curse the attorney ...
... and T150V leaves before it get's too heated with smile on face.

"Justice delayed is justice denied" ... not sue it fits but it sounds cool!

:D Too funny! :D

Living proof of the phrase "Poetic Justice" :)

[355339]

Defense attorneys have websites advising violators to fight every ticket as far as they can to tie up court with the belief, that somehow, the courts can't handle all of the cases and a lot will be thrown out of court. In actuality, the defense attorneys just want to bill their clients for all the hours they can.

[PB3021]

You know, I've seen a surge lately of people going to jury trial for traffic tickets. Ive got a court date in a few days where a guy ran a stop sign, and has hired a lawyer and requested a jury trial. I've been to a few court cases in my day, but wow this is a first! I gotta admit, I'm a little nervous. I figure $200 an hour for a lawyer v.s. a $136 ticket is kind of redundant. What do ya'll think? Oh yeah, they also put in a motion for discovery for my in-car video! I have nothing to hide but...WOW!

Are your tickets not civil infractions?

[thirdgod]

No jury trials out here for civil traffic offenses.

I also love how people try to fight the ones that really can't be fought. I've got court next month for a guy who is fighting a "driving on suspended license" ticket. I have no clue how he's going to contest that one, but I'll take the OT....

[towncop]

Defense attorneys have websites advising violators to fight every ticket as far as they can to tie up court with the belief, that somehow, the courts can't handle all of the cases and a lot will be thrown out of court. In actuality, the defense attorneys just want to bill their clients for all the hours they can.
:rolleyes: Whatever bro.

[Tmg]

Take the over time and just be happy you got it. Who cares if he wins or looses. You got OT, it only took 5-10 min to write the ticket then it was over and the guy has to waste his time to fight it. Win Win for you.

[1062PP]

Welcome to NYC. People contest everything from stop signs to registration/inspection expired to tints in front of the Administrative judge. Sad part is that the judge usually dismisses the summons.

[BPD_126]

I had a judge at KC that would ask everyone if they had a job before issuing the fine. They all knew to say "no" because he'd issue a dollar fine for the guilty plea! "Nice" then we walk out the door.......

[ClintTorres]

A lot of people think they are better than officers because they make more money, or are more educated, etc... I saw a rookie officer write a kid a ticket for rolling through a stop sign. The kid was home from college in NYC on christmas break, got his court date set for while he was home and plead not guilty. They had a hearing on the ticket and the judge sided with the officer. The kid requested that the case go to circuit court. This kid had to fly home from New York a month later to fight a $50 stop sign ticket and lost again. What a turd.

[LawyerCop]

Jury trial as a right do not apply to infractions....need to change the classification of that offense

[DPDK9]

I am going to a jury trial over a parking ticket that I issued where the person is not denying that they were parked illegally just that I was motivated to write the citation for political reasons and therefore the citation is invalid. The person stormed out of pretrials yelling that they would rather pay $300 to an attorney then to pay the court $140 for the citation. I don't think they realize that they will have to pay for more than attorney fees if they are found quilty. This is a first in 3 yrs for me though, not really a common occurrence.

[bajakirch]

The first time I posted this experience, years ago, some found it so unbelievable that I was labeled a troll. But I assure all that this is completely true. As they say, you can't make this sort of thing up.

I ticketed a guy for 13 over. The fine was around $80 and written into our municipal court.

He decided to fight it, even though he lived 4 hours away.

I showed up for court. I went to the stand and stated my facts.

He represented himself and began asking questions. It quickly became obvious that he'd visited some website or read a book on how to get out of a traffic ticket. He started with the typical stuff like asking me if the radar was checked before and after, when the last time the radar was certified, etc. Then he went into some bizarre questioning.

I don't recall all the questions, but I remember one. He asked me if I was certified in visual speed estimation. I said I was. He then held his pen out and dropped it to the floor. He asked me to visually estimate the speed of his pen.:confused:

Naturally the municpal attorney objected, and it was sustained. But he just kept on with all sorts of stuff like that. In all honesty, I was on the stand for over 2 hours. The full trial lasted almost 4 hours. In fact, the judge finally called an end to it when we reached 10PM (municipal courts are in the evening).

The only reason I can imagine the judge let it go on so long was that she was new to the job. In fact, it may have been her first trial as judge (though her daytime career was as an attorney). I've never had a traffic trial go on so long, even for much more serious offenses.

[zeroryde]

Welcome to NYC. People contest everything from stop signs to registration/inspection expired to tints in front of the Administrative judge. Sad part is that the judge usually dismisses the summons.

very true... especially in manhattan south 19 rector.

nice sn btw...

[t150vsuptpr]

I don't recall all the questions, but I remember one. He asked me if I was certified in visual speed estimation. I said I was. He then held his pen out and dropped it to the floor. He asked me to visually estimate the speed of his pen.
Short answer (the one that came immediately to mind when I read your post):
"The pen's speed was never constant in that brief fall sir, it was stationary up to the point you released it at which time it accelerated downward at a rate of near twenty two miles per hour per second until it hit the floor."

If he's an especially obnoxious attorney, a longer reply is maybe in order, oft times requiring a pause to compose:
"The pen's speed was never constant in that brief fall sir, it was stationary up to the point you released it at which time it accelerated downward at a rate of near thirty two feet per second per second or twenty two miles per hour per second, meaning it would be traveling near thirty two feet per second or twenty two miles per hour at the end of the first second, and near sixty four feet per second or fourty four miles per hour at the end of the second second, and so on until air resistance impeeded further acceleration, at which point the pen would fall further at a steady velocity or speed until some change took place in that air resistance or gravitational force. It's why a one pond round lead ball falls faster that one pound of feathers in a silk pillow case, and it's why I say near as air density and resistance to it posed by a light weight and nearly hollow pen no doubt hindered the pen's fall even in only five point eight eight seven feet."

Yeah, I know .... normally, feet per second is taken as velocity, miles per hour as speed. Thirty-2 feet per second is near about 22 MPH and the falling pen would have hit the floor well before reaching that speed.
MPH x 1.46666666666 = FPS
FPS / 1.46666666666 = MPH.
You can use 1.466.

For some further reading. (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/mofall.html) Just note that the formula applies in a vacum, ie: "no resistance" ... and on Earth ... at sea level ... and 9.8 meters is about the same as 32 feet.

Many years ago, an older, now long retired Trooper buddy of mine was in court and a younger attorney was querrying him simularly, had a box with colored lights and tested his ability to see color, then did some other test, all with the Trooper saying "sure, no problem". After it was obvious that the Trooper could see and could differentiate color and wasn't dislexic (spl?), could accurately read red numbers, etc ... the attorney asked the Judge if he could do one more .... judge grinned and said "sure, if the Trooper is ok with it" or words to that effect (he was a laid back Judge, he was having fun watching this too).

Then the attorney asked the Trooper how far it was from his nose to the Trooper's nose. The Trooper thought for a few moments, and then threw out an educated guess it seemed, "sixteen feet, four and one half inches". I and a deputy pulled a tape the attorney brought as they stood still. It was nearer to 16'6" on the deputy's end. Everyone had a laugh, the attorney even laughed.

Later, out in the hallway, the attorney said it was a "good guess" and the Trooper said "no guessing to it", as he then reminded the attorney that he'ld just finished building his house himself and how he was confident on the 16 feet and threw the 4 1/2 inches in for effect. It wasn't until years later after I built my home as well that I understood how that experience will build one's ability to estimate distances.

Still, to this day though ... I think back and wonder just how much help those 2 foot square ceiling tiles in that old court room were? I see him at coffee stops sometimes, old tales pop up, he says he never noticed the ceiling tiles .... but he sure seemed confidant that day.

:D