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View Full Version : MCSD Serving Criminal Warrants ????



55-502
12-16-2008, 08:55 AM
Granted, I have been out of the game a while and Marion County wasn't my primary response area, but I am confused at how Anderson is using his Special Deputies. I was under the impression that after the merger IMPD was responsible for criminal warrants, not MCSD. The State Constitution outlines the duties of County Sheriff to Jail operations, Courtline security, and civil paper process. His little "warrant squad" were the ones who shot a dog 9 times while serving a criminal warrant, and is now being sued by the family, and has created a firestorm in the papers. Does Anderson have the authority to use Building Deputies in this manor?

MetroOff519
12-16-2008, 11:40 AM
The "deputies" he uses to serve warrants are mostly retired merit deputies. There are some newer special deputies on the squad too, but none of them have been to ILEA.
IMPD initially did the criminal warrants, but when Mayor Ballard took over IMPD, a deal was cut that the sheriff would take over serving Criminal Warrants. They are in the "Law Enforcement" division of MCSD too.
Of course, I also don't know why MCSD has marked cars any more when less than 30% of the specials employed by the department have had EVOC training. A special got in a short vehicle chase the other night and fortunately no one was hurt, but that too is a powder keg that will blow up.

I think the state legislature should outline what special deputies are allowed and not allowed to do. Right now, there is nothing that says they can't serve warrants, etc.

Hoosier_Boy
12-16-2008, 12:11 PM
As long as they complete the 40 hour pre basic course from the ILEA they can do anything that a full time LEO can do. As long as MCSD permits it.

MetroOff519
12-16-2008, 01:16 PM
As long as they complete the 40 hour pre basic course from the ILEA they can do anything that a full time LEO can do. As long as MCSD permits it.

You're right there, but doesn't mean they SHOULD be. I mean that from a training standpoint. ILEA and IMPD trains their students in how to make a traffic stop safely. They also train in EVO. MCSD doesn't. I think a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous things an officer on the street does.

Serving a warrant is dangerous as well just by its nature. Does MCSD have training for their warrant people in how to serve them or do they just send them out and make a plan as they go? I know SWAT teams train extensively in how to make forced entries in certain situations, etc.

MCSD has a 10 week Special Deputy Academy (no, it's not ILEA certified) but they don't even teach them how to recover a stolen vehicle, so they definitely have no training in warrant service.

I hope NO officer ever gets injured but if a MCSD officer were injured serving a warrant, MCSD may get sued for failure to train, if they don't.

I agree it's up to the department to allow what they can/can't do, so not trying to start any argument there, just giving some info for thought/discussion.

55-502
12-16-2008, 01:25 PM
If front line Law Enforcement is in their job description, then their academy training should be adjusted accordingly, but looking at the State Constitution it isn't. 10-4 on the powder keg!

straycat62
12-16-2008, 01:46 PM
I agree that anyone serving warrants shound have specialized training. It isn't normal LE call.
On the flip side of this discussion is Marion County has like 25,000 open warrants. That sounds crazy. We need to clean that up some how. I know in our down time or OT, we check our beats for warrants by laptop. That is just a lot of warrants.

MetroOff519
12-16-2008, 02:40 PM
MCSD should handle misdemeanor and non-violent D Felony warrants. IMPD should be given C Felony and higher warrants and could thereby utilize ERG, SWAT, etc.

55-502
12-16-2008, 03:22 PM
I agree that anyone serving warrants shound have specialized training. It isn't normal LE call.
On the flip side of this discussion is Marion County has like 25,000 open warrants. That sounds crazy. We need to clean that up some how. I know in our down time or OT, we check our beats for warrants by laptop. That is just a lot of warrants.

Just throw up a 10 foot high fence from Mitthoeffer to Shadeland, and from 38th to 46th and you would have half of them in custody. :)

CruiserClass
12-16-2008, 03:33 PM
We need to clean that up some how. I know in our down time or OT, we check our beats for warrants by laptop. That is just a lot of warrants.


A couple of those could be cleaned up if compared to death records. Sometimes people have a REALLY good reason for being FTA.

Hoosier_Boy
12-16-2008, 03:57 PM
*Knock knock knock* "It's the police! We have a warrant for Frank!"

Lady comes to the door "Frank has been dead for a year"

whoops!

BlueIce
12-16-2008, 05:11 PM
Some of those warrant guys ought to check for a pulse ---they've been around quite a while...:eek:

IndySoldier1983
12-17-2008, 02:31 AM
Post deleted.

straycat62
12-17-2008, 09:32 AM
Just throw up a 10 foot high fence from Mitthoeffer to Shadeland, and from 38th to 46th and you would have half of them in custody. :)

10-4 on that

"MCSD should handle misdemeanor and non-violent D Felony warrants. IMPD should be given C Felony and higher warrants and could thereby utilize ERG, SWAT, etc."
10-4 on that

"A couple of those could be cleaned up if compared to death records. Sometimes people have a REALLY good reason for being FTA."
And 10-4 on that

Jimmy777
12-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Granted, I have been out of the game a while and Marion County wasn't my primary response area, but I am confused at how Anderson is using his Special Deputies. I was under the impression that after the merger IMPD was responsible for criminal warrants, not MCSD. The State Constitution outlines the duties of County Sheriff to Jail operations, Courtline security, and civil paper process. His little "warrant squad" were the ones who shot a dog 9 times while serving a criminal warrant, and is now being sued by the family, and has created a firestorm in the papers. Does Anderson have the authority to use Building Deputies in this manor?

What were they suppose to do, let the dog viciously maul them all to death?

Warrants is made up of mostly ex-Merit Deputies or ex- C.E.R.T. Team members. They all had to go through the Warrants Training, they do monthly In-service, and get recertified on everything...

straycat62
12-20-2008, 09:03 PM
Warrants is made up of mostly ex-Merit Deputies or ex- C.E.R.T. Team members. They all had to go through the Warrants Training, they do monthly In-service, and get recertified on everything...

good deal

BlueIce
12-21-2008, 08:35 AM
good deal

"Warrants is made up of mostly ex-Merit Deputies or ex- C.E.R.T. Team members. They all had to go through the Warrants Training, they do monthly In-service, and get recertified on everything..."

The thing to pay attention to here is "Ex-merit" and Ex-Cert". This can mean several things. Why are they Ex? How long have they been out of law enf? Some retired YEARS ago, some went to work for private non-LE companies (and got fired!!) so they came back to be specials. Some were dismissed from original MCSD for bad behavior but hired back as specials. I would love to tell you all about the Ex-Police officer now-special who left me in in a house we were searching. I turned to look for my partner and he was gone!! Out of there! I backed out of the residence from the second floor and found his sorry *** outside talking to his buddies who also should have been retired but weren't. I'm lucky I went home that day. No explanation was given by him when asked why he did what he did. He and his grizzled-faced buddies thought the whole thing was hilarious. And I could go on. This is just one reason why this warrant mess should be handled by Public Safety and not MCSD. Ineptitude at it's finest.

Hoosier_Boy
12-21-2008, 09:06 AM
Hell I serve warrants with the 40 hour pre basic. I don't ever go alone, but I go.

IPDBrad
12-21-2008, 09:55 AM
The warrant system is a mess. I have heard numbers ranging from 25-40,000 open warrants.

Anyone who has gone through the warrants to serve them quickly realizes how much of a mess they are. There are so many bad addresses, people who have moved, even some that are deceased.

The courts and jail issues have exacerbated the problem. I would be willing to bet that easily half the open warrants are for driving.

Obviously, there is no way to fix that address issue, but it takes time, legwork, luck to track down those who are transient or give bad addresses.

A great way to reduce crime is to go after those with warrants. They have already shown that they are criminals, locking them up can and will impact crime in short order. Of course, one other element is needed, incarceration. The lack of the latter just decimates crime suppression in Indy.

BlueIce
12-21-2008, 12:01 PM
The warrant system is a mess. I have heard numbers ranging from 25-40,000 open warrants.

Anyone who has gone through the warrants to serve them quickly realizes how much of a mess they are. There are so many bad addresses, people who have moved, even some that are deceased.

The courts and jail issues have exacerbated the problem. I would be willing to bet that easily half the open warrants are for driving.

Obviously, there is no way to fix that address issue, but it takes time, legwork, luck to track down those who are transient or give bad addresses.

A great way to reduce crime is to go after those with warrants. They have already shown that they are criminals, locking them up can and will impact crime in short order. Of course, one other element is needed, incarceration. The lack of the latter just decimates crime suppression in Indy.

Additionally, when the subject does get to court he/she testifies by signing a document that the address they are claiming is actually theirs. Of course, the subject will say anything and usually the address is fake. This is a perjury issue that, at the court level, is not being pursued. If there were multiple varying charges, maybe they wouldn't get such a low bond or released as quickly only to become an FTA again. One more thing - and many know this but it bears repeating - always run your victim name. Chances are good they have warrants too and it's another chance to clear even more.

MCSD241
12-21-2008, 04:11 PM
Additionally, when the subject does get to court he/she testifies by signing a document that the address they are claiming is actually theirs. Of course, the subject will say anything and usually the address is fake. This is a perjury issue that, at the court level, is not being pursued.
Good point, did not think of that one.

IPDBrad
12-21-2008, 08:29 PM
+1 on the victim, especially useful if your victim is a problem child or a tool and then they have a warrant.

I also run my wanted subjects through case req to see if they have been a victim or made a recent report. This has yielded a good address more than once and allowed me pop them on the warrant.

BlueIce
12-21-2008, 10:46 PM
+1 on the victim, especially useful if your victim is a problem child or a tool and then they have a warrant.

I also run my wanted subjects through case req to see if they have been a victim or made a recent report. This has yielded a good address more than once and allowed me pop them on the warrant.

See how easy this is! And I am personally acquainted with a special dep warrant officer who has flat-out refused to learn how to use an in-car computer or run extra info to get things cleared. Dereliction of duty.

Jimmy777
12-21-2008, 11:19 PM
"Warrants is made up of mostly ex-Merit Deputies or ex- C.E.R.T. Team members. They all had to go through the Warrants Training, they do monthly In-service, and get recertified on everything..."

The thing to pay attention to here is "Ex-merit" and Ex-Cert". This can mean several things. Why are they Ex? How long have they been out of law enf? Some retired YEARS ago, some went to work for private non-LE companies (and got fired!!) so they came back to be specials. Some were dismissed from original MCSD for bad behavior but hired back as specials. I would love to tell you all about the Ex-Police officer now-special who left me in in a house we were searching. I turned to look for my partner and he was gone!! Out of there! I backed out of the residence from the second floor and found his sorry *** outside talking to his buddies who also should have been retired but weren't. I'm lucky I went home that day. No explanation was given by him when asked why he did what he did. He and his grizzled-faced buddies thought the whole thing was hilarious. And I could go on. This is just one reason why this warrant mess should be handled by Public Safety and not MCSD. Ineptitude at it's finest.

Most of them retired and cameback... Also, You'll find people like you mentioned in the latter part of your post in almost every Department, not just MCSD.

MetroOff519
12-21-2008, 11:26 PM
Jimmy, you are 100% correct about that. However, does it mean they SHOULD be serving high risk warrants, etc? I don't think so.

I have friends on MCSD currently and some that are on the Warrant squad as well. I hope none of them (or any officer) never get hurt. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it is going to happen. Not if, but when.

I also think MCSD should be driving all unmarked cars. I would also limit MCSD running lights/siren and being involved in any kind of pursuit.

As I stated in a previous post, I'm not opposed to MCSD handling warrants, but should be ones that are generally lower risk, misdemeanors and non-violent D Felonies.

CruiserClass
12-22-2008, 07:31 AM
Rumor mill on MCSD had them supposedly being sent through some type of additional SWAT training, but I cannot confirm that has happened.

I was patrolling the interior of a gas station yesterday, admiring the cold, and a guy who's apparently on the warrant team came up and talked to me. He wasn't in uniform or anything and for some reason just assumed I knew who he was and who he worked for, but anyway once I finally asked him he turned out to be on the warrant team.

I asked him about the training thing and he said they were training a dozen or so in SWAT tactics and they were going to have the acronym "DART".

IPDBrad
12-22-2008, 10:05 AM
I was patrolling the interior of a gas station yesterday, admiring the cold, and a guy who's apparently on the warrant team came up and talked to me. He wasn't in uniform or anything and for some reason just assumed I knew who he was and who he worked for, but anyway once I finally asked him he turned out to be on the warrant team.

I asked him about the training thing and he said they were training a dozen or so in SWAT tactics and they were going to have the acronym "DART".

Please tell us you asked what "DART" stood for.

MCSD241
12-22-2008, 01:41 PM
I was patrolling the interior of a gas station yesterday, admiring the cold, and a guy who's apparently on the warrant team came up and talked to me. He wasn't in uniform or anything and for some reason just assumed I knew who he was and who he worked for, but anyway once I finally asked him he turned out to be on the warrant team.

I asked him about the training thing and he said they were training a dozen or so in SWAT tactics and they were going to have the acronym "DART".

Oh boy, we did give MCSD about a dozen patrol rifles for their warrant guys. Why? Who knows. I know we are not allowed to serve warrants with patrol rifles (I have one). If there is concern enough to have rifles...then the warrant needs to be served by the REAL swat guys. I know the level of training our swat guys have and NOTHING MCSD could do to even approach that. Patrol rifles for warrants is a bad idea.

BlueIce
12-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Please tell us you asked what "DART" stood for.

I can think of something..!!!;)

MCSD241
12-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Please tell us you asked what "DART" stood for.
D-Dogs
A-Always
R-Require
T-Torture

eternallc
12-24-2008, 09:33 AM
It's funny a guy on our department just joined the warrant squad, and here is some more disturbing news. He's ILEA certified through our department, and he told me that's how he thinks they make the groups. He said his group is all ILEA certified and other groups are all special deputies with no cert. They have the specials with the SPL and the certified guys with the normal MCSD uniform. Why don't they just have IMPD or certified only do this?

Jimmy777
12-24-2008, 10:20 AM
It's funny a guy on our department just joined the warrant squad, and here is some more disturbing news. He's ILEA certified through our department, and he told me that's how he thinks they make the groups. He said his group is all ILEA certified and other groups are all special deputies with no cert. They have the specials with the SPL and the certified guys with the normal MCSD uniform. Why don't they just have IMPD or certified only do this?

All the Warrants guys I know are plain clothes... You sure your friend is on MCSD's Warrants Team? There's a huge list of applicants and a certain amount of time you have to be on the Department before you can even be eligible to apply...

IndySoldier1983
12-25-2008, 10:37 AM
Post deleted.

K40
12-26-2008, 08:13 PM
Please tell us you asked what "DART" stood for.

Dip****s And Retired Twits? :D

Zvillereserve
12-28-2008, 02:16 PM
I saw a group of 4-5 people in a fast food restaurant that were in jeans, t-shirts, vests, guns, and badges around their necks. I never got a good look at the badges but I assumed it was a marion co thing or IMPD. Basically they all looked like a bunch of ******bag felons who hadn't showered in weeks, obese, etc. One of them actually even bumped into my father with his gun while he was walking to his table. I was a little confused. Anybody have a clue what purpose these guys may have been serving based on my description?

INDiver
12-30-2008, 09:43 AM
Dip****s And Retired Twits? :D

ROTFLMAO!!!! Good one!