Advise Needed

[nightcop]

I have been on the streets of a small town department for less than one year. I am sometimes the only officer on the street, but do get good assistance from the county. Recently I was assaulted while on duty alone and had to fight to retain my weapon. After being taken to the hospital and some time off I am back to work now and I am okay. I have been able to deal with people just like I did before this incident including arrests. The poblem is when I go too arrest anybody that looks like the guy that assaulted me ( black male, approx. 6'2", 295, with a shaved head) which is often,I get really nervous. Is this a normal feeling? I am not scared I just get nervous but I can still effect the arrest without using force or otherwise doing anything different.

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It's not how a man dies that is remembered. It's how he lived.

[FLLawdog]

If your agency has EAP or any similar counseling group, check them out. You may also need more time to get over the emotional healing. Maybe more positive contacts with people that fit that description would help.

The next problem I can foresee is a lack of trust in black males. Unfortunately, a bad experience like this can bring out issues against a race. It's not racism per se, but there could be issues. Aussiecop has a thread dealing with this in For Cops Only.

I'm just glad to see you're alright and back to work, but I truly wish administrators and city leaders would WAKE UP! One officer is not enough to cover a city. We're no longer living in the days of Andy Taylor and Beaver Cleaver! Think about safety, not finances!

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FLLawdog
"Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

[tcsd1236]

Doesn't relate directly to street patrol, but a personal experience:
Back when I was in the jail, two determined inmates took on the better part of the shift with me as the intended target because I was the source of a perceived slight towards inmates due to my by-the-book approach to Corrections. One officer got body slammed up against the wall(later retiring from the injuries received), another wears a plate in his head to this day, the Sgt went into flashbacks over a similar incident that had happened to him and stood there near useless. I got pummeled for a while; it didn't end til the Trustees stepped in and ended it.
I made the concious decision to return to work after only a day or so off; I was on light duty for a month or two, restricted to the control room, but the inmates could see that I was there, I hadn't been checked out of service by these two goons.
The toughest part was going back out on the floor and walking that hallway, and dealing with those two til they got sent away to the State boys. One actually beat his original charge and only went upstate due to his actions towards me.
The point of all this is that you have to make that step, you have to get in the saddle , so to speak. Otherwise you are no good to yourself, your fellow officers and the Public you serve. If you can't,you might better retire than be a potential hazzard to others, as my Sgt on that day was because he hadn't worked through his own critical incident . There's nothing wrong with having a survival mindset and using proper safety precautions in any given situation AS APPROPRIATE. To simply whitewash all persons of a certain race, ethnicity or appearance because of an incident you experienced is doing them all a disservice.
BTW, after that incident, I decided that the absolutely substandard training we were getting wasn't cutting it, and started a savings account earmarked for attending training schools and ensuring that I was properly trained to meet any challenge that might come. I get to two schools a year, and made sure to include unarmed DT schools in that. I'm on the Road now, but I haven't forgotten that incident. In many ways it acted as a wake-up call to my coworkers, although the folks in the jail tell me that the newer ones who weren't around at the time have slipped back into a certain degree of apathy.

[nightcop]

I don't think it is race issue because I have been able to deal with other people of this race. It is just individuals that match this description. I really believe it is the size of the person that is making me nervous and not the race. I have been able to respond to a similar incident in an adjoining juridiction and was able to react as trained. tscd1236 you make a good point of being to relaxed. Maybe the butterfly I get in my stomach should have been there all the time and this incident was a wake up call to be more alert and ready for trouble. Working in a small town you can get to relaxed and not ready for trouble. Also our department is currently in the process of hiring two more officers. This will leave us only two officers short of being fully staffed.

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It's not how a man dies that is remembered. It's how he lived.

[This message has been edited by nightcop (edited 10-18-2000).]

[Susan McQuay]

Nightcop:
Your instinct will keep you alive. Never lose your butterflies. That's why you are where you are.

[John from Maryland]

Nightcop, after a life-threatening event like you experienced, officers very often have anxiety in dealing with similiar situations or people. You mention that this was a recent occurrence. While I'm no psychologist, the anxiety you're experiencing doesn't sound like anything out of the ordinary. Frankly, dealing with a 6-02, 295 pound suspect with a shaven head should probably make anyone anxious.

Be safe.

[The Cynic]

Its normal. Every time I drive by the apartment where I got in my shooting I get the willies now. You just have to deal with them and go on.

[Monty Ealerman]

Moderators:

I posted a reply in this thread, and I don't see it any more. Can any of the moderators say anything about why?

Regards,

Monty

[Rebecca]

Monty, I don't moderate in here, but do completely agree, suggest and support deletions in this forum. The Rookie Corner falls under the Cops Only section of our forum. Rookie officers come here to get advice from other rookies and more seasoned officers. Anyone that we know of to not be in that position will be deleted out of the forum. If you've not been a sworn officer... you really have no place giving a rookie advice.

The only forum in this section that "non-LEO's" will be allowed to post in will be the Family and Loved Ones forum... and that is only because those spouses and significant others are not usually sworn officers, themselves. However... if we know you not to have family in law enforcement... we'll probably delete you from that forum also if it becomes a problem.

I apologize for any inconvenience, but this is a part of Officer.com that is strictly for the sworn officers. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Carry on Coppers! http://www.officer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Monty Ealerman]

Rebecca;

If the Rookie Corner forum is only to be posted in by those who are permitted to post in the "For Cops Only" forum, the description for it should say that, so that other persons don't waste effort creating responses that will be subsequently deleted.

From your post:



If you've not been a sworn officer... you really have no place giving a rookie advice.



Although this is often true, it often isn't true. Many of the questions asked here do not call specifically for sworn officer experience, and not every good coach is a former player.

I mentioned in another thread, that I don't feel comfortable posting in the "For Cops Only" forum, unless I think there is an officer safety or similarly important issue I might be able to make a helpful contribution regarding, even though my extremely limited ad hoc deputy police officer experience technically could be interpreted as qualifying me to post there, given the requirements specified. You will recall that you quipped about me being a "10 minute man".

In this instance, I was not relying on that extremely limited experience to qualify me to comment in this thread; I was relying on my extremely extensive experience in teaching others how to cope with physical confrontations.

I have taught close quarters combat strategy and tactics, conflict resolution, lawful use of force, and the subtle physical and mental machinations associated with those matters, to many persons, some of whom were police officers when I first met them, and others of whom became police officers subsequently.

They did not think I had nothing more to contribute to their development once they became probationary police officers. On the contrary, they were all the more interessted, because they had suddenly become likely to have to put the concepts into practice on a regular basis.

Some of the concepts were learned from police officers, one of whom can no longer teach them directly himself, but whose hard-gained insights are still being passed along, due to his having taught them to me and to others (thanks again for your helping to bring that officer's life back to the public view once more).

I think the advice I presented was substantially correct, and was a helpful contribution; if it was deliberately deleted because of a rather arbitrary and unannounced rule, I think that was high handed, discourteous, and reprehensible.

It is contrary to the express intent of the forum, and to that of the topic starter, and deprived those who are in the very tough position of being new police officers who must regularly confront persons some of whom are physically larger than themselves, and some of whom are very agressive. Unless something I wrote was, in the judgement of the moderators, likely to be relied upon to the detriment of an officer, I don't think it would have been harmful to leave it there as another set of possibly helpful insights.

If something I wrote really was that wrong, that would mean it would be better to show it to be wrong by cogent contradiction than to have simply deleted it.

I think a more courteous response, if one of the moderators thinks a post should not be in a given topic area, would be to either copy it to another topic area, or email it back to the person who posted it, prior to deleting it.

I could save a copy of each post, so that if the moderators delete it, I will still have a copy, but I don't see why I should have to do that, if I don't deliberately post what or where I should not. I know the BBS has no obligation to preserve anything; however, this is the only BBS on the net that has ever deleted anything I've posted, assuming that's in fact what happened to my post.

Also, this is the first post of mine in this topic area that was deleted, if indeed that's what happened to it.

That makes me think that if it was deleted, it was not solely because of who contributed it, but also because of an evaluation someone made as to the validity of its content.

If that is so, I think the person who deleted it should say what he thought was wrong with it, either publicly or via email.

If the post was deleted, I'd like to know why from the person who deleted it, regardless of the reason.

Again, all the good work you and the other moderators contribute in moderating this BBS is much appreciated.

Regards,

Monty

[Niteshift]

In this case, I deleted it. It was deleted solely because of who contributed it, a non-LEO.

As Rebecca said, this is for experienced police officers to give advice to officers with less experience.

You are not the only person who has had a post deleted in here, nor will you probably be the last. However, it got time consuming to send e-mails to non-LEO's who post in this section and the For Cops Only section. After discussing it with other moderators, the consensus was to simply delete them without explaination.

"even though my extremely limited ad hoc deputy police officer experience technically could be interpreted as qualifying me to post there, given the requirements specified."

I'll clarify it for you now....your ad hoc deputy police officer experience does not qualify. The requirement for that section has been stated before, current or retired police officers. Period.

"...if it was deliberately deleted because of a rather arbitrary and unannounced rule, I think that was high handed, discourteous, and reprehensible."

It was deliberately deleted. The rule is not arbitrary or unannounced. It say for rookie officers to get advice from experienced brothers and sisters......that means cops. If you think it is high handed, discourteous and reprehensible, so be it. Sorry you feel that way. I don't have time to send e-mails to everyone when a post is improperly placed. If you have a complaint, feel free to address it to the webmaster.

"I think a more courteous response, if one of the moderators thinks a post should not be in a given topic area, would be to either copy it to another topic area, or email it back to the person who posted it, prior to deleting it."

Moving the entire thread is not always possible and, as I've already stated, I don't have time to e-mail everyone.

"I could save a copy of each post, so that if the moderators delete it, I will still have a copy, but I don't see why I should have to do that, if I don't deliberately post what or where I should not."

Save whatever you like. The post did not belong in this section and was deleted.

"Also, this is the first post of mine in this topic area that was deleted, if indeed that's what happened to it."

You were given a "pass". They were overlooked in hopes that it was a one or two time thing. It wasn't.

"That makes me think that if it was deleted, it was not solely because of who contributed it, but also because of an evaluation someone made as to the validity of its content."

No, for the second..third...whatever..time. It was deleted because you're not a cop Monty.

"If the post was deleted, I'd like to know why from the person who deleted it, regardless of the reason."

One more time.... I deleted it. I've explained why.

Nobody is demeaning your experiences, as varied as they are. It's simply that this section and the For Cops Only section are for cops.



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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna

[Rebecca]

Monty... I like you. I think you're sweet. I think you're funny. I think you're smart. And I darn sure think you're sexy. So please... don't take what I'm about to say to heart... http://www.officer.com/ubb/wink.gif

Arbitrary and unannounced rule


Hardly. Go back and look at the division of the forums and read the topic headings for each section. Better yet, here you go...

Public Forum Section
Public Forum
Ask A Cop
Civil Rights
In The News
Bulletin Board Help

Communications
Announcements
Jokes
Officer Down
War Stories

Religion & Politics
Various Topics
Capital Punishment
Drug Laws
Gun Control
Presidential Race 2000

Employment & Recruiting
Job Openings
The Job Search

Cops Only, Please
For Cops Only
Rookie Corner
Restricted Access
Family & Loved Ones

So there you have it. You can see now that this was not a case of this being an arbitrary and unannounced rule. You either never read the section titles or you completely ignored them... I'm not sure which.

Monty... being sworn in for 10 minutes here and 10 minutes there does NOT a cop make. I can appreciate that you've had some involvement, but if you are allowed to come into the area designed for the officers just to add in your two cents... then, so can those wannabe's and those who have been reporters at the police station and those who have done a few ride alongs and those who have entered into the community policing programs... and so forth and so on. I'm sorry... but none of these examples qualify.

If on occasion you were to jump in and leave one or two lines... that may be excused and in your case, it actually has already been overlooked... but when it becomes habit we will begin deleting it out. In my case, I can't delete you, but I will post to the other mods that there's a posting they may want to consider for deletion.

If you wish to email an officer with your thoughts on something you've read here... by all means, use their email link. If they do not have one and you'd like to simply post for them to please email you... that would be acceptable... just make it short and sweet and scoot on out of here. If you see a topic you simply have to post about... cut and paste it and take it to the Public Forum and begin a new thread there.

As far as whether you think you should begin keeping copies of your postings because you fear we will delete you... as Niteshift said, that is your choice. However... you've only been deleted here, Monty... so it is not as if you've been censored to the point of justifying such paranoia in the matter.

When it comes to our deletions we are under no obligation to inform you in any way, shape or form. Nor do we need to keep a copy of what we have deleted... even though in the cases of "flaming" we have done so... but we don't have to copy anything, really. The only person we are held accountable to is the Webmaster. In this case, we are doing exactly what it is that he wanted us to do. This is one of the reasons why we are here, Monty. I'm sure you can reasonably see that it's a matter of performing the duties we've been asked to do... and not out of some desire to simply pick on anyone.

You are not a cop and never have been one... therefore, from this point on I ask you to please reconsider taking the time to post in this area because deletions are most likely going to be made on you.

__________________________________________________ _______

And Zebra12... if you are reading this... please let us know if you are currently sworn in as an officer. At this point it appears you are still looking to become one and that will not qualify you to continue to post in this area. I think you have not been deleted only because we are not sure if you've actually been hired on yet.

__________________________________________________ _______

No offense fella's... really. We love having you here... but this section was created for the officers only... and I hope we all haven't forgotten that the title of this website is... Officer.com http://www.officer.com/ubb/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by Rebecca (edited 10-25-2000).]

[capper]

Just getting back to the original topic....
I worked for several years in the mental health field before become a member of the force and I have specific training in the area of trauma. The reaction you describe is a typical indication of the presence of "trauma". Trauma may be described as a very intense psychological memory of an event that conjured up extremely fearful or painful emotions. Evidence of trauma is often seen in all officers who have been involved in deadly force incidents; or who have witnessed death scenes without having time to psychologically prepare themselves. These memories are stored by the brain to help us stay alive or avoid psychological pain the next time that stimulus connected to the incident is detected. In the future presence of similar stimuli as that of the original fearful event the brain tries to prepare you for what it suspects is the event to come. Thus your heart rate goes up, and you feel nervous etc. Its a protective response that the body produces and very normal.

Here's a personal example - I attended a plane crash scene two years ago and had to clean up the bodies. My first glance at the bodies under the tarp shocked me as I had no idea that a human body could look so totally deformed and absolutely hideous. I remember being rattled but not overwelmed. Last week I was gardening and threw my stiff and hand formed leather gloves down on a rock. Hours later I turned and saw them out the corner of my eye and for a brief second my stomach sank, my heart was pounding and I suddenly without notice recalled the plane crash and saw in my mind's eye the man's twisted and disfigured hands. Wow did that take me off guard! - I had no idea those images were still in my head and for the life of me I have no conscious memory of his hands....but the whole scene is still in my head I guess as that flashback proved.

What to do about this? As with other trauma you will not get rid of it by simply ignoring it. The only thing that will get rid of the "protective reaction" is repeated exposure to black fellas with shaved heads until your mind learns that such a stimuli is NOT connected to something horrible. or the other way to talk to someone about the fight again and again and in detail until you have gotten all components of this memory outside of yourself. This will reduce your nervousness. You may reduce your anxiety but you will never forget.

Ah ...the mind is a wonderful thing...hope this helps...sorry for the long length.

[Rebecca]

Just getting back to the original topic....

Thank you, capper. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Please, let's follow suit and take this to email if there's any further need to discuss it.

Sorry for the interruption, folks. http://www.officer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[DesertRat]

These things are very normal. I was hospitalized from a dog attack about 12 years ago. To this day when I get a call where they mention a dog is involved or in the area or whatever, the anxiety meter goes through the roof. I just take extra precautions now and tell people up front what they have to do with the animal and what actions I will take if they don't. I will not be attacked again! I know your situation is a little different but try to turn it for the positive and without being overboard, let those feelings guide you into being safe? Not much help I know but all my brain can formulate tonight.

[Monty Ealerman]

Rebecca; Niteshift:

Thanks for the explanation.

Now that I've re-read the headings, I can see that you're of course right about the policy not having been unannounced.

Had I properly read the section headings before, I'd have known that, and I'd have better heeded the restriction, and not wondered when a post was deleted if I failed to heed it.

Because they were so close to the words "For Cops Only", I didn't notice that the words "Cops Only, Please" were a section heading applying to each forum in the section.

Thanks to both of you for your indulgence, and for your patience in responding to me.

Rebecca, thanks for the very kind words at the start of your response.

Regards,

Monty

[This message has been edited by Monty Ealerman (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Rebecca]

Sir Monty... you are a true gentleman. http://www.officer.com/ubb/cool.gif Now, I'm outta here. http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Topdog]

A criminal justice professor explained that he has seen similar experiences. For example, when a cop does a routine traffic stop, which turns into a deadly force situation (which the officer lives through), he can be so shook up that he has to be given a desk job.

I saw one narcotics detective go to a home (trailer trash) to try and execute a warrant. He got into a shoot-out. Do you have any idea what it's like to have bullets whizzing by you? When you can't escape or run away, you suddenly realize that you're expendable and that if a bullet hits you "just right", then you might be going home in a casket. It's a weird feeling. Sometimes in our job, we honestly don't realize the danger that CAN face us until we are faced with it. Some guys can work 20 or 30 years without facing it (good for them!!!). But once you face fear & death in the face (at the hand of a crazed citizen), it can permanently "shake you up." Some officers never really get over it. The narcotics detective resigned immediately after the shoot-out. He was a big, burley guy who was reduced to an emotional heap. He couldn't handle it any more. Vietnam veterans who've survived combat call it post traumatic syndrome (PTSD). Its very real.

When we get out of the academy, we're young and we feel invincible. Our badge looks beautiful (doesn't it?) and it weighs about 50 pounds. After a life & death situation, we suddenly feel vulnerable (because we suddenly realize we are!!!) and our badge doesn't look so beautiful any more and its just a 1 ounce piece of tin.

Our job takes a certain kind of person. Our jobs take a lot of "bravado" (or is it blind stupidity or faith?). Someone's got to do it.

[FLLawdog]

I was raised in West Virginia and had little exposure to foriegn cultures. When I was in the Army, I got stationed in Germany. While there I got to see terrorist activity, alot of which was Middle East. To see this stuff on TV, then see it in real life, it didn't take me long to associate Middle East with "where's the bomb?". It took getting into larger areas and experiencing other cultures to get over that, should I say, prejudice.

In short, it takes time and exposure. By my comment about race in my first response, I surely didn't mean to imply that it had to be race related. The same thing could very well happen with any race, any description, any age.

We haven't heard from you in a while. Things getting better?



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FLLawdog
"Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

[nightcop]

Sorry I haven't had time to post a reply thanking you all for the advise. I recent began renovating an old house and it takes all my time. Working 10 hours shifts and putting another 6 to 8 hours in the morning at the house. Finally had enough and took a day off. Anyway we got a call the other night about a fight in progress. As we pulled up on the scene we seperated and cuffed the suspects. As I turned one guy around guess who it was. The same idiot who had fought me and didn't show up for court.I don't know who was more suprised him or me. He started getting mouthy and stating that he was going to kick my *** again. When I started laughing he got speechless. We put him the back of the car and he started crying because he didn't want to go to jail. I tell you this is the most interested job that I have ever had. AND I LOVE IT!!! While at the station my sergeant asked him why he fought me the first time and not this time. He stated that this time I seemed to be more confident and aware. At least this taught me something.

[BlueKnight]

Nightcop remember, cops who are never sceared and cops who are very sceared are a danger for other cops and for them selfs...They should get another job! I hope you never lose those butterflies...they will keep you always allert in any situation....It works for me!

[Ghetto Cop]

Old saying, but a true one- There are old cops and bold cops, but there are no old, bold cops.

When I lock someone up, I talk to them en route to jail. Granted I don't talk specific case related stuff due to Miranda type issues. Usually I ask them "day in the life of a scrote" type questions. When they don't have id and give me a bogus name and I get to there true name and they have a warrant (seperate topic in its own right). I ask them how many times they had been checked by the po-lice. They just love to talk. Its amazing to find ou what the average scrote thinks of the average officer. They think we are fairly lazy and stupid. Unfortunately some of us give him reason to think that way.
If the scrote had fought or ran from officers in the past. I ask him why he did that either in the past or this time. It is a great learning tool to pick their brains. Apply what you learn from them.
Remember Night Cop, we have all had people fight us when we are alone. It is a very uncomfortable, lonely feeling. What seperates us ,I'm including you, is that we go out on patrol again. We are all get those butterflies on every stop. If you didn't get those, I think everyone in the forum would suggest you look to another line of work. Instead you have a normal reaction. We have a really screwy job dont' you think?
Stay safe.

[Boss Hog]

As you know, the FBI keeps tabs on the number of cops killed each year. They did an interesting survey one year. They interviewed all the cop killers who were in jail (if they were willing to be interviewed) and asked them why they killed the officer. The one common theme was:

"Because I thought I could get away with it."

When I'm around a suspect, I always try to be kind AND confident. I've been shaking in my boots before, but I NEVER let the suspect know it. I hide my fear from him and make him think that:

"I've got everything under control. You make one wrong move, and (find out!!!!)"

When a suspect sees "supreme confidence" in an officer, he is less likely to challenge him. Of course, NOTHING is foolproof and it doesn't work all the time!

[Sparky]

Sounds like you're doing good.

Keep at it!! http://www.officer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[FLLawdog]

Glad things worked out for you and that you passed "phase 2" of your test. Now, just remember that feeling in your gut and don't forget it! Confidence is great, but some people take a little longer to get it than others.

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FLLawdog
"Never try to teach a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

[Wannabe2000]

***I must preface this by saying I am only 18 and not a cop yet.***

I think you may want some sort of martial arts training as a confidence builder. Think about martial arts that deal mainly with grappling, ground fighting, and wrestling stuff. Taking plain old karate wont be useful at all because karate only teachs you how to fight other people who are trying to use karate on you. Jeet kune do, is rather effective. It deals a lot with deflecting blows and then countering them with grapple type control techniques such as pain compliance. It can also teachs how to deflect a blow and get a choke hold on the subject. I got a book on it. I'll post the title and publisher when a remember it.

Any way thats just my thought.

[This message has been edited by Wannabe2000 (edited 11-13-2000).]

[Niteshift]

Wannabe:

We'll let this one stand, but please keep in mind, this area is only for LE officers. You can always put a thread about the same topic in the public areas.

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Niteshift-
Perseverate In Pugna