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Tucker6900
09-22-2008, 11:25 AM
This came up in the ask a cop section and I thought Id pose the question here.

If you were to pull me over in a neighborhood known for drugs deals, and found what looked like weed/pot and turned out to be oregano, would I be charged with anything other than stupidity?

Monty Ealerman
09-22-2008, 12:11 PM
Most guys don't want to use the fraud laws to protect the trade in real dope.

jakflak
09-22-2008, 12:22 PM
In my state if you represented it as drugs the penalty is the same.

Nothing says "future Darwin award winner" like getting arrested for pretending to have drugs. :)

nogginbuster24
09-22-2008, 12:29 PM
since you're not really selling drugs you can't be arrested for it I suppose.

Presence
09-22-2008, 12:31 PM
i would imagine there would be a lot more boneheads out there trying to make money off of baking soda and oregano if they wouldn't also get in trouble for selling it. not to mention getting their butts kicked by the addicts...

although, marijuana has a very distinctive odor, so methinks it would be a lot more difficult to trick someone buying pot than some powdery substance. who knows.

bigislander72
09-22-2008, 02:58 PM
In my state if you represented it as drugs the penalty is the same.

Nothing says "future Darwin award winner" like getting arrested for pretending to have drugs. :)


What defines "representing"? Attempted sale only or mere possesion in similar packaging? The latter I would take issue with. My mom has some containers of Hawaiian rock salt; it looks just like crystal meth.

DAL
09-22-2008, 03:04 PM
Your heading refers to selling. The question refers to possessing. There is a big difference.

mdyoung7
09-22-2008, 03:06 PM
In PA if it is packaged to look like dope, it is dope.....probly get plead down to a small offence.

texaschickeee
09-22-2008, 03:15 PM
Had a client about a year or so back, that had wax made to look like crack rocks. He was in the 'hood. He had it on his peson, and guess what?
He got charged as if it was real. He had also sold one to a guy not long before being arrested, and as he was cuffed the guy came up and beat the crap out of him. (I'm guessing the officer was busy writng a report or something, being the charming indiviaul that he was;)) and then got charged not only with poss, but poss, W/I to deleiver.

had 8 years probation plus all the extras that make probation fun. :D

jakflak
09-22-2008, 03:52 PM
What defines "representing"? Attempted sale only or mere possesion in similar packaging?

"(a) Except as provided in AS 11.73.050 , a person may not manufacture, deliver, or possess with intent to deliver, an imitation controlled substance.

The exception in 11.73.050 is for a doctor giving placebos.

ManInTan
09-22-2008, 04:05 PM
since you're not really selling drugs you can't be arrested for it I suppose.

Wrong... If you have oregeno in small baggies and I treat it like drugs regardless... Now if you have it in a spice container labeled "Oregeno" I will would be happy.

Whether some sissy prosecuter is scared to hold up the charges is out of my control but you will probably go straight to jail and not collect $200.

Smurfette_76
09-22-2008, 04:56 PM
If it's packaged and presented in the same manner as the narcotic it resembles, you'll be charged with the same crime as if it were.

Sabre
09-22-2008, 05:58 PM
MICHIGAN:

I'd arrest you for possession of a controlled-substance analogue. Penalties are the same as for the real thing.

Eclipse27
09-22-2008, 06:15 PM
It's a stupid idea, but I can't bring myself to agree with such a law.

So if the drug isn't even real, and won't do anything, you get charged the same just because it looks real??

Why are drugs illegal again?

katseiye
09-22-2008, 06:16 PM
If it's packaged and presented in the same manner as the narcotic it resembles, you'll be charged with the same crime as if it were.

+1 in Texas

stormz5192
09-22-2008, 06:25 PM
Same deal in NJ. We recently had a guy selling "Dutch Haze," which looks like neon green weed. He bought a pound off of http://www.legalbuds.com/index.html and was selling it for some ridiculous amount.

He got charged and convicted as if it was real weed. Funny thing is, people were begging him for this stuff.

jakflak
09-22-2008, 06:42 PM
It's a stupid idea, but I can't bring myself to agree with such a law.

Think about it like this: you buy your nice house in a nice neighborhood and let you kids play in the yard. All is well.

Then John Q. Scumbag shows up on the corner of your cul de sac and starts selling little baggies of something. You now have a steady traffic of seedy people through your neighborhood so thick your kids have to stay inside.

You call us. We contact John, who shows us he's selling bags of rock salt, claiming it's crack. We tell you sorry, no crime and leave while John laughs. You are stuck with a steady stream of crackheads and a crashing real estate value on your new house you're afraid of leaving.

Eclipse27
09-22-2008, 06:54 PM
so whats the difference if someone points a fake gun at a cop, and gets himself shot?

Need I really answer this? There's a huge difference.

Eclipse27
09-22-2008, 06:55 PM
Think about it like this: you buy your nice house in a nice neighborhood and let you kids play in the yard. All is well.

Then John Q. Scumbag shows up on the corner of your cul de sac and starts selling little baggies of something. You now have a steady traffic of seedy people through your neighborhood so thick your kids have to stay inside.

You call us. We contact John, who shows us he's selling bags of rock salt, claiming it's crack. We tell you sorry, no crime and leave while John laughs. You are stuck with a steady stream of crackheads and a crashing real estate value on your new house you're afraid of leaving.

How is John going to keep a steady business selling salt? Surely no one will be coming back for seconds.

I do agree it should be illegal, but I don't agree that it should be the same charges as though the drugs were real.

hobbsie711
09-22-2008, 06:59 PM
There may not be a local law against it but I'd be willing to bet if you try to sell it to the wrong crackhead it could put a page on your health record.

Hobbsie

Eclipse27
09-22-2008, 07:00 PM
There may not be a local law against it but I'd be willing to bet if you try to sell it to the wrong crackhead it could put a page on your health record.

Hobbsie

And that person would earn a Darwin Award.

pvtbuddie
09-22-2008, 07:05 PM
Think about it like this: you buy your nice house in a nice neighborhood and let you kids play in the yard. All is well.

Then John Q. Scumbag shows up on the corner of your cul de sac and starts selling little baggies of something. You now have a steady traffic of seedy people through your neighborhood so thick your kids have to stay inside.

You call us. We contact John, who shows us he's selling bags of rock salt, claiming it's crack. We tell you sorry, no crime and leave while John laughs. You are stuck with a steady stream of crackheads and a crashing real estate value on your new house you're afraid of leaving.

It's not the stream of seedy people that John Q. Slickscam is selling the little bags of rock salt to. It's your good-neighborhood kids.


.

texaschickeee
09-22-2008, 08:11 PM
How is John going to keep a steady business selling salt? Surely no one will be coming back for seconds.

I do agree it should be illegal, but I don't agree that it should be the same charges as though the drugs were real.

you would be shocked at how much time it takes for people to figure out the fake.

also note that if John Q. scumbag doing this, could cause s hoot out on said street and stray bullets have anyones name on them.

jakflak
09-22-2008, 09:35 PM
How is John going to keep a steady business selling salt? Surely no one will be coming back for seconds.

You obviously don't know many crack heads. They're not the brightest bulbs in the string. In college I watched a guy smoke a full bowl of oregano, thinking it was pot. He never stopped, he just said it was the worst pot he's ever had.


I do agree it should be illegal, but I don't agree that it should be the same charges as though the drugs were real.

It's not the same charge in my state.

bigislander72
09-22-2008, 09:36 PM
In PA if it is packaged to look like dope, it is dope.....probly get plead down to a small offence.

Sorry to go Bill Clinton here, but please define what is allowable "packaging". Natural sea salt collects here in the islands. This is the result of sea water collecting in crevices of the rocks that line the shore. New seawater fills these cracks without washing out the salt that dried previously. The result is rock salt that forms large crystals; the quality is uncomparable to the store bought stuff. If I collect some, I most likely am going to use a ziploc/sandwich baggie. So now I have a bag of stuff that looks just like a bag of crystal meth. I am not selling it as meth, so what is the problem with that?

Narco
09-22-2008, 11:56 PM
possessing or selling in GA it's "transactions in immitation controlled substances"

Smurfette_76
09-23-2008, 04:38 AM
Sorry to go Bill Clinton here, but please define what is allowable "packaging". Natural sea salt collects here in the islands. This is the result of sea water collecting in crevices of the rocks that line the shore. New seawater fills these cracks without washing out the salt that dried previously. The result is rock salt that forms large crystals; the quality is uncomparable to the store bought stuff. If I collect some, I most likely am going to use a ziploc/sandwich baggie. So now I have a bag of stuff that looks just like a bag of crystal meth. I am not selling it as meth, so what is the problem with that?

Does it look like a bindle? Are you carrying it as a narcotics? Are you under suspicion of narcotics? Do you have a prior history of narcotic abuse? Is your explanation of what it is feasible to the LEO?

It's not merely packaging. It's totality of the circumstances.

bigislander72
09-23-2008, 05:06 AM
Does it look like a bindle? Are you carrying it as a narcotics? Are you under suspicion of narcotics? Do you have a prior history of narcotic abuse? Is your explanation of what it is feasible to the LEO?

It's not merely packaging. It's totality of the circumstances.

Lets say for arguments sake all of the above except the second are true (define "carrying as"?). I am not sure what you meant by the third, do you mean under suspicion in a previous incident?

It's still rock salt, and I wasn't caught trying to sell it. So what's the problem? Seems too vague to me without an attempt to sell.

Smurfette_76
09-23-2008, 05:37 AM
If you are in my jurisdiction with something that in my training and experience appears to be a narcotics....you are carrying it as a narcotic, it is packaged as a narcotics and I'm dealing with you on suspicion of possession of the narcotic, it matter not one whit the test from the SBI show it's not. I can't explain that to you any more than what it is.

Perfect example...we had some boys last summer that thought they'd make a quick buck selling cocoa butter as crack. No wait. That one solved itself. One was killed over it. Refer back to my previous statement.

Monty Ealerman
09-23-2008, 01:02 PM
Does it look like a bindle? Are you carrying it as a narcotics? Are you under suspicion of narcotics? Do you have a prior history of narcotic abuse? Is your explanation of what it is feasible to the LEO?

It's not merely packaging. It's totality of the circumstances.As I said in another thread, we should stop using the word "narcotics" to mean "illegal drugs in general". It makes us look ignorant. Methadone is a narcotic, even if legally possessed. Methamphetamine is a stimulant, and NOT a narcotic, whether possessed legally or not. I agree with you about the context being important.

nobodyjr
09-23-2008, 01:06 PM
since you're not really selling drugs you can't be arrested for it I suppose.

In California you sure can. "bunk" for sales is still a sales case. And the thing is- it's a good way to get shot or beat up by the other dealers or users. And the users who won't snitch out anyone will snitch on bunk sellers without hesitation.

Smurfette_76
09-24-2008, 07:38 AM
As I said in another thread, we should stop using the word "narcotics" to mean "illegal drugs in general". It makes us look ignorant. Methadone is a narcotic, even if legally possessed. Methamphetamine is a stimulant, and NOT a narcotic, whether possessed legally or not. I agree with you about the context being important.


I wasn't using it to mean a narcotic in general. He was talking about rock salt and I stated how you carry it matters. It could be any narcotic, legal or not and the packaging still matters. IMHO, you're playing semantics...for what purpose I don't know.


Narcotic comes from the greek word for stupor or causing narcosis. Medically speaking you can use the word narcotic for a specific meaning; legality has another; common use a third. You want to split hairs go ahead. Being caught with meth and calling it a controlled substances, a designer drug or anything else as opposed to a narcotic matters very little.

Marijuana is not technically a narcotic. The Controlled Substance Act calls several things "narcotics" that aren't. Granted, we are referring to the Federal Government ;)

I can put up with people using the word "irregardless" in LE reports, then the commonly accepted use of "narcotic" is also accepted.

Monty Ealerman
09-24-2008, 03:35 PM
I wasn't using it to mean a narcotic in general.You were using the word "narcotics" to mean "illegal drugs in general". I think that shows a failure to distinguish what should be distinguished. I understand that trafficking in stimulants can be legally similar to trafficking in narcotics. The perp is still a dope dealer. But the dope is not all the same thing. Narcotics aren't stimulants, and stimulants aren't narcotics.

He was talking about rock salt and I stated how you carry it matters.I agree that how it's being packaged and represented makes a difference.

It could be any narcotic, legal or not and the packaging still matters.There you go again. Let me rephrase for you: It could be any substance, legally possessed or not, and the packaging still matters.

IMHO, you're playing semantics...for what purpose I don't know.Words have meanings. That helps us to communicate. Let's try to be honest in our use of words.


Narcotic comes from the greek word for stupor or causing narcosis.So narcotics have narcoleptic effects. :rolleyes: I guess that makes it obvious that it's not correct to call methamphetamine a narcotic. I think that's reason enough for us to stop calling it that.


Medically speaking you can use the word narcotic for a specific meaning; legality has another; common use a third.That's what I'm objecting to. We shouldn't lie about what something is in order to lump it together with something already deprecated. That makes us look at best ignorant or more likely dishonest.

You want to split hairs go ahead.I'm not splitting hairs. Even if two categories of substance are addressed similarly in law enforcement, we shouldn't call one by a name appropriate only for another that acts very differently.

Being caught with meth and calling it a controlled substances, a designer drug or anything else as opposed to a narcotic matters very little.Well maybe it doesn't matter much compared to the strength of the bars when the cell door slams, but I think it matters in discourse a great deal. Even if we feel free to call methamphetamine "meth", it isn't a narcotic. Why should we look ignorant or dishonest by calling it one? Participation in prior ignorance or dishonesty is not an excuse. Everyone else does it? I think we should stop doing it.


Marijuana is not technically a narcotic. The Controlled Substance Act calls several things "narcotics" that aren't. Granted, we are referring to the Federal Government ;)So you agree that things are being called narcotics even though they aren't. The legislature should not put lies in the law. We should stop calling thing narcotics when they aren't. Let's be honest.

I can put up with people using the word "irregardless" in LE reports, then the commonly accepted use of "narcotic" is also accepted.Well I don't accept either. I think such misuse of words makes us look stupid or ignorant, or in the latter case dishonest, especially when an attempt is being made to bring obvious misuse of a word into accepted usage.

Regards,

Monty

Smurfette_76
09-24-2008, 10:52 PM
I don't get your statement on dishonesty, which shows intent to deceive and defraud. That's a stretch and insulting all in one. I see that you've again taken to posting a long diatribe...do you do that for perceived superiority?

Please feel free to take your rant as far as you'd like. I personally think you're making a mountain out of a molehill; then again, you are certainly free to do so.

I'm well aware words have meanings and to state such appears to be merely for the benefit of looking at your own words. I could call someone an "*sshole" or "b*tch" and it doesn't mean they are actually the orafice that fecal matter comes out of nor a female dog. So, yes...words have their ORIGINAL intended meaning and then they have a meaning that society has given them and/or are accepted as the meaning.

Monty Ealerman
09-25-2008, 05:10 PM
I don't get your statement on dishonesty, which shows intent to deceive and defraud. That's a stretch and insulting all in one.Sorry you don't get it. Perhaps I can help you get it. It's dishonest to call cocaine or methamphetamine or other stimulants narcotics, when they are in fact NOT narcotics. It's being done in order to lump them together with other prohibited substances, as if they were the same thing, even though those doing the misnaming know they're not, and that's dishonest of them. Calling them all narcotics for legal purposes is "word stealing". Callling something dishonest when it is obviously and factually so, is truthful.

I see that you've again taken to posting a long diatribe...do you do that for perceived superiority?Calling something a diatribe does not address its legitimate content. I don't care about being perceived to be superior, nor do I suppose that I am so perceived. You spelled "perceived" precisely as correctly as I did.

Please feel free to take your rant as far as you'd like.It wasn't a rant, and this isn't either. I just want want us to stop misusing the word narcotics to mean illegal drugs in general.


I personally think you're making a mountain out of a molehill; then again, you are certainly free to do so.I think correct usage of words is worth preserving. Thanks for acknowledging my freedom.


I'm well aware words have meanings and to state such appears to be merely for the benefit of looking at your own words.I said that because you tried to dismiss my objection to the falsity of calling stimulants narcotics as "playing semantics".


I could call someone an "*sshole" or "b*tch" and it doesn't mean they are actually the orafice that fecal matter comes out of nor a female dog. So, yes...words have their ORIGINAL intended meaning and then they have a meaning that society has given them and/or are accepted as the meaning.I'm not objecting to slang meanings. I'm objecting to the misuse of the term "narcotics" in reference to all illegal drugs. That's not what the word means. It's a misuse of the term. The slang meanings of the terms you mentioned are not used as such in the law.

The legislature should stop lying.

Regards,

Monty

bigbrew
09-28-2008, 08:03 PM
In TN, the charge is poss/ S&D/ manuf. of a counterfeit substance. The penalties are the same as for the real deal. Actually delt with one of these cases about a month ago, the defendant's case has not been settled, but the judge set bond the same as he does for any other dope dealer....... sky high