Approved weapons list criteria

[Catch22]

When a department draws up it's approved weapons list what is the criteria it uses in choosing what goes on the list?
What criteria would you use?
If you had a weapon that you love and it is used overseas in a service capacity, lets say a CZ75, how do you convince the powers that be to authorize it? This is just out of curiosity of course ;)

Catch22

[John from Maryland]

Firearms instructors are concerned that authorized weapons are reliable and street-accurate. For better or worse, a weapon being approved by other law enforcement and military services is often an endorsement of the weapon. U.S. agencies are often preferred to foreign departments not because they're better, but because they're known. On the other hand, a weapon chosen by a highly respected foreign agency such as GSG9 will certainly have credibility.

Many instructors insist that all authorized weapons have a similiar manual of arms (e.g: DAO with no manual safety, DA/SA with a manual safety, and so forth). If the firearms staff has decided a particular manual of arms is the best for the agency, it may be difficult to change their minds (though not impossible; consider the FBI).

Instructors also tend to prefer weapons that they understand and for which there is reliable armorer support. One option might be to loan the CZ to your firearms instructors for a test drive.

Another reason to add a weapon to the authorized list might be a demonstrated need. If an officer's hands are too big or small to handle the authorized weapons, adding weapons with different size grips might be in order.

I hope this helps. I frankly don't have enough familiarity with the CZ75 to offer any opinions on the weapon itself. Be safe.

[shooter1201]

When I entered LEO work in 1989, I chose an S&W 3904(I have small hands). It wasn't on the 'approved' list, but the S&W 5904 WAS. All I had to do was demonstrate to the firearms instructor that it was 'mechanically identical' to the approved S&W 5904. Problem solved.

BTW...if your department approves the Browning HiPower or the Colt 1911, I see no problem in convincing them that the CZ75 is also suitable.

[Catch22]

Thank-you Gentlemen!

Actually the CZ portion was just a minor question, I didn't want to waste bandwith with a seperate topic.

Shooter, In reference to comparing the CZ to the BHP and 1911. Your'e missing one of the beauties of the 75 line. It can be had SA, DA/SA w/ safety, and DA/SA decocker.

You have given me a much better understanding of the thought processes that go into the selection process however. Sometimes it just seemed kind of arbitrary.

The reason I ask is that we are currently unarmed, but are on the road to becomming a commissioned department. We have already been discussing weapon lists to a small extent.

I have another related question for you John,

As I understand it your department has a fairly long history with SIGs. I am very happy to hear that the powers that be will spend the money for such a class weapon. You mention the reliability and manual of arms as being big factors. Several other manufactures make similar products at a lower cost. How did your department convince the budget people not to cut corners?

Thanks,
Catch22

[shooter1201]

You ONLY asked about the CZ75... ;) The CZ85 can also be had as a DAO. .22LR and .45ACP variants are also available.

[Sparky]

The following "Approved Weapons List" was developed after a great deal of time and reserach. Like any well crafted policy, it takes on a life of it's own as more and more agencies adopt it.

I hope this helps.

"The (agency name) recognizes the preferences and various skill levels of personnel as they pertain to choices in sidearms for duty use.

It is hereby the policy of (agency name) that, in order to be approved for duty use, the weapon must meet the following criteria:

1. Weapon must be manufacutred by Glock.

Any deviations from the above criteria will be rejected after a fair review by proper personnel."


:D :D :D :D :D :D

[SpecOpsWarrior]

I think somebody just signed an endorsement deal with Glock! :D

[John from Maryland]

Catch, we selected the SIGSauer because we felt it was the best weapon system for our needs. Our then newly-appointed chief liked the SIG and endorsed our decision. Add to this, Rockville has an excellent tax base with a comparatively small police department. The city could afford the money.

Despite Maryland being the American home of Beretta, many agencies issue SIGSauer pistols. Baltimore County PD and Gaithersburg City PD have just transitioned from the SIG 226 9mm to the SigPro 2340. Anne Arundel County SO also issues the 2340. Howard County PD and the University of Maryland Police issue SIG's, though I'm not sure what model. Ocean City PD issues the 2340 for uniform and the 239 for concealment.

All this said, I heard years after the transition that Beretta had nearly gotten the contract.

Be safe.

[Catch22]

Sparky,

I almost took your bait. I've learned two important lessons in my life.
1. Never tell a DeadHead that Jerry Garcia's singing sucks.
2. Never tell a Cop how I really feel about Glocks.

Both were very painful experiances.

Catch22

[Sparky]

If I might offer another suggestion, you may want to get your hands on a "Personally Owned - Department Approved GLOCK".

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[SGT Dave]

If they're looking at becoming certified, sworn officers, they will have a lot of other irons in the fire, and other worries. Get with someone who has a good "Personally Owned-Departmentally Approved" policy, and mimic it.

Remind them how much money they'll save at start up by going this route. ;)

[Barkley]

Question, Why does everyone like Glock so much?

Up here many outfits use Glock 22, 40.cal pistols. I own one (Glock 17, 9mm) and I think I like my Sig better.

Not a slam to Glock lovers just a question.

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Barkley ]

[Catch22]

Sgt Dave,

As far as other irons in the fire, "Guns on Campus" is the biggest obstacle.
Our Security Director just came from being a Police Chief from a small Department with a personally owned weapon policy, he just never heard of CZ.

Barkley,

Careful friend! That is a dangerous question followed by fighting words. When it comes to cops loving Glocks, Just accept it and let it go :).
I know what you mean though. Last time I intended to buy a Glock, I walked out of the shop with a P-220 instead.

Catch 22

[Sparky]

I'll put it this way, "Converts are the strongest Christians."

I, too, disliked the Glock. I learned how to shoot on a 1911 and, so, was a devout SA man.

I liked the clean, crisp trigger pull of the SA and, having smallish hands, I also liked handguns with metal magazines because the grip tended to be thinner. I didn't like the thick composite grips on double stack pistols, but the Sigs, while also being a double stack, were easier to handle. I also liked the Berretta.

Now...time came for Sparky to pick a new carry piece. After much deliberation I approached the subject anew from a pure comparison of abilities and features. Cost was not a factor.

I got the old legal pad out and wrote out a side-by-side of each of the major defensive pistols in the running. Sig, Beretta, Glock, HK, Hi-Power, and 1911.

I ended up with Glock.

I won't go over my list, but I'll challenge you to do the same. But you MUST be objective. Remain aware of your PREFERRENCES vs. OBJECTIVE evaluation.

If you PREFER a 1911 or such, then fine...I see no problem with that....if it tastes good, then throw it in the stew. But my belief is that the entire Glock lineup has many advantages that others do not.

I'd still LOVE a Sig...but I don't NEED one. The pistol which best met my NEEDS was the Glock.

[JKT]

I agree with Sparky on the comparison.

I have always liked the Glock line. Although a little "blocky", the first time I fired a Glock 21 (when they first came out-dating myself, I know) I kept a 2" group out to 25 yards. That impressed me quite a bit, having never handled the weapon before.

Years later, I had the opportunity to attend a Glock Armorer's School. The simple, yet extremely functional design REALLY impressed me.

I own 1911's and am issued a Sig P226 (.357Sig), but don't own a Glock (yet), but have talked numerous co-workers into the purchase of them. (mostly because of the price-most can't afford $600+ for a Sig or an HK)Of course, I then had to TRAIN them on the manual of arms and techniques, but I enjoy that part. :D (I get to shoot them, too)

As a Firearms Instructor, I need to be familiar with everything our Officers carry, to be effective.

I really, really like the Glocks.

BTW, our road Deputies, Tactical Team and Firearms Instructors are all that are issued weapons presently. Everyone else has to purchase their own approved weapon. The "Approved Weapons List" contains Glock, Sig, Colt, H&K, S&W, Ruger, Taurus, Para Ordnance, etc. Basically any quality, reliable weapon can be approved on a case by case basis.

Be safe.

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: JKT ]